ให้ And ม้า

[Lithobid]

I was under the impression that the tone markers decided the tone of a word or syllable.

BUT ม้า and ให้ have the same tone marker but differnt sounds!

But looking at ให้ It sounds like a high tone or rising al most sounds like the ตรี๊ sound the third tone marker.

Does it sound different because of the consonant?

I am a beginer, so perhaps I should not go too fast, and let it come slowly, but I'm really trying hard to get the tone markers down.

[garro]

Hi lithobid

They both belong to different consonant classes so follow different rules to obtain their tone.

I would explain further but I am holding a crying baby

Edited November 12, 2007 by garro

[qualtrough]

I was under the impression that the tone markers decided the tone of a word or syllable.

BUT ม้า and ให้ have the same tone marker but differnt sounds!

But looking at ให้ It sounds like a high tone or rising al most sounds like the ตรี๊ sound the third tone marker.

Does it sound different because of the consonant?

I am a beginer, so perhaps I should not go too fast, and let it come slowly, but I'm really trying hard to get the tone markers down.

Yes, the different tone markers behave differently depending on what group the consonant falls under, there being 3 groups if I recall correctly. Pretty sure ม้า is a high tone and ให้ is falling. I used to know all this stuff, but much of it has now become internalized and something I just recognize automatically even if it might take me a while to explain it! I will let someone more knowledgeable than myself explain the details!

[eefoo]

I was under the impression that the tone markers decided the tone of a word or syllable.

BUT ม้า and ให้ have the same tone marker but differnt sounds!

But looking at ให้ It sounds like a high tone or rising al most sounds like the ตรี๊ sound the third tone marker.

Does it sound different because of the consonant?

I am a beginer, so perhaps I should not go too fast, and let it come slowly, but I'm really trying hard to get the tone markers down.

The ห in ให้ is a high class consonant which gives the word a falling tone with that tone mark. The ม in ม้า is in the low class of consonants, giving that word a high tone. A kid's wall chart of Thai characters can be bought for a couple of Baht at any market or stationery shop and shows all the letters colour coded for reference. A very handy thing to have hanging around.

edit to add: As mentioned previously, the tone marks must be read in conjunction with the class of the initial consonant and the length of the included vowel in order to get the correct tone. That is why one sometimes sees a silent ห at the begining of a syllable - simply to modify the tone.

Edited November 12, 2007 by eefoo

[meadish_sweetball]

I was under the impression that the tone markers decided the tone of a word or syllable.

BUT ม้า and ให้ have the same tone marker but differnt sounds!

But looking at ให้ It sounds like a high tone or rising al most sounds like the ตรี๊ sound the third tone marker.

Does it sound different because of the consonant?

I am a beginer, so perhaps I should not go too fast, and let it come slowly, but I'm really trying hard to get the tone markers down.

The ห in ให้ is a high class consonant which gives the word a falling tone with that tone mark. The ม in ม้า is in the low class of consonants, giving that word a high tone. A kid's wall chart of Thai characters can be bought for a couple of Baht at any market or stationery shop and shows all the letters colour coded for reference. A very handy thing to have hanging around.

edit to add: As mentioned previously, the tone marks must be read in conjunction with the class of the initial consonant and the length of the included vowel in order to get the correct tone. That is why one sometimes sees a silent ห at the begining of a syllable - simply to modify the tone.

Good explanation. I might add that the final sound of the syllable also affects the tone (if it is stop consonant (including the glottal stop at the end of short vowels), one tone applies; if it is a long vowel sound or a sonorant (a consonant sound which can carry the tone) another tone applies.

[qualtrough]

Meadish Sweetball, you were the 'more knowledgeable' person I was thinking of when I wrote my reply!

[eefoo]

Meadish Sweetball, you were the 'more knowledgeable' person I was thinking of when I wrote my reply!

Oops - sorry if I jumped in too early --

[mangkorn]

The final sound is a determinant of syllable tone when no tone mark is present.

When a tone mark is used, as in OP examples, the final sound has no bearing on the tone.

[eefoo]

The final sound is a determinant of syllable tone when no tone mark is present.

When a tone mark is used, as in OP examples, the final sound has no bearing on the tone.

I think Meadish will have you on that one ..

I'll leave it to him to explain it as he is much better than me at actually getting the point across.

[meadish_sweetball]

The final sound is a determinant of syllable tone when no tone mark is present.

When a tone mark is used, as in OP examples, the final sound has no bearing on the tone.

It's true the final sound is not relevant in the words the OP asked about. I just added the consideration to the comment by eefo, to complete the list of things to look out for when determining the tone of a syllable.

[meadish_sweetball]

I was under the impression that the tone markers decided the tone of a word or syllable.

BUT ม้า and ให้ have the same tone marker but differnt sounds!

But looking at ให้ It sounds like a high tone or rising al most sounds like the ตรี๊ sound the third tone marker.

Does it sound different because of the consonant?

I am a beginer, so perhaps I should not go too fast, and let it come slowly, but I'm really trying hard to get the tone markers down.

ให้ takes the falling tone as has already been mentioned. It's important to recognize that while the tones are called 'falling', 'rising' , 'low', and 'mid' these designations are just there as aids and not perfect descriptions of the actual pitch curves the tones describe.

The reason you hear similarities between the sound of mai trii (the third tone mark) which represents the high tone, and the tone of ให้ which is the falling tone, is because the falling tone actually starts by rising the pitch a little, before it falls. The relative starting position is also quite high in the voice register. If the Thai falling tone was a strictly falling pitch, it would sound different.

You should focus on listening to the tones and repeating them as much as you can. Try looking for distinguishing qualities, test yourself, and if you tend to confuse two tones, listen to them after each other until you hear the difference. Once you hear the difference well you will be able to produce it better - but both the listening and speaking part are important.

As for the tone markers, at this point you have probably already realized they will represent different tones depending on the surrounding sounds.

One can construct a diagram based on the relevant things to consider when determining tone - there might be one available on the net somewhere. It is a good idea to copy this diagram and learn it by heart, as it will help you through the early stages of reading until you have internalized the rules.

And please keep asking here if something is still unclear.

[eefoo]

Ah. Hands up - mea culpa. I missed the 'OPs examples' bit of the reply. Sorry Mangkorn

[mangkorn]

Just to clarify, "OP's examples" was not the important bit of my reply, but what preceded it: "When a tone mark is used..."

Cheers.