Teaching Without A Permit (continued)

[Begs]

So it's ok for English Teachers to work without a permit, that's good. Glad you have cleared that up for me.

^ Please show me where I said that? Don't misquote me it's not big and it's not clever!

Again, my reasons for discouraging people from working without a permit have nothing to do with any consequences they might face. Because, essentially, there are no personal consequences to working without a permit.

................................................................................

..............

Your words not mine.

Don't be so defensive.

[kenkannif]

I didn't say that, go back and check and you'll see it was Pudgimelon one of the few people that agrees (kind of with you) please detract and apologise, thanks!

[Begs]

I didn't say that, go back and check and you'll see it was Pudgimelon one of the few people that agrees (kind of with you) please detract and apologise, thanks!

Yes it was the other guy. Sorry.

So you agree then that a person that is Teaching, working, earning money without a Permit is breaking the Law?

I am glad you see things that way, because i hate to see people going to Thailand and breaking the Law, it gives honest people like you and me a bad name.

Especially with you paying Tax and having a work permit.

Imagine if you was a Thai Teaching a subject for 8,000 Baht a month in a State School, and you knew of Foreigners that where coming to Thailand and getting 8 times your salary and not paying tax and working illegaly.

Can you imagine the uproar in a similar situation in your native countries by members of the Teaching profession......

[kenkannif]

^ Again you prove your ignorance in the matter, a fair few teachers without WPs DO PAY TAX!

Look blame the schools and the MoE not the teachers, do you think they enjoy not having a work permit!

Why not start a new thread (as this is going nowhere) on the morality of working without a work permit? This is a thread discussing what goes on in teaching here in Thailand.

As I said I worked in this position for 9 months BEFORE I got my work permit, so I can hardly cast stones at others when I've done it myself (and knows how so often is happens).

Yes the Thai teacher one is a good argument, doesn't cut the mustard as it does happen here all the time, so your point is (we're not in OTHER countries, we're in Thailand so stick to what HAPPENS in Thailand no?).

You're not a teacher, you're not interested in teaching so why are you posting here?

[kenkannif]

So you agree then that a person that is Teaching, working, earning money without a Permit is breaking the Law?

^ Not if they work for the British Council no!

[Begs]

You're not a teacher, you're not interested in teaching so why are you posting here?

Oh sorry i thought this was an open forum.

You should have said it was Teachers only earlier.

Please accept my humble apologies.

[Ijustwannateach]

This fellow Begs is obviously trolling, so I'd suggest everyone ignore. He's apparently the type of guy who harps on his money because there's nothing else that makes his life more than a statistically unlikely waste of hydrocarbons.

"Steven"

[Begs]

This fellow Begs is obviously trolling, so I'd suggest everyone ignore. He's apparently the type of guy who harps on his money because there's nothing else that makes his life more than a statistically unlikely waste of hydrocarbons.

"Steven"

That is an open attack on a forum member, i am shocked and humiliated.

Kindly retract that slur against my character, i have never insulted you, i am just a keen observer of all things that matter to me.

Foreigners abiding by Thailands Immigration laws are something i feel strongly about.

I feel quite light headed after that personal literary attack, i may faint and fall down cracking my head open on the hard floor surface.

I will note the time of your e-mailed attack, it may prove to be a useful ally in any upcoming lawsuit i file against you for causing me to pass out and injure myself.

[Ijustwannateach]

Oops, gosh, sorry [where's that limp-wristed icon?]. Also sorry that I included the word 'apparently' above.

[Ijustwannateach]

You're not a teacher, you're not interested in teaching so why are you posting here?

Oh sorry i thought this was an open forum.

You should have said it was Teachers only earlier.

Please accept my humble apologies.

Hey, Ken, can you check if you make this section Teachers-only by fiat and get rid of Mr. Thenthitive?

"Steven"

[Begs]

Oops, gosh, sorry [where's that limp-wristed icon?]. Also sorry that I included the word 'apparently' above.

Please tell me where i mention my money?

I am just a poor humble worker.

In fact, if I could earn the salaries that English Teachers command, I would also stay in Thailand full time. As long as i had a 'Work Permit' that is.

[Ijustwannateach]

No use feeding the trolls, everyone.

[Begs]

No use feeding the trolls, everyone.

I agree.

Now, where is the offending Troll?

[Pudgimelon]

I didn't say that, go back and check and you'll see it was Pudgimelon one of the few people that agrees (kind of with you) please detract and apologise, thanks!

Woah, wait a minute there. I don't agree with Begs at all, he's a moron and an obvious troll. I can't believe you've actually wasted this much energy responding to his posts.

