Male/female - East Vs West

[NanLaew]

polly, it aint hysteria. you better be dam_n CAREFUL ABOUT WOT YOU SAY TO WOMEN IN WEST. women get big bucks just claiming harrassament by men.

if secretary wear low cut blouse you better just look and not compliment her..........lol. and not look too mut.

don't confuse "the west" with "the USA"

Indeed, but by all accounts it is infectious.

[chiang mai]

Truly a brilliant rant from IloveDogs ! Good stuff ! You tell them !

Now, QUOTE (sylviex @ 2007-11-19 19:22:45) "Male" and "female" are, in reality, just the words we use to label the ends of a very long x-y axis.

In between lies a whole range of individuals of the human species. Chiang Mai, if I were to feed you female hormones, you'd notice changes, but would you not still feel you were still "you" to a very large extent and % ?

Probably the best definition thus far. That being true it implies that we are all different? If that is the case is it not appropriate to divide the species by gender but rather by capabilities? That being true (if) it is even more inappropriate to attempt to give the same set of rights to all people of one gender?

I'm getting in the car now!!

He's off in the dam_n car now and he's AGREEING with me !

Hmmm, but only sort-of.

You need to spell out these differing capabilities for me.

The differences I do see between men and women relate more to attitudes/tendencies than "capabilities". Capabilities seem fairly evely distributed between the genders, though I will confess to a huge non-understanding of physics, both theoretical and practical. But I have female friends who have a brilliant capacity for the "hard" sciences; some with bodies quite clearly a-flow with more estrogen than mine.

It could be that women notice that whatever % difference rather more than men do ... ?

And for Peace Blondie :

I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?

Well, what to make of this thread, now that holiday is over - bit of a train wreck really! That's what I get for trying to do two things at the same time, but you know how we low IQ idiots that are old and married to bar girl hookers are sometimes - yee gods, spare us all!

Ok Sylviex first: clearly what I intended and should have typed was the obverse and that was to divide the species (dots) by capabilities and not by gender - if I can lay my hands on a large enough sheet of graph paper I'll begin this exercise and I'll let you know how it comes out! But I guess that particular graph will only be useful if we produce a second one that shows "interest". I mean it's one thing to show that a female has a capability for a particular role but yet another for them to be interested in assuming that role. So how's that, I'll get back to this thread when the graph is finished and by that time perhaps medical science will have learned more about the differences between our make up in which case my finding will be moot.

[chiang mai]

How to answer the OP without making him look like a opportunistic idiot? Of course, since we can assume that he is a Western male, and that he has taken all that that culture has afforded him, he is now in the East looking for any benefits he can gain here. Well, of course, look towards the lack of equality between the sexes, and take your advantage there, as well as the financial advantage you probably have by coming from a richer country.

Any thing else we can help you with???? Maybe if you were born in this culture you would see certain responsibilities going along with your so virile manhood, not only the candystore aspect of your now coming to Asia. Maybe sex for sale for such cheap prices would not appeal to you quite so much as they do. We can all admit that we don't find rich Asian men marrying hookers or bar girls do we?? Why not? They are in the same playing fields. Why don't they go to Western countries and look for white hookers and bargirls to marry if the white skin makes the difference???

Okay, those Asian men make a line in the sand between girls they play with and girls they marry. Why??? Could it be for the same reason we don't marry hookers in London?

Or could Western men be under false assumptions about what Eastern women are going to provide for them?? They are so accomodating (or manipulative and dishonest) which is it?? Do you really like the feeling that someone agrees with everything, that they haven't had an opinion in 5 years about where you should eat, about what towels to buy, about the house you live in, about if your kid is a boy or girl, about what religion you decide to bring up the child, and then, Oh my GOD, one day, she is gone!! NO warning, no threats, just GONE!!!

Personally, I would much rather be told that my spouse likes green towels, and likes Indian food more than steak, and that she thinks our house is haunted by ghosts than just have nothing said and have her be gone one day.

I think some people think that they can pick and chose the best from their country and culture, and then move to Thailand, and pick just what they like here, and take that home with them too. They want what is good, but not what goes along with it. Of course. I would like to be rich but never work. I would like to have the best wife, but be the worst husband, how can I do that?? Oh, be a Western man, go to SE Asia and get a wife. THen talk shit about how horrible Western women were, and how great these women I don't understand are, do things I never would do for my Western girlfriends, like SUPPORT my child now that I am 60 years old ... I think that may be a good idea. (How many girls were pregnant that you said no way to before your Thai girl??? Could it be because in Thailand the cost could be less than your drinking budget??)

