Does Being Gay Define You As A Person

[cm-happy]

Gay? Does it define you as a person? Defines, outlook on life, philosophy, political persuation, morals, ethics, etc or just sexual preferance, likes, dislikes, overall life style. Am trying to think of something to make this Thai related, and will do so with a follow up topic.

[ProThaiExpat]

Perhaps this thread is whether one lives a "gay lifestyle" or not. I choose to live my life first, being gay is only a small segment of that life. Others make a cause of it, act differently than the normal "straight person" and almost make it a cause celbre.

To each his own. If anyone suggested that being gay "defined me", I would be insulted.

[cm-happy]

Perhaps this thread is whether one lives a "gay lifestyle" or not. I choose to live my life first, being gay is only a small segment of that life. Others make a cause of it, act differently than the normal "straight person" and almost make it a cause celbre.

To each his own. If anyone suggested that being gay "defined me", I would be insulted.

And what exactly is a "gay lifestyle"? spending 24/7 looking for guys to shag?

[PeaceBlondie]

No single word defines me, nor should anyone be definable by one word. Father, grandfather, teacher, retiree, pensioned bureaucrat, sportbike rider, blond ponytail, gay, Christian, silly, educated, ....the list goes on.

I don't think we'd get a consensus here about what a gay lifestyle is. I suspect most definitions would include being open about the fact that, among many other things, we're gay and unashamed. I'm shameless!

[peekint]

I like the "Gay and Unashamed" take, PeaceBlondie. G.A.U. (I think we should make T-Shirts!)

However, I want to latch onto the wording, unintentional though it may be, of the topic. "Does being gay define you as a person". The topic doesn't ask "Do you DEFINE YOURSELF as Gay", which is a very different question.

And, in the state of the world today, even in this nirvana we call Thailand, I'd say being Gay does define you as a person, even if you don't want it to. The individuals, culture and society around you supply the definition.

ProThaiExpat, whether or not you like it, being Gay defines you in Thailand because:

1. you cannot marry your same-sex partner (don't confuse that about whether you want to or not - with very few exceptions around the world, you just can't)

2. you cannot immigrate to Thailand based on your relationship with a Thai person of the same sex

3. you cannot buy health insurance from AIA insurance in Thailand AT ALL if you are honest on the application

4. your same-sex partner will not receive a share of any pension or gov't old-age stipend when you pass away (or you of his)

etc. etc. etc. (it would be interesting to make a more complete list)

From my point of view, it takes no effort on my part to make my being Gay a cause celebre...

It is others who see my Gayness on my sleeve because they think it is strange, unacceptable, or just plain shameful to be Gay. That's their problem, not mine.

Yes, I'm not afraid to walk arm and arm with my husband (we were married outside Thailand). But, I see lots of male-female couples walking arm-in-arm, too.

Yes, I'm not shy to ask for "one big bed" when we check in to a hotel. But don't straight couples do that, too?

Yes, if someone asks me what I did for the weekend, I tell them my husband and I went to see รากแหงสยาม. But wouldn't any straight married person you know answer the same way? (Of course, if you knew my husband, I'd just answer Tom and I ...)

I just don't see speaking plainly as being confronting or activist. It's just honest.

That means that I act no differently than a "normal" (telling word, isn't it?) straight person, right?

And yet, I think most would say I'm just the kind of person ProThaiexpat is referring to in his post.

As long as I am true to myself, it doesn't matter whether I use being Gay to define myself as a person. Others around me will define me as Gay.

Of course, I could always 'control my communications', neuter my pronouns, and otherwise do things with my words and actions that could lead others around me to make false assumptions. Then I would seem to be acting as a "normal" (ugh) straight person most of the time, but I'd still be free to sneak off and get same-sex nookie in my private time.

Now to ME, that sounds very seriously like being Gay defining you as a person. I'm not up to all that effort!

[Jingthing]

Yes, I think we are different, so it is a big part of our identities. I wouldn't say it that way, defines us, though, but I do think the implications are MUCH greater than what genital type we are attracted to.

