Dumping Kids

[Mosha]

This has been on my mind a while, and a recently posted topic prompted me to post this. My expanded Thai family have at least 3 kids being looked after by others, other than their biological parents. One girl tragically lost her mum and dad to Aids. However until about 4 years back was passed from pillar to post in the family, she is part of the family by blood. However 2 others a girl now adult and a boy about 5 years of age are not related. The mothers were friends of the family they left the kids with, but since abandoning the kids have not been seen since. The kids in question are/were legally adopted. How common is this in Thailand?

[sbk]

You mean women abandoning their kids or children being raised in an extended family environment due to various reasons (such as death)?

I don't actually know that many women who have abandoned their kids (a few but out of hundreds who have not) but I do know many families who have taken on children of their brother (or sister) when the parents have died (One I know, he had 3 kids already, when his brother and sister-in-law died he took on their two kids as well). And it is very common for grandparents help raise the kids when the parents have to work (either away from home or for extended hours).

I also know of a few families who had quite a few kids giving one of the children to a childless relative to raise (always with both a mother and father) as their own. The child has always known who the birth parents were, and is usually raised by all of them. But living with the childless relatives.

[macleod101]

i know this is off-topic

in my scenario, my wife pays for 6 children, her parents and her grandfather

1 child is blood related

5 children have literally been dumped there..

i would say its very common, but its not the sort of thing you easily admit too..

[sbk]

I guess I have to add that the island I live on has always had a very tight knit community with large extended families, so it is uncommon for kids to be dumped with someone who doesn't want them. There will always be someone happy to take them.

[marquess]

My wife's dau dumped her kids and my previous girlfriend did the same, not so uncommon here!

Edited December 11, 2007 by marquess

[Mosha]

i know this is off-topic

in my scenario, my wife pays for 6 children, her parents and her grandfather

1 child is blood related

5 children have literally been dumped there..

i would say its very common, but its not the sort of thing you easily admit too..

You are not OT. That is exactly what I meant. Incidentally in the non related kids, it was done just after birth. The kids at the time have no idea the woman who raised them isn't their biological mum. The adult in this family now knows, but that is because of a bust up she started that got out of hand.

[Mosha]

I guess I have to add that the island I live on has always had a very tight knit community with large extended families, so it is uncommon for kids to be dumped with someone who doesn't want them. There will always be someone happy to take them.

In this family the kids have been raised as though they are family. The "damaged" one is the girl whose parents died of Aids. Because of the passing around she felt as though no one cared. She is settled now though and knows if she needs a place there is one with us. Her eldest uncle does support her finacially, he's just not good with emotional stuff. He was the first one to take her on after her parents died.

[LivinLOS]

My wife was abandoned by her mother..

I have known multiple girls who have had kids they had walked away from or were taken from them. My mate just left Thailand with his son as the mother wasnt suitable and didnt seem interested in using the kid for anything more than a bargaining chip.

Why this is so prevalent in Thailand I am unable to work out.

[macleod101]

i think because a lot of girls get pregnant by accident and can't afford to get it aborted...

[WongKarWai]

this is very common in Thailand. both dumping your kids on a blood relative and dumping them on a friend.

[GuestHouse]

Why are we restricting this discussion to women and Thais - There are plenty of foreign men in Thailand who have dumped their children in Thailand and wherever it is they came from.

I also know of a few families who had quite a few kids giving one of the children to a childless relative to raise (always with both a mother and father) as their own. The child has always known who the birth parents were, and is usually raised by all of them. But living with the childless relatives.

And if you'll excuse a detour out of Thailand, and indeed out of our times. It was considered a virtue in ancient Rome for parents who had several children to give some of their children away to childless couples.

Regarding why Thais leave their children with other people, I think the reasons are as varied as the parents who do this. But there clearly is a cultural norm of leaving children with grand parents (we could debate the pros and cons of that for a few pages I'm sure) however, I think this practice does set an expectation that people will not raise their own children - Hence leaving children with grandparents, aunts uncles of friends is probably more socially and emotionally acceptable.

One clear motive is of course where the child may get a better up bringing (more comfortable or with access to better education etc). I know of a number of expats in Thailand who have had children from their wife's extended families moved into the 'rich uncle's new house'.

I also have an expat friend who suffered the 'Child of a friend' being literally dumped on him. The child's mother giving some excuse about needing to go into town alone and then disappearing - He and his wife managed to track her down several moths later at time when they had become attached to the child - Catching up with the mother and then handing back the child was he recounts one of the most difficult decisions he has ever had to make.

