How Is He Doing This ?

[Goshawk]

I know of a farang, with a farang wife and farang children been living in a village just outside Chiangmai for couple or 3 years. He apparantly owns his land and house, and indeed he had it specifically built, in this said village (this is how he's perceived by the villagers) and has no percievable personal relationship with a Thai. Although i do believe that both he (i understand he speaks reasonable Thai) and his farang wife are both school teachers in a local school.

Well a farang cannot own land in Thailand, correct ? so how is this possible ?

I'm deducing that maybe the school bought the land and paid for the house to be built, and he just rents it.. but this is certainly not the vibe he's giving off to the locals - they all think it's his

He's been broken into a few times by the local yaa baa heads, and had confrontations with them involving the mild threat of knives.

So how does a 100% farang family own a house and land in Thailand ? it's not in his name surely !?!

(are you a member here?)

[Jingthing]

Sounds like a lease deal. Giving off a vibe doesn't sound very legally definitive, eh? If you have a long enough lease you might as well own the land.

[Goshawk]

lease. of course, you're right.. loan to a thai etc.. etc..

couldn't see the wood for the trees.

feel sorry for this guy a little though, he aint liked much in this village. keeps his gate firmly closed at all times and apart from me (constantly in & out of Thailand) he's the only farang in our village

[uptheos]

A lot of foreigners living here like to brag about what they are or are not doing and what you can or cannot do....so many experts (in their own mind)!

Dig beneath the surface and you will often find enough manure.

Best take these stories with a pinch of salt.

[Ulysses G.]

Perhaps he owns the property through a company?

[Crow Boy]

There are several ways he may be doing this:

1) gold card resident

2) permanent resident

3) subsidiary lease hold where he buys the property through a Thai company and then leases it back to himself

The statement that farung "cannot own land" is missleading. You can but within restrictions and it has to be done carefully to avoid problems when the time comes to sell the property

CB

[Naam]

There are several ways he may be doing this:

1) gold card resident

CB

please explain CrowBoy.

[uptheos]

There are several ways he may be doing this:

1) gold card resident

CB

please explain CrowBoy.

CB - Do you mean the 1,000,000 Baht VIP Card?

[BlackArtemis]

If you pay a sum of money (a few million Baht?) you can own up to one rai of land in Thailand as a Foreigner

[sweetchariot]

If he bought it a few years ago he could have done it (semi) legitimately with a limited shell company (or nominee company), where he owns only 49% of the shares, but 100% of the voting rights. He would have got 7 Thai directors off the street to sign up as directors, and sign their resignation papers at the same time. They would be issued with 'b' shares, which do not carry any voting rights, so he always has control of the Ltd Company.

Up until about a year ago this was common practice, and I know many farangs who have bought their houses this way, although if the FBA goes through in its current form they will have to restructure these companies over the next couple of years, as to be classed as a Thai owned company then 51% of the voting rights, as well as the shares, need to be Thai owned. That's when lots of people will be looking at lease arrangements.

[siam-i-am]

Perhaps he owns the property through a company?

This and other ways to "own" a property, does it matter? I sense some green eye in the op's message

[Crow Boy]

There are several ways he may be doing this:

1) gold card resident

CB

please explain CrowBoy.

CB - Do you mean the 1,000,000 Baht VIP Card?

There are/where two schemes which depending on what the person "invested" ie deposited in government funds gave them special rights within Thai Law to own land and house in their own name. The VIP card was more for people who came to invest and set up a company but the gold card was for people to buy a high end property and get an automatic 5 year multiple entry visa but not have to operate a company here.

In theory the visa ceased but anyone with the necesssary funds can approach the dept of Immigration and get the necessary information. They will need to nominate a lawyer and accountant to set it up but if you have the money and can afford to let it sit in a government deposit fund is a relatively easy way of getting the residency. At the end of five years you can then follow up with a permanent residency visa and or apply for citizenship. The schemes were set up to attract "quality" ie wealthy residents to Thailand instead of those who came here to live on the cheap. I know of one enclave of them on Samuii and a couple in Bangkok where the purchase process of the house includes a "suitability test" and guarantees the visa on purchase of the property. One on Samuii had a nasty little shock when one of the people who passed the test turned out to be on the run from the UK police. House was bought and visa issued but he suddenly disapeared leaving the house empty.

