American/british Prose Style

[lukey1979]

I'm American and use standard American English or colloqial American English in my prose. However, since becoming a TV member I find myself

picking up and sometimes using everyday British English. ie spot on, right then, tosser, dosh, yob,Pub, tube, bonnet,lift,football, a few others that I'm reluctant to use here in lieu of equivalent American English. Don't use British spelling, its always "OR" never "OUR".

I rationalize using my new found vocabulary for clarities sake since most Amerians are familiar with and understand the few British words that I do use in my everyday prose.

To make this Thai related, wanted to comment on the influence of British TV members or expats living in LOS have had on others, particularly myself.

Please, no American bashing.

didn't GBS or Churchhill say the Americans and British are two people separated by a common language.

I'm thinking to myself <deleted> is the point of this post? I'm just rambling, but will post it anyway.

When the Scottish, Welsh and Irish are'nt speaking Gailic they speak English. the Aussies Dont speak Aussie English they speak ENGLISH.

English is still English whatever flavour it is... (or flavor)

American English INDEED! <deleted>!

Edited December 11, 2007 by lukey1979

[PeaceBlondie]

Most languages have dialects (including Gaelic languages). They differ in spellings, pronunciations, vocabulary. The stereotypical Cockney girl Eliza Doolittle is an example. Extreme use of dialect does not communicate across neighborhoods.

[WaiWai]

My hair has bangs, not fringes

Not * a fringe *, Blondie .

I think !

[Prakanong]

Most languages have dialects (including Gaelic languages). They differ in spellings, pronunciations, vocabulary. The stereotypical Cockney girl Eliza Doolittle is an example. Extreme use of dialect does not communicate across neighborhoods.

Yes- I have quite a strong accent (worse when excited or after a drink) but I have had to modify my dialect a lot. Most understand me now as I still have the accent but complete the words and do not use dialect - when i first left home for Uni I had to repeat myself so many times.

I got a lot of stick from the guy's back home on my vacations home and actually still do if I see them.

I was in a bar in Pattaya last year and heard some voices from around a column in the bar. I turned to the ex and said, "There are some peopler from my home town around there" I looked and it was -we even speak slightly different from towns a few miles down the road.

The funny thing was the ex and the service girl thought we were talking French and not "Pitmatic" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitmatic

[LinkPopularity]

sad indeed that so many people who live in countries like the UK, USA and/or Aussie don't know how to speak English ... very sad ...

[WaiWai]

Pronunciation

Most Aussie-expats are not interested in attempting to change their accent or way of speaking, and in the melting-pot that is America there is definitely no reason that they should. However in the day-to-day living of an Aussie-expat in America, they will find that they may have to make some minor changes - not only in the words that they use, but in the way they are pronounced - just so that they can be understood! Here are a few of the common pronunciations that can trip us up.

The most common problem Aussies have in being understood, is their inability to use an "R" when it is in the middle or at the end of a word. Australians only seem to pronounce the "R" when it comes before a vowel. For example, they say the word "American" using the "R" quite clearly, but the word "curtain" does not have the "R" pronouned. And when the "R" comes at the end of a word, Australians do not pronounce it - for example the word "beer" sounds like "bee-ah", or even just "bee" to Americans. While the "R" problem is the most common, it's also the most difficult to rectify - when we attempt to use the "R" in words, it's difficult to do and sounds false to our own ears.

Pronouncing "ai" words is another hazard to Aussies. For example the word "mail" spoken by an Aussie sounds like "moyle" to an American. This and similar one-syllable words (like "file") are better broken into two-syllables if you want to make yourself understood. For example, "may-all" and "fii-all".

Some Aussies find it difficult to be understood when they say "Coke", being misunderstood for "cake". Those people say that to get around that, they say "Coca-Cola" instead.

While Australians often don't pronounce the letter "R", Americans quite often don't pronounce the letter "T" in words. So when you get a word like "water" which has both an "R" and a "T" in it, the unsuspecting Aussie is doomed - because they pronounce the "T" and not the "R". To an American it sounds like "wortah" - instead of the American sound "waa-derr".