Don't feed the troll.

[Pudgimelon]

Phew, lucky for you, you're so perfect Pudgie.

As others have commented, you'll feel right at home here amongst the other anally retentive characters.

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

Hate me because you hate yourself.

[Ijustwannateach]

This thread has gone down the tubes. Mods, locking time?

"Steven"

[Begs]

Woah, wait a minute there. I don't agree with Begs at all, he's a moron and an obvious troll. I can't believe you've actually wasted this much energy responding to his posts.

How dare you Sir,

I have never been so humiliated in my life.

I feel so........violated.

[Pudgimelon]

Well I don't think anyone WANTS to work here without a WP, but the way the system works here (as Pudgi points out he worked here without a WP initially)

First, I did NOT work here without a permit. I lived next to the school I was going to be working at, and I during my first month I went there and OBSERVED.

I did not get paid, I did not teach classes, and I did not do anything that would have required a work permit.

Hanging out in a classroom taking notes, chatting with teachers about their methods, sitting in on meetings and lectures, taking books home from the school library for research, discussing what I'd learned with the school's directer, etc..... Sure these are all things I'd have to do when I started working there, but they are also things that any person could do in their spare time, which is what I had, since my class wasn't scheduled to start for a few months after I arrived.

If the school had decided not to hire me, I would not have viewed the time spent as being wasted, since I learned a great deal. I wish more schools in Thailand would adopt this approach, as it would greatly reduce the number of half-assed morons hanging around in schools pretending to be teachers.

An "apprenticeship" or unpaid observation period would be a great way for both school and teacher to evaluate each other. It would give schools time to prepare the necessary paperwork AND do the NECESSARY background checks, and it would give teachers time to do a little sniffing around for problems before getting locked into a contract.

Of course, you'll probably say, "some teachers can't survive for a month without pay!", to which I would reply: "Why the ###### would you fly halfway around the world without putting away enough money to survive for at least a few months???" Seems to me, if you're that frigg'n stupid, you shouldn't be pretending to be a teacher in the first place.

most of the time you don't have a choice.

OK, this line here is complete HORSES--T!!

You ALWAYS have a choice. But the problem is, most people make the wrong one and then put themselves in situations where they FEEL like they have no choice.

The first choice you have is: Come or Don't Come.

And my stance is that if you can't be bothered to get proper training (and therefore certification) to be a teacher, don't come here and PRETEND to be a teacher!

So you DO have a choice, and that choice is to STAY HOME and work a job that you ARE qualified to do.

The second choice you have is: Teach or Don't Teach.

It's very true that a lot of people come here with barely more than the shirts on their backs and then use teaching as a means to subsist here, but they don't teach because they have no other choice, they teach because they are making the WRONG choice.

If someone gets down on their luck in Thailand, the correct choice would be to GO HOME. Geesh, that should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense. If you spend your savings down below the price of a return ticket home, then YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!

And it's your own ###### fault for being so damned irresponsible. Don't compound the error by inflicting your idiocy on other people's children. Suck it up, call your mommy and have her Western Union you the cash to get home. Either that, or throw yourself on the embassy doorstep and beg them to send your sorry ass home.

But for the love of God, people, don't assume you have "no choice" but to teach. You've got lots of choices, unfortunately, most of them involve getting a real job back home. Sucks to be you.

Most schools due to the transient nature of a lot of teachers here will not even begin (or even think about beginning) the process until you've served (teaching in affect illegally) at least 3 month probation. It took me 9 months to obtain my WP.

Again, that's why I think an unpaid observation period would a be a good solution. It would weed out a lot of the transients who aren't serious about teaching and give the schools more confidence in the longevity of the people they do hire.

You admit there is a "transient" problem here in Thailand. It seems to me that the solution to that problem is not to find ways for teachers to work without permits, but instead to find ways to gleen out qualified and/or experienced teachers from all the riff-raff.

I'm not saying it's right, or wrong. But the teachers shouldn't really be blamed as much as the schools (and to an extent the MoE).

There's LOTS of blame to share around, so while I may seem to be picking on teachers in this thread, don't mistake me. I think the schools and the MOE are more to blame for this situation than teachers. Still, even if 9 out of 10 teachers are good, decent people who dedicate themselves to educating Thai youths, those 10% bad apples ruin it for everyone. And again, THAT'S why I would discourage people from coming here if they don't have a legitimate job (with a WP) lined up before coming here (or enough money in the back to live here without working for several months while they hunt for an ideal job and wait for that school to get their paperwork in order).

