My Kids Are Thai - But What About Chinese-thais - Are They More "thai" Than Thai-farang Or Thai-indian?

[thaigene2]

I must admit that after reading the Guru section of the Bangkok Post each week, I find a rather, how shall I say this - 'class-based' and 'ethnic-based' bias growing concern that does not reflect favourably on Thai-Farang or Thai-Indian.

I have NEVER seen the same type of articles written about Thai-Chin. And I must wonder why.

The great thing about Thailand is its ability to laugh-off differences between cultures in a light-hearted way, and exploit them (in a good way) for the benefit of the country's development. My kids are a mix of Thai-Chin-Farang.

But this raises a question. Are Thai-Chin being positioned (in the media - to be clear here) as more Thai than Thai-Khmer, Thai-Lao, Thai-Farang, Thai-Indian, etc? Afterall, they are no more "THAI" than I am..

This is NOT a racial question - it's meant to provoke some soul searching about why it's OK to satarise thai-indian and thai-farang (not to mention Burmese, Khmer and others) but not thai-chin (or others?)..

To prohibit this debate would suggest a fear...of what exactly? Let's see.. let me be clear, Anyone who uses this post to get racist is not welcome to reply (from my perspective) but that shouldn't preclude a healthy deabte about where we as residents of Thailand are right now -- and where we are heading. Those who would prohibit that kind of debate speak volumes - they think they already know the truth - but do they?

[cooL_guY_corY]

Guru is horrendous and is good for laughs only ( my opinion ) and the mixed foreigner/thais loves to talk about themselves like that and display their western lifestyles.

I think that Thai-Chinese people get more attention in newspapers and are more common to be famous / models / signers / tv stars etc.. The look is popular right now and if you have money to start then you can go a lot farther.. for example Petch (forget family name) the singer who put out the album Lets talk about love.. his father owns Bangkok University and the family has some money.. his brother got a Ferrari, and he got to make some cds... although he at least broke even pretty much on that.

I dont think one is more Thai then the other.. Thai-Chinese have been here for a long time just as Thai-Lao/Khmer have been prevalent in the North-East for a very long time as well, i have no clue about dates or numbers or shit like that.. I would definitely say that Thai-Chinese and Thai-Lao/Khmer are more Thai then someone who is say Thai Indian or Thai - Foreigner, mostly because the blood line has been in the country for a longer period of time.. that being said though its also like this, if you have Thai blood then your a Thai citizen.. what i mean is that if your ethnically Asian then you will appear to be more Thai then someone who is mixed with a ethnicity outside of Oriental Asia.. The funny thing is how the people who leave here see each other.. (Lots of)People in bangkok (born here) usually look down on the North East, the NE have the population so they can sway elections and also prove a huge labor supply for bkk. I know Thai (Siamese) people who hate Isaan people and hate Thai-Chinese people and even other Thais, and i know Isaan people who are pretty laid back as far as that kind of thing goes, and i know lots of Thai-Chinese people who also really look down on Lao people..

Guru really seems to try hard to talk about themselves, from what i've gathered its just some rich Thais ( and look-kreung and Thai-Indian people) who some how got a free magazine to run.

oh well hopefully this post makes sense

[Neeranam]

They are scared of the Thai-chinese as they have more power than the 'kaek' and 'farang'. They're even scared to call them 'jaek'. They have been here longer possibly. Don't tell the Thais that Lord Buddha was a "kaek".

[thaigene2]

Thanks - I think both posts above confirmed what I thought - more or less. It seems Guru simply fans the flames of ethnic-discrimination. Of course, the vast majority of Thais -- whatever their non-english ability to read may be -- means they are oblivious to all of this - do they feel uncomfortable in the same bars and restaurants? No because they have no clue about this do they??...

Why? Because the Thai language papers would seem to be puppets of the same groups who play them like a fiddle - just talk about the dirty migrants etc..? Perhaps that's another post - or a Master's Degree -- that will never happen - while the rich-ethnic minorities get richer and keep laughing at these Isan and other Thai people (who are the MAJORITY if you hadn't noticed - isn't that Ok for them to vote for someone you don't like Cool_Guy_Cory? Isn't that democracy if they vote for somone who steps on the dirty little guang-xi way of doing things?? But this is rhetorical..I admit)

Edited November 13, 2007 by thaigene2

[papaya9]

Its funny that many Thai Chinese people go out of their way to make it clear that they're TC. A form of elitism and just another manifestation of big face syndrome.