(I wrap all this up with the other things I bring to mind when ever I hear someone insisting that 'Thais really love children')

[WongKarWai]

seriously, this is so unbelievably common that i would wager that atleast 25%+ of Thais or more are raised by someone other than their parent for at least a year or more in their youth... for those in the lower income brackets its probably closer to 50%+

since kids take care of parents i guess it is seen as the best system. let the parent earn money and not have to worry about the kid. let the grand parent who cant work take care of the child. let the parent support the child and grand parent.

Edited December 11, 2007 by WongKarWai

[kat]

Yes, I think it's very common in Thailand. Besides hearing about it from a friend who worked at a foundation, I saw it up close in the household of my Som Tam lady. Her son moved in with his 6-7 months pregnant girlfriend, and then both were promptly gone once the baby was born and left with grandma

[Dakhar]

But there clearly is a cultural norm of leaving children with grand parents (we could debate the pros and cons of that for a few pages I'm sure)

You see this a lot in the Hispanic culture in the US. It is to the point where it is part of the culture, and it is just expected, much like Thailand....

But guess what? As the US economy goes to pot, you also see this becoming more mainstream in the US culture as well. It is a sign of the times.

[kat]

But there clearly is a cultural norm of leaving children with grand parents (we could debate the pros and cons of that for a few pages I'm sure)

You see this a lot in the Hispanic culture in the US. It is to the point where it is part of the culture, and it is just expected, much like Thailand....

But guess what? As the US economy goes to pot, you also see this becoming more mainstream in the US culture as well. It is a sign of the times.

Actually, I'm sorry but you don't see this dumping in latino and black cultures in the U.S. I am from those cultures, and there have been PLENTY of hard times before this one. It is common for the grandparents and extended family to babysit and provide *childcare, but I have not seen the widespread dumping that I have seen in Thailand. There is also a welfare net for single mothers in the US, as well as adoption agencies, so that may also have a lot to do with it.

However, you used a bad example, because latino households are the least likely to give their babies up for adoption as well. What ends up happening is that grandma takes care of the kid while mom works all day and picks them up at night.

*edit - there is also a commercial child care infrastructure in the US as well, albeit with its own problems, but it exists.

Edited December 11, 2007 by kat

[torrenova]

My experience is that Thais don't generally have much sense of responsibility and unfortunately that entends to their offspring.

I understand there are times when economics necessitate that parents work away and the extended family looks after them but I see so many who are dumped by their parents, largely on their grandparents, so the parents can be "free" of the responsibility and get on enjoying their life.

As for working girls, the traditional "theory" that they have to "work" to support their baby is total <deleted> in many cases. They do so because they want to be free of the baby, continue their youth, go party and lastly earn some cash, precious little of which ever gets back home. They do not want to do a regular job and search for the easy money.

[kat]

Well also, there is more age related pressure on a female in Thailand to find a husband before thirty. You add a kid into the mix and she is sunk ..... except if she can find a farang man, and that still involves work.

[macleod101]

i would like to find out more about 'y thai's leave their childrenb with grandparents & extended family...

my wife was brought up by her grandparents, her mum visited once a year, yet she still swears blinde her mum's got her best interests at heart...

i come from a western culuture and i still can't make anysence of it...

[Boo]

hubbies mum looks after 2 grandkids, one a girl of 14 was dumped at 3 months by my sister in law & no one saw hide nor hair of her till she rocked up 6 years ago with a new thai husband in tow bragging about how much land he had & how good her life was, fast forward to now & she has a 4year old son with the husband & is midway through another pregnancy, the hubby turned out to be an alchy gambler, he is land wealthy but totally bannork & doesn't have any kind of of modern convinience in the house, she is desperate to get back to my mother in laws but she has basically refused to allow her to come home, especially with another 2 kids in tow the risk is too great that she will dump them too.

The other kid the MIL looks after is my brother in laws daughter, he & his wife work at a truck company in bangkok, send money every month & spend whateevr free time they have (several days a month) at mums house with their daughter. Two totally different senarios from one family. Mum in law even wondered if we were leaving our son as we would be returning to UK & had to work with a newborn, she was a bit confused when we said no, we will take him back with us thanks

Why people dump I don't know but I have heard more thai cases than from anywhere else.!

