Still Cant Find Issan/thai/eng Dictionary

[bina]

still looking for that elusive dictionary- the issan/thai/eng or w/o eng. in previous thread someone said to look in peace corp bangkok; tried, maybe my skills on internet are deteriorating but couldnt find what i was looking for so back to square one:

tried dco books, they dont have it , its no longer on their shelf as far as i could see.

clues anyone?

[bkk barney]

issan is north east thailand, they generally speak thai which is the national language, but they will also use laos words just to confuse u if they are talking about getting money out of u or talking about u.

issan is not a language.

[meadish_sweetball]

issan is north east thailand, they generally speak thai which is the national language, but they will also use laos words just to confuse u if they are talking about getting money out of u or talking about u.

issan is not a language.

Sorry Bkk Barney, but that is not really true.

Go to Khonkaen and listen in on any conversation between locals - it is distinctly its own dialect with a large local vocabulary and its own tone rules; more closely related to Lao than to Central Thai (although of course in the same language family). The fact that virtually everyone understands Central Thai and can speak it more or less is due to the fact that it is the national language of Thailand, taught in schools and also the basis for the writing system. There are four main dialects within Thailand, and these can be divided into yet further regional variations (I may be one or two provinces off from the official division here, so please correct me if I am wrong):

- Northern Thai as spoken in the former Lanna kingdom,

- Isaan (Northeastern) Thai as spoken from Nakhon Ratchasima and northeastwards from there,

- Central Thai as spoken from Phitsanulok in the north down to approximately Chumphon in the South,

- and Southern Thai, from Chumphon and downwards.

While many words within the dialects are close to each other, they are not always mutually intelligible.

[bkk barney]

we could say the same about scotland, london,hull, birmingham, manchester and new castle, they are all english, but they all have differant slang words and differant accents, but it is english believe it or not, well not sure about new castle, but even ppl from newcastle can get a gce in english, believe it or not even americans speak english even though they spell a lot of words differantely...

[Hua Nguu]

Hi,

Check out:

http://www.phrasebook.thai-isan-lao.com/

Haven`t got it myself though, so don`t know how usefull it is.

Cheers

Michael

[Hua Nguu]

we could say the same about scotland, london,hull, birmingham, manchester and new castle, they are all english, but they all have differant slang words and differant accents, but it is english believe it or not, well not sure about new castle, but even ppl from newcastle can get a gce in english, believe it or not even americans speak english even though they spell a lot of words differantely...

Hi Bkk Barney,

No, you cannot say the same about those areas in the UK.

Issarn Lao use different vocabulary for common words.:

Do you speak thai:

Khun phuut phaasaa thai Pben Mai - thai version

Jao wao Lao Pben Bor - Issarn version.

Cheers

Michael

[Richard W]

we could say the same about scotland, london,hull, birmingham, manchester and new castle, they are all english, but they all have differant slang words and differant accents, but it is english believe it or not, well not sure about new castle, but even ppl from newcastle can get a gce in english, believe it or not even americans speak english even though they spell a lot of words differantely...

Hi Bkk Barney,

No, you cannot say the same about those areas in the UK.

Ethnologue records only five English languages, as opposed to the nine Southwestern Tai languages principally spoken in Thailand:

Northern Thai (6,000,000)

Phuan (>100,000?)

Song (25,000) Dialect of Tai Dam?

Central Thai (25,000,000)

Nyaw (50,000)

Phu Thai (156,000)

Northeastern Thai (15,000,000 ?)

Southern Thai (5,000,000)

(N)yong

There are of course overspill groups in Thailand, comparable to the minor languages above:

Shan (56,000)

Tai Dam (20,000)

(Tai) Lue (78,000) (A.k.a. Lü)

Incidentally, there is some doubt about the status of the dialect of Korat. That might be a separate language.

