Exit Poll Results Show PPP Wins

[marshbags]

Keep those caricatures coming Tony! There's plenty out here who think that a picture is worth a thousand words sometimes and appreciate your sense of humour.

seconded, thirded, fourthded fithded ect ect ect

The not even thinly-veiled threats to officials who did not support PPP is bloody typical of the man. I guess we can expect to see the Village Scouts and Red Gaur on the streets again outing non-PPP citizens if he stays in the job for more than a month or two. I would forecast some might flee to the jungles once he gets sworn in, if only there were some jungles to flee to. Maybe Malaysia, Laos and Cambodia can expect some long-stay Thai visitors soon?

My wife didn,t go back to vote on principle, along with many many more who do not agree with candidates who have been allowed to re stand after blatantly cheating.

Add to this all those who came home to vote locally rather than do it somewhere else ect. ect. ( Thai culture and family come into play here. )

Plus the fact it is already orchestrated / determined by even more under the counter payments.

Anyone who says otherwise is in total denial of the truth.

These victories are meaningless as an indication of genuinely gaining popularity ect .ect.

What bullshi* this is.

marshbags

Marshbags,

This is Thai politics....your final comment is like pointing to the steaming pile under a bull's tail and exclaiming, "What bullshi* this is."!!!!!

chownah

Agreed and yes it is as obvious as you describe it. ( By, it smells as foul as your wonderful comment indicates )

Not a derogatory observation by the way

Change is therefore demanded as it............................

Doesn,t make it o.k though and is totally unacceptable if Thailand wants to progress into the 21st century and be recognised internationally along with giving assurances in the positive to the outside investors who want to come here and help the country achieve this important transition and be respected.

Like it or not this is the only way the country can survive and it,s no longer a case of This is Thailand and has nothing to do with the outside world that is usually quoted.

Economically it has everything to do with with potential investors ect in the outside world, especially in the future, or the country will not progress in the way that Thai citizens deserve and expect it to.

marshbags

Edited January 21, 2008 by marshbags

[John K]

So on that note, and seeing that a new topic "Thailand's parliament convenes first session since 2006 coup" has been started, I think it may indeed be time to draw the curtains on this epic exchange..

Hmmm your posts have a distinctly recognizable tone to a few recent short lived members. For someone so new and to have such a bold opinion, it would be nice if you could back up your comments with some hard facts before you dump on another member. Their opinions are just as valid as yours but there is substance to them. Many of the posters in this forum have substantial educational attainments so keep that in mind before you decide to dump on them.

[blaze]

It has to be a positive thing for Thai democracy when people decide to tell a party what they think of it for doing a swift 180 on one of its polices within days of being voted in.

Yes, it is a very good thing, but the bottom line is the PPP has been able to get away with its vote buying and persuade other parties to join them. These guys now have a mandate to run the country. How is the coalition going to manage the country? What will they do about the country's economic problems? Are the PPP smart enough to realize that they weren't entrusted with the responsibility of running the country just to take revenge on their enemies? Are they up to it or was this just a very big mistake?

I think Thaksin and wife are clever enough to realise what you say, but they have to make things against them go away and that has and will continue to put them in the debt of some characters who will probably want more of their ounce of flesh than Thaksin would himself. Controlling the payback even if there is a will, will not be easy at all. There are also politcal debts to be repaid outside of the vengeance stuff. It will be hard to balance repaying the faithful and removing their foes while not upsetting the whole apple cart, and could so easily leave the country effectively rudderless for a while longer yet.

Some might argue that the people of THailand, regardless of their political stamp, and because they are all governed by the constitution, are entitled to not have democracy snatched away from them again and to that end, there must be deterrence. (If we agree with the punishment, we call it deterrence, if we disagree with it, we call it revenge- human nature, I guess).

There is, I think, zero indication, that the coup makers will be punished for launching the coup- (unfortunately) but for meddling in the democratic process- in elections that they called and supervised, they should be punished if found guilty.