[kat]

Your MIL's question shed some light on it though; probably new developments of the remnants of an agricultural society: those able to do the physical labor of work go out and work, and the older members take care of the children. In modern migratory times, it amounts to dumping now in the worst circumstances, and more akin to the old way in the best.

[torrenova]

Your MIL's question shed some light on it though; probably new developments of the remnants of an agricultural society: those able to do the physical labor of work go out and work, and the older members take care of the children. In modern migratory times, it amounts to dumping now in the worst circumstances, and more akin to the old way in the best.

I think you make a very valid point but part of the argument where Thais shirk their responsibility remains unanswered.

[WongKarWai]

my past gf was raised by relatives, whom she disliked, and she hated her mother for it.

[kat]

Torrenova:

Yeah, I think there may be the social breakdown in the deal. It would take some research to ascertain if this is a more widespread thing than in the past, and how much so. From things I have read while in Thailand, there is definitely a perceived breakdown in the Thai family by Thais. Much of this has to do with migratory patterns into the city for work, and other factors. I think traditionally, it may have worked rather well as in the case of Boo's brother-in-law, kids get raised by grandparents with weaker labor value, while money gets redirected to them by higher valued labor members.

But as in all societies, there are those that exploit tradition or conventional scenarios. Of course, Thailand has its unique aspects as well, and I am sure that needing to find a husband factors in significantly for Thai females (*which of course, could be viewed as having a high labor value by the grandparents, especially if she is looking for a farang - pretty much her only chances once she has a child).

Edited December 11, 2007 by kat

[torrenova]

My wife was raised by relatives for a couple of years whilst her mother was working in Korea and Taiwan. The money sent back to keep her was spent by the relatives on anything else apart from my wife, her sister and her brother. The relative's kids benefitted but not the intended ones. This is repeated with the money the girls send home from working as prostitutes.

Another factor to throw into the research pot is the change from a subsistance farming economy to a manufacturing and services one. Aspirations have risen far beyond economic progression all the way to the absurd. In Buriram, I saw a family house with missing windows, part of a roof off, it still looked like a building site, yet the family had gone into debt to buy a 28" LCD flat screen TV to watch those pointless Thai soap operas. Now that is consumerism gone mad.

[bina]

among the russian (previous ussr) immigrants that are here in israel, a large percentage are single mothers (married, one child divorced/abandoned) and/or couple who either live with grandmother (not a lot of grandfathers among them: alcoholism and earlier death?)or close to grandmother and the scenario is the same: parents or parent works, grandmother is prime caretaker. i saw it a lot at the local health clinics when grandma takes child for eye appointmet/ear specialist. mother/parents are working, or have split.

dont forget if the mother remarries, there may be a problem with bringing child from previous marriage into the equation. men seem to not want to accept child from previous male, therefor child is raised by grandparent. this also may be why some thai women 'dump' their previous kid/s on grandparents, fearing 'new' husband/bf will not want 'her' if she has 'baggage'?; possibily fear that new male might be problematic for step child (step daughters in particular.) and i've heard this from women (not necessarily thai in this case but it is a scenario). and of course, third or fourth generation families that were raised by non functional or absentee parents, maybe they just dont know how to parent.

we spend time and energy agonizing and reading up on child rearing, food diets, education. how many lower income/agricultural thai women read up or get educated about child rearing? not to be condescending towards thai females from villages, for sure i dont know about poor thai mothers in large cities, but from my own experience with the thai men here, and my husband, (they) he really doesnt know much about 'father' roles or 'mother' roles: he was also raised by grandmother as father was hunter gone from home for weeks, mother worked in fields. although he understands that i wont leave my youngest daughter to move to thailand (yet), he couldnt see what the problem was to leave her with her father and new wife since she would be 'taken care of...'. parental support/guidance wasnt in the equation. being fed/clothed/sent to school was. to him its not abandonment.

apart from their role models which have changed with the breakdown of agricultural extended family set ups and migration to large cities and overseas- (how many generations since 1970+s?)- how many thai men and women are children of children of those men that migrated first to saudi arabia and then in the 1980's to israel and wherever? how many are products of absentee parents two generations? parenting is a 'copycat' occupation. what u see and experience is how u learn to do it also. if u have the tools, u can change and improve, but if u dont have the ways/means/knowledge? then u just carry on... if mom didnt raise u, than its ok if u also leave your kid with grandparent/aunt/sister. generations of dysfunction.