To the OP: I hope you have a daughter born and raised here, and I hope you don't mind the standards when they are applied to her. And when you are long gone, because I can just guess you might be rather old, she might just have to be a bar girl to pay for univerisity, or to support her mother, that you are no longer taking care of. And when that 60 year old guy from the UK is screwing her for 4000 baht a month, and then leaving her after a year because he is bored and can find hundreds of replacements just as good, will you be cheering on the Eastern ways that served you so well??

Nice rant containing wonderful sterotypes - do you feel better now? But far too presumptuous and wide of the mark in respect of content I'm afraid and really, if you think about it, not too much relevance to the subject at hand!.

[DamianMavis]

EXACTLY, I don't know why it annoys me more when women act like bad men (ignorant sexist generalisers), going after someone trying to pin countelss ridiculous stereotypes on a man that hasn't done or said anything to support these claims except be a male and in Thailand.

"Truly a brilliant rant from IloveDogs ! Good stuff ! You tell them !"

Tell who? ALL men? Talk about ignorant.

Damian

[chiang mai]

Men and women are not the same physically, but they are about 5% different, anatomically. They are equal intellectually. Emotional status is driven by culture.

I hate OP's who say provide the quantification for your 5% difference but I'm afraid that if you are going to quote it I'll have to ask for supporting evidence. It's not that I don't believe you it's just that I don't identify with that number as a scientific assessment, nor have I ever heard it before.

As for the second part, sorry PB but there is far more to it than just cultural drivers and I'ld be out of my depth if I tried to guess what they might be. Perhaps therefore you can explain whether that is opinion or fact. Sorry to be a pain but the differences between men and women are at the very heart of this debate hence I'm not comfortable accepting what might turn out to be throw away statements.

Anatomically: hands, feet, head, stomach, throat, ears, skin, eyelashes, chins, larynx, eyes, legs, arms, nose, hair, brain: 95% anatomically the same. Men generally have larger muscles, smaller breasts (but they have chests and nipples), more hair (but women have lots of hair), etc. Kidneys, livers, lungs, etc. Pretty much the same. You don't need a scientific survey of 29 anatomical scientists to understand that one. Same species.

Emotional: we all cry (even if secretly, or if a loved one dies), we have pain or joy or orgasms or friendship or or or...the list goes on. The behavior by which we exhibit the emotions is culturally conditioned.

Nah, I don't have no stinkin' quantification. I made up that 5% statistic on the sperm of the moment. Maybe the anatomical difference is 4.3% or 9.8644%, but you get the point that we're the same species, human. In spite of pop psychology, women aren't from Venus and we aren't from Mars. Simply in my biased opinion, I suspect most of the 'differences between the genders' are man-made and man-maintained, to keep their women (even their own daughters) subordinate and inferior. Of course, I'm often wrong, and macho White Aryan males may be the superior race, but I doubt it.

If you were to change the gender reference in your statement below to be more neutral, I could agree with you entirely.

"differences between the genders' are man-made and man-maintained, to keep their women (even their own daughters) subordinate and inferior".

[sylviex]

EXACTLY, I don't know why it annoys me more when women act like bad men (ignorant sexist generalisers), going after someone trying to pin countelss ridiculous stereotypes on a man that hasn't done or said anything to support these claims except be a male and in Thailand.

"Truly a brilliant rant from IloveDogs ! Good stuff ! You tell them !"

Tell who? ALL men? Talk about ignorant.

Damian

Whooooosh !!

Sorry, should have used some kind of emoticon to express intended irony (though I confess I rather enjoyed the passion of that rant).

As it turned out, you were pigeon-holing me .

But such is the internet. Perhaps you were having a bad hair day ?

ChiangMai - I look forward to the graphs. I have seen something similar, with drawings, for the range of physical differences. ("Ultra male" and "ultra female" at the extremes).

There is research on such matters but it tends to get shooshed-up a bit because it can appear Nazi-ist.

[ade100]

It is clear that the role and status of women in Thailand is changing and moving towards the Western model. I understand that a few generations ago it was customary for a woman to kneel at the foot of her husband’s bed every night and pay respect to his feet. I am pretty sure that most Thai women don’t do this anymore.

However I understand it is still common, and even expected, for the successful Thai man to have many mistresses. Their wives are clearly not happy but have little choice for economic reasons.

It is also common for Thai girls going to university to have an older man “sponsor” her and pay for her fees in exchange for the obvious.

Through my male Western eyes this seems to be unfair, unjust and disrespectful so it is probably good that it is moving towards the Western model. However like many Western men with Thai wives or girlfriends, I am very attracted to the Asian sense of feminity that seems to have got a bit lost in the West.