Sometimes short one-syllable words can trip us up, such as words like "pen" can sound like "pin" to an American, although they are usually taken in context of the rest of the sentence and so not misunderstood all the time. Spelling words out to an American can be a nightmare too - basically the way Aussies say the letter "a" sounds like an "i" to Americans, and the way we say the letter "e" sounds like an "a". If you get into a situation like this, use terms like "a - as in apple", and grit your teeth.

Here is a short-list of some of the more common words that can "trip up" an Aussie.

Tuna - Americans pronounce it "toona".

Tomato - Americans pronounce it the same as "potato".

Aluminium - Americans pronounce it "aloominum".

Produce - Americans pronounce it "pro-doose".

Buoy - Americans pronounce it "boo-ee".

Solder - Americans pronounce it "sodder".

Due - Americans pronounce it "doo".

Water - Americans pronounce it "waa-derr".

For some reason, talking on the phone to an American makes the whole pronunciation thing much worse. It's probably because they are not able to "see" you talk at the same time as hearing you. Suffice to say that talking to Americans on the phone (especially when they don't know you), can be a nightmare.

Whether you decide to take measures to make yourself more easily understood or not is completely up to you. It does seem that most Aussie-expats in America do not care to try to change their accents, but many make just enough modifications to their speech so that day-to-day living doesn't seem as much of a mine-field anymore.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That comes from an interesting website which deals with Aussie culture shock in the USA, matesupover.com.

This highlights the fact that we all have control of a variety of forms of English, allowing us to adapt as needed to different people, social settings and even countries.

Also, two friendly native speakers conversing will tend to modify their language to be more alike. Much of the time this is not done consciously. This is perhaps what is happening in the OP's case.

Some people are especially prone to acquiring new accents with only brief exposure. It's not an affectation (that's a different story), just a natural ability to mimic, along with some psychological tendnecies, perhaps. Anyone remember Woody Allen's fim, Zelig ?

Edited December 12, 2007 by WaiWai

[meadish_sweetball]

For some reason, talking on the phone to an American makes the whole pronunciation thing much worse. It's probably because they are not able to "see" you talk at the same time as hearing you. Suffice to say that talking to Americans on the phone (especially when they don't know you), can be a nightmare.

For anything involving language, telephones and loud background noise are the worst problems.

Regular telephone transmissions cut off vital frequencies. If you have ever compared a quality VOiP call (completely from computer to computer) with that of a phone call, you will notice that the need for 'a for apple' etc. pretty much disappears via Voice over IP (misunderstandings due to different dialects remain though).

The VOiP call preserves the high frequencies that are necessary for us to interpret consonant sounds such as the difference between f and s.

I remember an Australian friend in the US saying he had to mimic a strong American accent every time he ordered pizza, or it just wouldn't work.

[WaiWai]

Interesting, Meadish S.

Of course we miss facial cues and body language on the phone, and many believe this is what makes the crucial difference.

It's odd that most Americans must have to cope with a huge range of different American accents (immigrants, ethnic groups, regional accents etc.) but can be quite thrown by a UK or Aussie accent, even if standard. I have experienced this myself and observed it many times. I wonder if there's an age at which our brains become less capable of deciphering variations, so that an accent not encountered earlier in life will not "compute". All Brits, NZers, Aussies, Canadians et al can understand Americans but the reverse does not apply nearly so frequently. I find Americans are also not nearly so aware of the UK English vocab alternatives as non-N.Americans are of the US English terms. I do think widespread exposure to US television and films is largely responsible. If American kids watched "Neighbours" and "Coronation Street", would it open the brain pathways to permit comprehension of a greater number of accents in later life ?

Edited December 12, 2007 by WaiWai

[tuffy]

Good post....pretty much as useless as tits on a boar hog but it seems that y'all have managed to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear this time.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

[Jingthing]

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

From God's pie hole to your arse!

[enyaw]

When I'm talking to Aussies I can talk in Broad Yorkshire, when my American friend is visiting I have to talk English.

