Dumping Kids

[Dakhar]

In America, my wife was a stay at home mom. I THOUGHT that this was the ideal situation, she did not think it was ideal. To her, ideal is living in Thailand, working 6-7 days a week, alowing her sister to raise our son, and spending the evening hours with our son. That is what she would rather have than being the one to directly raise our son.

Now she would like to have another child, me being from a different culture, find it a little hard to understand why someone would want to have another child, and not really be the one to raise that child? She is not from a farming family, more or less a wealthy family. (By no means Heng's status) So I don't think it is a "Hick" mentallity, it seems to be just the way things are done.

[IMA_FARANG]

This has been on my mind a while, and a recently posted topic prompted me to post this. My expanded Thai family have at least 3 kids being looked after by others, other than their biological parents. One girl tragically lost her mum and dad to Aids. However until about 4 years back was passed from pillar to post in the family, she is part of the family by blood. However 2 others a girl now adult and a boy about 5 years of age are not related. The mothers were friends of the family they left the kids with, but since abandoning the kids have not been seen since. The kids in question are/were legally adopted. How common is this in Thailand?

It isn't uncommon in Asia, and Thailand included, to have children being raised by the extended family, such as cousins or grandmothers. Can be for a various number of reasons. Thai men are often know for "devorcing" their wives, which often simply means abandoning them and the children without support. Often in that case a member of the extended family will assume the role of mother or father to the child, in that person is in a position to take care of the burden and expense of raising the child.

My Thai girlfriend raised 3 children of her own, now all grown. Her eldest daughter's husband simply left (ran away) from his marriage without a paying a cent to take care of his daughter (real nice guy isn't he). He can't say he was too poor, his family is relatively well off, and could have afforded to take care of the daughter. Anyhow, my Thai girlfriend, at 59 years of age, is raising the granddaughter, on my money. Oh well, the granddaughter is a bright and happy 10 year old now. She does well in school, and my girlfriend is feeling like a mother again. It's making her feel young again at 59 and happy to be needed and useful.

So it goes.

[Heng]

Of course, I didn't mean to say it was a clear cut wealthy vs. poor divide either.

It's easy to put a negative spin on things when one is already feeling negative towards something to begin with. People who have relatives care for their children while they are young "must" be bad. Nevermind that 20-30-40+ years later, these people often still live in close contact and often still live *as a family* under the same roof... which you'll often ALSO hear is "bad." The most correct conclusion, neither bad nor good, is that it's simply not the same as what you're used to. Another conclusion that can be made is that you're apparently in a negative mood about something, and it might be good for your own psychological health to get to the bottom of it.

[chownah]

I think that in the US there are alot of young parents who don't really want to be doing it (parenting) and consequently are doing a bad job of it but social mores being what they are there they get stuck with it and the children suffer bad parenting as a result. In Thailand it is easier for the Thai counterparts (Thai parents who don't really want to be raising children) to hand off the kids to someone else (because of the social mores in Thailand) and probably to a certain extent the children benefit from this in that there is a better chance that someone who accepts the children will be a more engaged parent than someone who is handing the children away.

The difference in frequency of the handoff betweent the two cultures is because of the difference in social mores......and the result is that overall the Thai children probably benefit because of the close family structure which make handing off a child a more acceptable alternative to neglect and abuse.

Chownah

Edited December 12, 2007 by chownah

[thaihome]

But there clearly is a cultural norm of leaving children with grand parents (we could debate the pros and cons of that for a few pages I'm sure)

You see this a lot in the Hispanic culture in the US. It is to the point where it is part of the culture, and it is just expected, much like Thailand....

But guess what? As the US economy goes to pot, you also see this becoming more mainstream in the US culture as well. It is a sign of the times.