I know full qualified teacher (here) earning low wages

Which proves my point that all the unqualified teachers floating around in the job pool LOWER the wages for everyone.

Quite often you can earn better money without a WP as you're not tied to a school etc. It's a very difficult situation, if you have a wife and family here and you've been teaching for x amount of years with no problem (in regards to not having a WP) would YOU suddenly turn tail and head home because you're not 'keeping it real'?

Hang on a minute. You're forgetting something. This hypothetical family man has made a CHOICE to settle down and start a family in a country where he could not LEGALLY get a job.....

Again you're setting up a situation where you think the person has "no choice", but the fact is, they DID have a choice.... initially.

Think about all the illegal aliens living and working in countries like the US or UK. Does anybody ever pity them when immigration finally catches up with them and deports them??

How many countries do you know that say, "Sure, send us all your retired janitors and layed-off mill workers, we'll take 'em and set them loose in our classrooms!!"

Geesh, what makes you think you have THE RIGHT to be a teacher??? Just because you happened to be born in a native English-speaking country doesn't mean you can TEACH the language, so why is it so suprising that the Thai government wants you to produce some documentation that says you actually bothered to take the time to LEARN how to do your job?????

God ######, you sound like you're saying that Thailand OWES you a job. Well, it doesn't.

So if you can't prove that you belong in front of a classroom, then don't come here expecting that you'll be able to indefinitely pretend to be a teacher without ever actually learning how to do the job properly.

And if you're one of those "poor unfortunate slobs" who's been working here ILLEGALLY long enough to settle down and get some poor farm girl to squeeze out a few brats for you, and suddenly the big, mean MOE wants you to actually PROVE that you can do you job, well that's just TOO BAD. Sucks to be you. But you KNOWINGLY got yourself into that mess, so it's just too frigg'n bad if you couldn't take the time in all those years of illegal teaching to get the credentials or degree needed to get a legit work permit. In fact, if you're actually irresponsible enough to start raising a family in a country where you can't legally get a job, you should be ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!! How frigg'n stupid can you get?? So don't expect me to pity someone who's that frigg'n DUMB.

Doesn't matter if you're being paid or NOT (you need a WP in theory even if you're doing volunteer work), you may well find you did actually need a work permit for some of the things you mention.

No, I did not. The school I worked for was very careful about these types of things. Everything they did was right and proper because the kinds of parents they had at that school would not have accepted any sort of half-assed arrangement.

And Pudgi take it from me (and hopefully Phil will echo this) that the schools you've dealt with are the exception rather than the norm for most teachers here.

That may be true, but just because my experiences may be the exception, it doesn't invalidate what I am saying.

You, yourself, said that I was "lucky". Well, if that's the case, shouldn't we all be as "lucky"??

Also I know good teachers without WPs and bad teachers with, so your last sentence makes no sense at all (I wish it was that easy). You seem to have a limited scope of experience?

I never said that everyone who teaches without a work permit is a "bad teacher". In fact, I specifically said that it's probably true that MOST teachers who teach without permits are good teachers.

But what I am saying is that a MAJORITY of the bad apples, teach without permits. You close that loophole (and still find a way for good teachers who aren't certified to GET certified so they can keep their jobs) and you go a long ways towards improving the quality of the teaching pool in Thailand.

[Begs]

Wow, that was a long post.....................

Do people really read them when they are that long?

[mbkudu]

But what would i know........................

Precisely! Thanks!

Just checked with the Visa section.....seems that working without a work permit is illegal.

I thought that someone had mentioned that earlier.

Begs, lots of things are illegal in Thailand. All those Chinese, Korean and Japanese tour guides that you see taking groups of tourists to Wat Prakeo, and the Erawan shrine have no work permits. Why? Because it is a restricted profession, but they still 'get away with it.' If the companies they work for are well connected with the right ministries, then it's not a problem. Think of it this way; if your ass is covered, don't <deleted> worry about it. These guides are taking a much bigger risk than an English teacher is, because the tour guide profession is a job that a Thai is very capable of filling. An English teacher is not taking away a Thai job, so he or she should feel confident that there is not much to worry about. What could get an English teacher without a WP in trouble is if he did something to piss someone off, then that person could use the NO-WP status, if he was aware of it, as a leverage to blackmail the teacher.

It's a big wide world with lots of fun and games. If you play the game without stepping on others' toes, then all should be well.

[Ijustwannateach]

Pudgi, I think you could've removed all but the last 3 lines of your rant and it would've been more to the point and people might've actually read it.

