Bible Thumpers, Proselytizers Special Visa Or Voa?

[corkscrew]

If you could put the spokespersons for all the religions of the world in one great big room and allowed them to speak on why their religion was the only correct one what do you think would happen?

The speakers probably would not change their minds. The Catholic would say his was the only one; Baptist the same; Mormon the same, Suni the same, Shiite the same, etc, etc, etc.

An atheist is someone who has just one less religion than any given theist. Once any given theist understands why he rejects the other religions of the world he will understand why the atheist rejects his religion.

The more you learn about different religions the more likely you are to reject all of them.

[meemiathai]

I really don't mind what people believe.

But isn't it worrying if everyone around you starts to believe that there is an invisible man around?

[Ricardo]

I really don't mind what people believe.

But isn't it worrying if everyone around you starts to believe that there is an invisible man around?

Careful - he might be looking over your shoulder, as you type this.

[Dakhar]

I don't know, a belief system that makes its young people move to tropical countries and wear black suits to visit "heathens" to convert souls to a group that wears special Mormon underwear, big it might be, but it is flirting with being a cult:

http://mormoncult.org/

I guess I am not the first person to think of it that way.

I would agree about Mormons being a false religion.

I will say that they do not MAKE anyone do anything. These guys have a choic.

If I was them, I would wear shorts

However, again when speaking of Christians, I have never met one that tried to get someone to turn against their family.

LDS is a false religion....? Ok granted, so what pray tell is the true religion? If there is a false, is there a true, and if it is true what makes it so?

[menostay]

TheWholeWorld3mb.wmvSo how much freedom of Expression should we eliminate? Most everyone agrees that a man has a right to his beliefs. Denying others the freedom of EXPRESSION must put a lie to the statement that others have a right to their beliefs does it not?

Pharohs, Caesars, Kings, Mussolini, Franco, Stalin, Mao, Hitler and many modern men have and would limit the peaceful expression of a man's beliefs privately and publicly.

As poor as we are at understanding thanks is owed to the wiser men that have written into law and constitution the freedom of expression is a cardinal right. Thanks is due to the rulers and religious leaders of Thailand for recognizing that human right and it's dignity as well.

[corkscrew]

I really don't mind what people believe.

But isn't it worrying if everyone around you starts to believe that there is an invisible man around?

Most smart people don't believe in these weird gods...

[corkscrew]

I don't know, a belief system that makes its young people move to tropical countries and wear black suits to visit "heathens" to convert souls to a group that wears special Mormon underwear, big it might be, but it is flirting with being a cult:

http://mormoncult.org/

I guess I am not the first person to think of it that way.

I would agree about Mormons being a false religion.

I will say that they do not MAKE anyone do anything. These guys have a choic.

If I was them, I would wear shorts

However, again when speaking of Christians, I have never met one that tried to get someone to turn against their family.

LDS is a false religion....? Ok granted, so what pray tell is the true religion? If there is a false, is there a true, and if it is true what makes it so?

Hey, there is none! God does not exist...it is a total fiction. Give it a good laugh guys...when we die...we die: there is nothing afterwards.

[Jingthing]

Here is a vote for agnostic. We can't know there are deities. We can't know there aren't. Some religious people say just look at the ocean, look at the mountains, look at a sexy man/woman and you know there is a God. See what I mean about their irrationality?

Edited December 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[Dakhar]

As the same argument applies, you can not prove there is anything after this life, and no one else can really prove there is.

I always say, no one has ever come back to tell about it.... and really if they did, no one would believe them any how. So to argue about it, is a big waste of time.

[Gimbo]

TheWholeWorld3mb.wmvSo how much freedom of Expression should we eliminate? Most everyone agrees that a man has a right to his beliefs. Denying others the freedom of EXPRESSION must put a lie to the statement that others have a right to their beliefs does it not?

