Question About Tones

[xkkpafi]

In the very old book by Campbell & Shaweevongs (Fundamentals of the Thai Language) the authors explain that

- If a word starts with a middle class consonant and ends with a 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg จำ (to remember)

- If a word starts with a high class consonant and ends with an 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg the first consonant in สำคัญ (important)

Yet going through the word list at the end of the book I find these inconsistencies:

The two syllable word for 'cotton wool' สำลี is listed with the first consonant as Rising tone, whereas the rule says it should be Common tone.

The two syllable word for 'imprison' จำคุก is listed with the first consonant as High tone, whereas the rule says it should be Common tone.

Is the book wrong or is there another explanation for these differences? Thanks for any help

Patrick

[stateman]

Patrick:

Sorry that you were taught something wrong. My comment is in Red.

In the very old book by Campbell & Shaweevongs (Fundamentals of the Thai Language) the authors explain that

- If a word starts with a middle class consonant and ends with a 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg จำ (to remember)

* This is correct. The pronunciation is Jum which rhymes with Mum.

- If a word starts with a high class consonant and ends with an 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg the first consonant in สำคัญ (important)

* This is incorrect. ส a high class consonant. สำ will indeed be a rising tone, not a Common tone.

It is the same as explained in 'cotton wool' สำลี below.

The sound of สำ is one tone higher than what rhymes with 'hump'.

Yet going through the word list at the end of the book I find these inconsistencies:

The two syllable word for 'cotton wool' สำลี is listed with the first consonant as Rising tone,

* [whereas the rule says it should be Common tone. - The rule you were taught here was wrong.]

ส a high class consonant. สำ will indeed be a rising tone, not a Common tone.

It is the same as explained in 'cotton wool' สำลี below.

The sound of สำ is one tone higher than what rhymes with 'hump'.

The two syllable word for 'imprison' จำคุก is listed with the first consonant as High tone, whereas the rule says it should be Common tone.

* จำ here is a middle class consonant. It has the same common tone and identical to the one I explained above, i.e. it has a Common tone. The pronunciation is Jum which rhymes with Mum.

In fact, there are 9 consonants in the same groups of middle class, and they will have a Common tone in such a case.

ก จ ฎ ฏ ด ต บ ป อ

[xkkpafi]

Patrick:

Sorry that you were taught something wrong. My comment is in Red.

In the very old book by Campbell & Shaweevongs (Fundamentals of the Thai Language) the authors explain that

- If a word starts with a middle class consonant and ends with a 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg จำ (to remember)

* This is correct. The pronunciation is Jum which rhymes with Mum.

- If a word starts with a high class consonant and ends with an 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg the first consonant in สำคัญ (important)

* This is incorrect. ส a high class consonant. สำ will indeed be a rising tone, not a Common tone.

It is the same as explained in 'cotton wool' สำลี below.

The sound of สำ is one tone higher than what rhymes with 'hump'.

Yet going through the word list at the end of the book I find these inconsistencies:

The two syllable word for 'cotton wool' สำลี is listed with the first consonant as Rising tone,

* [whereas the rule says it should be Common tone. - The rule you were taught here was wrong.]

ส a high class consonant. สำ will indeed be a rising tone, not a Common tone.

It is the same as explained in 'cotton wool' สำลี below.

The sound of สำ is one tone higher than what rhymes with 'hump'.

The two syllable word for 'imprison' จำคุก is listed with the first consonant as High tone, whereas the rule says it should be Common tone.

* จำ here is a middle class consonant. It has the same common tone and identical to the one I explained above, i.e. it has a Common tone. The pronunciation is Jum which rhymes with Mum.

In fact, there are 9 consonants in the same groups of middle class, and they will have a Common tone in such a case.

ก จ ฎ ฏ ด ต บ ป อ

Many thanks. Yes, the book and you good self are right, a HCC with an M sound is indeed rising, so I got that wrong.

But I guess the book is wrong when it lists จำคุก as High + Common as you point out. In fact it looks as if both tones are wrong; I would have thought theคุก syllable is a Low class consonant ending in a K sound which surely makes it a High tone.

[meadish_sweetball]

But I guess the book is wrong when it lists จำคุก as High + Common as you point out. In fact it looks as if both tones are wrong; I would have thought theคุก syllable is a Low class consonant ending in a K sound which surely makes it a High tone.

