Death Of Ones Thai Wife In Thailand?

[YangYaiEric]

Hello.

I know this topic maybe somewhat morbid to discuss, and we would much rather avoid it, BUT, death comes to us all eventually. With this thought in mind, I was wondering what the legal status of a Farang would be if his Thai wife were to die before him? Lets say the Farang husband is already settled in Thailand on, lets say, a Retirement Visa. What would his status be should his Thai wife die before him? Will he be obliged to leave Thailand, or could he stay on indefinitely with his Thai family in Thailand. What about properties/land/houses that are all in the wifes name. Where does the husband stand in relation to these?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hello.

I know this topic maybe somewhat morbid to discuss, and we would much rather avoid it, BUT, death comes to us all eventually. With this thought in mind, I was wondering what the legal status of a Farang would be if his Thai wife were to die before him? Lets say the Farang husband is already settled in Thailand on, lets say, a Retirement Visa. What would his status be should his Thai wife die before him? Will he be obliged to leave Thailand, or could he stay on indefinitely with his Thai family in Thailand. What about properties/land/houses that are all in the wifes name. Where does the husband stand in relation to these?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

If on a financially compliant retirement visa you would just carry on on the same basis. If you are on a supporting a Thai wife type visa, you would need to go for a retirement visa to remain here.

[sbk]

Perhaps better in the Visa forum?

Curious, if the Thai spouse dies before the foreign partner is old enough for a retirement visa, then what? I've heard that the foreign spouse must then get a new visa as the support (supported by in my case) Thai spouse visa is no longer valid. But how long do you get and what kind of visa are you supposed to go for if you aren't old enough? Same goes with divorce I imagine. I recall a few members asking about a similar problem in the past.

[lopburi3]

I believe you have to leave in that case and it (could) probably be handled under 8/10/12 as below - but there is a clause 7.25 that allows up to 90 days extension for litigation/judicial proceedings so that could likely be used to settle estate. I suspect it would more likely be handled at next renewal time that you no longer meet requirements and must leave in 7 days.

8. If the applicant does not fully meet the qualifications as prescribed by this Order, he/she is

allowed further stay in Thailand to prepare for departure, but not exceeding 7 days from the

expiration of the permission.

9. Even though the applicant may fully meet the qualifications as prescribed by this Order, if

there is reason to believe that it is unsuitable to permit the alien to stay in the Kingdom, the

application in question shall be submitted to the Commissioner of the Immigration Bureau

or competent official for a rejection order.

10. If an applicant who appeared to have the full qualifications as prescribed by this Order has

been permitted to stay in Thailand but is later found to be lacking in qualifications, the case

shall be submitted to the Commissioner of the Immigration Bureau for a revocation order.

11. In the case of investment or any other activity related thereto under the Investment

Promotion Act, due consideration shall be based on the letter of confirmation and the

approved period granted by the Board of Investment or any other investment committee.

12. Other cases not stipulated herein shall be submitted to the Commissioner of the Immigration

Bureau or competent official for decision on a case-by-case basis.

[JohnC]

One of the other anomalies of the Thai system is that a farang spouse can inherit the property of his/her deceased spouse! So where that would leave you in regards to a visa I have no idea!

Edited November 10, 2007 by JohnC

[tijnebijn]

If you are at a similar age , and lets say you go old together until 70 or 80 , and the misses dies ,

been married for 50 years or so , would be strange to change to a retirement visa which is not there is it ?

Maybe they do easy with very elderly not ?

One thing comes to mind that when having children together , the visa thing will

not give a headache ( when you are over 50 ) , switch it to dependant on child .

It is an interesting and important topic though !

[astral]

One thing comes to mind that when having children together , the visa thing will

not give a headache ( when you are over 50 ) , switch it to dependant on child .

This is a practical solution, provided the child is old enough.

A friend of mine, American, relies on support from her daughter, Thai-American,

for her visa extensions.

She is also able to get a job and work permit as a teacher.

[sbk]

One of the other anomalies of the Thai system is that a farang spouse can inherit the property of his/her deceased spouse! So where that would leave you in regards to a visa I have no idea!

You can inherit but once again you cannot own land. So, you can apply to the Interior Minister to inherit the land (don't know if anyone has actually gotten it tho) or you have one year to sell the land.

[Badbanker]

One of the other anomalies of the Thai system is that a farang spouse can inherit the property of his/her deceased spouse! So where that would leave you in regards to a visa I have no idea!

You can inherit but once again you cannot own land. So, you can apply to the Interior Minister to inherit the land (don't know if anyone has actually gotten it tho) or you have one year to sell the land.