[jdinasia]

Being in Thailand and being gay does define me to a certain extent. But NOT the way it defines some people

I don't live in a gay ghetto, I don't frequent Silom, etc etc. I am active with some groups that are gay but for the most part .. gay is just part of who I am like living in Thailand is

[ProThaiExpat]

peekent: Excellent perspective and spot on. Now that you have pointed out the different ways the question can be posed, it is clear I answered on a personal level, how I define myself, not how society defines me.

I was a closeted professional for many years but always maintained that I was a professional who happened to be gay rather than a gay professional and that distinction is at the heart of my response.

I support you 100% in you acting exactly as you please as long as it is with decorum and dignity. Tangential questions raised by thinking along these lines are "do we modify our normal behavior to accommodate society", 'are we militant in our daily life in an effort to have society become more tolerant to our gayness?' etc.

I think my Thai mate uses various different words to describe our relationship from husband to partner to boss when speaking of me to Thais, probably not to lose face or make others uncomfortable. I do the same. I am not saying this is good, in fact, in the long run it probably delays ultimate acceptance by society. I admire those who are "in your face" about their being gay, they are the true courageous ones who advance social acceptance.

I am in a position in life now where I do not need to accomodate anyone or their attitudes and thus am as "gay" in my daily life as is natural for me. I am not kidding myself, being 188cm tall and with a lover who is 160cm and who looks fifty years my junior, that when people see us in public there can be little doubt in those who are aware of such thngs.

As you said, their problem. At a formal gala New Years Even Party at the former Sheraton, my daughter and her husband and my mate and I had a front row table and acted as any other double dating couple would. The only modification was I didn't dance with my lover as he doesn't dance ballroom nor would it be comfortable for our size differential, otherwise I would have. That sort of activity is a positive role model in my view. Thus, I would suggest, as you have, that being yourself should be your guide and one never knows what influence your are having if any.

I have always maintained that people in general are so self centered that what they see in public only occupies their thoughts for a matter of seconds, so why live differently to accomodate their fleeting thoughts. I do feel that gays are far more "acceptable" to most heterosexuals if they get to know you first, before learning your gay, than having you brought to their attention as "that gay".

Edited December 5, 2007 by ProThaiExpat

[Ijustwannateach]

There are people whose sexuality seems to take over their identity in all areas of their lives- being "out" is like a full-time 24/7 job for them. The reasons can be varied- some of them have a political mission; for others it's a constant social quest- and I can't say there's anything wrong with such lifestyles, but I have noticed on the occasions when I have become close to such types that there isn't a lot else going on there. It's as if they are trying to fill a huge general gap in their live with the fact of their sexuality.

Like PB, for self-description I could find many different expressions, but the very first label that comes to mind isn't usually "a gay man," and I don't think that's altogether a bad thing.

"S"

[peekint]

There are people whose sexuality seems to take over their identity in all areas of their lives- being "out" is like a full-time 24/7 job for them. The reasons can be varied- some of them have a political mission; for others it's a constant social quest- and I can't say there's anything wrong with such lifestyles, but I have noticed on the occasions when I have become close to such types that there isn't a lot else going on there. It's as if they are trying to fill a huge general gap in their live with the fact of their sexuality.

Like PB, for self-description I could find many different expressions, but the very first label that comes to mind isn't usually "a gay man," and I don't think that's altogether a bad thing.

"S"

*PREFACE* I've rewritten this post over and over to make it as inoffensive as possible. You should have read the first draft! But frankly, I found Ijustwannateach's post so insulting (to no one in particular, but to Gay people in general), that it's been hard to be Pollyanna in my reply. I apologize in advance if anyone takes offense at what I've written. It's meant to be expostiory, not accusative or confrontational.

*********

Seems to me that, when I lived in the states, being Gay had to be a 24/7 thing. Law, culture and society made sure of that. If you were not aware of how you were defined by society, you found yourself without health care, in physical danger, unable to meet potential love interests, and otherwise a potential outcast. Every moment, you had to "filter" your output: whether it was appearance, demeanor, language or association. What a bunch of hard work it was!