Something to do with the first Aussies being Yorkie transportees per-chance??

Alarmingly, Broad Lancashire (Wigan) seems to work rather well with our Antipodean friends too

It's true to say todays Aussie accent will closely resemble 18th century cockney.

Edited December 12, 2007 by enyaw

[PeaceBlondie]

The article about Pitmatic in Wiki ends by listing about 8 dialects just for northern England. Counting Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland and the rest of England, how many total surviving dialects would that make - 20 or 30? Yet I'm not familiar with more than 4 American 'dialects': New England, New York/New Jersey, north central, and south. Sound media has been blending those four into north central for 75 years. Even so called "hillbillies" can easily make themselves understood, and the so called Eubonic dialect among Black Americans is overstated. In fact, many educated Blacks take pains to speak some of the world's best pronounced English, and they say "aunt" to rhyme with "haunt."

[Prakanong]

The article about Pitmatic in Wiki ends by listing about 8 dialects just for northern England. Counting Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland and the rest of England, how many total surviving dialects would that make - 20 or 30? Yet I'm not familiar with more than 4 American 'dialects': New England, New York/New Jersey, north central, and south. Sound media has been blending those four into north central for 75 years. Even so called "hillbillies" can easily make themselves understood, and the so called Eubonic dialect among Black Americans is overstated. In fact, many educated Blacks take pains to speak some of the world's best pronounced English, and they say "aunt" to rhyme with "haunt."

I do not know how many surviving dialects but the pitmatic is being subsumed into a wider north eastern one but the distinction will remain I think between maken and geordie.

The south of England is losing a lot of its dialects and accents are also moulding into one called "Estuary English" http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/estuary/ee-faqs-jcw.htm

My pal is from rural Essex and I can remember an old guy talking with a distinct "Burr" at his fathers party that peole said was going fast now and all of the young crowd spoke Estuary

When I was at Sheffield Uni the lingustics department had a lot of recordings of old dialects and accents they took before they died out completely. I think Melvyn Bragg had some shows on Radio 4 you gat still find on the WWW - there is definately one on pitmatic where you can listen to it.

[PeaceBlondie]

Okay, a fast example. I was telling about the right hand drive English Ford I bought in Texas, and a Brit asked me about that. In my reply, I used "whilst," something I never would have done until this year, amongst other things.

[cm-happy]

Interesting fact but a bit OT.

Tangire Island populated by Watermen(fishermen) in the Cheasapeak Bay.

Believe it or not, they still speak Elizabethan English there. Fun to go for great crab cakes and listen to the locals gossip.

[astral]

I was horrified when a friends daughter was learning the old nursery rhyme

Mary had a little lamb.............

"Mary got a little lamb" was the new American version............

The English language is one of the richest in the world,

just look at a Thesaurus for all the possibilities,

why dumb it down to Got Got Got.....................

[Jingthing]

I never heard Mary got a little lamb, it was always had a little lamb. I am skeptical that the aberration you encountered is typical. I also reject that American English represents a dumbing down of English. The languages have simply evolved naturally in different directions.

PB: I could never do whilst. That crosses a line. I do rather fancy bugger though.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Jingthing

[enyaw]

I was horrified when a friends daughter was learning the old nursery rhyme

Mary had a little lamb.............

"Mary got a little lamb" was the new American version............

The English language is one of the richest in the world,

just look at a Thesaurus for all the possibilities,

why dumb it down to Got Got Got.....................

Mary had a little lamb.. the Doctors were astounded.

Everywhere that Mary went.. Gynecologist surrounded.

Edited December 12, 2007 by enyaw

[kat]

I was horrified when a friends daughter was learning the old nursery rhyme

Mary had a little lamb.............

"Mary got a little lamb" was the new American version............

The English language is one of the richest in the world,

just look at a Thesaurus for all the possibilities,

why dumb it down to Got Got Got.....................

So, you heard one child, and now it is all of America dumbing down the English language? I learned it as "HAD."