In the same way that Thaksin must be tried and punished if found guilty. Not simply as payback- but as deterrence. But I agree with Hammered, the line between payback and deterrence is thin and will require vigilence from the citizens- who will rely on the press- and in what will unfold, objective reporting is not something I think we are going to see a lot of.

So the whole coming drama will be cast as a morality play between moustached villains (Samak, Thaksin et al) and helpless damsels (the poor misunderstood under appreciated army).

[blaze]

It has to be a positive thing for Thai democracy when people decide to tell a party what they think of it for doing a swift 180 on one of its polices within days of being voted in.

Yes, it is a very good thing, but the bottom line is the PPP has been able to get away with its vote buying and persuade other parties to join them. These guys now have a mandate to run the country. How is the coalition going to manage the country? What will they do about the country's economic problems? Are the PPP smart enough to realize that they weren't entrusted with the responsibility of running the country just to take revenge on their enemies? Are they up to it or was this just a very big mistake?

I think Thaksin and wife are clever enough to realise what you say, but they have to make things against them go away and that has and will continue to put them in the debt of some characters who will probably want more of their ounce of flesh than Thaksin would himself. Controlling the payback even if there is a will, will not be easy at all. There are also politcal debts to be repaid outside of the vengeance stuff. It will be hard to balance repaying the faithful and removing their foes while not upsetting the whole apple cart, and could so easily leave the country effectively rudderless for a while longer yet.

The issue is twofold. How long before these guys concentrate on the economic issues at hand and even if they do, do they have the answers? If they remain sidetracked the answer is obvious and there are many that believe they won't have any answers anyway. When is Thailand going to get a government that focuses on the economy instead of personal and political issues? We await to see what the PPP has on offer.

I wonder if all Thai governments in the past have in fact concentrated on economic issues- and that due to the media's obsession with character and scandal- we just haven't known. Rather than a serious analysis of pressing economic concerns, we get the latest scuttlebutt from "A Source".

[cclub75]

It comes down to two things now. Red cards that can dissolve or a coup that will once again push reset.

For the people that were/are anti junta, I suspect you are on the verge of getting a taste of what life would have been like if there was no coup. I only hope you are here to enjoy it.

Reset ? John, you can push the reset button dozen of times, the outcome will be the same : people want Thaksin/TRT/PPP whatever.

You don't like it ? Fair enough. Me neither, but it's democracy.

As for your last comment, it's very short sighted. I'm fed up of this false binary choice.

Reminds me "Me or the Chaos", "if you're not with us, you're against us" etc.

Black and white syndrome, with nothing in between.

You can hate Thaksin AND hate the Junta. Both are equally despicable (even if the first is more "legitimate").

[John K]

It comes down to two things now. Red cards that can dissolve or a coup that will once again push reset.

For the people that were/are anti junta, I suspect you are on the verge of getting a taste of what life would have been like if there was no coup. I only hope you are here to enjoy it.

Reset ? John, you can push the reset button dozen of times, the outcome will be the same : people want Thaksin/TRT/PPP whatever.

You don't like it ? Fair enough. Me neither, but it's democracy.

As for your last comment, it's very short sighted. I'm fed up of this false binary choice.

Reminds me "Me or the Chaos", "if you're not with us, you're against us" etc.

Black and white syndrome, with nothing in between.

You can hate Thaksin AND hate the Junta. Both are equally despicable (even if the first is more "legitimate").

I think you are missing the point. The people that jumped on the junta just because they were named junta are the ones that may be a bit surprised. Cross the border to Burma and it is like night and day. What I am saying is observe and learn to judge on personal merits and not their name. Also after reading some of the posts and news clippings, it is looking more and more the people that voted for the PPP were duped.

[John K]

Yongyuth resigns as People Power deputy leader

People Power Party party-list MP Yongyuth Tiyapairat has resigned as deputy leader and an executive of the party.

Samarn Lertwongrat, the registrar of the People Power, said Yongyuth resigned from the executive board Monday morning.

The Nation

Sounds like they know what is coming. I don't think jumping ship works anymore.