Actually, I'm sorry but you don't see this dumping in latino and black cultures in the U.S. I am from those cultures, and there have been PLENTY of hard times before this one. It is common for the grandparents and extended family to babysit and provide *childcare, but I have not seen the widespread dumping that I have seen in Thailand. There is also a welfare net for single mothers in the US, as well as adoption agencies, so that may also have a lot to do with it.

However, you used a bad example, because latino households are the least likely to give their babies up for adoption as well. What ends up happening is that grandma takes care of the kid while mom works all day and picks them up at night.

*edit - there is also a commercial child care infrastructure in the US as well, albeit with its own problems, but it exists.

I think if you go back to the migration of blacks from the rural south to the northern urban areas that took place back in 20’s, 30’s and 40’s you will find that is was common for young parents to leave the kids with grandparents and move north, with the hope that someday the kids would be able to join them or enough money would be made to move back.

Similar to what is happening in Thailand today.

TH

[kat]

But there clearly is a cultural norm of leaving children with grand parents (we could debate the pros and cons of that for a few pages I'm sure)

You see this a lot in the Hispanic culture in the US. It is to the point where it is part of the culture, and it is just expected, much like Thailand....

But guess what? As the US economy goes to pot, you also see this becoming more mainstream in the US culture as well. It is a sign of the times.

But there clearly is a cultural norm of leaving children with grand parents (we could debate the pros and cons of that for a few pages I'm sure)

You see this a lot in the Hispanic culture in the US. It is to the point where it is part of the culture, and it is just expected, much like Thailand....

But guess what? As the US economy goes to pot, you also see this becoming more mainstream in the US culture as well. It is a sign of the times.

Actually, I'm sorry but you don't see this dumping in latino and black cultures in the U.S. I am from those cultures, and there have been PLENTY of hard times before this one. It is common for the grandparents and extended family to babysit and provide *childcare, but I have not seen the widespread dumping that I have seen in Thailand. There is also a welfare net for single mothers in the US, as well as adoption agencies, so that may also have a lot to do with it.

However, you used a bad example, because latino households are the least likely to give their babies up for adoption as well. What ends up happening is that grandma takes care of the kid while mom works all day and picks them up at night.

*edit - there is also a commercial child care infrastructure in the US as well, albeit with its own problems, but it exists.

I didn't even mention "black culture." But apparently your are more of an expert about America than I am. I mean what do I know, I am just an American, that lived along the Mexican border for most of my life & my last city to live in was El Paso, Tx.

But hey, like I said... I am sure you are by far more qualified than I.

First of all, you talked about general "Hispanic and mainstream US Culture" but then go on to cite a very specific culture of MIGRANTS along the border. That is a culture in transition and completely differentiated from both "Hispanic" culture and mainstream culture.

I think that in the US there are alot of young parents who don't really want to be doing it (parenting) and consequently are doing a bad job of it but social mores being what they are there they get stuck with it and the children suffer bad parenting as a result. In Thailand it is easier for the Thai counterparts (Thai parents who don't really want to be raising children) to hand off the kids to someone else (because of the social mores in Thailand) and probably to a certain extent the children benefit from this in that there is a better chance that someone who accepts the children will be a more engaged parent than someone who is handing the children away.

The difference in frequency of the handoff betweent the two cultures is because of the difference in social mores......and the result is that overall the Thai children probably benefit because of the close family structure which make handing off a child a more acceptable alternative to neglect and abuse.

Chownah

I think there are people everywhere that don't want to be parents, but I think that's more true among populations that do not plan families. I think it is a big stretch to say that this works better in Thailand, especially when it is associated with other widespread social issues, such as abandonment, lack of legal, financial, and social support for single mothers, and pressures placed on female children for the repayment of breast milk.

I think if you go back to the migration of blacks from the rural south to the northern urban areas that took place back in 20’s, 30’s and 40’s you will find that is was common for young parents to leave the kids with grandparents and move north, with the hope that someday the kids would be able to join them or enough money would be made to move back.

Similar to what is happening in Thailand today.

