You farang know too much

[mrentoul]

but I really can't stand the westerners who can speak Thai well, and insist on addressing other westerners in Thai and only Thai.

Yes, isn't that strange? I came across that the other day, and was shocked. A woman called for someone at work. I answered the phone and she spoke in Thai but I could tell it was not her first language.

I replied in the same language but really wanted to switch to English. I am sure she could tell I was not a Thai, so why the pretense? It's just possible she could not speak English, but I doubt it.

The Spanish guy I refer to above speaks to me in English. I really could not stomach a conversation in Thai with a non-Thai, unless his Thai was terrific (and in most cases it would never be that good). What a farce!

If I met that type in Bangkok, the type of westerner who likes to show off his skills in Thai, I would ignore him, tell him he was a jerk, or carry on speaking in English. How can such types be sure other westerners understand them anyway? The whole thing sounds odd.

Personally when I approach thais I speak Thai, first they don't try to overcharge (overcharging tourists is common practice all over the world) , and also for a form of respect.

Until you know whether the person wants to speak any other language, I should think it's common sense to use Thai (no offence).

[markt]

Yeah, maybe i am.

But over the years there have been a lot of instances that have made me like it.

In Mike shopping mall  i saw a sign saying "Two for the price of one",  it was written in Thai.

So i thought that's a good deal.   When i got to the checkout the girl charged me fo two.

When i pointed to the sign a Thai woman behind me in the queue said "Oh Oh, arn Thai dai".

The cashier looked over at the supervisor and he nodded his head.

I've encountered situations like this many times, so what about all those farangs who don't know Thai, for them to be ripped off in ignorance is OK?

I look upon that kind of situation above as a little victory for all those farangs who have been shafted.

Of course i cannot win in their country but a small success like that is always nice.

[mrentoul]

I look upon that kind of situation above as a little victory for all those farangs who have been shafted.

Of course i cannot win in their country but a small success like that is always nice.

You sound in a bad way. A little break offshore might do you good.

Still, you might get ripped off there as well.

[buasaard]

Mike shopping mall is thai or "farang" managed?

Your story sounds like a famous fast food chain in USA that claimed "animal fat free" and then an indian guy discovered that french fries were fried with beef fat and sued the fast food.

I don't mean thais are the best people in the world as they claim, only they are not the worst as seems when reading this forum.

[markt]

That's why i like Penang,  i can't speak Malaysian.

[markt]

buasaard,  of course Thais are not the worst, but this is a Thai-based forum.

[buasaard]

Sorry markt, I didn't mean to be hard with you.

If I can give you an advice, try to avoid these situations that make your stay in Thailand unpleasant, for instance speak thai first, so they know they can't cheat you, so that you don't get angry. And I assure you they do the same with my thai wife (maybe the say that the promotion is expired).

When in Rome do as the Romans do.

P.S. easy for me.. I'm Roman

:laugh:

Cheers markt

[JemJem]

Hello.

I have read all the posts in this thread with interest.

Having lived here on and off for about seven years, let me write a few things on this issue :

*In my first couple of years here,  I have tried very hard to learn the language (speaking, understanding and some reading). I have managed to do quite well...well, sort of to an intermediate to upper intermediate level but unfortunately, later on, my laziness got the better of me so I have never really made it to advanced level....in fact I guess I am down to intermediate level rather than upper intermediate now.

*Anyway....Several times, I have thought of pretending not to understand/speak any Thai and see what locals say about me or say about general stuff in front of me. However, I have done that very very few times and never with friends, potential friends or colleagues. I feel that this is not really nice and I feel uneasy and awkward doing that. However, I don't really blame people who do that in CERTAIN situations (eg. encounters with the traffic police.)

*I agree with the people that if a Thai speaks good English, it is usually better to stick to speaking in English because most of such Thais tend to be upset when a foreigner insists on speaking in Thai when the foreigner's Thai is not as good as the Thai's English.

*Generally speaking, I would say 'Practice using your Thai as much as possible, especially in shopping malls, pubs, buses, markets, etc).

*As for locals thinking 'You know too much', etc., I have to say I don't like this attitude at all.....if a foreigner is in my country and if I see that he/she mastered my language and knows a lot about the culture, customs, etc, I wouldn't think negatively of him/her at all.....on the contrary, I would appreciate it. For people who have the 'Hey.....this foreigner knows too much attitude', I'm afraid I would label them somewhat racist.