It looks like the book has got the tones of the syllables switched around. It should be Mid tone for จำ + High tone for คุก just as you suspect.

(Mid tone is the same thing as what your book refers to as 'common tone'. In my experience, the English expression mid tone is more commonly used than 'common tone'. )

[withnail]

Just checked the book and indeed the word จำคุก is wrong.

[mangkorn]

Sounds like a crummy book, to get something so basic so wrong.

So many farangs end up in Thailand, and suddenly consider themselves authors...

[stateman]

I would have thought theคุก syllable is a Low class consonant ending in a K sound which surely makes it a High tone.

You are right. คุก[/size] syllable is a Low class consonant ending in a K sound which surely makes it a High tone. This rhymes with 'cook'. In fact คุก IS pronounced 'cook', with identical sound.

[Richard W]

In the very old book by Campbell & Shaweevongs (Fundamentals of the Thai Language) the authors explain that

<snip>

- If a word starts with a high class consonant and ends with an 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg the first consonant in สำคัญ (important)

Where is this rule given? I can find no such rule in the fifth edition.

Sounds like a crummy book, to get something so basic so wrong.

There are a lot of typos in the English text.

[xkkpafi]

In the very old book by Campbell & Shaweevongs (Fundamentals of the Thai Language) the authors explain that

<snip>

- If a word starts with a high class consonant and ends with an 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg the first consonant in สำคัญ (important)

Where is this rule given? I can find no such rule in the fifth edition.

Sounds like a crummy book, to get something so basic so wrong.

There are a lot of typos in the English text.

That rule is not n the book. It was my mistake. The rule stated in the fifth edition is correct (lesson 11.B p 140) so I apologise for any confusion.

[xkkpafi]

Sounds like a crummy book, to get something so basic so wrong.

So many farangs end up in Thailand, and suddenly consider themselves authors...

On the contrary its probably the best book ever written on the subject despite the typos, which keep you on your toes anyway. I hardly think that Chuan Shaweevongs is a falang who has just come to Thailand and "suddenly considers himself as an author" since he was the coauthor of the first edition back in 1956 and revised the book at least up to the fourth edition in 1968.

[mangkorn]

Campbell? Must be an old Sukhothai family, or maybe from Ayudhya.

[Nepal4me]

Patrick:

Sorry that you were taught something wrong. My comment is in Red.

In the very old book by Campbell & Shaweevongs (Fundamentals of the Thai Language) the authors explain that

- If a word starts with a middle class consonant and ends with a 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg (to remember)

* This is correct. The pronunciation is Jum which rhymes with Mum.

- If a word starts with a high class consonant and ends with an 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg the first consonant in สำคัญ (important)

* This is incorrect. ส a high class consonant. สำ will indeed be a rising tone, not a Common tone.

It is the same as explained in 'cotton wool' สำลี below.

The sound of สำ is one tone higher than what rhymes with 'hump'.

Yet going through the word list at the end of the book I find these inconsistencies:

The two syllable word for 'cotton wool' สำลี is listed with the first consonant as Rising tone,

* [whereas the rule says it should be Common tone. - The rule you were taught here was wrong.]

ส a high class consonant. สำ will indeed be a rising tone, not a Common tone.

It is the same as explained in 'cotton wool' สำลี below.

The sound of สำ is one tone higher than what rhymes with 'hump'.

The two syllable word for 'imprison' จำคุก is listed with the first consonant as High tone, whereas the rule says it should be Common tone.

* จำ here is a middle class consonant. It has the same common tone and identical to the one I explained above, i.e. it has a Common tone. The pronunciation is Jum which rhymes with Mum.

In fact, there are 9 consonants in the same groups of middle class, and they will have a Common tone in such a case.

ก จ ฎ ฏ ด ต บ ป อ

Stateman, a couple of points on your post.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say "สำ is one tone higher than what rhymes with 'hump'. " Can you please explain your meaning.

Also using the English jum to represent จำ , while commonly used in the "official transcription" is an inaccurate way to translate the sound of the term. จำ much more closely would be represented by jam and does not at all rhyme with mum. It would more rhyme with maam, as in the American, "yes maam" except of course it would be a short vowel rather than a long vowel.

[cooL_guY_corY]

this jaam / jum.. this sara confuses me sometimes cause of the different sounds.. for example say the sound of จำ compared with the sound น้ำ..