When I moved to San Fran after Harvey Milk was murdered, I learned how much less work it was to be myself rather than consider whether every word or action would invite ridicule, discrimination, or, at worse, attack. After a year or so of living in the Gay Ghetto that was SF in those days, I unconsciously walked hand in hand with my BF of the time in a mall in South San Francisco, a small suburb spitting distance from the city. We had a beer bottle thrown at us to punctuate the verbal abuse. I realized then how isolated and special our SF community was. I dreamed that some day in the future I'd be able to be myself anywhere in the States. Thirty years later, that "some day" has still not come.

Living in Thailand, my husband and I have that paradise that I dreamed of 30 years ago. He's always so fascinated when we travel internationally that the whole world isn't like Thailand for Gay people. "Why do they care?" is his bewildered question... and then ... "What the <deleted> business is it of theirs anyway?"

Am I still a 24/7 Gay? Yeah. Even though I no longer have to think about my words, actions, and demeanor, I still want to live my life consciously in a way which does not hide, discriminate, or in other ways make young Gay people feel that have to be any other than who they are.

I don't think it's because I have an empty life to fill. What would make anyone think that just because someone considers themselves Gay 24/7, it's only because their life has some sort of "huge gap" to fill? It seems to me a rather condescending and self-important conclusion.

But maybe you're right. I always think self-examination is important.

Lets see... I don't have a former wife or any kids from a former marriage, since I never tried living the "straight life". I was lucky enough to know at an early age I had no interest (despite the best efforts of Debbie and others who tried to steal me from my high school BF with her ample feminine wiles). Is that the gap I am filling? It certainly earns some 24/7 points. (and 365 points, too!)

I own businesses in the USA and China, but they both provide health insurance and other benefits to same-sex couples on the same basis as opposite-sex couples. I guess I get the 24/7 label there, huh? I should just be like any other business and screw the Gays. After all, I don't have same-sex with my business.

I write novels, but they do have Gay characters.I get a 24/7 sticker there. I guess I should I leave them out since when I write, I'm an author, not a Gay person.

I have a long-term relationship, but it's with a man, and it is 24/7, so I definitely get a big scarlet 24/7 there. I suppose when I'm not actually WITH my husband, I should pretend he doesn't exist since I can't be Gay with him if he's not there.

I build houses here and restored old houses in San Fran, and I like them to be well designed and tastefully decorated. Whopper 24/7 there, I think. When I'm building houses, I don't actually have Gay sex in them, so I probably should try to suppress all those things that straight folks attribute to Gay people, like design sense and good taste. (Do you think Tim Gunn is Gay, or just a snazzy dresser?)

I dunno, when I go to bed at night, I've always been so busy being Gay all day that I just can't find the gap I'm filling. Guess if I stop being Gay 24/7 I'll have a better chance of figuring it out.

C'mon guys, isn't any Gay person, whether of the flavor who filters or the flavor who doesn't, a 24/7 Gay?

Are we still to define ourselves as Gay via the Catholic Church interpretation? That is, are you only Gay when an actual physical act of penetration with a member of the opposite sex is taking place?

I think US Senator Larry Craig might especially support that definition. He's surely not 24/7 Gay!

( http://blog.washingtonpost.com/sleuth/2007...ll_not_gay.html )

[peekint]

I support you 100% in you acting exactly as you please as long as it is with decorum and dignity. Tangential questions raised by thinking along these lines are "do we modify our normal behavior to accommodate society", 'are we militant in our daily life in an effort to have society become more tolerant to our gayness?' etc.

I think my Thai mate uses various different words to describe our relationship from husband to partner to boss when speaking of me to Thais, probably not to lose face or make others uncomfortable. I do the same. I am not saying this is good, in fact, in the long run it probably delays ultimate acceptance by society.

PTE, thanks for your supportive reply. I might ask who determines what is decorous and dignified? My answer would be it's a compromise between one's own values and level of respect for the people one is interacting with. I'm much more likely to modify any behavior or communication, whether with respect to Gayness or not, when I'm around people I respect. I think that's just called being polite. I'd be interested to hear your take on that. You seem to have thought a lot about this and have quite an amazing history.