*Regarding the negative stuff that 'buasaard' has received, I really feel sympathy for him....I don't know why some people are discriminatory towards the disabled. It is a terribly bad attitude to have.

*Finally, for what 'markt' has written regarding the situation at a shopping mall and where he got the given deal only after the checkout girl heard him speak Thai, I would say that this is one of the examples of price discrimination that most of us foreigners are faced with in this country. I am willing to argue with anyone who claims that this is not racism but merely people trying to take advantage of you. Okay....it is true that people try to load their wallets seeing that you are a foreigner but this itself is racism.....they don't do it to a Thai and also an Asian non-Thai person might get away in such situations, especially if he/she speks some Thai...in many cases, it is the color of one's skin and the appearance that gets the 'higher rate'. It is a shame that the government here does not do anything about the overcharging practice, at least at at 'public' places, such as temples, museums, parks, etc. Okay...this last issue should actually be in another thread...I got carried away....sorry about this

Regards to all.

Jem

[mrentoul]

it is true that people try to load their wallets seeing that you are a foreigner but this itself is racism

It's not racism. That's way too heavy a word. It could be ''sharp business practices'', or simply dual-pricing.

Westerners earn more. Why should they pay the same? This argument really belongs to another thread, but let me put it like this: are you in favour of rich and poor people paying the same for health care, if health care dollars are limited?

If rich people were asked to pay a bit more so health care could improve, isn't that a good thing?

I suspect some services would barely break even if everyone was charged Thai rates. Better to ask westerners to pay more and get better service overall.

Even if you don't get better service, I am sure you could afford it. Even double what a Thai is asked to pay might not be much. And dual pricing is rarely strictly enforced (in my experience).

Exceptions? Of course. I'd object to paying double to see the latest Teminator film, esp if I thought it was crap. A product like that is mass-produced and there's no local content or input.

[Boo]

what about if you are a westerner earning thai baht & not dollars as you stated. Is that still fair?

[mrentoul]

I am one such westerner.

Most westerners earn more, even in Thai baht. Of course it's fair.

Let's say you're also earning baht. Even if you're one of those miserable teacher types who is always comlaining about his lot, how can you possibly compare what you're getting with the 6000-10,000 baht a month which the average Thai is getting?

I'm being generous. Some Thais don't get that much. I work not 20m from Thais who put in longer hours than I do for half the pay. That's not fair (but that's also another thread. I'll stop there).

[Boo]

I have a potential job offer that will start at the end of this year, if it comes about. my pay will be approx 10,000 baht per month. I am happy to take that job as it means I can stay with my boyfriend full time rather than keep coming back to the UK to work so that I can pay for my personal expenses.

My boyfriend can earn that (sometimes more) in a day in high season. how is it fair that I pay 3 sometimes 4 times more than him for anything, when he obviously has a higher earning capacity than me in Thailand???

Your argument is obviously based on your own circumstance, not everyone can earn double that of a thai co worker, for less hours & yes sometimes farang do earn more than thais, but this is usually because they are bringing something to the job that thai's cannot, as I believe is the law.

In the UK I would expect to get paid more than someone with less experience & knowledge than me so why shouldn't farang expect more if they are bringing the same to a job that a thai could not? But not everyone is so lucky & any kind of double standards is illigal (& Rascist) in most other countries & as long as farang in Thailand keep putting up with it, it will always be a bone of contention.

Imagine a black man buying something in America that a white man paid half price for. I think this would be called rascism, so why not in the circumstances of a thai & a foreigner?

If I am overcharged, I don't buy, if I feel I am being ripped off, I walk away, my boyfriend doesn't allow me to be overcharged, so why should I?

We are going to have to agree to disagree because not everyone has the luxury of a well paid job in Thailand.

[mrentoul]

Your argument is obviously based on your own circumstance, not everyone can earn double that of a thai co worker, for less hours & yes sometimes farang do earn more than thais, but this is usually because they are bringing something to the job that thai's cannot, as I believe is the law.

We are going to have to disagree. First, I don't have ''the luxury of a well-paid job in Thailand'', as you put it. It's better than 10,000 baht a month, but it's not a fortune.

Few westerners here earn less than their Thai boyfriends and girlfriends, and surely you know as much. You're in a minority in that respect, but in the majority (I suspect) in thinking you're a victim of ''racism''.

The factors that influence what someone gets paid are complex and historical.

On my first day I recall the people here at work discussing the relativity between what a westerner gets and what a Thai should get for very similar work.