[bina]

hua nguu and meadish, will try the link;

bkk, it is a group of languages that are different than central thai; ethnically, the issan people are made of several different ethnic groups w/own languages check out our other threads that we discussed ethnology/history etc.... good link to rossetta project and languages, dialects.... in this forum maybe back three or four pages

puan thai

ventiane lao

korat (yet different cant remember name)

nong khai speak different also

not slang, but some mutually intelligable some mutually unintelligable;

roots are same (tai languages)

english\

gaelic

celtic

all different languages...

not used to confuse you, used cause that is what is spoken at home; television probably is helping (or destroying) the singular use.... also gov't policy; most people i work with cant use thai/eng dic because a lot of 'their' words lacking but their kids can due to exposure via tv internet and school

oops saw richard just added his own, was looking for him in forum

Thai linguists recognise 19 different dialects of Isan. The US Peace Corps publishes a short Isan-Central Thai dictionary that I believe is based on the Udon dialect.

In a more general manner of speaking the differing Isan dialects parallel the dialects of Lao found on the other side of the Mekong, thus Nong Khai and Udon Thani Isan sounds very much like Vientiane Lao, Mukdahan follows Savannakhet and Ubon Ratchathani follows Pakse/Champasak.

The main differences are in the tones and accent, not the vocabulary although you do hear a few lexical differences from region to region in Laos and I'm sure it must be the same in Isan.

Continuing northwestward, the dialect(s) of Northern Thai spoken in Nan and Chiang Rai are similar to what you find in Sainyabuli (Sayaburi) province in Laos, and if you travel to Luang Prabang you'll hear close links between Luang Prabang Lao and Chiang Mai Thai (kham meuang).

Now that I've studied Lao, I see kham meuang as a more or less a dialect of Lao.

I'd go so far as to say that Lao, Isan Thai and Northern Thai have much more in common with one another than they do with Central Thai.

Of course some of my Northern Thai friends don't like to see their language compared with Lao ...

says sabaijai from the other thread....

richard had reccommended : ethnologue.org or com ?

look it up bkk barney especially if lyou are a teacher you should learn these distinctions and not assume people are out to get you or speak over your head....

[Richard W]

puan thai

ventiane lao

korat (yet different cant remember name)

nong khai speak different also

not slang, but some mutually intelligable some mutually unintelligable;

roots are same (tai languages)

english\

gaelic

celtic

all different languages...

The most significant language in Isan at that level of difference is Saek - a mere 11,000 speakers. I suspect the exclusion of this conservative language from Tai is unwarranted - it's an archaic Northern Tai language with South Western Tai phonology and one very archaic feature - final /l/.

Isan also has some Eastern Mon-Khmer languages - they are probably no more related to Thai than Maltese and Hebrew are to English. The significant ones are:

Northern Khmer: (1, 000, 000 speakers)

Kuy: (300,000)

Mon is not really an Isan language, but has a glimmer of a presence on the border of Isan and Central Thailand. It's spoken elsewhere in Thailand. Mon had official status until Rama V withdrew it for lack of speakers - currently down to c. 85,000 in Thailand.

[simon43]

My Isaan GF told me that the Isaan language is really only a spoken language, so finding a phrase-book etc might be a bit hard since the lingo ain't written down (Not sure if she is right but that's my 10 bahts worth on this subject...)

[meadish_sweetball]

I think there is a good chance that there are some Thai - Isaan and English - Thai Isaan publications out there - but they may be collecting dust at a university library somewhere. A lot of info is never published on the Internet.

Googling Thai linguists and students are bound to find this forum sooner or later, and when you do, please participate - there is a potential for creating an even better and more diversified discussion here, where everyone from the beginner to the advanced linguist may find something of interest...

Cheers,

Meadish

[caughtintheact]

There is an Isan-Thai-English online dictionary athttp://www.isangate.com/dict/default.asp?w=%A4%E9%CD%C2

There is also a book: E21384 - Preecha Phinthong - US$45.00

ISAN-THAI-ENGLISH DICTIONARY

(Bangkok, 1989)

1075 pp., 190 x 266 mm

สารนุกรม ภาษา อีสาน ไทย อังกฤษ

I found it years ago at DK (Asia??) Books 2nd floor Thaniya Plaza, but don't know if it is still available. It cost about B950 at the time.