The Thai language has the genderless designation แฟน which most Thais use to refer to their wife, husband, girlfriend or boyfriend (some seem to have all four!) According to some language history I've read, the existence of this genderless noun for the partner in a loving relationship which includes sexual relations is not chance. It arises from the common practice here of polyamory. Historically, it was not uncommon for Thai men and women to have same-sex and opposite-sex lovers, as well as men having multiple wives (bigamy was criminalized, in law if not in practice, only in 1932). My husband almost invariable refers to me as his แฟน, though when we are with our Gay Thai friends I become his husband - สามี , ผัว.

Of course, when he refers to me as แฟน when I'm present, there is no ambiguity in the meaning at all for the listener! The sexual component is inherent to the word.

[Ijustwannateach]

Pkint, as you have massively misinterpreted my small post, I will not bother to elaborate with a longer post.

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm not sure what Ijustwannateach exactly meant by being gay 24/7, but I have my own idea of what it means. We all have 24/7 lives in which we work, eat, sleep, talk, philosophize, exercise, etc., and it's not all about sex (well, not for most human beings). As a federal employee and a tax accountant, I spent the day making determinations, discussing tax law on the phone (did that 42 hours a week for 18 months!), computing tax adjustments (5 years full time), managing employees, etc. In about two years of managing 56 employees (of which one was a lesbian), sexual preference work problems surfaced for about 8 minutes, total.

What food I eat, Thai or farang, isn't a matter of my sexual preference. I am unconscious when asleep, and don't recall my dreams. When I taught, I wasn't paying attention to anybody's sexual preferences unless someone brought it up (maybe three minutes in two years).

IJWT's reference to some drama queens who are always hogging the stage front and center, is on target. They have a shallow life that consists of themself. If this were Houston or San Angelo Texas instead of anywhere in Thailand, you might serve your gay pride well and be a 24/7 martyr for a cause that is not yet won in America. But spending every waking hour in Thailand as Miss Most Outrageous, Screeching, Hand Waving Katoey of The Century is uncalled for.

Peekint, I enjoyed your post and agree with your main points. For some of us (especially us sex addicts), it sometimes seems that all of our existence is about whom we fornicate. But in our saner moments, we know better. If our sexual activities in fact dominate our waking thoughts and compel us to act our sexually all the time, we're just hopeless addicts.

I'm a gay man, 24/7. I'm also ten other identities, 24/7.

[paulsmithson]

My son is gay! when I found out I was gutted!

Two weeks later my brain restarted!

He was the same baby I had held in my arms and loved sooo very much.The same person I taught to drive. The same person that loved me as a father-------(even though I was a crap father)

I love my son, fortunately he is in a long term relationship and is very happy!

He does not go around screwing any lovely he can ---as I did.

I think he is a better man than me!

You only need to look at other varied web sites to see what perversions guys get up to with girls----and they condemn gay people--- so sad

W hay anyones sexuality is is their business and theirs alone--- I have Met men who flaunt their gayness. why I do not know. Nor do I know what sexuality has to do with any other aspect of life.

I could be with a woman and buggering her and no one would know!

Even worse I could be beating her up regularly!

Choose your own lifestyle and allow others who are not the same to live in peace.

We are all different!

[Jingthing]

We don't choose to be gay. Gay isn't a "lifestyle" but at least you're trying.

[farang prince]

I'm bisexual. It doesn't define me. It is what I am. I'm at an age where I don't even think about it. Maybe that's being comfortable in one's skin or maybe it's senility.

[ProThaiExpat]

peekint: IJWT's comment "There are people whose sexuality seems to take over their identity" probably could have been better stated by prefacing "people" with the word "some". I think you took his post personally and believe me, as one who takes posts personally, when they shouldn't, I know the hurt engendered by such careless generalities. At least he didn't characterize your entire post as "rubbish", as one of mine was recently. Some months ago, I was taken to task by a number of posters who criticized me as a person, as well as my post, because I referred to the love of my life as "my Thai", a term that previously had been met with approval by other posters. I still don't see why it is so derogatory, so perhaps I live in a parallel world of my own making, out of touch with the mainstream? I am not unhappy with that, if the mainstream can find fault with a term which means to me, a choice of one Thai, among all others, to be the center of my life.

Your implied inquiry regarding my experience leads me to mention a favorite response I used in my younger and more aggressive days, when I traveled internationally on vacation with my 30 year younger, 19 year old b/f.