Pharohs, Caesars, Kings, Mussolini, Franco, Stalin, Mao, Hitler and many modern men have and would limit the peaceful expression of a man's beliefs privately and publicly.

As poor as we are at understanding thanks is owed to the wiser men that have written into law and constitution the freedom of expression is a cardinal right. Thanks is due to the rulers and religious leaders of Thailand for recognizing that human right and it's dignity as well.

You forgot to mention every pope since the Catholic church was founded on your list of those wanting to curb the freedom of expression.

Another right we have is freedom of religion. Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion. People have a right to not have their lives meddled with becouse other peoples religion has this as one of their main presepts or whatever you should call it.

So when people are prozelytizing, or making faith based laws, they are in fact breaking one of our basic human rights.

You have freedom of expression of course. Nobody here is denying you that right. But in expressing yourself, you should do so with a form of respect.

And when missionaries are using their freedom of expression to belittle, and offend other religions, it's simply offensive.

So express yourself all you want, but do so in fora that welcome it. Inviting yourself into other peoples home to peddle your gods is simply disrespectfull!

[MrSquigle]

give them a break, they peddle around on their bikes, causing no pollution, more than most you lot can say.

[corkscrew]

Here is a vote for agnostic. We can't know there are deities. We can't know there aren't. Some religious people say just look at the ocean, look at the mountains, look at a sexy man/woman and you know there is a God. See what I mean about their irrationality?

I can not prove that there is not a teapot flying around Neptune...but I do not believe there is one doing that. Yes, I can not prove there is not a god....but I do not believe there is a god.

Edited December 1, 2007 by corkscrew

[Jingthing]

Here is a vote for agnostic. We can't know there are deities. We can't know there aren't. Some religious people say just look at the ocean, look at the mountains, look at a sexy man/woman and you know there is a God. See what I mean about their irrationality?

I can not prove that there is not a teapot flying around Neptune...but I do not believe there is one doing that. Yes, I can not prove there is not a god....but I do not believe there is a god.

Right. Rationally, it appears unlikely. But here is the rub. We are human animals embodied with human brains which are predetermined to be limited to what human brains can do. Maybe God is all around us but our eyes are not designed to be able see her? We can't know. We are limited. That last step of totally ruling out the possibility of divinity seems as arrogant to me as pushing the idea that you know for sure that your God is the only God. I guess I am a missionary for the agnostic view.

I realize that affirming agnosticism sounds wishy washy to atheists, much like those who claim to be bisexuals sounds like a cop out to gay people, but I just don't see any reason to go all the way to dogmatic atheism.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[corkscrew]

Here is a vote for agnostic. We can't know there are deities. We can't know there aren't. Some religious people say just look at the ocean, look at the mountains, look at a sexy man/woman and you know there is a God. See what I mean about their irrationality?

I can not prove that there is not a teapot flying around Neptune...but I do not believe there is one doing that. Yes, I can not prove there is not a god....but I do not believe there is a god.

Right. Rationally, it appears unlikely. But here is the rub. We are human animals embodied with human brains which are predetermined to be limited to what human brains can do. Maybe God is all around us but our eyes are not designed to be able see her? We can't know. We are limited. That last step of totally ruling out the possibility of divinity seems as arrogant to me as pushing the idea that you know for sure that your God is the only God. I guess I am a missionary for the agnostic view.

I realize that affirming agnosticism sounds wishy washy to atheists, much like those who claim to be bisexuals sounds like a cop out to gay people, but I just don't see any reason to go all the way to dogmatic atheism.

Let me ask you this. Do you really want there to be a god...or, would you be happier if it did not exist? What is scarier? Some place nothing after you die...or somewhere with infinite joy/infinite torture (depending on whether you were right or wrong in this world).

Do you believe in a god who will give you infinite pleasure for worshiping him....and a god who will burn you for eternity for masterbating?

Religon? Silly!