These Thai staff, who wanted a pay rise, were translators and writers skilled in English and Thai. The westerners who work here are native speakers, hence the premium we command in wages.

But I would argue that these particular colleagues of mine, who admittedly work in a specialist field, are contributing more to the product but getting paid much less.

The reason? They're Thai, and have never been paid as much. That's an historical/cultural factor which doesn't fathom reason. It's just the way it is.

Next time you moan about being charged double to get into an animal park or whatever, you might like to think about that.

Thais get a pittance of the average westerner's wage, and often for no good reason. It's what the market will bear.

The market will also bear dual-pricing, so the time being you'll have to put up with it,  ''racism'' or no.

[Boo]

I think I stated in my last post, that I don't put up with it.

& if you had read the rest of my post, you would have seen that I was making a valid point about rascism, not moaning about it, just stating fact.

The more that westerners accept this practice the more it will go on, ok,the average person coming to LOS for 2 weeks will have no problem paying more than the locals, but when we live here, the difference between 20 baht & 100 baht becomes relevant. Maybe not to you but to me & others, it does.

[mrentoul]

Maybe not to you but to me & others, it does

I am well aware I am in a minority. Most westerners rail against dual pricing (your ''racism''), no matter how extravagantly they get paid.

Just how much do you know about how the average Thai works and what he gets paid? How could you not feel something for people who put in 12-18 hour days only to emerge with a pittance? Surely it's not just about you, you, you?

It's not all bad. In my experience employers treat their Thai employees more kindly than in the West. It's not welfare, but it helps make up for the meagre wages they get paid. I am painting a stark picture for the sake of making a point.

However, I don't think we're on the same track so I might save that one for another day.

[mrentoul]

The more that westerners accept this practice the more it will go on,

You seem to be suggesting westerners band together and fight the good fight to bring that animal park charge down from 120 baht to 100 baht.

At the risk of sounding provocative, I am going to suggest you use your political nous. How do you think that campaign would go down with the local population (or the people who set the park charges)?

Let me spell it out: ''Hey, look I know I get paid B40,000-60,000 baht a month (for the sake of argument), more than four times what you get, but I'm really cut up abut having to pay B120 baht to get in to see the animals when you Thais are paying B100.

''I demand you lower the charge to B100 for everybody and end this overt racism!''

Really convincing.

[Boo]

Your point seems to be that it is acceptable to be charged double because we are of a different nationality. My point is that it is not. Regardless of the economic or social situation in a country, this practice is wrong & should be outlawed.

I am well aware of the earning capacity of the average Thai. I have a young thai man living in our shop (we have a bedroom & bathroom there)  who works in a local bar, 7 days a week for 12hours a day earning 1,500 baht per month.

He lives for free in exchange for showing the people around that someone stays there.  so I think it's not all about me, me me.

But to say that because I am white I should pay more IS rascist, & if you can't see that then you are buying into the governments hype that they are doing you a favour by letting you stay.

Thailand thinks that it is a developing country with asparations to the 1st world but until the corruption, ignorance & double standard are cleared up it will never meet it's full potential.

[Boo]

yes, maybe you should try that next time you go to the animal park. (?)

There is no need to spell anything out to me, thank you. I don't think a political campaign is nessecary, if enough westerers stopped paying, they would notice a decrease in the revenue & then maybe would ask themselves why. It is economics 101, no westerners paying inflated prices, no profits.

[mrentoul]

There is some good stuff in your post which gives us both a chance to step back and catch breath.

I have a young thai man living in our shop (we have a bedroom & bathroom there)  who works in a local bar, 7 days a week for 12hours a day earning 1,500 baht per month.

so I think it's not all about me, me me.

Fair enough.

I know of such stories myself, of course. One of my roommates is in a similar situation. I didn't mention his story, or the other bad ones I've heard. I don't want to come across as a bleeding heart.

But to say that because I am white I should pay more IS rascist, & if you can't see that then you are buying into the governments hype that they are doing you a favour by letting you stay.

First, I never said that because you are white you should pay more. You've said that twice in your post, and you're quite wrong.

It's not your skin colour, it's how much you earn (and in most cases, westerners earn more).

However, I do agree the government seems to think it is doing us all a great favour by letting us stay here. That's another thread, I suspect!

Thailand thinks that it is a developing country with asparations to the 1st world but until the corruption, ignorance & double standard are cleared up it will never meet it's full potential.  