CB

[blizzard]

locals not so keen on farangs who dont give freely, is that how it goes.

[klikster]

There are several ways he may be doing this:

1) gold card resident

2) permanent resident

3) subsidiary lease hold where he buys the property through a Thai company and then leases it back to himself

The statement that farung "cannot own land" is missleading. You can but within restrictions and it has to be done carefully to avoid problems when the time comes to sell the property

CB

I was told very specifically at Thai immigration that a residency permit (no such thing as "permanent" for farang) does not entitle the holder to buy land. Were they mistaken?

If the residency progresses to citizenship, that is obviously a different matter.

[Crow Boy]

There are several ways he may be doing this:

1) gold card resident

2) permanent resident

3) subsidiary lease hold where he buys the property through a Thai company and then leases it back to himself

The statement that farung "cannot own land" is missleading. You can but within restrictions and it has to be done carefully to avoid problems when the time comes to sell the property

CB

I was told very specifically at Thai immigration that a residency permit (no such thing as "permanent" for farang) does not entitle the holder to buy land. Were they mistaken?

It is specifically one of the benefits of this type of visa and was used to buy the house and land where I am moving in approximately two weeks. The house and land are wholly owed by a foreigner who did not buy it as a company nor in partnership with a Thai. In fact it was used to buy out the Thai wife who had originally held title over the land. It was recommended by the Thai lawyer as a way of securing ownership and as a way of avoiding the increasingly under the scope use of "silent Thai partners" who individually "own" the required 51% of the business and 100% of the land. It now means he does not have to run a shadow company nor file tax returns on that same company which is also coming under more scrutiny.

I am not the owner nor am I a Thai lawyer but I do know that this was how it was set up. I would suggest that the immigration officers may know the immigration rules but they are not Thai lawyers nor are they experts in land and home ownership. Anyone interested in doing this needs to make enquiries with and EXPERIENCED and knowledgeable Law firm that understands the situation. I know it took nearly two years to do and was not cheap. There are a lot of forms to submit and supporting documents required. Each one must be done correctly, also the owner had to present himself to a judge in court and explain what he wanted to do and why. There was no bribery or corruption involved so don't even suggest it.

If the residency progresses to citizenship, that is obviously a different matter.

It is part of the process of gaining a permanent residency - yes it does exist - and then citizenship.

CB

[klikster]

There are several ways he may be doing this:

1) gold card resident

2) permanent resident

3) subsidiary lease hold where he buys the property through a Thai company and then leases it back to himself

The statement that farung "cannot own land" is missleading. You can but within restrictions and it has to be done carefully to avoid problems when the time comes to sell the property

CB

I was told very specifically at Thai immigration that a residency permit (no such thing as "permanent" for farang) does not entitle the holder to buy land. Were they mistaken?

It is specifically one of the benefits of this type of visa and was used to buy the house and land where I am moving in approximately two weeks.

Trying to figure out what you are claiming is a bit difficult, since you are using "it" and "this" and "visa".

Are you claiming that someone holding a residency permit (which is not a visa) can buy and have the land regisereed in their name?

If so, I think you are 100% wrong.

I don't know why you wrote all the rest, since I didn't comment on it.

[Crow Boy]

Trying to figure out what you are claiming is a bit difficult, since you are using "it" and "this" and "visa".

Are you claiming that someone holding a residency permit (which is not a visa) can buy and have the land regisereed in their name?

If so, I think you are 100% wrong.

I don't know why you wrote all the rest, since I didn't comment on it.

Fair enough, whatever you think. Obviously you as a Thai trained and credited lawyer know better than the guy who has actually done it. I am pleased for you and pass on your comments to the guy who has a five year residency permit and owns the house and land outright for him to contact you and ask your professional opinion.

CB

[klikster]

Trying to figure out what you are claiming is a bit difficult, since you are using "it" and "this" and "visa".

Are you claiming that someone holding a residency permit (which is not a visa) can buy and have the land regisereed in their name?

If so, I think you are 100% wrong.

I don't know why you wrote all the rest, since I didn't comment on it.

Fair enough, whatever you think. Obviously you as a Thai trained and credited lawyer know better than the guy who has actually done it. I am pleased for you and pass on your comments to the guy who has a five year residency permit and owns the house and land outright for him to contact you and ask your professional opinion.