Edited December 1, 2007 by corkscrew

[Jingthing]

Do I want there to be a God? Good question I have not considered Yes, if it meant good things in the afterlife, like being reunited with my loved ones, being reincarnated and having a better life next time, that sort of thing. No if those bible thumpers are right, in which case, meet you in hel_l!!!

Lets face it, alot of people play along with the bible thumpers of all flavors to hedge their bets in case they are right in case that keeps them out of eternal damnation. Eternal damnation is a very powerful weapon to hold over people, even worse than murder.

Bottom line, doesn't matter what we want. Out of our control. Yeah, rationally it is a low odds thing.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[corkscrew]

Do I want there to be a God? Good question I have not considered Yes, if it meant good things in the afterlife, like being reunited with my loved ones, being reincarnated and having a better life next time, that sort of thing. No if those bible thumpers are right, in which case, meet you in hel_l!!!

Bottom line, doesn't matter what we want. Out of our control. Yeah, rationally it is a low odds thing.

How about those really good people who will go to heaven...but you really did not like them and you would prefer never to see them again?

A lot of people never want to see their mother again...hey, the cun_t was a bitch to my wife!

[cmsally]

To me it would seem the whole missionary thing is based on insecurity. It is a numbers game as well as an inability to observe the world in anything other than 2 dimensions, which are for and against. If you are not for us , you must be against us. Therefore get as many people on our side as possible to quash the opposition.

Most people who have a multidimensional and intelligent view of the world are mostly secure in their beliefs but with enough basis in rationality to know what can be proven or not.

This bidimensional view of the world is fed by fear and unsubstantiated knowledge and lies at the route of many society's problems today. Certain teddy bears and a few wars come to mind.

Sorry to diverge but this whole debate reminds me of a very funny episode (actually more than one) of a friend of a friend who was very into Auras (those coloured things around peoples heads which some profess to see). If he was in a plane and didn't like the look of someones aura, he would in fact get off and take the next. This also applied to other situations in his daily routine. I once asked him, if he was aware that the situation was potentially not ideal, why he didn't warn others. And his reply was that he was aware that his powers were rather special and could not be substantiated by others, so it was not his place to interfere in other people's lives on the basis of something they didn't understand. If people wanted to come to him and have their aura explained etc that was OK, but it was not his place to meddle in other peoples lives without their request. Now he was a pretty strange guy but even he could grasp the concept of non interference, so it can't be that difficult.

[meemiathai]

What exactly heaven is like? Are there beauties running around everywhere and I am the only man there? I like this idea. Give me a pen and a book please.

[jetjock]

What exactly heaven is like? Are there beauties running around everywhere and I am the only man there? I like this idea. Give me a pen and a book please.

You are a little too late for the virgin beauties as all the terrorists have already used all 72 of them.

[cm-happy]

would it not be interesting if a Bible thumper or proselyitzer joined the discussion

edit for spelling

Edited December 1, 2007 by cm-happy

[Dakhar]

To me it would seem the whole missionary thing is based on insecurity. It is a numbers game as well as an inability to observe the world in anything other than 2 dimensions, which are for and against. If you are not for us , you must be against us. Therefore get as many people on our side as possible to quash the opposition.

To me, organized religion is a financial game/business. The more paying tithe (sp) the more money there is to buy land, buid churches etc etc. $ = growth. Growth = $

[toptuan]

would it not be interesting if a Bible thumper or proselyitzer joined the discussion

Daniel in the Lion's Den. You kidding?

[canuckamuck]

Mt 7:6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

PS: Daniel was unharmed in the lion's den

[Thaiboxer]

I used to get people like that in the States (university years) trying to get me to join their bible discussion groups. They basically all approached me in the same manner, so I could more or less see it coming. They weren't holding bibles and wearing robes, but they could be quite persistent. I had a guy following me for a while as I was trying to politely escape. He was like an American car salesman...very pushy!

Edited December 2, 2007 by Thaiboxer

[kmart]

Someone's karma ran over my dogma yesterday.