I think part of the point of teachers on this thread is that it's mainly the gov't's fault so few work permits are available out there- because it's more profitable for them to do things the corrupt way than any other way. Even in Japan, it's technically illegal for most American workers to GET their jobs because it's not only illegal to work, but also to SEEK work while on a tourist visa- but the government knows this activity doesn't hurt Japan so it doesn't seek to prosecute it.

MBK, your post sums it up perfectly- but it's pearls before swine, friend, 'cause you're not talking to someone who actually is seeking reasonable conversation [and no, I'm not talking about you, Pudge, so stifle that rant! ].

"Steven"

[Pudgimelon]

I think part of the point of teachers on this thread is that it's mainly the gov't's fault so few work permits are available out there- because it's more profitable for them to do things the corrupt way than any other way.

It's the government's fault. It's the farangs' fault. It's the schools' fault. It's the parents' fault. Etc.....

Everyone has their opinion on who's to blame, and more importantly, who's MORE to blame, but the point I am making is that EVERYONE shares some blame for the current situation in Thailand.

But if you want to discuss the particular faults of each group, let's do that in another thread, shall we?

In this thread, someone is inquiring about working without a permit, and on THAT point, I come out strongly against. You are quite right that it is probably the government fault for making things so difficult, but if that's the case, then how is getting work illegally going to help solve that problem??????

If more teachers refused to work without permits, then the schools and parents would demand that the government loosen up it's policies to alleviate a teaching shortage. But as long as there are people willing to allow schools to underpay unqualified and uncertified transients, then nothing will change about the current situation.

What I'm hearing from you is an attempt to shift the blame to another group, but what I'm not hearing from you is an acknowledgement that teachers SHARE the blame for this situation. When a teacher agrees to work at a school ILLEGALLY, they are making a personal CHOICE to do so. They could refuse the job and look for something more legit, or go back home.

But don't give me any sob stories about teachers who've burned all their bridges back home and/or spent themselves down to their last 100 baht. That's their own ###### fault and it is NOT a legitimate excuse to take illegal work in a foreign country.

Also what I am not hearing from you is an acknowledgement that these "grey market" teachers have a negative impact on the entire teaching profession. Irregardless of whose "fault" it is, you should at least be able to acknowledge that these illegal teachers negatively impact the WAGES and (in many, NOT ALL, but many cases) the REPUTATIONS of legitimately licensed teachers.

Even "good" teachers who work illegally help to relieve the pressure on wages in our profession, and that allows the schools to continue paying us less that they should. It also allows the schools to treat teachers like dirt because they know they have a steady pool of unskilled labor waiting to fill any vacancies.

What kind of leverage does a good teacher have if there is no consequences to their quitting?? Again, that's partly the fault of schools and parents who can't tell the difference between a good white teacher and a bad white teacher (no, I'm not being racist, but I am pointing out the obvious fact that here in Thailand, race almost as big a factor in hiring as qualifications). However, it is also the fault of the TEACHER for accepting that job and thereby allowing the situation to perpetuate itself.

Until we, as a profession, start to actively discourage these fly-by-night teachers and also start to demand a more streamlined and teacher-friendly work permit process, the current situation in Thailand will continue. And while that may not matter to the transients, it matters a lot to those of us who are considering settling down here and facing with grim dread the prospect of putting our own kids through the Thai school system.

[kenkannif]

So Pudgi you got a Visa from day one when you taught at the three letter acronym school?

[Begs]

If more teachers refused to work without permits, then the schools and parents would demand that the government loosen up it's policies to alleviate a teaching shortage. But as long as there are people willing to allow schools to underpay unqualified and uncertified transients, then nothing will change about the current situation.

What I'm hearing from you is an attempt to shift the blame to another group, but what I'm not hearing from you is an acknowledgement that teachers SHARE the blame for this situation. When a teacher agrees to work at a school ILLEGALLY, they are making a personal CHOICE to do so. They could refuse the job and look for something more legit, or go back home.

But don't give me any sob stories about teachers who've burned all their bridges back home and/or spent themselves down to their last 100 baht. That's their own ###### fault and it is NOT a legitimate excuse to take illegal work in a foreign country.

Pudgi is quite right.

I will ask all the so called Teachers why they are in Thailand working ilegally, when all they do is discredit the English Teachers that are in fact legal ?

You are in fact keeping Pudgis wages at his present level.

Why would a school pay good wages to a good LEGAL Teacher when they can get an ILLEGAL worker to do the job for a bowl of rice ?

Go back to where you came from, get a proper Teaching qualification then get Legal.