จำ in my opinion really sounds like a um sound while water definitely has the aam sound going.. i can think of lots of words that sound ummy compared to words that sound.. anyone shed light on this ? or is it just craziness on my part or something

[Nepal4me]

this jaam / jum.. this sara confuses me sometimes cause of the different sounds.. for example say the sound of จำ compared with the sound น้ำ..

จำ in my opinion really sounds like a um sound while water definitely has the aam sound going.. i can think of lots of words that sound ummy compared to words that sound.. anyone shed light on this ? or is it just craziness on my part or something

Those both are the same sara so they are exactly the same in sound (other than the tone of course) and that is what I mean buy the sound of "water". It's definitely an aam sound (except short). I also just asked my wife. She says the vowel in จำ is exactly the same vowel sound as when using mai han aagaat.

[Rikker]

The pronunciation of น้ำ with a long vowel is an exception to the rule, and it's only pronounced long in stressed syllables (e.g. long in หิวน้ำ but short in น้ำมัน). The rule is อำ sounds roughly like "um" or the end of "come".

Oddly enough, some Thais will deny its existence, stubbornly maintaining that Thai pronunciation is completely regular and without exceptions.

Notice, though, that along with the change in length, the vowel quality (as it is called in linguistics-speak) also changes. That is, the vowel sound of นำ is produced in a different place in the mouth than the vowel of น้ำ. To put it simply, think "uh" versus "ah", not just short and long versions of "ah".

(This is also true for /i/ vs. /ii/ in pairs like มิด/มีด, and for /e/ vs. /ee/ in pairs like เอ็น/เอน. I can provide more details using IPA if you want.)

[mangkorn]

Excellent explanation, Rikker. Vowel "quality" is an important distinction that's not often taught.

[cooL_guY_corY]

She says the vowel in จำ is exactly the same vowel sound as when using mai han aagaat.

i am confused by what you mean..

But also notice this thing with mai han aagaat.. maybe again its just me but i hear distinct a and u sounds between certain words like.. สัตว์ sounds like a, and มัน sounds like u.. ah i had a few really good examples that i wanted to show but i cant remember what they were now.. anyways yea i think the vocal quality thing places a big role noted in the previous posts.

[DavidHouston]

The pronunciation of น้ำ with a long vowel is an exception to the rule, and it's only pronounced long in stressed syllables (e.g. long in หิวน้ำ but short in น้ำมัน). The rule is อำ sounds roughly like "um" or the end of "come".

Oddly enough, some Thais will deny its existence, stubbornly maintaining that Thai pronunciation is completely regular and without exceptions.

Sounds like academic sophistry to me. Is "น้ำ" an exception to the rule or is there a special sub-rule which covers all instances of words that contain "น้ำ"?

[DavidHouston]

She says the vowel in จำ is exactly the same vowel sound as when using mai han aagaat.

i am confused by what you mean..

But also notice this thing with mai han aagaat.. maybe again its just me but i hear distinct a and u sounds between certain words like.. สัตว์ sounds like a, and มัน sounds like u.. ah i had a few really good examples that i wanted to show but i cant remember what they were now.. anyways yea i think the vocal quality thing places a big role noted in the previous posts.

I suspect that what she means when she says "the vowel in จำ is exactly the same vowel sound as when using mai han aagaat" is that the same sounds involving the combination of "a" and "m" can be produced using two different spellings. For example, "สำ" and "สัม" result in the idential sounds; however, a particular word may use one or the other depending on its historical origin. Take, "สำนวน" [N] aphorism; proverb; idiom; dictum; adage; epigram; and, "สัมพันธ"์ [V] be related; be connected; be joined; be linked; be associated. Same initial sound - different spellings.

On the other hand, there are lots of จำ, for example, "จำนวน" [N] amount; quantity; sum; but I can find no spellings with "จัม", except for the loan word "สก๊อตจัมพ์ " [Domnern-Sathienpong].

Edited December 10, 2007 by DavidHouston

[meadish_sweetball]

She says the vowel in จำ is exactly the same vowel sound as when using mai han aagaat.

i am confused by what you mean..

But also notice this thing with mai han aagaat.. maybe again its just me but i hear distinct a and u sounds between certain words like.. สัตว์ sounds like a, and มัน sounds like u.. ah i had a few really good examples that i wanted to show but i cant remember what they were now.. anyways yea i think the vocal quality thing places a big role noted in the previous posts.