CB

Well, that retort was just as muddied as your previous post. You are the one who listed "permanent residency" as a way to own land .. now you seem to be ducking it.

I am still not sure what you mean about the "five year residency permit".

What is obvious here is :

* I have asked you to clarify a statement i.e. "it" "this" and "visa"

* You have not clarifed your statements

* You seem to be getting defensive.

As to "the guy who has done it" .. you are going on hearsay .. maybe he did it, maybe not.

[klikster]

Perhaps he owns the property through a company?

This and other ways to "own" a property, does it matter? I sense some green eye in the op's message

Interesting that you set out "own" in quotes. If you know a way to have the land department record land in your name alone (as a farang), please let us know.

[RAZZELL]

Trying to figure out what you are claiming is a bit difficult, since you are using "it" and "this" and "visa".

Are you claiming that someone holding a residency permit (which is not a visa) can buy and have the land regisereed in their name?

If so, I think you are 100% wrong.

I don't know why you wrote all the rest, since I didn't comment on it.

Fair enough, whatever you think. Obviously you as a Thai trained and credited lawyer know better than the guy who has actually done it. I am pleased for you and pass on your comments to the guy who has a five year residency permit and owns the house and land outright for him to contact you and ask your professional opinion.

CB

After gaining PR you can then APPLY for Thai citizenship which thus enables you a whole host of "rights" as a Thai citizen, including the legal ability to own land in your own "farang" name as you are now considered "Thai".

RAZZ

[Crow Boy]

Trying to figure out what you are claiming is a bit difficult, since you are using "it" and "this" and "visa".

Are you claiming that someone holding a residency permit (which is not a visa) can buy and have the land regisereed in their name?

If so, I think you are 100% wrong.

I don't know why you wrote all the rest, since I didn't comment on it.

Fair enough, whatever you think. Obviously you as a Thai trained and credited lawyer know better than the guy who has actually done it. I am pleased for you and pass on your comments to the guy who has a five year residency permit and owns the house and land outright for him to contact you and ask your professional opinion.

CB

Well, that retort was just as muddied as your previous post. You are the one who listed "permanent residency" as a way to own land .. now you seem to be ducking it.

I am still not sure what you mean about the "five year residency permit".

What is obvious here is :

* I have asked you to clarify a statement i.e. "it" "this" and "visa"

* You have not clarifed your statements

* You seem to be getting defensive.

As to "the guy who has done it" .. you are going on hearsay .. maybe he did it, maybe not.

Whatever you think - I have explained the situation to the extent of my knowledge. I am not the owner nor am I a Thai lawyer so I am not able to make comment on the specific laws and regulations, neither are you so the point is moot. What is the salient fact, is that he has his house and land solely in his name. He has a visa that has "permanent resident" printed on it and the date was five years from the day of issue. I know this to be true because I have seen it and have been indirectly involved in the process over the last year and a half while he got his divorce settled. Part of the settlement was this house and the prime reason why he went down this route.

CB

[klikster]

To the OP.

Over the past 15 years I have done a LOT of research on how an individual foreigner might own land. I have talked to Thai attorneys, Thai Bankers, Provincial Governers, Permanent Secretarys and (via 3rd party) to the Board of Investment.

What it all comes down to is that a foreigner cannot get land recorded in their name at the land department. The "workarounds" are leases and private arrangements .. but those are NOT ownership.

Right now a number of folks are in a very vulnerable position with ordinary Thai companies that use nominees. It has always been illegal to own land in that fashion. It's just that officialdom has not enforced the laws. Now there is some notion that enforcement might become more rigorous. The key phrase is "One Thai law may not contradict another Thai law."

An Amity Treaty (for Americans) company can be 100% foreign owned .. but it cannot own land.

The nearest to that "Holy Grail" that I have been able to discover is through either a BOI approved 100% foreign ownership company .. (there are/were a few categories) .. or a REIT. The REIT is a juristic entity that can have 100% foreign investment .. but my understanding is the that the administration is a bit costly and the minimum investment is/was Bt 250 million.

The BOI company cited above can purchase and own land for their operations, but if the company is ever dissolved, the land must be sold to a *Thai. * not sure if "Thai" can be another BOI company or not

I would suspect that the situation with a REIT would be similar.