Edited November 13, 2007 by papaya9

[ya5702]

Its funny that many Thai Chinese people go out of their way to make it clear that they're TC. A form of elitism and just another manifestation of big face syndrome.

Personally, I would refer to myself as Chinese-Thai, my friends as Indian-Thai, or Burmese-Thai. We are of different ethnicity sharing one nationality. Not the other way around.

[Pepe']

They are scared of the Thai-chinese as they have more power than the 'kaek' and 'farang'. They're even scared to call them 'jaek'. They have been here longer possibly. Don't tell the Thais that Lord Buddha was a "kaek".

--------------------

Now that, is a good one...

[Scott]

As is common in a number of Asian countries (and non-Asian as well), the Chinese often control a great deal of money and with money goes a certain amount of power. The Chinese, as a very general rule, retain a great deal of their own identity, culture and language, this makes true integration somewhat of a problem.

I know a lot of Thai-Chinese and they usually refer to themselves as such, but some years back when there was some rather strong anit-Chinese sentiment, they were suddenly only Thai.

What I do find important is that most Thai people will identify them as Thai-Chinese. This means that others, who see themselves as pure Thai, know who they are. Their identification, in my experience, is not one of particular respect, I might add.

How well accepted people are has a lot to do with Nationalism.

[Pepe']

Its funny that many Thai Chinese people go out of their way to make it clear that they're TC. A form of elitism and just another manifestation of big face syndrome.

--------------------

I was married to a Thai Chinese gal for eight years.

You are absolutely correct...

[Heng]

As is common in a number of Asian countries (and non-Asian as well), the Chinese often control a great deal of money and with money goes a certain amount of power. The Chinese, as a very general rule, retain a great deal of their own identity, culture and language, this makes true integration somewhat of a problem.

I know a lot of Thai-Chinese and they usually refer to themselves as such, but some years back when there was some rather strong anit-Chinese sentiment, they were suddenly only Thai.

What I do find important is that most Thai people will identify them as Thai-Chinese. This means that others, who see themselves as pure Thai, know who they are. Their identification, in my experience, is not one of particular respect, I might add.

How well accepted people are has a lot to do with Nationalism.

It's inevitable that there will be some resentment when the lines are fairly clear who runs/owns the country, although as a whole I'd say the feelings lean more towards emulatation and often even immitation (an often amusing/awkward show of respect), rather than resentment. One sees that specifically with non-Thai Chinese who are quick to adopt the titles of 'hia' 'sia' 'tao kae' when doing business, from push carts to SME's, even going as far as encouraging their non-Thai Chinese employees/customers/family members, etc. to address them as such. A good number of my orchid growers and pet fish farmers try to come across this way as Thai Chinese, although they are clearly ethnically Thai.

Another rather clear indicator is the fact that Chinese from Singapore, Malaysia, HK, Taiwan, etc. often get a virtually free pass (well, for a fee or favor usually...) to actually BECOME Thai, when nearly every other foreign ethnicity has to jump through hoops. If all the "Thai Chinese" who weren't home grown had to do visa runs, instead of simply being issued Thai ID cards by the ethnic Thais running their last bastions of organization: gov't/district offices, you'd have numbers in the higher hundred thousands/low millions having to leave the country every 90 days.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Heng

[fennielyn]

Another rather clear indicator is the fact that Chinese from Singapore, Malaysia, HK, Taiwan, etc. often get a virtually free pass (well, for a fee or favor usually...) to actually BECOME Thai, when nearly every other foreign ethnicity has to jump through hoops. If all the "Thai Chinese" who weren't home grown had to do visa runs, instead of simply being issued Thai ID cards by the ethnic Thais running their last bastions of organization: gov't/district offices, you'd have numbers in the higher hundred thousands/low millions having to leave the country every 90 days.

You just gave me a fresh lease of hope. Today is a good day indeed.

[Heng]

Of course, that's not to say that any Huaren can become Thai Chinese... you'll need a local house registry to be added to and of course a friendly amphur official (fortunately it doesn't have to be a high ranking official... Thai ID cards are suprisingly controlled by mid and relatively low level officials in each amphur).

[madjbs]

Is the OP referring to the children of a Chinese person and a native Thai (in the same way as a farang and a Thai) Or is he referring to the children of Thai-Chinese families who are Thai citizens? If it is the second then it really is complicated. There virtually isn’t a central Thai family that doesn’t have Chinese blood in them, the Chinese have been here and integrating with the local population since the early Thai empires. Also there is the migration of Chinese immigrants in the last 100 years. These immigrants were at first fairly independent of Thai society but there was a major push in the early 1900s for these Chinese to be fully integrated into Thai society, hence the so called “Thai Chinese” (Thais that people recognize as having Chinese looks) being accepted to this day. It really is a massive subject and I cant explain what I want to fully here.

