Anyone Tried Those Septic Tank Systems That Convert To Clean Water?

[sbk]

After reading Beardog's septic tank thread it reminded me that we are going to need to replace ours (concrete ring type) soon as it just isn't working so well anymore (18 years on--too many customers, water table too high etc).

However, we would prefer to install one of those septic systems that produces clean water (obviously nothing we would drink! but would be ok to use on the garden etc). My husband thinks the tank costs about 7500 but for setting it up and everything else, he's not sure.

So, before we do this (sometime next year) we would be interested in hearing from anyone who has set one of these systems up.

First and most important question, does it work?

Does it fill up too quickly or does it really process the waste in a timely manner? is the set up expensive?

and finally, does it really work? (I know, I know, I asked this one already, but I just find it kind of hard to believe!)

[lopburi3]

I sure don't know of any such 8k tank that makes "clean" water. Our last septic tank cost 8k years ago and currently runs about 12k and from the smell from entry into gray water line it would not be something you would want to water your lawn with (although it seems to vary - perhaps high water levels empty it out too soon).

[sbk]

Thats what my husband heard, it somehow produces fairly clean water.

[yorkman]

First and most important question, does it work?

Does it fill up too quickly or does it really process the waste in a timely manner? is the set up expensive?

and finally, does it really work? (I know, I know, I asked this one already, but I just find it kind of hard to believe!)

Yes they do work, although I have 2 running from separate bathrooms in case of problems. Touch wood none yet.

The water that comes out is not "clean", but it is biologically broken down to be more or less harmless. Just let it drain away in a soakaway, or better still, as we do, it "feeds" some banana trees (Getting your own back ). I have no problems at all with smell. If it smells after the first month or so something is wrong.

There will be a vent pipe that comes out of the top; just take that as high as you can to get rid of any "ammonia" smells. That is an interim product of the biological breakdown process.

It is supposed to be full, even before you start using it should be filled with water. Add the bacteria starter stuff via the toilet and don't overload it from the start. You need to give it time for the bacteria population to grow that break down the solids.

If you run your kitchen sink into it, then no solids down the sink and install a grease trap.

Hope that helps

[sbk]

thanks for the response yorkman! How does the water come out? Is it a drain field like a septic system or something else? Just curious as to how the whole thing works

Also, what kind of um, how shall we say, volume does this thing handle? We would be using it for our restaurant/house (we live over the shop as it were) so it would be us, 3 staff and customers. Mostly little ones from the customers as my husband puts it -- like when we have a crowd in drinking beer if you get my meaning here But there would be considerable down time for the system as we aren't busy year round.

[lopburi3]

They make different size units and believe they have literature that lists the number of people for the various sizes (or at least they did about 10 years ago). But you may be like we are here in Bangkok, where the water water level becomes higher than the tank at times (heavy rain or flood season) and this seems to upset the digestion process and the output water can be rather nasty for a few days. Here in Bangkok we connect to the normal gray water drain system.

[sbk]

Yes, indeed, our water table is quite high. We are right on the beach and right next to a small creek that has quite a bit of water in it in the rainy season.

Is that the water level is higher than the bottom of the tank or the top of the tank?

So, with no other sewage options to drain the water, we'd get smell?

[lopburi3]

It is sealed up to the exit/entry level near the top so if the water level remains below that it should work normally. Here in Bangkok water often gets above ground level during heavy rain for short periods. Most of the time it seems to work well but that just makes the small all that more annoying when it happens. But if you can run the drain far enough away from occupied area it should not matter. Or if a drain field is used (that doesn't get washed out).

[yorkman]

thanks for the response yorkman! How does the water come out? Is it a drain field like a septic system or something else? Just curious as to how the whole thing works

Also, what kind of um, how shall we say, volume does this thing handle? We would be using it for our restaurant/house (we live over the shop as it were) so it would be us, 3 staff and customers. Mostly little ones from the customers as my husband puts it -- like when we have a crowd in drinking beer if you get my meaning here But there would be considerable down time for the system as we aren't busy year round.