TH

I am not discounting that grandparents of past or present do not raise children, but it is not similar to Thailand. The Great Migration to the North and

West in the United States had different aspects depending on when and where. There were a lot more lone male migrations to the West, and many more family migrations to the North, which is why so many settlement societies sprung up to help take care of the overcrowding of schools and children. During WWI, there were a lot more industrial opportunities available to women to replace the men at war, and so there was a larger female migration during that time. However, these were anomalies to what was considered normal, and not diversions from a normal social contract. At other times, it was common for males to migrate, and for females to stay behind in multi-generational female households, and raise children and pool household resources.

In Thailand, I think the agricultural-based social contracts may have been similar in the past (and children worked at a younger age anyway), but the basis of migration and social structure is completely different. *Also, the "Great Migration" in Thailand, is overwhelmingly female.

Edited December 12, 2007 by kat

[astral]

IME families here in LOS are very good at looking after young members who have lost one or both parents.

Something the west could do well to emulate.

[chownah]

I think that in the US there are alot of young parents who don't really want to be doing it (parenting) and consequently are doing a bad job of it but social mores being what they are there they get stuck with it and the children suffer bad parenting as a result. In Thailand it is easier for the Thai counterparts (Thai parents who don't really want to be raising children) to hand off the kids to someone else (because of the social mores in Thailand) and probably to a certain extent the children benefit from this in that there is a better chance that someone who accepts the children will be a more engaged parent than someone who is handing the children away.

The difference in frequency of the handoff betweent the two cultures is because of the difference in social mores......and the result is that overall the Thai children probably benefit because of the close family structure which make handing off a child a more acceptable alternative to neglect and abuse.

Chownah

I think there are people everywhere that don't want to be parents, but I think that's more true among populations that do not plan families. I think it is a big stretch to say that this works better in Thailand, especially when it is associated with other widespread social issues, such as abandonment, lack of legal, financial, and social support for single mothers, and pressures placed on female children for the repayment of breast milk.

I did not intend to imply that the Thai culture had some magic bullet to solve this problem....only that a society which facilitates children being raised by those more willing to do so will likely end up with better child care......and that it appears to me that Thailands social mores which enables children being raised by people other than the biological parents is probably better than the social mores in the US which tends to inhibit this transfer of responsibility.....that's all.

Chownah

[Dakhar]

First of all, you talked about general "Hispanic and mainstream US Culture" but then go on to cite a very specific culture of MIGRANTS along the border. That is a culture in transition and completely differentiated from both "Hispanic" culture and mainstream culture

I did? Not only do you know more about America than I do, you know more about my posts that I do. Simply amazing. Like, I never knew I went on to "cite" the migrants along the border. I mean really, all this time I thought I was refering to the Hispanics that live there since before America purchased that territory. That is an amazing ability you got there.

[kat]

Well, yes, I do have the ability to read, so thank you. And because of this "amazing ability" I choose to no longer read or respond to your silly posts.

Your previous quotes:

"You see this a lot in the Hispanic culture in the US. It is to the point where it is part of the culture, and it is just expected, much like Thailand....

But guess what? As the US economy goes to pot, you also see this becoming more mainstream in the US culture as well. It is a sign of the times."

*I can't have a discussion with you if you don't clarify or misrepresent what it is you are trying to discuss. And, I don't have the patience for your quick-fix solution of blaming someone else for your lack of clarity, either.

Edited December 13, 2007 by kat

[Dakhar]

In the future, I will type slower for you.

[kat]

Well, you should first try to figure out what the hel_l it is you're talking about before you even begin to type. Then, there should be no problems ...

[chicowoodduck]

this is very common in Thailand. both dumping your kids on a blood relative and dumping them on a friend.