[cdnvic]

Its funny that many Thai Chinese people go out of their way to make it clear that they're TC. A form of elitism and just another manifestation of big face syndrome.

My in-laws are very adamant about that. They insist on being "Thai", not "Chinese Thai, or Thai Chinese"

[madjbs]

It is worth remembering that "Thai" is the label of the nation state and not a particular race (although to be fair its derived form the word "tai") When the Integration started is was accepted that you were "Thai" if you swore yourself to the king, spoke the Thai language and practiced Buddhism. As a result there are people of many ethnic groups that can be labeled as "pure Thai". The group that many people see as being traditionally Thai however is the Siamese from the Chao Phraya delta.

[Neeranam]

Nearly all Thais, if given the chance would rather be Eurasian(Thai/farang) than Thai/Chinese. The 'look' is much more advantageous.

[ThaidleHands]

Just a bit of data to add here. Royal Thai Police statistics for the year 2005 show 257,202 resident aliens in the Kingdom. 202,008 were from the PRC. India placed second with 6,673. All of Farangland combined totaled less than 17,000.

[xyborg]

<br />Its funny that many Thai Chinese people go out of their way to make it clear that they're TC. A form of elitism and just another manifestation of big face syndrome.<br />

Im sure! "look how white we are" mind you in the west they are seen more as "yellow". Sad really, we are all people, all the same bar colour and a few minor differences and all on ONE planet which they fail to realise. Our stupidit will kill us all. Have a nice day :-)

[xyborg]

Its funny that many Thai Chinese people go out of their way to make it clear that they're TC. A form of elitism and just another manifestation of big face syndrome.

Personally, I would refer to myself as Chinese-Thai, my friends as Indian-Thai, or Burmese-Thai. We are of different ethnicity sharing one nationality. Not the other way around

Personaly I would say I am "me" born in the UK I could be any colour race or religion but wouldnt bother saying any of this.

Do you tell them the % of Thai or Chinese you are too?? Its all rather stupid isnt it?

[maccaroni man]

Is the OP referring to the children of a Chinese person and a native Thai (in the same way as a farang and a Thai) Or is he referring to the children of Thai-Chinese families who are Thai citizens? If it is the second then it really is complicated. There virtually isn’t a central Thai family that doesn’t have Chinese blood in them, the Chinese have been here and integrating with the local population since the early Thai empires. Also there is the migration of Chinese immigrants in the last 100 years. These immigrants were at first fairly independent of Thai society but there was a major push in the early 1900s for these Chinese to be fully integrated into Thai society, hence the so called “Thai Chinese” (Thais that people recognize as having Chinese looks) being accepted to this day. It really is a massive subject and I cant explain what I want to fully here.

well said, so i wonder do the thai chinese who are born in thailand feel offended by being considered anything other than a Thai?

[TonyLeung]

"Afterall, they are no more "THAI" than I am.. "

What are you talking about? They moved to Thailand as families, became Thai Citizens, and then married each other.

You came to Thailand by yourself and married a Thai girl? How are you more Thai than someone who

1. was born in Thailand

2. has Thai Citizenship

3. speaks fluent Thai

My great grandmother who went from Italy to America was never an American, but her kids were. You are not Thai, but your kids will be...

And if I have to be honest, I think all these posts complaining about Thai Chinese are from guys who are self conscious about their Thai wife's social status, family, education, etc.

[CTO]

Not more Thai, just more important - Aren't all our kids more important than someone elses?

So much I'd like to say but one of those topics that gets out of hand fast so I'll avoid it.

However - have a read if you can find, comments by Sonthithe newspaper man and the last ICT Minister who resigned a month or so ago, and see what they say about their relaitions ship with China and Thailand.

Edited November 14, 2007 by CTO

[madjbs]

CTO, are you talking about a different topic because none of that makes sense.

[simon43]

Well, who is Thai? Since the population consists largly of immigrants, (ie those who migrated to this geographical region that's now called Thailand), I think it's fair to say that any person who has Thai nationality is just as Thai as the next person. That ranges from the Tai groups of immigrants, the Portuguese who lived at Ayutthaya, the various muslim communities who migrated from Burma, China and Cambodia, and the Europeans/Westerners who are still migrating here and have obtained citizenship.