[canuckamuck]

Someone's karma ran over my dogma yesterday.

Because your dogma was chasing a catechist

[PeaceBlondie]

I've never been a missionary, but I have been an evangelical minister. Even worked briefly for Youth For Christ, doing evangelistic work. There is a huge spectrum of types of evangelism, types of missionary work, types of Christianity, etc. One size does not fit all, and one broadside insult does not fit all. In fact, some of the statements made here by unbelievers are absurdly ignorant and disrespectful.

If you find something spiritual or personal that really improves your life, that makes you a better person in the world, you're almost surely going to want to share that with other people. Even if you find a great bargirl, or a great hamburger, or website forum, or Southeast Asian country. Millions of believers have advanced university degrees, understand the world well enough to come across continents to share their good fortune with the less fortunate, and they read advanced textbooks that you could never understand. I met an Asian missionary who speaks five languages and has worked in many countries, and he lives modestly in a small home with his family while pastoring a local church for very little money.

But if it will make your day to insult good people, go ahead. And I'll join you in condemning the actions of the 2% who are fakes and hypocrites. By the way, your understanding of "hypocrisy" probably stems from the prophet who most roundly condemned it, Jesus of Nazareth.

[Gimbo]

I've never been a missionary, but I have been an evangelical minister. Even worked briefly for Youth For Christ, doing evangelistic work. There is a huge spectrum of types of evangelism, types of missionary work, types of Christianity, etc. One size does not fit all, and one broadside insult does not fit all. In fact, some of the statements made here by unbelievers are absurdly ignorant and disrespectful.

But they all prozelytize, but being a believing heathen, I assume this was not adressed to me

If you find something spiritual or personal that really improves your life, that makes you a better person in the world, you're almost surely going to want to share that with other people. Even if you find a great bargirl, or a great hamburger, or website forum, or Southeast Asian country. Millions of believers have advanced university degrees, understand the world well enough to come across continents to share their good fortune with the less fortunate, and they read advanced textbooks that you could never understand.

You really got the art of belittling other people down to an artform as evangelical minister, did'nt you?

I met an Asian missionary who speaks five languages and has worked in many countries, and he lives modestly in a small home with his family while pastoring a local church for very little money.

So he speaks 5 languages. Whats so impressive about that. My wife, with the standard village girl level education speaks 4 languages. As for pastoring his little church, that's all fine. Ass long as he keeps is pastoring limited to those who actually follow his special version of the so called message.

But if it will make your day to insult good people, go ahead. And I'll join you in condemning the actions of the 2% who are fakes and hypocrites. By the way, your understanding of "hypocrisy" probably stems from the prophet who most roundly condemned it, Jesus of Nazareth.

Well, telling somebody that their religion is no good, you should instead follow mine, is the ultimate insult.

I bet you yourself felt pretty insulted by some of what was said about the christian religion in this thread. And it prompted you to write something in it's, and it's followers defence. A natural reaction. Well, that is the same reaction I get when someone, mainly christian prozelytizers of various churches and sects tell me that my religion is no good, that it is evil, that I am misinformed, led astray etc.

So when someone like that comes to my house, or they stop me on the street to give me their message, I tell them to go to the hel_l they came from and learn some manners of respect for their fellow man.

[PeaceBlondie]

I did not say that anybody's belief or non-belief is no good. I do think that some of the nonbelievers here have seriously insulted Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, et al.

I'm sorry if any believers have told you your 'belief' or lack of belief was no good, or that you were going to Hel-. I never have used such techniques, nor worked with those who did. Never in all my years have I had anybody come to my door and tell me that. Sorry you had other experiences.

But lately it seems I have been bombarded at my door (virtually, by the internet) by nonbelievers telling me that I am not going to heaven. Who's preaching what to whom lately?

[lopburi3]

The question was "is there a visa" and it was answered in post #2. Since that time everyone has had time to make the usual political/religious point as they view them and now is the time for closure - it is no longer Thai related.