Somehow, the word "dumped" is not always the accurate term in my mind. My GF runs a very successful internet/travel business and doesn't always have the quality time available to be a 24/7 mother. Her family gladly takes on the child rearing responsibilities for large portions of the year (excluding school holidays). I just think back to when my kids were young and I dropped them off at the child care center for most of the day or left them with the grandmother on a weekend so I could take care of my "making a living" job. It was never the "ideal" situation, but I made it work, as does my GF, and hopefully it turns out to be a win, win situation.

[Dakhar]

Well, you should first try to figure out what the hel_l it is you're talking about before you even begin to type. Then, there should be no problems ...

I thought that is what you did... I mean, adding things such as black culture and migrant culture etc to my statements. You seem to have the tallent of climbing into my wee little mind and telling me what my point is.

Thank you for doing that, it makes trying to communicate with a simpleton so much easier.

[JR Texas]

this is very common in Thailand. both dumping your kids on a blood relative and dumping them on a friend.

We are basically raising two "abandoned" kids, all connected by blood to the extended family. In each case the father of the child is poor and the mother ran off with another man (my guess is that they left because the husbands could not make a decent living).

The odd thing is that the mothers left their children behind........seems so odd to me, but maybe more common in Thailand than I thought. The mothers do not even visit the children. I am not sure if their new husbands even know about the abandonments.

[Dakhar]

this is very common in Thailand. both dumping your kids on a blood relative and dumping them on a friend.

Somehow, the word "dumped" is not always the accurate term in my mind. My GF runs a very successful internet/travel business and doesn't always have the quality time available to be a 24/7 mother. Her family gladly takes on the child rearing responsibilities for large portions of the year (excluding school holidays). I just think back to when my kids were young and I dropped them off at the child care center for most of the day or left them with the grandmother on a weekend so I could take care of my "making a living" job. It was never the "ideal" situation, but I made it work, as does my GF, and hopefully it turns out to be a win, win situation.

Oh yes, you are correct, Americans pretty much do the same, but for us, paying a stranger to raise our children seems more advanced.

[Dakhar]

this is very common in Thailand. both dumping your kids on a blood relative and dumping them on a friend.

We are basically raising two "abandoned" kids, all connected by blood to the extended family. In each case the father of the child is poor and the mother ran off with another man (my guess is that they left because the husbands could not make a decent living).

The odd thing is that the mothers left their children behind........seems so odd to me, but maybe more common in Thailand than I thought. The mothers do not even visit the children. I am not sure if their new husbands even know about the abandonments.

Got that in the village, kids having kids, kids still attractive, still want a life beyond parenthood, so they just give up the baby to the grandparents and wash their hands of it.

At the place I work, we have a lot of girls that have children and you would never know it if you did not see them while they were pregnant. They have their baby, pass it on up the road (Isan) and never really speak of their baby again. This is even with married girls.

It seems to me, here, you do not raise your child, you raise your grandchild.

[onzestan]

Nobody has picked-up on the fact that it happens in Thailand mainly because they can get away with it.

In the western world they couldn't because of existing law.

Whether that's a good thing or not thats an entirely different question.

Here in Thailand the "dumped" children are not raised by parents who rather wouldn't have them if they had a choice.

I'm not sure which is the best for the children involved.

There's a big row now in The Netherlands over the dutch consul in Hong Kong and his wife, that DUMPED a 6 year old girl that they had adopted in Korea years before, because as they claim the child could not adapt to their lifestyle. The girl is now in an orphanage in Hong Kong.

Sad, very sad........

onzestan

[wolfmanjack]

Nobody has picked-up on the fact that it happens in Thailand mainly because they can get away with it.

In the western world they couldn't because of existing law.

Whether that's a good thing or not thats an entirely different question.

Here in Thailand the "dumped" children are not raised by parents who rather wouldn't have them if they had a choice.

I'm not sure which is the best for the children involved.

onzestan

I would say that being dumped on grandparents is better than being aborted.

[onzestan]

I would say that being dumped on grandparents is better than being aborted.