Please be aware if this situation happens to anyone that all your wifes property CAN be taken by her next of kin and you get nothing.   I know of a case like this!

Do not give the death cerficate of your spouse to your wife family FOR ANY REASON what so ever as they can then sell the house you live in legally.

There is a great deal to this issue but get a real good lawyer or you CAN be left out in the SERIOUS cold

Bandbanker

[apetley]

A well written last will and testament would be in order too detailing the spouses wishes for his/her property.

[YangYaiEric]

One of the other anomalies of the Thai system is that a farang spouse can inherit the property of his/her deceased spouse! So where that would leave you in regards to a visa I have no idea!

You can inherit but once again you cannot own land. So, you can apply to the Interior Minister to inherit the land (don't know if anyone has actually gotten it tho) or you have one year to sell the land.

Please be aware if this situation happens to anyone that all your wifes property CAN be taken by her next of kin and you get nothing. I know of a case like this!

Do not give the death cerficate of your spouse to your wife family FOR ANY REASON what so ever as they can then sell the house you live in legally.

There is a great deal to this issue but get a real good lawyer or you CAN be left out in the SERIOUS cold

Bandbanker

Thank you badBanker, for your comments. I certainly wasn't aware of this possibility happening!

I'm sure that I'm not alone in committing quite a substantial portion of my assets to my new life in Thailand. I would hate to be in a position whereby I found myself losing it all to my wife's Thai next-of-kin.

I think that a well written Last Will & Testament is a MUST for all Farangs married to a Thai spouse, as mentioned by another poster.

Thanks!

[desktop]

My understanding is that upon your Thai wife's demise her family inherits 1/2 of her property. You, the other half. This can be changed by a proper will. If your house is owned by your wife and you lease, have an addendum to the lease where her heirs have to honor the lease.

[lopburi3]

Source: http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/Publicati..._foreigners.pdf

If there is no will, statutory heirs will inherit in the following order:

• children, parents and spouse of the deceased – equal shares.

• parents and spouse of the deceased – spouse receives half.

• full brothers, full sisters – spouse of the deceased receives half.

• half-brothers, half-sisters – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• grandfathers, grandmothers – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• uncles, aunts – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• none of the above – spouse of the deceased receives all.

If an heir in a higher order exists, heirs in the lower orders have no rights at a

[YangYaiEric]

Source: http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/Publicati..._foreigners.pdf

If there is no will, statutory heirs will inherit in the following order:

• children, parents and spouse of the deceased – equal shares.

• parents and spouse of the deceased – spouse receives half.

• full brothers, full sisters – spouse of the deceased receives half.

• half-brothers, half-sisters – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• grandfathers, grandmothers – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• uncles, aunts – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• none of the above – spouse of the deceased receives all.

If an heir in a higher order exists, heirs in the lower orders have no rights at a

Very many thanks, lopburi3, for the info. and the URL link. I'm sure many other TV member will find it interesting!

[victor15]

A well written last will and testament would be in order too detailing the spouses wishes for his/her property.

The will should be in Thai, after wife dies you have seven days to change visa if you live here under Thai family visa you will have to change to retirement visa, if you don't have THB 800,000 but have child from marriage and over 50 years old go for live/supported by child.

[songhklasid]

I built a house last year for retirement in 5 years time, my wife of 19 years, we are same age, in her village ,east of chiang-mai,I approached same subject with her, as we have a 11 year old son, Understand I've been visiting village for 20 years,my wife has drafted a letter to be opened on her demise, that myself & son can live as we like, witness by village headman , best friend, & registered @ police station,her parents are deceased, only 1 living brother,I still have house in australia,& plan to live between the 2 , depending on seasons. I only hope all goes to plan if unfortunately that situation happens.

regards bungalowbill.

[RubbaJohnny]

<br />One of the other anomalies of the Thai system is that a farang spouse can inherit the property of his/her deceased spouse! So where that would leave you in regards to a visa I have no idea!<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Dear John

that's very interesting news to me

what is your source lawyer or hearsay

i had been told that our house and land would go to partners family as i am not Thai and my only hope was to get a 30 year lease tho even this allows thenm to sell/mortgage the land?

all and any any info gratefully received

please reply direct

we were looking at re0locating as my income will plummet at 65 and no longer leave 800k or 66k per month they require

[shaunoro]

Hi Desktop,

your right.

When my Thai wife died unexpectedly, her mother got 50% from our joint bank account.

At the time we were living in rented accomadation and no kids.

I went to immigration ar Sanam Plu and was informed that when my current one year O visa expires,that i would have to get tourist visas or a new wife.