Links to others are at http://www.phrasebook.thai-isan-lao.com/ph...k_linkpage.html

Also found this one:

E22275/CD - Mollerup, Asger - US$27.50

THAI-ISAN-LAO PHRASEBOOK WITH MP3 SOUND TRACKS ON CD-ROM

(Bangkok, 2001)

380 pp., 1 pp. map, 210 x 295 mm, pbk

and one more but I have never seen it in print

Samorn Chaiyana was born in the northeastern Thai province of Yasothorn,well known among foreigners for its spectacular Rocket Festival (usually in May). Khun Samorn speaks four languages: Thai, Pasa Isan (Northeastern Thai), a Chinese dialect, and English. He co-owns FloatingLotus.com (a.k.a. Bawrisat Bua Luang Communications Jamgat). He has been a language consultant and Thai editor for most of Mr. Allyn's books (see above). He his currently working on several projects, including The Bua Luang Isan-Thai-English Dictionary. Khun Samorn can be contacted by e-mail through Floating Lotus. nangseu_at_floatinglotus.com

[bina]

cia (only now caught the pun....55555)

thanks will try; tried issangate a few months ago for someone and couldnt get it... maybe third world israeli server problems?? i found issan gate a long time ago for the workers that work with me, but they didnt give two hoots about learning about internet, too time consuming trying to read (they have very basic schooling for the most part, not all) but it was all in thai which i cannot read at the moment (brain cells cant seem to get past 'gor gai' , after 9 hours a day in the sun);

the other one:Also found this one:

E22275/CD - Mollerup, Asger - US$27.50

THAI-ISAN-LAO PHRASEBOOK WITH MP3 SOUND TRACKS ON CD-ROM

(Bangkok, 2001)

380 pp., 1 pp. map, 210 x 295 mm, pbk

not available at dco books at the moment... i dont live in thailand and no one i know has money or time to buy for me; only can do overseas order if available.

any one have a used copy willing to sell or trade (can send you israeli palm dates or falefel mix or our kibbutz cold pressed olive oil or something?? )

[Neeranam]

Hi,

Check out:

http://www.phrasebook.thai-isan-lao.com/

Haven`t got it myself though, so don`t know how usefull it is.

Cheers

Michael

Thanks for that link Michael. It will keep me busy for a while. I live in Issarn, but my Thai wife doesn't speak a word.

[bkk barney]

since when did a dialect become a language?

[Richard W]

since when did a dialect become a language?

Having an army and a navy is the usual criterion.

However, if you want to merge North-Eastern Thai into another language, you have to choose Lao. This might not be such a bad idea anyway - see Sabaijai's comments on how the national border crosses (sub)dialect boundaries. Laos has an army at least. Laotian also officially has its own script (see Unicode), as well as its own spelling rules.

As to Northern Thai, The kingdom of Lannathai has long been in abeyance, unless you wish to count the Principality of Chiangmai. It does have its own script (Lanna Script/ Tua Mueang), even if nowadays it's mostly used by others. I think it's used most in China.

Mutual incomprehensibility is the usual test, but sometime that merely yields a dialect continuum, as is (or was?) the case with the Romance languages and the continental south Germanic languages - Dutch, German, Letzeburgisch and Swiss German all have official standing. (I think it's individual dialects of Swiss German that have official staus, e.g. Baseldytsch.)

Southern Thai speakers have to rely on speaking very differently if they are to claim to have a separate language.

[bkk barney]

so issan is secretly building up their navy as we speak, ###### things aint looking so good..

[meadish_sweetball]

so issan is secretly building up their navy as we speak, ###### things aint looking so good..

It is not that clearcut what is a dialect and what is a language (except for the army definition), but as Richard says - NorthEastern Thai is much more closely related to the Lao on the other side of the Mekhong than to the Central Thai spoken around the Chao Phraya river basin and Central Plains, so in either case, it should not be considered a dialect of Central Thai.

[bkk barney]

so as i said. thais in issan speak a lot of laos, but use thai script in writing, and also speak thai aswell as laos.

thai is a language. laos is a language, issan is not a language, yet i got 10 idiots telling me issan is a dialeact, who the fuk mentioned dialects b4 my post??? we were talking languages, or at least i was.

yes there are dialects of every differant language in the world, there also the hill tribes up north that speak completely differant to anybody else, as for one of the earlier posters, yes i speak thai fluently, i have more trouble understanding someone from newcastle than someone from issan..