Absolutely, no 2 ways about it. And may I add that I didn't want to imply that.

onzestan

[LivinLOS]

this is very common in Thailand. both dumping your kids on a blood relative and dumping them on a friend.

Somehow, the word "dumped" is not always the accurate term in my mind. My GF runs a very successful internet/travel business and doesn't always have the quality time available to be a 24/7 mother. Her family gladly takes on the child rearing responsibilities for large portions of the year (excluding school holidays). I just think back to when my kids were young and I dropped them off at the child care center for most of the day or left them with the grandmother on a weekend so I could take care of my "making a living" job. It was never the "ideal" situation, but I made it work, as does my GF, and hopefully it turns out to be a win, win situation.

However your describing a system of fairly acceptable, happy and healthy extended family care.. Thats not perhaps the 'dumping' that some of us mean..

this is very common in Thailand. both dumping your kids on a blood relative and dumping them on a friend.

We are basically raising two "abandoned" kids, all connected by blood to the extended family. In each case the father of the child is poor and the mother ran off with another man (my guess is that they left because the husbands could not make a decent living).

The odd thing is that the mothers left their children behind........seems so odd to me, but maybe more common in Thailand than I thought. The mothers do not even visit the children. I am not sure if their new husbands even know about the abandonments.

Thats far more along the lines of what I see that really shocks / surprises me.. Its pretty much what happened to my ex missus as a kid.. She was actually discovered by the local school teacher after not going to school for 3 days, the mother had wandered off to get drunk and play cards non stop and wifey and her sister and brother were left alone, hungry, and not knowing what to do.. After that the teacher took the children to an aunt and then she was pushed from family member to family member where no one really wanted the financial problems of bringing her up for the rest of her short childhood. That kind of 'dumped' !!!

[kat]

But there clearly is a cultural norm of leaving children with grand parents (we could debate the pros and cons of that for a few pages I'm sure)

You see this a lot in the Hispanic culture in the US. It is to the point where it is part of the culture, and it is just expected, much like Thailand....

But guess what? As the US economy goes to pot, you also see this becoming more mainstream in the US culture as well. It is a sign of the times.

First of all, you talked about general "Hispanic and mainstream US Culture" but then go on to cite a very specific culture of MIGRANTS along the border. That is a culture in transition and completely differentiated from both "Hispanic" culture and mainstream culture

I did? Not only do you know more about America than I do, you know more about my posts that I do. Simply amazing. Like, I never knew I went on to "cite" the migrants along the border. I mean really, all this time I thought I was refering to the Hispanics that live there since before America purchased that territory. That is an amazing ability you got there.

Well, you should first try to figure out what the hel_l it is you're talking about before you even begin to type. Then, there should be no problems ...

I thought that is what you did... I mean, adding things such as black culture and migrant culture etc to my statements. You seem to have the tallent of climbing into my wee little mind and telling me what my point is.

Thank you for doing that, it makes trying to communicate with a simpleton so much easier.

Really? Well, you must be looking in the mirror. And, I don't think there's much else that can fit into your "wee little" mind except yourself.

(Warning to others - a very tedious list of the obvious follows):

"Hispanic" culture in the U.S. is a very broad term. It encompasses your border town and New Mexico, Puerto-Ricans in New York, Mexicans in L.A., migrants and illegal immigrants, El Salvadoreans and Guatamalens in Maryland and DC, El Salvadoreans and Guatamalens in East Harlem, El Salvadoreans and Gutamalens in Upstate New York, Nicaraguans, Brazilians, Colombians, Venezuelans, Chileans, Argentinians, Panamanians, Cubans in Miami, and on and on. It is a very broad stretch to then hypothesize that El Paso, TX on the border of both Mexico and New Mexico is indicative of the panoramic "Hispanic" and American "mainstream" culture - 'ya think?