All done with a smile and polite.

That was 10 years ago .

[abdulrahman]

A will must be made in the form prescribed by law.

(cite)

Can anyone explain?Is a lawyer needed?

Txs

[adamchiangmai]

i herited the house, which was on her name, and gave it to my son, who is thai-citizen.

i have been to court to get a document which proves that i am the manager of the house, because my son was 10 years at this time.

as i understand, as a widower you have the same status as married.

i get a one year extension for family support reason and have to show 400 k.

there was no will or something else, just regular thai marriage certification.

[old wanderer]

Gentlemen I am going to have to YELL at some of you.....

Here you are discussing your future, your life savings, and happiness, yet I see not one reply that I would bet my life assets on.

My wife and I hold more than 10 properties in Thailand, we have no children and are not likely to have any.

Some years ago I was made aware of a story of another gentleman that was happily married until his Thai wife got on a motorbike to go to a ATM machine, where upon returning home was struck by a truck, robbed and killed. His adopted Thai daughter (22 YO) that he had supported for 15 years got his home. Within 1 yr he was told to move as she wanted to sell the house, and travel with her Thai boyfriend. There was absolutely nothing he could do. Everything was lost, including the joint bank account.

Get an attorney, do a USUFRUCT, do a will.

Quit being so dam_n keanyouw.

On every piece of property my wife owns, should she die, I have an absolute right to use it as I please until the day I die. I can rent it, lease it, live in it, ignore it....but it is my choice. As heir to each and every piece I can also legally sell it. After 11 years of marriage, the chance of divorce is slight, but even than I maintain the same rights. If we wish to sell some property, I have a right to resend my Usufruct.

Sunbelt did a great job of setting this up for me.

[Arkady]

A will must be made in the form prescribed by law.

(cite)

Can anyone explain?Is a lawyer needed?

Txs

A lawyer is not compulsory but unless your wirtten Thai and legal knowledge are excellent, a good lawyer is highly recommended. You can even register a will at the district office and this may be harder to challenge than an unregistered will as it legalised by the district office staff at the time. As long as the FBA amendments don't get past, a corporate sructure still has some benefits in this respect. Even without preference shares you can structure the company with minority protections so that major decisions e.g. sale or purchase of assets accounting for more than say 10% of company's total assets require a 60% or 70% vote at a shareholers' meeting. At any rate, make sure you have a will and usufruct agreements for any property owned in your wife's name including her shares in your company, if she is your Thai shareholder. I have never understood why people want joint bank accounts but if you must have one with your Thai wife, be prepared to donate half to her family, if she should die suddenly.

[JimGant]

When my Thai wife died unexpectedly, her mother got 50% from our joint bank account.

Interesting. In the States, joint accounts avoid probate, being set-up as "joint tenants with right of survivorship." That's the reason we went that route here in Thailand. But, no reason, 'tho,' to think Thailand has the same legal structure. So, upon wife's death, will get on the Internet and move our joint account assets to my sole account.

30-year lease should keep any raging relatives from stealing the roof over my head. But, with no live-in translator, would probably sell and head for Hawaii.

[pgs]

Source: http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/Publicati..._foreigners.pdf

If there is no will, statutory heirs will inherit in the following order:

• children, parents and spouse of the deceased – equal shares.

• parents and spouse of the deceased – spouse receives half.

• full brothers, full sisters – spouse of the deceased receives half.

• half-brothers, half-sisters – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• grandfathers, grandmothers – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• uncles, aunts – spouse of the deceased receives two-thirds.

• none of the above – spouse of the deceased receives all.

If an heir in a higher order exists, heirs in the lower orders have no rights at a

Lopburi, Very helpful - this covers pretty much what I asked about a couple of weeks back. I have contacted Sunbelt but have had no response to contact through their website or direct email through TV. Could be too difficult for them. Siam Legal's 'on-line chat' operator mis-read the query & they wanted 4000THB/hr to think about it.

Perhaps this PDF should be pinned (& replaced when updated) - I'm sure it would be of benefit to many.

Edited November 13, 2007 by pgs

[Arkady]

When my Thai wife died unexpectedly, her mother got 50% from our joint bank account.

Interesting. In the States, joint accounts avoid probate, being set-up as "joint tenants with right of survivorship." That's the reason we went that route here in Thailand. But, no reason, 'tho,' to think Thailand has the same legal structure. So, upon wife's death, will get on the Internet and move our joint account assets to my sole account.

30-year lease should keep any raging relatives from stealing the roof over my head. But, with no live-in translator, would probably sell and head for Hawaii.