Often on European vacations, you cross paths with the same traveling tourist during a given space in time and casual friendships develop. When the fellow traveler was likable, my response to the inevitable question (in those days this was polite speak) "Is that your nephew"? was "Yes". If I didn't like them for any number of reasons, my response would be "No, we are lovers, we have been together since he was nine!!" What joy it gave me to see the discomfiture

engendered. A collateral benefit is that tourist stayed far away from then on. I drank in those days so I suspect there was much "bottle" courage involved.

Today, no such "bottle" is required, however, here in Thailand, not speaking much Thai, I haven't been so approached.

When I have been asked about my love interest, it has necessarily been in English, usually a Thai lady who was just being polite and trying to show interest and then the response usually is "We live together" or "We are together" or "We take care of each other".

Edited December 6, 2007 by ProThaiExpat

[Scott]

The issue isn't really whether you define yourself as gay nearly as much as how society and the institutions in it define you. These are the things that make our life easier or more difficult.

As a gay person, I have been terminated from a job because they "suspected" I was gay. I worked for an employer here in Thailand that suggested that we needed to fire all the gays (obviously oblivious to my orientation). Such things certainly make one question their definition of self.

At this particular juncture in my life, I can't really be bothered much by what other people think. Sometimes I answer truthfully and sometimes I just don't answer. Sometimes I am humerous with things like: "Well, don't worry, if I am, I certainly wouldn't find you of any interest!"

When we consider the amount of time males think about sex during the course of an average day (straight or gay), it's quite substantial and therefore an important definition in who I am.

[PeaceBlondie]

I used that nephew line once at the department store (in the children's dept. no less) when my boyfriend was a very short, small 25 year old Vietnamese.

[ProThaiExpat]

It's oft said "that great minds think alike".

It might be productive to start a thread with "one liners" that are effective in like situations.

One of the best, in another context, was a response made to me by a high school teacher in Tokyo who was an immigrant Roman lady with PHDs in Romance Languages and Renaissance Art, who responded to my smart ass comment regarding her huge ring "What kind of ring is that Dr. Damien?" The reply, "Glass you Ass"!! It was Topaz as you may have guessed.

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks, PTE, I think that sums up the misunderstanding. Pkint, I really didn't mean you personally (and frankly I wasn't thinking of anyone I know on this board when I wrote that), but sorry anyway if you felt I was insulting.

[Steve2UK]

I support you 100% in you acting exactly as you please as long as it is with decorum and dignity. Tangential questions raised by thinking along these lines are "do we modify our normal behavior to accommodate society", 'are we militant in our daily life in an effort to have society become more tolerant to our gayness?' etc.

I think my Thai mate uses various different words to describe our relationship from husband to partner to boss when speaking of me to Thais, probably not to lose face or make others uncomfortable. I do the same. I am not saying this is good, in fact, in the long run it probably delays ultimate acceptance by society.

PTE, thanks for your supportive reply. I might ask who determines what is decorous and dignified? My answer would be it's a compromise between one's own values and level of respect for the people one is interacting with. I'm much more likely to modify any behavior or communication, whether with respect to Gayness or not, when I'm around people I respect. I think that's just called being polite. I'd be interested to hear your take on that. You seem to have thought a lot about this and have quite an amazing history.

The Thai language has the genderless designation แฟน which most Thais use to refer to their wife, husband, girlfriend or boyfriend (some seem to have all four!) According to some language history I've read, the existence of this genderless noun for the partner in a loving relationship which includes sexual relations is not chance. It arises from the common practice here of polyamory. Historically, it was not uncommon for Thai men and women to have same-sex and opposite-sex lovers, as well as men having multiple wives (bigamy was criminalized, in law if not in practice, only in 1932). My husband almost invariable refers to me as his แฟน, though when we are with our Gay Thai friends I become his husband - สามี , ผัว.

Of course, when he refers to me as แฟน when I'm present, there is no ambiguity in the meaning at all for the listener! The sexual component is inherent to the word.

Any chance of a transliteration of the Thai-language words for non-Thai readers like me?

[sbk]

"Fan" --- can mean boyfriend or girlfriend, is also used to mean significant partner.