I'm not Thai right now. But if/when I get Thai citizenship (give me 5 years+), then I'm as Thai as the next Thai

Simon

[TheDon]

Well, who is Thai? Since the population consists largly of immigrants, (ie those who migrated to this geographical region that's now called Thailand), I think it's fair to say that any person who has Thai nationality is just as Thai as the next person. That ranges from the Tai groups of immigrants, the Portuguese who lived at Ayutthaya, the various muslim communities who migrated from Burma, China and Cambodia, and the Europeans/Westerners who are still migrating here and have obtained citizenship.

I'm not Thai right now. But if/when I get Thai citizenship (give me 5 years+), then I'm as Thai as the next Thai

Simon

You should become a cop, If i was ever to be a cop in Thailand, I would be the most corrupt cop you would ever see.

I would fine you if i dont like the way your looking at me.

I think it would be fun, just stare people down then tell them to piss off or get a fine.

Lets just hope I never become a Thai cop

[simon43]

You should become a cop...

[\quote]

Already am! I'm a Volunteer Tourist Police Officer at Phuket airport

Simon

[thaigene2]

"Afterall, they are no more "THAI" than I am.. "

What are you talking about? They moved to Thailand as families, became Thai Citizens, and then married each other.

You came to Thailand by yourself and married a Thai girl? How are you more Thai than someone who

1. was born in Thailand

2. has Thai Citizenship

3. speaks fluent Thai

My great grandmother who went from Italy to America was never an American, but her kids were. You are not Thai, but your kids will be...

And if I have to be honest, I think all these posts complaining about Thai Chinese are from guys who are self conscious about their Thai wife's social status, family, education, etc.

I was referring to those who moved here from China - 1st Generation. Not those who were born here - though I think you could still argue that if they were born to two Chinese parents they would still not be Thai would they? Isn't there a law that says at least one parent must be Thai? Isn't that the whole argument with denying citizenship to Hill Tribes? Or even farangs born in Thailand to two farang parents?

When my first kid was born here (to a Thai mother) they granted him a Birth Certificate and Thai Citizenship due to the fact his mother was a Thai. But then the local Amphur also made us fill out a form to state why the child wasn't given a "Thai" name. Some excuse was made that too many Thais like to give their kids farang names like Cin-dee and Will-ley (leuk-kreung names from Thai TV stars).

So then, if a child is born to two chinese parents in Thailand do they get Thai citizenship? If so then why not farangs?

Also Heng - are you sure about that claim that they hand out citizenship to chinese-born migrants that easily? perhaps that explains why so many seem to have owned property for so long (foreigners cannot own land in Thailand).

[madjbs]

The law has been changed in the last 50 years or so. Before then anyone could become Thai if they were born here. Chinese born Immigrants were also given Thai citizenship providing they cut their ties with China. They received Thai names etc... This was partly due to the power of the Chinese in BKK at that time who were creating secret organizations and running areas of BKK and also to unite the Chinese with Thais at the time of WWII when Thailand officially took sides with Japan even though Japan was invading China.

[madjbs]

A first generation immigrant wouldn’t be considered Thai because they generally don’t speak Thai, don’t practice Thai Buddhism and don’t swear themselves to the king. Even if they did they technically wouldn’t be Thai as the modern Laws prevent it. Having said that they could probably be considered more Thai than a farang as Thais and Chinese have more similarities than farangs and Thais, as well as the long history of the Chinese in Thailand which means people are more accustomed to Chinese people.

Edited November 14, 2007 by madjbs

[TonyLeung]

"So then, if a child is born to two Chinese parents in Thailand do they get Thai citizenship? If so then why not farangs?"

i can't answer your question, but i can give you a story from a friend. Her father was born in Thailand, as were 5 of his siblings. His parents and 5 different siblings came from China, illegally or semi illegally because they weren't issued papers or citizenship right off the bat. they have had to pay to get citizenship and i think two of his siblings still do not have citizenship. my friend has gone to meetings held at city council and has contacted ngo type organisations to try and get this sorted. i think one of them paid a Thai person for their papers/identity. As a family, they have done well (I guess with 12 people working together it is easy). none of them speak Chinese, only Thai.

perhaps when an Asian baby was born in a hospital in Thailand in 1960 it might be easy to just write something down for the paperwork and slip someone money. Or maybe they weren't even born in a hospital but in a home (this was the case with my aunt in NY in 1950).

who knows, but it doesn't take much stretch of the imagination to see this is easier for a Chinese person than a German.