I think it could be a case of overlapping vowel systems. It seems particularly by American English speakers, Thai อา 'aa' and แอ 'ae' are heard as variations of the same sound because they would typically just be pronunciation variations in the English context (cf. acceptable pronunciations of 'sad', 'ham' and 'lamb' in English), whereas the difference is crucial in Thai.

This is what gave rise to the สะแพ่น (สะพาน) commercial a few years back.

I never had a problem getting those two sounds right, but I do have a problem with clearly producing the difference between โดย and ดอย when I do not concentrate (the tendency is for me to pronounce both as ดอย in rapid speech).

maybe again its just me but i hear distinct a and u sounds between certain words like.. สัตว์ sounds like a, and มัน sounds like u..

To me the vowel does sound identical.

[meadish_sweetball]

The pronunciation of น้ำ with a long vowel is an exception to the rule, and it's only pronounced long in stressed syllables (e.g. long in หิวน้ำ but short in น้ำมัน). The rule is อำ sounds roughly like "um" or the end of "come".

Oddly enough, some Thais will deny its existence, stubbornly maintaining that Thai pronunciation is completely regular and without exceptions.

Notice, though, that along with the change in length, the vowel quality (as it is called in linguistics-speak) also changes. That is, the vowel sound of นำ is produced in a different place in the mouth than the vowel of น้ำ. To put it simply, think "uh" versus "ah", not just short and long versions of "ah".

(This is also true for /i/ vs. /ii/ in pairs like มิด/มีด, and for /e/ vs. /ee/ in pairs like เอ็น/เอน. I can provide more details using IPA if you want.)

Yes, the vowel length does change the quality of the vowel slightly in Thai, I agree. Not quite as much as in Swedish though, where the difference between short and long versions of the same vowel sound are distinctly different and it sounds very 'off' from a 'Newsspeak Swedish' standpoint if you experiment with applying the exact same degree of openness and lip rounding to the long and short version of some vowels, although some dialects do.

[DavidHouston]

She says the vowel in จำ is exactly the same vowel sound as when using mai han aagaat.

i am confused by what you mean..

But also notice this thing with mai han aagaat.. maybe again its just me but i hear distinct a and u sounds between certain words like.. สัตว์ sounds like a, and มัน sounds like u.. ah i had a few really good examples that i wanted to show but i cant remember what they were now.. anyways yea i think the vocal quality thing places a big role noted in the previous posts.

I think it could be a case of overlapping vowel systems. It seems particularly by American English speakers, Thai อา 'aa' and แอ 'ae' are heard as variations of the same sound because they would typically just be pronunciation variations in the English context (cf. acceptable pronunciations of 'sad', 'ham' and 'lamb' in English), whereas the difference is crucial in Thai.

This is what gave rise to the สะแพ่น (สะพาน) commercial a few years back.

I never had a problem getting those two sounds right, but I do have a problem with clearly producing the difference between โดย and ดอย when I do not concentrate (the tendency is for me to pronounce both as ดอย in rapid speech).

maybe again its just me but i hear distinct a and u sounds between certain words like.. สัตว์ sounds like a, and มัน sounds like u..

To me the vowel does sound identical.

The fault lieth not in the Thai, but in the English. I believe with Meadish that the sounds in the two Thai words are identical. Whether it is "distinct a and u sounds ", "a" or "u" is a function of 1. what word the English speaker is using as a sound cognate; and 2. what particular dialect of English is one's native language.

[fxe1200]

In the very old book by Campbell & Shaweevongs (Fundamentals of the Thai Language) the authors explain that

- If a word starts with a middle class consonant and ends with a 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg จำ (to remember)

- If a word starts with a high class consonant and ends with an 'M' sound, the word has a Common tone, eg the first consonant in สำคัญ (important)

Yet going through the word list at the end of the book I find these inconsistencies:

The two syllable word for 'cotton wool' สำลี is listed with the first consonant as Rising tone, whereas the rule says it should be Common tone.

The two syllable word for 'imprison' จำคุก is listed with the first consonant as High tone, whereas the rule says it should be Common tone.

Is the book wrong or is there another explanation for these differences? Thanks for any help

Patrick

Actually I have no idea, but this link helped me a lot in translating from English to Thai and vice versa. It also contains soundfiles.

http://www.thai-language.com/default.aspx

Good Luck