Oooh you have just complicated it; these things commonly sold are for households, it sounds like you need something larger. You may have to get something built, but still, the principles apply.

The long version (how the whole thing works)

First thing, nip along to you nearest HomePro, HomeMart, Global House or whatever. Some of them have one "sectioned" so you can see what is inside, or have a peer in the top of one (it won't have the "media" installed, I'll get to that)

It's a biological process, on the same basis as sewage treatment plants where there is mains sewerage.

Bacteria inside the tank (and this is where media comes into it, it provides a large surface area they can live on, you will see various forms of this) break the poo down, first to Ammonium Nitrite (that smells, hence the vent pipe) and then to Ammonium Nitrate (fertiliser ). You can "seed" it with bacteria to start it off (not those dry chemicals they sell) or just start using it, the "full capacity" process will just take longer.

This flows out of the tank with the water. Where it goes is your choice, within reason as long as it has the capacity, and you keep it the recommended 20 metres or more away from any well you may have. A drain field is ideal, that is in effect what I have in and around the trees.

The water table would need to be higher than than your soakaway system, whatever you choose, before you would get problems, providing your drain pipes are properly connected.

[sbk]

Yes, the drain field could be quite a bit higher than the water table. And if the water level gets higher than the top of the tank we would get flooded anyway, so no, it usually doesn't get that high. Maybe once every 3-4 years. Thank goodness!

Our usage isn't super high, yorkman, we are just a small place, but it could be pretty intensive for perhaps one week out of the month? But again, generally number 1 from the customers

[chownah]

I'm wondering what is meant by the water is "clean". If there is a concern that it not be near wells then I guess this means that the water is not clean. My guess is that when the water leaves the tank it still needs to do to a drain field. A drain field works by spreading the water over a large area so the amount infiltrating in any one area is small. The idea is that there is a thick enough layer of permeable soil so that the water will get absorbed onto the surface of the soil particles and slowly sink into the ground. Bacterial action and adsorption hold the pollutants in the soil and degrade them and the water slowly sinks into the soil low enough that it does not resurface. A high water table limits the thickness of the layer of soil that can absorb the waste water. If a high water table exists or if the soil is not permeable then an option is to build a sand mound......which is just that....a mound of sand raised above the existing waterlogged or impermeable soil. This mound provides the thickness of permeable soil needed for proper treatment during infiltration. You can learn more by googling "sand mound infiltrate" or "sand mound water treatment" or similar.

Chownah

[Beardog]

That certainly sounds like a great option to use a greener type setup. I hope your region does not get pounded like it did this year,from what I am finding out when the water table is to high you can have nasty things happen to any type of septic system.

Wow you got a lot of years out of the cement ring system!

I love your posts, You really know your stuff! Someday i will have to venture down to your way. Krabi was the furthest i made it to Pre Tsnunami! It really is awesome down your way. I hope you get some more posters as i would be interesting on getting a cleaner system myself!

Cheers to you

Beardog

[yorkman]

I'm wondering what is meant by the water is "clean". If there is a concern that it not be near wells then I guess this means that the water is not clean. My guess is that when the water leaves the tank it still needs to do to a drain field. A drain field works by spreading the water over a large area so the amount infiltrating in any one area is small. The idea is that there is a thick enough layer of permeable soil so that the water will get absorbed onto the surface of the soil particles and slowly sink into the ground. Bacterial action and adsorption hold the pollutants in the soil and degrade them and the water slowly sinks into the soil low enough that it does not resurface.

Thats it exactly Chownah. The water contains a high dissolved level of Ammonium Nitrate and other by product, and a high bacterial level, albeit these are mainly harmless. If you were to smell it, it smells slightly "soily", that is all

Good food for fruit trees.

[Crossy]

There was a thread a while back from someone running a system like this.

Outflow into a small 'creek' loaded with water plants to use up some of the nitrate then into a fish pond, fish eat the plants, people eat the fish, the ultimate recycling system

[sbk]

Do you remember how far back and if it was in the housing forum or the farming forum?