[chiang mai]

It is clear that the role and status of women in Thailand is changing and moving towards the Western model. I understand that a few generations ago it was customary for a woman to kneel at the foot of her husband’s bed every night and pay respect to his feet. I am pretty sure that most Thai women don’t do this anymore.

However I understand it is still common, and even expected, for the successful Thai man to have many mistresses. Their wives are clearly not happy but have little choice for economic reasons.

It is also common for Thai girls going to university to have an older man “sponsor” her and pay for her fees in exchange for the obvious.

Through my male Western eyes this seems to be unfair, unjust and disrespectful so it is probably good that it is moving towards the Western model. However like many Western men with Thai wives or girlfriends, I am very attracted to the Asian sense of feminity that seems to have got a bit lost in the West.

I agree with all of that. My starting point on all of this however was to suggest that external influence from Western women is not helpful to the development and change in Thai culture where it concerns male/female relationships and the issue of equality of the sexes. I'm 100% OK with the fact that women in the East achieve greater equality, develop into and begin to occupy roles traditionally occupied by men and a whole host of other areas for improvement, as long as they do so naturally, at their own pace and in line with any other evolutionary changes involving the Thai culture. I stated at the outset of this thread that I thought that influence by Western women on this subject is unhelpful and I continue to believe that. Earlier I used the parallel of the West believing that democracy is good and a must have for every country and I don't believe that is true either. On both those issues I say, leave them alone, no undue influence or involvement on the part of the West, let things evolve more or less naturally and let's see where that takes us - the final model may turn out to be different and even preferable to that of the West. No, one size does not fit all in my book.

[DamianMavis]

EXACTLY, I don't know why it annoys me more when women act like bad men (ignorant sexist generalisers), going after someone trying to pin countelss ridiculous stereotypes on a man that hasn't done or said anything to support these claims except be a male and in Thailand.

"Truly a brilliant rant from IloveDogs ! Good stuff ! You tell them !"

Tell who? ALL men? Talk about ignorant.

Damian

Whooooosh !!

Sorry, should have used some kind of emoticon to express intended irony (though I confess I rather enjoyed the passion of that rant).

As it turned out, you were pigeon-holing me .

But such is the internet. Perhaps you were having a bad hair day ?

ChiangMai - I look forward to the graphs. I have seen something similar, with drawings, for the range of physical differences. ("Ultra male" and "ultra female" at the extremes).

There is research on such matters but it tends to get shooshed-up a bit because it can appear Nazi-ist.

Sorry if you were joking.

Why does EVERYONE make cracks about MY HAIR?! Haven't you people seen a tiger boy before?! Wrawr! heh

Damian

[chanchao]

Why does EVERYONE make cracks about MY HAIR?!

We're jealous that you HAVE hair.

And that you show it off with such vivacious abundance in your avatar. Your hair is basically what a Mercedes SLK is to another poster who I shall decline to identify.

[sylviex]

No worries, Damian. I can understand your perspective, (if not your hair ).

the Asian sense of feminity

This needs definition.

[chiang mai]

No worries, Damian. I can understand your perspective, (if not your hair ).

the Asian sense of feminity

This needs definition.

Always happy to help:

"Femininity refers to qualities and behaviors judged by a particular culture to be ideally associated with or especially appropriate to women and girls".

[koheesti]

where would middle aged men with average salaries be without impoverished 3rd world women?

Eastern Europe.

[sylviex]

Always happy to help:

"Femininity refers to qualities and behaviors judged by a particular culture to be ideally associated with or especially appropriate to women and girls".

In the Thai/Asian context, then ?

I know that motherhood is - at least theoretically - an almost sacred role here; so much so that the mother of one's children ought not be "abused" for base purposes such as sexual pleasure. Hence the very marked "good girl" / "bad girl" syndrome.

So, perhaps there are different descriptors for femininity in these different "types" of woman.

[chiang mai]

Always happy to help:

"Femininity refers to qualities and behaviors judged by a particular culture to be ideally associated with or especially appropriate to women and girls".

In the Thai/Asian context, then ?

I know that motherhood is - at least theoretically - an almost sacred role here; so much so that the mother of one's children ought not be "abused" for base purposes such as sexual pleasure. Hence the very marked "good girl" / "bad girl" syndrome.

So, perhaps there are different descriptors for femininity in these different "types" of woman.

Definition as per Wiki. As for the rest of it, I regret I haven't got a clue as to what you might have meant! I suspect if you were to negate your opening statement the rest of what you wrote becomes moot?

[sylviex]

One of the major (culturally prescribed) virtues of Thai women centres around motherhood.

A wife (=mother) is thus not expected to be a man's sexual partner, nor to display much interest in sex.