Caveat: Everything stated in this message may be in error. Best to take anything stated in this or any other forum with a grain of salt .. and consult an attorney recommended by an embassy .. then get a second opinion.

[Maejo Man]

To the OP.

Over the past 15 years I have done a LOT of research on how an individual foreigner might own land. I have talked to Thai attorneys, Thai Bankers, Provincial Governers, Permanent Secretarys and (via 3rd party) to the Board of Investment.

The BOI company cited above can purchase and own land for their operations, but if the company is ever dissolved, the land must be sold to a *Thai. * not sure if "Thai" can be another BOI company or not

Basically the "aliens and lands act" prohibits the ownership of land by an alian period. BOI is one of the exceptions, whereby an alien operates a company under the auspicies of the BOI and has his name on the land title, as a friend of mine did years ago. If he winds that company up, he has to dispose of the land within one year.

The other being a massive investment in government bonds in perpetuity. This will enable that person to "apply" (no guarantees given) to purchase one rai of land for personal occupancy in specific locations in the kingdom. Bangkok is one, Phuket is another. There are only three or four locations and Chiangmai is not one of them. If the bonds/securities are "cashed in" the property has to be disposed of as per the BOI conditions.

There are countless thousand houses "owned" by aliens through a Thai company whereby the alien holds 49% of the company, and secured proxies for the remainder. It only needs a tightening up of company regulations and enforcement, to see a lot of foreigners weeping.

As klikster, I have also delved onto the ownership of a property over a long period, and have come to the conclusion that I will keep renting untill there is a change in the law, but I have a better chance of seeing pigs flying past my window than the law on ownership changing any time soon.

[Goshawk]

To the OP.

Over the past 15 years I have done a LOT of research on how an individual foreigner might own land. I have talked to Thai attorneys, Thai Bankers, Provincial Governers, Permanent Secretarys and (via 3rd party) to the Board of Investment.

The BOI company cited above can purchase and own land for their operations, but if the company is ever dissolved, the land must be sold to a *Thai. * not sure if "Thai" can be another BOI company or not

Basically the "aliens and lands act" prohibits the ownership of land by an alian period. BOI is one of the exceptions, whereby an alien operates a company under the auspicies of the BOI and has his name on the land title, as a friend of mine did years ago. If he winds that company up, he has to dispose of the land within one year.

The other being a massive investment in government bonds in perpetuity. This will enable that person to "apply" (no guarantees given) to purchase one rai of land for personal occupancy in specific locations in the kingdom. Bangkok is one, Phuket is another. There are only three or four locations and Chiangmai is not one of them. If the bonds/securities are "cashed in" the property has to be disposed of as per the BOI conditions.

There are countless thousand houses "owned" by aliens through a Thai company whereby the alien holds 49% of the company, and secured proxies for the remainder. It only needs a tightening up of company regulations and enforcement, to see a lot of foreigners weeping.

As klikster, I have also delved onto the ownership of a property over a long period, and have come to the conclusion that I will keep renting untill there is a change in the law, but I have a better chance of seeing pigs flying past my window than the law on ownership changing any time soon.

well thanks for conformation of what i already knew, or strongly suspected to be the case - that a farang by himself cannot own land or a piece of Thailand in his own name

the legal loopholes, well they are just that...

now excuse me while i go and piss on this particular guy's bonfire & tell my villagers the truth about this 'farang who owns a chunk of our village' (actually i told 'em months ago...)

mod's, you can close this now.. i've read enough

[Naam]

[There are countless thousand houses "owned" by aliens through a Thai company whereby the alien holds 49% of the company, and secured proxies for the remainder. It only needs a tightening up of company regulations and enforcement, to see a lot of foreigners weeping.

incorrect conclusion! foreigners can own buildings but not land. any foreigner who bought land via a company should line up a thai national to whom he transfers the land and either obtains a 30year lease or a usufruct IF any law is enforced. foreigners can own legally the dwelling on the land. personally i don't see any problems being 64 years old. the odds are stacked against my living till 94

p.s. rational conclusion: there are "zillions" of Thais who would jump with joy having the opportunity to own land and 30 years later a building without paying a single Satang. where's the problem?

[Crow Boy]

mod's, you can close this now.. i've read enough

At OP's request this thread is closed

CB