And gosh Beardog, were you talking to me??? I can't believe it! Something nice! Wow!

[Crossy]

Do you remember how far back and if it was in the housing forum or the farming forum?

Lingling has the system, using water lettuce http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1137298 looks interesting.

[sbk]

I knew you'd remember Crossy, thanks for the link. We don't have a place for a pond, unfortunately, but I like the idea.

[yorkman]

We don't have a place for a pond, unfortunately........

Have you got room for the leachfield then?

Here is a complicated version http://www.inspect-ny.com/septic/lockwood.htm#lleac

More simply, a friend near to me, who used to work in sanitation in the US (and certainly seems to know his 2's ) said "get about 100 yards in, it can always be extended" Near 2 years on and its fine, but this is Issan, dry ground and all that.

[sbk]

Excellent link, yorkman, thanks for that

Our soil is very sandy and percolates quite quickly. Plus we only have the one toilet and it is, astoundingly, an old fashioned flush with a bucket of water type toilet so it doesn't use a lot of water to flush. But it is a sit down! We put it in when we built the house back when we first got married and I told DH that a requirement of marriage was a sit down toilet. A rare thing to find in those days

[chownah]

Sbk,

Be advised that a too fast percolation rate is not suitable for use as a drain field...I'm not trying to indicate that whatever you do won't work but some people just assume that a higer rate of infiltration is better when in fact that is not the case.

Chownah

[Naam]

Sbk,

Be advised that a too fast percolation rate is not suitable for use as a drain field...I'm not trying to indicate that whatever you do won't work but some people just assume that a higer rate of infiltration is better when in fact that is not the case.

Chownah

that's correct. in fact the drainfield or drainage area should be covered with short rooting vegetation. plant roots (especially grass) help mother nature a lot with the clean-up procedure.

[Goinghomesoon]

We may have the opposite problem to SBK, call it *underuse syndrome* as we only plan to use our bungalow for weekends away. But given the reasonable price of these tanks and the feelgood factor (we could run the product onto our fruit trees or bananas) this one is going in my folder of things to add to the plans. Stupid girly question though... does the bacteria eventually run out of stuff to eat if we're only *depositing* every few weeks???

[sbk]

Its sandy to a point and then more clayish starting about 2m down. And would the vegetation help the percolating rate be optimal?

[yorkman]

... does the bacteria eventually run out of stuff to eat if we're only *depositing* every few weeks???

Well yes, given the way it works. It takes a long time though. You would have the opposite problem really of suddenly overloading the system as a large enough bacterial colony has not been given chance to establish itself. You could really be going through the startup cycle again and again.

Still, you are still better off than the extremely simple concrete rings and no top outflow that just are little more than a glorified soakaway! We had a rental house like that. It was the blue truck every few months and I dread to think about the aquafer

[yorkman]

And would the vegetation help the percolating rate be optimal?

Ooops sorry missed that sbk, Naam posted without explanation

The vegetation, apart from the fact you can grow super vegetables (this is a fertiliser, free) , or in my case fruit trees, take up most of the water so it does not soak down into the Aquafer and cause pollution. If you have a well then you really don't want that

The bacteria are natural, they exist and live on any grain of earth. They will consume all the remaining nastys, if you give them a chance. They are mainly aerobic, i.e. in the upper topsoil

There is no way without scientific test to determine the optimal, its just a bit suck and see.