If you want to find examples of the bastardization of the English language, you should find plenty in good ol' England itself.

What about the English and their malicious urban legends whenever it comes to anything American? For example, it was the English that started the most famous INACCURATE urban legend and LIE about John F. Kennedy's speech "Ich bin ein Berliner" as being grammatically incorrect, when in fact it was not. Rather than correct and learn about their own errors and stupidity, the English seem rather fond of blaming it all on others.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner (Sorry I can't get this to be a hyperlink)

(Eddie Izzard, "Ich bin ein Berliner). Edited December 12, 2007 by kat

[canuckamuck]

I never heard Mary got a little lamb, it was always had a little lamb. I am skeptical that the aberration you encountered is typical. I also reject that American English represents a dumbing down of English. The languages have simply evolved naturally in different directions.

PB: I could never do whilst. That crosses a line. I do rather fancy bugger though.

What you do with your buddies is up to you. Not really polite conversation though, keep it clean.

[kat]

I never heard Mary got a little lamb, it was always had a little lamb. I am skeptical that the aberration you encountered is typical. I also reject that American English represents a dumbing down of English. The languages have simply evolved naturally in different directions.

PB: I could never do whilst. That crosses a line. I do rather fancy bugger though.

I still use "spot on" and "taking the mickey." I like "innit" and still tell people to fuc_k off as well. Probably a slew of others I picked up as well. I can definitely drink a lot more, that's for sure.

Oh yeah, my favorite: "go on, then"

Edited December 13, 2007 by kat

[PeaceBlondie]

I'd more likely expect to hear "Mary got a little lamb" from a Brit child, than from an American. To my experience after arriving in Thailand, the Brits use forms of "get/got/gotten" more than Americans do.

Jingthing, my use of 'whilst' was forced. I mean, talking to a Brit about a British saloon with right hand drive, it seemed entirely too logical to say "while." I would like to hear a true recording of one Thai pronouncing all the final and penultimate sounds of "whilst" and "amongst." I do like penultimate, though; so much classier than "second-to-last."

[Mosha]

I have never heard a Brit use gotten as a word. Get and got yes but never gotten.

[JimsKnight]

The problem wi fookin American English is nae wan can <deleted> understand it, ya know what a mean like?

Even the Thais are pickin up bleedin words from American, now what the friggers is a 'condominium' man? Before i came tae Thailand a thought it wis something ye bought for a quid in the toilet, tae stick on yer wee willy before a good old session wi some slapper doon the park!

In ma idea like, thai-visa should make it policey that aw the posters right in proper decent English-english, nun of that American lubbish!

Say what??? I've no idea what you said. Some one please translate. Thanks

He's using Tyne 'n' Wear English slang, it's a quirky Northern language that rivals cockney slang. Hence the rivalry.

[Mosha]

My pal is from rural Essex and I can remember an old guy talking with a distinct "Burr" at his fathers party that peole said was going fast now and all of the young crowd spoke Estuary

When I was at Sheffield Uni the lingustics department had a lot of recordings of old dialects and accents they took before they died out completely. I think Melvyn Bragg had some shows on Radio 4 you gat still find on the WWW - there is definately one on pitmatic where you can listen to it.

I remember an article that it was believed Estuary English would eventually take over much of the South, and reach as far north as the Midlands. Where it will hit a language wall. One of the things that gets blamed is East Enders.

[mr_hippo]

Due to globalisation, there is not one definitive version of standard English. Not many British people speak RP, Oxford English or Queen's English - they can't even decide on which term to use! How many Brits have moved to London, for example, for study/work and returned to their native city and been accused of talking 'posh'? Does the same thing happen to Billy Joe Bob from Podunk, Tn on his return from Boston? Or Bruce from Wagga Wagga Podunk, WA when he returns from Sydney?

There are not many spelling differences and it has already been pointed out both are correct but try not to mix the two. Thai kids are normally taught by a variety of native speakers so their accent is best described as 'International'.

"British textbook or American textbook?" It depends on what your school has supplied but how many of you slavishly follow the book word for word? I know that I didn't!