[Richard W]

so as i said. thais in issan speak a lot of laos, but use thai script in writing, and also speak thai aswell as laos.

The script issue is a red herring. A lot of people on this forum write Thai in the Roman alphabet!

The army/navy issue has a great deal to do with the differences between the Lao and Thai scripts. They're almost the same, and apart from the lack of mai kon (position apparently reserved for it at at U+0E3B in the Thai Unicode block!), principally for implicit -o- in Thai, you can easily transcribe Lao to Thai and transcribe back. (You may lose some of the optional variations.) In fact, I was dismayed to see that the Thai and Lao scripts were not treated as a single script. The people of Isan write in the Thai script because that is the script they are taught as school.

[bina]

thai is a language. laos is a language, issan is not a language, yet i got 10 idiots telling me issan is a dialeact, who the fuk mentioned dialects b4 my post??? we were talking languages, or at least i was.

most of us are discussing things politely; you are a definately nasty piece of work and i was trying as andykat once said: to practice noble silence.... but u take the cake....

richard, sabaijai, snowleopard, and meadish not to mention others have been accurate up until now;

next question for those that know: is there a book with the lyrics of the lung thung songs (preferably w/translation but thats probably asking too much....), i find i understand more and more when i hear the songs and watch the karoake discs but seeing them printed before me helps even more....

thanx to all others who have taken the time and energy to resurrect a thread and answer to the point...

[bina]

found a site!!!:

SOME IMPORTANT TERMINOLOGY

Internal Variation: the property of languages having different ways of expressing the same meaning. Importantly, this refers to within language, not across language, differences. An example of internal variation in English is "ask" vs. "aks".

Language variety: This is a general term that may be used at a number of levels. So, we can use the term to distinguish between English and French, but we can also use the term to distinguish between two varieties of English, such as New York City English vs. Appalachian English.

Dialect: This is a complex and often misunderstood concept. For linguists, a dialect is the collection of attributes (phonetic, phonological, syntactic, morphological, semantic) that make one group of speakers noticeably different from another group of speakers of the same language.

COMMON SOURCES OF MISUNDERSTANDING

1) DIALECT is NOT a negative term for linguists. . Often times, for example, we hear people refer to non-standard varieties of English as "dialects", usually to say something bad about the non-standard variety (and thus about the people who speak it). This happened quite a bit during last year's ebonics controversy. But, the term dialect refers to ANY variety of a language. Thus, by definition, we all speak a dialect of our native language.

2) DIALECT is NOT synonymous with accent. Accent is only a part of dialectal variation. Non-linguists often think accents define a dialect (or that accents alone identify people as non-native or foreign language speakers). Also, non-linguists tend to think that it's always the "other" people that have "an accent". So, what is "accent"?

3) ACCENT: This term refers to phonological variation, i.e. variation in pronunciation Thus, if we talk about a Southern Accent, we're talking about a generalized property of English pronunciation in the Southern part of the US. But, Southern dialects have more than particular phonological properties. Accent is thus about pronunciation, while dialect is a broader term encompassing syntactic, morphological, and semantic properties as well.

.....

While the big picture is relatively simple, the world is a fuzzy and complex place. How do we know where one dialect begins and another ends? How do we even know if two language varieties are dialects of the same language or are dialects of different languages altogether? Let's set aside the first question for a moment, and address the second.

Many of you are speakers of "Southern" English (I use quotes because it is actually a BIG oversimplification to treat "Southern English" as a monolithic dialect), while I speak something akin to so-called standard English. (Though I grew up in the New York City metropolitan area, I do not have many of the linguistic properties in my dialect that are usually associated with that region.) Anyway, you can understand me in lecture, and I can understand you when you ask questions or come to talk to me in office hour. The point, to belabor the obvious, is that such communication is possible because although we may speak different dialects of English, the differences are not so great as to prevent us from understanding one another.