I think the Immigration Police should bust a few Schools, weed out the criminal element, send them packing!

[kenkannif]

Why would a school pay good wages to a good LEGAL Teacher when they can get an ILLEGAL worker to do the job for a bowl of rice ?

Go back to where you came from, get a proper Teaching qualification then get Legal.

^ Erm it's generally down to the school to help obtain a teachers licence and thus work permit, it's not really something the teacher can do without the schools help so again you're on the wrong track.

Can you let me know what training/qualifications are needed to obtain a work permit? And also how the school will be able to issue the work permit if they're already at their quota?

[Begs]

Can you let me know what training/qualifications are needed to obtain a work permit? And also how the school will be able to issue the work permit if they're already at their quota?

Can you imagine using that argument in a Court of Law?

They knowingly and willingly break the laws of Thailand to Teach illegaly, as far as i am concerned they should be treated the same way as any other criminal.

Take him Down!

[kenkannif]

I don't think it would get that far to be honest, most schools smooth things over and as has been mentioned before Immigration are not targetting schools or teachers (sorry I'm sure you wish they were).

Yes, you've made your opinion on this matter abundantly clear, can you please stop now. You're not really saying anything new, or anything that can help resolve the problem (lock 'em up, lock 'em up....isn't really going to help, is it?).

Information, thoughts or ideas are welcome, constant doom and gloom (repeated over and over again) is not!

Please stop it! Thanks.

[Begs]

Information, thoughts or ideas are welcome, constant doom and gloom (repeated over and over again) is not!

Please stop it! Thanks.

What do you want to hear?

It's ok lads. just carry on breaking the laws of Thailand?

OK carry on breaking the laws of Thailand.

There, is that solving any problem ?

[kenkannif]

^ No, I don't want that, but on the other hand you've posted basically the same thing over and over again!

And how pray tell are you helping to solve the problem? You're not!

I'm locking this until such time as you feel you can post CONSTRUCTIVELY!

It's been going on for a long time, and unless something drastic happen it will continue to happen for a long time. Get over it, or do something constructive about it!

Edited August 22, 2004 by kenkannif

[Pudgimelon]

Erm it's generally down to the school to help obtain a teachers licence and thus work permit, it's not really something the teacher can do without the schools help so again you're on the wrong track.

Actually, you're on the wrong track.

Saying that it's "up to the school's" to obtain the license and permit is kinda like saying that a hospital is solely responsible for getting a doctor's medical license or that a law firm is solely responsible for getting a lawyer a license to practice law.

Doctors and lawyers are personally responsible for making sure they are legally able to work in that state. And while it's true that they cannot do so without assistance from their employer (interships, letters of recommendation, etc...), it is also true that if a doctor practices medicine without a license BOTH the hospital and the doctor would be in trouble.

Now, again, unlike SOME people on this chicken-little forum, I'm not saying that the sky will fall on anyone who teaches without a license. Like you said, the personal consequences are almost non-existent. However, I'm not talking about personal situations. To me, this is a "big picture" issue. And when you take a look at things in the long view, illegal work perpetuates some of the main problems within the Thai education system. And changes in that system will only occur when professional educators start demanding legal recognition (via legitimate and easily attained work permits) and also start discouraging illegal transients from lowering the pay scale and professional standards of all teachers.

Someone in desparate need of a job may only think about keeping a roof over their head, and so they may be willing to take any crappy job that comes along, but that is ultimately short-sighted and selfish. These people hurt the profession, but worst of all, they hurt the students.

Because while MOST of these people may be good teachers (which still hurts other teachers by lowering their pay), the lax enforcement of immigration/employment regulations allows thousands of BAD and/or transient teachers to slip into the system and wreck havoc on the educations of thousands of young children. So when good teachers take bad jobs, they help to perpetuate a broken system.

You've also mentioned several times that if a school's at their quota, there's "nothing a teacher can do". THAT'S WRONG!!!!

If the school is at its WP quota, the teacher can always NOT work for that school!!!!!

And THAT is the point I'm trying to make, and which you seem to be missing. If the school cannot provide the teacher with the necessary documents to work legally in this country, then the teacher can always NOT accept that position.

Eventually, if schools and parents go without teachers long enough, there might be enough public pressure to get the MOE to change it's archaic permit policies. But if teacher continue to accept illegal work, the MOE and schools will NEVER change!

So while you are correct in stating that a teacher cannot get a work permit or license without help from a school, you are incorrect in saying that if a school doesn't offer it, there's "nothing a teacher can do."

He/she can always go home if they can't find legal work here.