So teach in your own accent - note I did not say dialect, your students are adaptable with having a Kiwi last semester, you this semester and maybe a Scot the following one.

I was brought up on the southern fringes of the Lancashire coal face. One of my jobs just prior to coming out here involved visiting people in their own home and sometime taking a trainee with me. We were in the home of an 85 yo Bolton miner who spoke very broad Lancashire, I can now only speak it if I am listening to it. We left the chap after about 2 hours and the trainee asked me what language were we speaking! I think the next appointment put him off the job - it was with a Pakistani family and the conversation was half Arabic and half English.

Just a tip for some of you who find accents difficult - stop listening too hard, don't concentrate on every word and you'll soon get it.

[Prakanong]

The problem wi fookin American English is nae wan can <deleted> understand it, ya know what a mean like?

Even the Thais are pickin up bleedin words from American, now what the friggers is a 'condominium' man? Before i came tae Thailand a thought it wis something ye bought for a quid in the toilet, tae stick on yer wee willy before a good old session wi some slapper doon the park!

In ma idea like, thai-visa should make it policey that aw the posters right in proper decent English-english, nun of that American lubbish!

Say what??? I've no idea what you said. Some one please translate. Thanks

He's using Tyne 'n' Wear English slang, it's a quirky Northern language that rivals cockney slang. Hence the rivalry.

He is not using Tyne and Wear English - they are in fact quite distinct ie makem and geordie are different ie Tyne and Wear - then there is pitmatic from further up the Wear and Tyne in rural Durham and Northumberland in the old coalfields.

It seems to be a mixture to me - fookin is not north east (well i would not write it lke that) -

Bleedin is definately southern - sarf London and Kent?

Some north eastern there though - "tae stick on yer wee willy before a good old session wi some slapper doon the park!"

I would shorten session to sesh and say tadger instead of willy -but that is just my local dialect

[Prakanong]

My pal is from rural Essex and I can remember an old guy talking with a distinct "Burr" at his fathers party that peole said was going fast now and all of the young crowd spoke Estuary

When I was at Sheffield Uni the lingustics department had a lot of recordings of old dialects and accents they took before they died out completely. I think Melvyn Bragg had some shows on Radio 4 you gat still find on the WWW - there is definately one on pitmatic where you can listen to it.

I remember an article that it was believed Estuary English would eventually take over much of the South, and reach as far north as the Midlands. Where it will hit a language wall. One of the things that gets blamed is East Enders.

I thought it was named after the Thames Estuary bit others have said it will go from the Humber Esturay to the Avon Esturay in Bristol - the tradiotiona north south line and not the Watford Gap.

I have been away from Durham over 20 years and my accent is staying - I may round it off. speak a little slower and not use dialect but thats about it - the Asians I work with find it funny but understand it (they also find my slight belly cuddly and some are against my new diet and exercise regime to lose it )

[raslin]

Soldering is the spelling. How do you Brits pronounce it?

Brits, Aussies, and perhaps others say "sold" as in "old"; not as in "odd", oddly .

Brits say this where? Never heard in 50+ years.

"sol" as in "solid" sol(id)ering.

Use to do it all the time repairing radios (these are the same as wirelesses)

[Crossy]

Soldering is the spelling. How do you Brits pronounce it?

Brits, Aussies, and perhaps others say "sold" as in "old"; not as in "odd", oddly .

Brits say this where? Never heard in 50+ years.

"sol" as in "solid" sol(id)ering.

Use to do it all the time repairing radios (these are the same as wirelesses)

I (Brit) pronounce it sol-der-ing although I've heard s-older-ing both are just fine to me as they pronounce all the letters, "soddering", nah, that "L" is there for a reason

Funny how the word "wireless" has changed meaning over the years, from the big wooden box that occasionally received the BBC news, to the little plastic dongle (there's a word) that occasionally connects to the internet

Frankly I'm amazed this thread hasn't turned into a Yank bashing fest, long may it remain that way :D