Regarding the issue of different languages, clearly there are cases where no one is going to wonder whether two speakers are speaking dialects of one language or whether they are speakers of different languages. So, if I come in and lecture to you in Spanish, I doubt that you'll scratch your heads and say, "Gee, is this a variety of English or is it something else?" But, there are many situations where the dividing line is far less clear.

There are a number of reasons why things get tricky, both linguistic and non-linguistic. A major linguistic complication comes in the form of what we call a dialect continuum. This is a situation in which there are a number of contiguous dialects that are closely related but that are not all mutually intelligible.

What's a dialect continuum?

To simplify somewhat, think of it this way. Imagine we've got ten dialects (1-10) in a row:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Now, imagine that each dialect is highly similar to its immediately adjacent neighbors, but that as we move farther away the similarities become fewer and fewer. So, 1 is very similar to 2, less similar to 3, even less similar to 4, and by the time we get to 8, 9 or 10, 1 is no longer mutually intelligible with these. By the criterion of mutual intelligibility, we'd want to thus say that 1 and 10 belong to different languages. That's fine. But what do we do about 5, which may be mutually intelligible with both 1 and 10? Which language does 5 belong to? How many different languages are we talking about here?

stole that from here:

http://www.unc.edu/~gerfen/Ling30Sp2002/so...inguistics.html

[Richard W]

Bina, is it is an Isan dictionary you want, or is it lists of the Isan words analogous to English 'shippen' and 'stirk'? There is a good deal of variation in the language of animal husbandry even within English - is a hog a sheep or a pig?

[meadish_sweetball]

but they will also use laos words just to confuse u if they are talking about getting money out of u or talking about u.

The reason for my reply to your first post was because of this statement. I realize you may have meant something else, but this implies that everyone happily goes around speaking Thai all the time, but use "some Lao words" when they want to skin foreigners for cash. Sorry if I misunderstood, but that is what I read from your post.

[bannork]

meadish sweetball,

Please don't be so polite to bkk barney, he's obviously an uneducated Londoner or possibly an American, look at his atrocious spelling and general wind-ups.

His claim that understanding Issan people is easier than comprehending Geordies, (for a native English speaker), is truly ludicrous, Barney, khee beuk men bor?ขี้บึกเเม่นบ่อ?

Admittedly, Gazza, the noted English footbell player from the northeast and the first person to fart audibly live on TV during an interview,( was it with John Motson or David Coleman? I forget), was never coherent even when sober,still one caught the nuances and general drift of conversation with ease; for the average range of vocabulary of a footballer doesn't extend beyond 200 words,(check out Beckham), whilst Issan has many different words for nouns,ie fruits,plants, trees, as well as verbs, adjectives, adverbs to Thai.

Many Bangkokians can't follow Issan conversation, so how come Barney is leading the pack?

Bannork.

[snowleopard]

meadish sweetball,

Please don't be so polite to bkk barney, he's obviously an uneducated Londoner or possibly an American, look at his atrocious spelling and general wind-ups.

His claim that understanding Issan people is easier than  comprehending Geordies, (for a native English speaker), is truly ludicrous, Barney, khee beuk men bor?ขี้บึกเเม่นบ่อ?

Admittedly, Gazza, the noted English footbell player from the northeast and the first person to fart audibly live on TV during an interview,( was it with John Motson or David Coleman? I forget), was never coherent even when sober,still one caught the nuances and general drift of conversation with ease; for the average range of vocabulary of a footballer doesn't extend beyond 200 words,(check out Beckham), whilst Issan has many different words for nouns,ie fruits,plants, trees, as well as verbs, adjectives, adverbs to Thai.

Many Bangkokians can't follow Issan conversation, so how come Barney is leading the pack?

Bannork.

Barney, khee beuk men bor?ขี้บึกเเม่นบ่อ?

Are you sure you got the Thai spelling right on that one?

Could it be this one you're groping for? ขี้บึกเหม็นบ่อ

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[bina]

well it looks like bkk barney got everybody up in arms; his ignorant and ego/ethnocentric comments are just a waste of time.

as a person interested in ethnogrophy the culture, music, food, language and language usage (differances between men and women in speech, tone, nuance etc) all interest me; forget about him, lets get back to the dictionaries........yes, richard, i would like a dictionary... although vocab. lists would be useful also....