Guess what? If you mention "mainstream" culture, that also means black, white, and everything else in between that is part of the established norm of predominant social patterns. Mexican-Americans in New Mexico are a COMPLETELY different demographic than Mexican-Americans in L.A., and areas near the border of Mexico are largely shaped by porous borders and migration back and forth of both past and present, but will reflect the specific settlement and migratory patterns of that specific place. In some cases such as Southern California, you have women that migrate without families to work as household help, but that is dictated by MIGRATION and not culture, as I previously stated.

No where, is it a frickin' mainstream or singularly "hispanic" characteristic to abandon or dump children with their grandparents except in your "wee little" and very myopic view of things.

[sbk]

Lets keep this civil please

[Dakhar]

Then keep it fair.

Kat, your words:

"I choose to no longer read or respond to your silly posts."

Please abide by them.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Dakhar

[sbk]

Sorry, forgot to add....

BOTH of you!!!

[Scott]

Dogs and kids seem to get dumped fairly easily here. Fortunately, most of the kids are reasonably well provided for.

A lot of parents have to travel for work, meaning the relatives have to take care of them.

[Mosha]

As the OP (no not Old Person at least not yet) perhaps I should clarify my intent. Although I did mention kids being left with family they are not usually with strangers. What I mean't was within weeks of birth, so that the bairn is not aware of his/her birth mother. My wife and eldest sister was left with an Aunt by her mum. because their mum got fed up of her husbands infidellity. He must have been a smooth talker, has he fathered a few kids on his sister in law. However my wife does not feel she was abandoned, her sister does but that is another issue.

My original intent if not clear, was with leaving the kids with non related people and never ever seeing the offspring again.

Also yes keep the posts civil, otherwise I'll request a closure.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Mosha

[JSPS]

My wife's mother had 7 daughters, each with a different man and dumped them all with various relative. My wife was treated as a servant and was not allowed to go to school or anything. When she was 9 her aunt came from Bangkok and took her there. She was still a servant for Yai but when she reached 14 her aunt took her to the bars with her.

She's still more than a little bitter about her mother and the realtive she was dumped with. But she greatly admired her aunt who managed to work her way up to owning her own bar and was known to help the working girls.

TIT. (This Is Thailand)

A girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do. She never had any kids in Thailand and was very upset when her aunt died in 1992. She attemded her parent funerals but only because of a feeling of familial obligation. But we only really miss all really miss her aunt.

Of course, I was a somewhat alcoholic American GI and she was a Bangkok bar girl. Those pairing never work out.

We've been married for 37 years now. Just to piss off the people that said it wouldn't work. We never had a marriage ceremony, just signed the book at the Amphur and went on our merry way. We are considering getting married for our 50th anniversary, if only for the children's sake.

Thai's are very interesting people. Not any better or worse than anyone else I think, just more open about it.

I'm a 911 dispatcher in the States. Tonight I had a call from a mother who was strung out on heroin that was complaining because her eldest daughter had come and taken two of her other daughters just to get them away from her drugging and abuse. Some kids need to be dumped. Their chances of trading up are very good.

[icemaniac]

Are you for real? This practice is MAINSTREAM in the U.S.? Give me a break. The practice shows that most Thais have trouble bonding with their chilfdren and don't care to raise them themselves. And it has nothing to do with poverty either. I live in a moban with wealthy thais and the majority of them have their uneducated maids and nannies raising the kids. They want nothing to do with them. Life is cheap in Thailand. get used to that idea those who are planning on living here.

But there clearly is a cultural norm of leaving children with grand parents (we could debate the pros and cons of that for a few pages I'm sure)

You see this a lot in the Hispanic culture in the US. It is to the point where it is part of the culture, and it is just expected, much like Thailand....

But guess what? As the US economy goes to pot, you also see this becoming more mainstream in the US culture as well. It is a sign of the times.

[chinadarling]

i think because a lot of girls get pregnant by accident and can't afford to get it aborted...

not money

religious belief

if there are those willing to take them, then it is ok.

BC of course is smarter