I don't think the concept of joint tenants with right of survivorship exists in Thailand but I could be wrong. Shifting assets from a joint account after the decease of the joint owner could also lead to problems. A court could order you to return the loot to her family and you might even be charged with defrauding your wife's estate. Best way is to have separate accounts while both parties are still living.

[Hog Head]

Get an attorney, do a USUFRUCT, do a will.

On every piece of property my wife owns, should she die, I have an absolute right to use it as I please until the day I die. I can rent it, lease it, live in it, ignore it....but it is my choice. As heir to each and every piece I can also legally sell it. After 11 years of marriage, the chance of divorce is slight, but even than I maintain the same rights. If we wish to sell some property, I have a right to resend my Usufruct.

Sunbelt did a great job of setting this up for me.

What is a Usufruct?

[old wanderer]

Get an attorney, do a USUFRUCT, do a will.

On every piece of property my wife owns, should she die, I have an absolute right to use it as I please until the day I die. I can rent it, lease it, live in it, ignore it....but it is my choice. As heir to each and every piece I can also legally sell it. After 11 years of marriage, the chance of divorce is slight, but even than I maintain the same rights. If we wish to sell some property, I have a right to resend my Usufruct.

Sunbelt did a great job of setting this up for me.

What is a Usufruct?

A USUFRUCT is a legal document here in Thailand. You need to file it with the title department where the property is located. It is recorded on the Chanote. You must pay your wife for this privilege some reasonable amount. She must pay tax on it.

What is says is this property is for my exclusive use to do with as I please until the day I die. Even if the property is sold, it does not set aside the USUFRUCT. Why people deal with leases is a mystery to me. In my opinion this is way better. It is absolute.

Use the search function and this has been discussed in many older post. I think the reason people want to use leases, they are easy to understand and they did not get good legal advise (which cost money) on other alternatives.

[Arkady]

Get an attorney, do a USUFRUCT, do a will.

On every piece of property my wife owns, should she die, I have an absolute right to use it as I please until the day I die. I can rent it, lease it, live in it, ignore it....but it is my choice. As heir to each and every piece I can also legally sell it. After 11 years of marriage, the chance of divorce is slight, but even than I maintain the same rights. If we wish to sell some property, I have a right to resend my Usufruct.

Sunbelt did a great job of setting this up for me.

What is a Usufruct?

A USUFRUCT is a legal document here in Thailand. You need to file it with the title department where the property is located. It is recorded on the Chanote. You must pay your wife for this privilege some reasonable amount. She must pay tax on it.

What is says is this property is for my exclusive use to do with as I please until the day I die. Even if the property is sold, it does not set aside the USUFRUCT. Why people deal with leases is a mystery to me. In my opinion this is way better. It is absolute.

Use the search function and this has been discussed in many older post. I think the reason people want to use leases, they are easy to understand and they did not get good legal advise (which cost money) on other alternatives.

The problem with leases in Thailand is that a 30 year lease registered at the Lands Dept doesn't give the tenant much more rights than an unregistered one year lease. Many foreigners think they are like long leases in their own countries and even believe nonsense from developers and crooked Thai lawyers about those fake options to renew for a further 30 or 60 years. Usufruct is a better option as it at least gives you more rights on paper. Some of these rights might not be upheld in a Thai court with a Thai land owner and a foreign usufruct holder, particularly the right to sell it or pass it on to heirs, but it is still better than a lease. The worst case is that a Thai court would just treat it as a 30 year lease.

[cloudhopper]

My advice - follow the old wanderer. The cloudhopper knows a good navigator when she sees one...

[torrenova]

I think we all get the scenario of the "loving" Thai family coming out of the woodwork and wanting "their" share to piss up on whisky and plasma TV sets so we have to keep our wits about us.

I understand that there is no trust law in Thailand so you have problems there. If we eventually buy a house here I was going to put it in trust for our baby daughter but we'll have to get another work around.

So with usufruct I have a few questions:

1. Is the property and the land in the thai name ?

2. How do you unravel a usufruct ?

3. What about if you both agree to sell - you have to place another usufruct on the new property ?

4. If she dies, are the properties excluded from her assets or just that the effective leases prevent the properties from being sold easily ?

5. I presume that they can still be sold bu the new owners (those who have inherited) ?

6. I do not see how the westerner could sell the property not belonging to him - anyone care to explain ?

As for cash accounts. I suspect the little bastards would be at your door within minutes with the begging bowl and they will have friends down at the local bank all too willing to empty the accounts. Keep your own money safe. Lock everything else away in a bank vault in a real bank in your name.