[Naam]

The vegetation, apart from the fact you can grow super vegetables (this is a fertiliser, free) , or in my case fruit trees, take up most of the water so it does not soak down into the Aquafer and cause pollution. If you have a well then you really don't want that

one caveat though Yorkman. if you have a drainfield with slotted PVC-pipes you wouldn't want deep rooting plants and trees which will clog the slots. in Florida the building codes allow lawn only on top of the drain field. of course, nobody really cares. to be on the safe side i installed a sump pump in the third (yes THIRD!) chamber which pumped the liquid into the drain field.

the whole septic tank issue was horrifying for a bloody German like me when i built my first home in the U.S. although we lived in "septic houses" before. but that was in the african bush and the Saudi desert. an interesting incidence. after living in our first house for a year, the bell rang and a chap from the building department asked to dig into my drain field. it turned out that permission was given to use crushed concrete from old foundations instead of gravel and they wanted to test the results. i was next to him when he dug with a small spade a hole and then used his BARE HANDS to take some samples into a plastic bag for lab purposes. when i asked him "you don't mind digging around my sh*t?" he smiled held a handfull of soil and concrete pieces under my nose and said "smell anything?". there was indeed NO smell!

[Naam]

the disadvantage of having a drainfield in front of your home is that the burglars know when you are out of the country or in. the deep green colour of the lawn or less green over the drainfield compared to the surrounding lawn supplies that information.

[toptuan]

In reference to the earlier comments about odor: Someone has recommended to me that I use a liquid product called "EM," which can be purchased at most yard or farm-supply outlets. Apparently it's a natural non-toxic bacteria which helps break down sewage and drain-water which helps to combat odor. It comes in about 1/2 liter plastic containers, in liquid form. About 50B per container, and 1 or 2 cap fulls for a septic tank or drain pipe is supposed to do the trick. I treated my two septics and a drain area a couple days ago, and assume I'll stop smelling the aroma in a month or so--just a guess.

Anyone had any experience with it? If so, how long does it take to be effective?

[chownah]

In reference to the earlier comments about odor: Someone has recommended to me that I use a liquid product called "EM," which can be purchased at most yard or farm-supply outlets. Apparently it's a natural non-toxic bacteria which helps break down sewage and drain-water which helps to combat odor. It comes in about 1/2 liter plastic containers, in liquid form. About 50B per container, and 1 or 2 cap fulls for a septic tank or drain pipe is supposed to do the trick. I treated my two septics and a drain area a couple days ago, and assume I'll stop smelling the aroma in a month or so--just a guess.

Anyone had any experience with it? If so, how long does it take to be effective?

I assume that the odor will be gone in a month or so because it is the dry season and the waste water will no longer linger at/near the surface. You will then assume it is the bacteria you are adding that has caused the change and you will then be adding to the anecdotal evidence supporting the effectiveness of "EM"....

But, to be fair....I may be wrong. Perhaps "EM" will eliminate odors as you describe. I have no direct experience with it but what I have learned about decay processes and bacteria and how that all works it seems highly unlikly that adding a cup or two of dry bacteria in to a large vat of poop will eliminat the odor. I'd be interested in learning just bacteria are in the "EM"....I'll bet they are already in the vat of poop and if not it is because conditions are not right there for them to live in which case when you add your dose they will quickly die......but then may be dead bacteria of that sort is a very very powerful deodorizer?....I don't know.

Why not try an experiment. Take two white 15 litre plastic paint buckets with lids and fill them almost full with poop. In one put a dose of EM (about 1/100th of the amount you would put in your poop tank since you're treating 15 litres instead of 1,500 litres) and seal them both up. Come back a month later and smell the difference. Let me know.

Chownah

[Crossy]

Why not try an experiment. Take two white 15 litre plastic paint buckets with lids and fill them almost full with poop. In one put a dose of EM (about 1/100th of the amount you would put in your poop tank since you're treating 15 litres instead of 1,500 litres) and seal them both up. Come back a month later and smell the difference. Let me know.

Whilst I'm not about to try the poop-sniffing experiment (I'm not QUITE that kinky), I do know that a septic system that's working properly shouldn't put out bad smells except maybe from the vent which should exit well above any opening windows (or be well away from the house). There's a UK company doing carbon filters to put on the vent and stop all smells dead (no idea if they're available in LoS).

The worst should be a possible 'earthy' aroma from the area of the outlet/leech field, nothing unpleasant.

Actually, aren't the 'nice' bacteria (that are supposedly in the EM) aerobic and thus require an air supply that would be absent in your paint buckets?