now the ethiopian immigrants here have the same scenario. grandparents are the primary caretakers, within the same household or not. family is perceived as 'extended is the same as parents' ... here, the pressure on young mothers (they marry young), economic realities (no jobs/no money, no longer agricultural, rise in alcoholism among the men, status of the men reduced blablabla) means leaving grandma to raise the kids is seen as acceptable.

many of the kids i worked with in 'closed' (dormitory) school were kids that were being raised by grandparent that had become too elderly to really function or deal with wild teenagers. parents were absentee or holding down two jobs and unable to parent. no real role models for parenting here either.

i think maybe there are two different scenarios. the 'dumping' is one (in which case, as kat pointed out, in the states, the welfare system might step in and foster/adopt the kid out) and to differentiate, leaving kid with relatives cause parent/parents are working is the second scenario, born out of previous agricultural necessity but now just as needed as parents seek money overseas.

the filipinas here are all in the same boat.

and as someone pointed out, the money sent home doesnt always reach its intended recipient.

lots of good stuff here for someone doing a doctorate....

bina

israel

as usual not sure if i was clear on the keyboard...

Edited December 12, 2007 by bina

[blizzard]

can someone go over the attraction of marrying rural thai gurks again.

[Heng]

There's the pro and con side, like all things. For better or worse, many folks on this board have dealings with lower income Thais so the grandparents or aunts and uncles taking care of any particular grandkids and/or nieces and nephews might easily have a negative spin to it. That's just a fact of life, more "bad" things happen to poor people. Higher rates of babies born out of wedlock, HIV infection, motorcycle and packed to the rim pickup truck accidents, heck: higher death rates from all kinds of things full stop. For a lot of folks, sometimes difficult decisions need to be made when your own choices are sh*t end or sh*ttier end of the stick.

There are several degrees to this cohesive family structure though that isn't limited to a child being "given" to grandparents or relatives and then seen a few times a year by said parents. In our family for example, we've had children (and relatives of all ages for that matter) stay with us and often fully supported by us for extended periods of time, sometimes years and years on end (compare to cultures where inlaws have a welcome window measured in days and weeks) for as long as I can remember. Kids whose families could barely afford tuition so we'd offer to help with room/board for example (both in the US and in Thailand) or folks who wanted to get a start stateside but needed a little family support in terms of job opportunities and later on down the road, startup capital. I've rarely seen anything negative coming out of these situations. Overall, IMO it only strengthens the family and on an individual level helps to keep folks from having to make the kinds of decisions you see at the other end of the spectrum. IMO the system works so well in fact that when my expat friends and I discuss these matters... there are often comments of "well that's not really fair for folks who don't have the same kind of family as you do."

For others, at lesser degrees, I've seen families and groups of relatives where one particular family unit is permanently responsible for day care, running the school car pool, or the ones most active in supporting extracurricular activities like sports or attending private tutorial schools.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Heng

[blizzard]

too tired to read.

i think the system blows sir. im talking bout the village as a gorup, not individuals who somehow got out and made it. the system just keeps them from dying, so to say.

[Heng]

That's natural selection for you.

[Dakhar]

But there clearly is a cultural norm of leaving children with grand parents (we could debate the pros and cons of that for a few pages I'm sure)

You see this a lot in the Hispanic culture in the US. It is to the point where it is part of the culture, and it is just expected, much like Thailand....

But guess what? As the US economy goes to pot, you also see this becoming more mainstream in the US culture as well. It is a sign of the times.

Actually, I'm sorry but you don't see this dumping in latino and black cultures in the U.S. I am from those cultures, and there have been PLENTY of hard times before this one. It is common for the grandparents and extended family to babysit and provide *childcare, but I have not seen the widespread dumping that I have seen in Thailand. There is also a welfare net for single mothers in the US, as well as adoption agencies, so that may also have a lot to do with it.

However, you used a bad example, because latino households are the least likely to give their babies up for adoption as well. What ends up happening is that grandma takes care of the kid while mom works all day and picks them up at night.

*edit - there is also a commercial child care infrastructure in the US as well, albeit with its own problems, but it exists.

I didn't even mention "black culture." But apparently your are more of an expert about America than I am. I mean what do I know, I am just an American, that lived along the Mexican border for most of my life & my last city to live in was El Paso, Tx.

But hey, like I said... I am sure you are by far more qualified than I.