I have read similar stuff before. Maybe I'll get angry about this stuff myself one day, but I can't at the moment.

If Thailand has aspirations to join the First World, then that's only natural and desirable. And if corruption and double standards hold back its progress, then it will have to address those things.

But beyond that I find it hard to take personally. It's not my business.

I do get worked up about how little Thais get paid, and how little the government does about it. But once again I think I am powerless to do anything.

[dazdaz]

I have to agree with Boo on this, to be ripped off in principle is just and simply wrong.  It does'nt matter if your a USD $$$ millionaire, or poor.

There is also the unfair concept that every expat and foreigner is rich.  This is not always the case.  Perhaps we should conduct a Thai expat salary survey to gain an insight into this.  Take the TEFL salaries as an example.  In fact we could go into a definition of rich, but I don't think it has any bearning at the moment.  To be taken advantage of is wrong.

To me, the problem is that this has been accepted practise for far too long, and people's defences have been worn away over the years. That's how I view it.

>''I demand you lower the charge to B100 for everybody and end this overt racism!''

This approach would be bad face in Thailand and considered rude, and I doubt would make any change.  In fact it's the worst approach to take.  I know your giving an example, I think this comes back to Eastern and Western philosophical differences.

A campaign of anti-racism should be considered though, because i've seen this first hand against myself in the country in which I was born, so can understand it quite well.  

This may be considered flame-bait, but it's not intended to be so, I wonder if the price hike in visa charges is along the same lines as our discussion.

I would like to see more Thai people on this board, so we can learn more about the issues from their perspective.

Regards

[mrentoul]

yes, maybe you should try that next time you go to the animal park. (?)

You do your argument no favours with such remarks. Why would I do such a thing?

It's your position, not mine. And your pained response suggests you realise exactly how stupid and mean you would sound.

[mrentoul]

To Dazdaz: I did not argue all westerners were rich. They tend to earn much more, that's all.

I would like to see more Thai people on this board, so we can learn more about the issues from their perspective.

I agree. I suspect we'd find some who agreed with Boo that dual-pricing was wrong.

That wouldn't surprise me. I've seen Thais put up with the most iniquitous treatment at the hands of employers and their own government, without complaint. At the same time I have seen Thais jump to the defence of a westerner if he thinks he is being treated wrongly.

>''I demand you lower the charge to B100 for everybody and end this overt racism!''

This approach would be bad face in Thailand and considered rude, and I doubt would make any change.

Of course. I did not suggest it in any seriousness (if there's such a word).

[Boo]

mrrentoul, I was referring to my daily life with regards to overcharging, I do not go to animal parks or tourist attactions so would not know how much it would cost.

I would not sound mean or stupid, as you say, because i would never go into a place that pratices this.  I am trying to be part of the solution by not going or accepting this as standard.

Just to be pedantic

racism: from the merriam-websters colligate thesarus;

Text: racial prejudice or discrimination

Related Word: discrimination, prejudice; illiberality, unfairness; bias, one-sidedness, partiality

[singa-traz]

mrrentoul, I was referring to my daily life with regards to overcharging, I do not go to animal parks or tourist attactions so would not know how much it would cost.

Boo, where do you get overcharge on a daily basis ?

- When you take the BTS ?

- When you order your Kao Pad ?

- When you take a Taxi ?

- When you take the Bus ?

- When you go shopping in Central ?

- When you go to see a movie ?

- When you eat in a restaurant ?

If we know the normal price of the goods or services that we are buying, how we can get overcharged, without our consent ... ???

[buasaard]

Good one Singatraz.

The dual pricing infact is mainly for tourism related services. In your everyday life you don't get overcharged.

And in another way we can call the minor price the Thais pay for certain services as a "fringe benefit".

[mrentoul]

Great question. How do people get overcharged, and by using simple common-sense, could people avoid it?

I raised the animal park example because someone here mentioned it a few months ago, and because I have been to one or two parks/farms where westerners were nominally charged more.

I say nominally because in both cases, when my Thai friends asked about it, they waived the higher charge for the westerner (me).

That's one kind of overcharging, where they post a sign at the door saying westerners and tourists will be asked to pay more.

The other kind is more insidious, where you get no warning.

Here I am thinking of someone in the market or on the footpath in Silom who will ask a tourist to pay more - but  where you can of course haggle, and where over-charging might but won't necessarily occur (up to the stall-owner).