[meadish_sweetball]

meadish sweetball,

Please don't be so polite to bkk barney, he's obviously an uneducated Londoner or possibly an American, look at his atrocious spelling and general wind-ups.

His claim that understanding Issan people is easier than  comprehending Geordies, (for a native English speaker), is truly ludicrous, Barney, khee beuk men bor?ขี้บึกเเม่นบ่อ?

Admittedly, Gazza, the noted English footbell player from the northeast and the first person to fart audibly live on TV during an interview,( was it with John Motson or David Coleman? I forget), was never coherent even when sober,still one caught the nuances and general drift of conversation with ease; for the average range of vocabulary of a footballer doesn't extend beyond 200 words,(check out Beckham), whilst Issan has many different words for nouns,ie fruits,plants, trees, as well as verbs, adjectives, adverbs to Thai.

Many Bangkokians can't follow Issan conversation, so how come Barney is leading the pack?

Bannork.

Barney, khee beuk men bor?ขี้บึกเเม่นบ่อ?

Are you sure you got the Thai spelling right on that one?

Could it be this one you're groping for? ขี้บึกเหม็นบ่อ

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

Snow, I think he is actually spelling it right, if he means "maen" as in "correct", "yes" - the Lao / Isaan / Kham Meuang equivalent of "châi".

'mâen bor' is Isaan/Lao for "châi mái". As for khîi bèuk, I am not sure... please enlighten us!

[snowleopard]

meadish sweetball,

Please don't be so polite to bkk barney, he's obviously an uneducated Londoner or possibly an American, look at his atrocious spelling and general wind-ups.

His claim that understanding Issan people is easier than  comprehending Geordies, (for a native English speaker), is truly ludicrous, Barney, khee beuk men bor?ขี้บึกเเม่นบ่อ?

Admittedly, Gazza, the noted English footbell player from the northeast and the first person to fart audibly live on TV during an interview,( was it with John Motson or David Coleman? I forget), was never coherent even when sober,still one caught the nuances and general drift of conversation with ease; for the average range of vocabulary of a footballer doesn't extend beyond 200 words,(check out Beckham), whilst Issan has many different words for nouns,ie fruits,plants, trees, as well as verbs, adjectives, adverbs to Thai.

Many Bangkokians can't follow Issan conversation, so how come Barney is leading the pack?

Bannork.

Barney, khee beuk men bor?ขี้บึกเเม่นบ่อ?

Are you sure you got the Thai spelling right on that one?

Could it be this one you're groping for? ขี้บึกเหม็นบ่อ

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

Snow, I think he is actually spelling it right, if he means "maen" as in "correct", "yes" - the Lao / Isaan / Kham Meuang equivalent of "châi".

'mâen bor' is Isaan/Lao for "châi mái". As for khîi bèuk, I am not sure... please enlighten us!

Barney, khee beuk men bor?ขี้บึกเเม่นบ่อ?

ขี้บึกเหม็นบ่อ

Really!

So what does the whole thing mean then?

I thought he was talking about ปลาบึก in a บ่อ.

ขี้ปลาบึก makes the pond smelly,or something like that.

Could you give me the correct translation of that mixed Thai/Lao sentence,Meadish?

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[meadish_sweetball]

Hi Snowy,

I am not sure my interpretation is right - but 'maen bor' normally means 'chai mai' . I am guessing that "khii beuk" could be used to describe someone who "refuses to back down", since there is a Central Thai expression, บึกบึน "beuk beun" that is primarily defined as " ทรหดอดทน " (irrelevant here), and secondly "ไม่ท้อถอย".

However, your interpretation is interesting and also sounds plausible at face value. I suppose we need bannork to come back and explain the phrase to us. I don't live in Isarn so I don't pretend to be an expert, I am just guessing based on what I know.

Another guess is that he meant to write " ปึก " which means "stupid" in Isaaan... but I am not sure....