In neither case is over-charging bound to occur. Personally I doubt whether I've ever been over-charged for the items on Singa-traz's list, which was as follows:

When you take the BTS ?

- When you order your Kao Pad ?

- When you take a Taxi ?

- When you take the Bus ?

- When you go shopping in Central ?

- When you go to see a movie ?

- When you eat in a restaurant ?

That makes me wonder: just how prevalent is over-charging or dual-pricing? Not very, I would say.

[mrentoul]

The dual pricing infact is mainly for tourism related services. In your everyday life you don't get overcharged.

Precisely. Boo was emphasising the fact a moment ago that she doesn't go to tourist haunts. So that's animal farms scratched off the list.

This is what she said:

mrrentoul, I was referring to my daily life with regards to overcharging, I do not go to animal parks or tourist attactions so would not know how much it would cost.

If it's part of your ''daily life'', just where do you get overcharged?

[Boo]

I live in a high density tourist area where overcharging happens everyday, maybe in bangkok it is different but in samui it happens.

We do not have a cinema, bus service or shopping mall but if I go to the market alone I get charged more for the produce that I buy as apposed to my boyfriend, this could be poor mathamatics but the past regularity make me think this is not the case.

When i have been out with farang friends to certain bars to drink we pay westerner prices but if I go with thais we pay a lower price or the inflated bill is handed straight to me(!)

Songtaews are 5 baht for thais from my house to the main town where our business is but 25 baht for me (this is a 5x increase, which considering I have to make the journey sometimes 4 times a day, does make a point, 20 baht over 200 baht) .

There are other situations where I have experienced & thos I have mentioned are just a few.

The only place I have never had to pay more than a thai is in Tesco Lotus so that is now where most of our shopping is done.

For other daily items, I now, after 5 years have found the places where the owners know me & do not overcharge, the bars are only frequented if a birthday party etc is being held there, meter taxis are no longer taken & I always try to get a lift with my b/f but sometimes it's not possible,so I have to pay the inflated songtaew price.  But still I find new places that surprise me with this outdated tradition.

But as I said earlier, I am trying, in my own small way, to make my stand & not use these services as I find them unfair.

[mrentoul]

I live in a high density tourist area where overcharging happens everyday, maybe in bangkok it is different but in samui it happens.

It seems to be the tourism factor, as someone mentioned above. You live in a tourist area so you are treated (exploited?) like one.

If you are a westerner people tend to assume you're a tourist. No one walks around with a sign saying: ''Hey - I live here!'', so it's hard to avoid, unless you make a point of avoiding those bars and other places where you know you will be over-charged.

I can understand how you might be charged more for produce at a market, though it has not happened to me.

I have never heard of a group being charged ''westerner'' prices in a bar when at the table right next to that group people are being charged less for the same brand of beer or whatever.

I have never heard of some pasengers being charged more on a minibus (song taew): I thought five baht was so common it was almost universal.

But then I do not live in a tourist area.

Knowing how much the going rate is for some items could help, but no one wants to have to argue over pricing every time she steps outdoors. You could try being more assertive, but then I imagine you've tried that are are sick of it.

I understand your experience may have been unpleasant, even intimidating. However, I am not for a moment going to concede the point that exploiting tourists is the same as ''racism''. That sounds too heavy and bitter - and there are enough bitter westerners out there as it is.

It's not skin colour. it could just as easily be the loud shirts that tourists wear. Ultimately it's about money. Local people know tourists have little local knowledge about pricing, and some take advantage.

This kind of exploitation is not confined to tourists in any case. I read a story the other day about a bunch of Thais who took a taxi. They were on a trip to a different province and didn't know how far it would be or how much to pay. The driver took 150 baht off each of them, and they fell asleep in the cab.

This particular province had a river running through it. When the driver woke them, the travellers saw a river and they thought they had arrived.

The driver took off. Later they found they had never left Bangkok: the river was the Chao Praya.

[chuang]

Hi there, so much have been said for over-charging and dual-pricing. Could it be that the Thais pay less to visit animal parks because the fees are being subsidised by their

government.

Likewise Thais pay only 30 baht (subsidised) for hospital treatment, I don't think foreigners pay the same amount.

Over-pricing, ask for the prices first before you buy or for services rendered, be it at market places or songtaews.

If you feel that you are being over-priced, go somewhere else.

At the Majors Cineplex in Chiangmai, a movie ticket costs 100 baht except on Tuesday it costs 70 baht, foreginers also pay

70 baht on this particular day...