[sriracha john]

Perhaps it's time to put this mammoth thread to bed soon. Parliament will open on Monday.... and within a few days the thread title will have been officially completed, same as it's predecessor colossal thread on all the political parties formations died when the elections were held.

What will be the the thread title of the next gargantuan thread?

Funny how you're suddenly very eager to 'put a topic to bed'.

Not eager. Just a realist who's been through hundreds of political threads. I can appreciate your newness, so you understandably can't sense the beginning of the end of a thread, but finishing whatever the thread title mentions is a good indicator.... having over 2,000 posts is another signal.... and as Ricardo succinctly pointed out a few posts back, the overall discussions falls and the flaming begins. I'll lend you the depth of my experience and inform you that continuing a thread beyond its useful shelf-life is almost always counter-productive.

So on that note, and seeing that a new topic "Thailand's parliament convenes first session since 2006 coup" has been started, I think it may indeed be time to draw the curtains on this epic exchange..

After just 48 hours since your previous post, you've shown yourself to be a good student and I am only too pleased to have helped instruct you.

[blaze]

It comes down to two things now. Red cards that can dissolve or a coup that will once again push reset.

For the people that were/are anti junta, I suspect you are on the verge of getting a taste of what life would have been like if there was no coup. I only hope you are here to enjoy it.

Reset ? John, you can push the reset button dozen of times, the outcome will be the same : people want Thaksin/TRT/PPP whatever.

You don't like it ? Fair enough. Me neither, but it's democracy.

As for your last comment, it's very short sighted. I'm fed up of this false binary choice.

Reminds me "Me or the Chaos", "if you're not with us, you're against us" etc.

Black and white syndrome, with nothing in between.

You can hate Thaksin AND hate the Junta. Both are equally despicable (even if the first is more "legitimate").

I think you are missing the point. The people that jumped on the junta just because they were named junta are the ones that may be a bit surprised. Cross the border to Burma and it is like night and day. What I am saying is observe and learn to judge on personal merits and not their name. Also after reading some of the posts and news clippings, it is looking more and more the people that voted for the PPP were duped.

I do not know of one person who jumped on the junta because they were named a junta- people jumped on them as you put it, because without the consent of the majority of the Thai people, they overthrew the elected government and tore up the nation's constitution. They spent millions of tax payers money to propagate a charter more to their liking, they interfered with the election that they were honored to supervise (according to Anfrel), they put their 'experts' (like Saprong) in charge of state agencies, (thereby granting them extra voices on the senate) and with the help of their appointed government, they raided the national treasury- with NO mandate from the tax payers whose money that is, to do so. And for those who claim to be concerned with accountability and 'checks and balances', they have declared these actions to be outside the law.

Edited January 21, 2008 by blaze

[baanthale]

Public Warning:

Additional bickering and personal comments have been deleted from this thread.

Should members continue, I warn you now... suspension from the forum and/or disablement of posting rights will be your reward.

Hrrmmm

[John K]

It comes down to two things now. Red cards that can dissolve or a coup that will once again push reset.

For the people that were/are anti junta, I suspect you are on the verge of getting a taste of what life would have been like if there was no coup. I only hope you are here to enjoy it.

Reset ? John, you can push the reset button dozen of times, the outcome will be the same : people want Thaksin/TRT/PPP whatever.

You don't like it ? Fair enough. Me neither, but it's democracy.

As for your last comment, it's very short sighted. I'm fed up of this false binary choice.

Reminds me "Me or the Chaos", "if you're not with us, you're against us" etc.

Black and white syndrome, with nothing in between.

You can hate Thaksin AND hate the Junta. Both are equally despicable (even if the first is more "legitimate").

I think you are missing the point. The people that jumped on the junta just because they were named junta are the ones that may be a bit surprised. Cross the border to Burma and it is like night and day. What I am saying is observe and learn to judge on personal merits and not their name. Also after reading some of the posts and news clippings, it is looking more and more the people that voted for the PPP were duped.

I do not know of one person who jumped on the junta because they were named a junta- people jumped on them as you put it, because without the consent of the majority of the Thai people, they overthrew the elected government and tore up the nation's constitution. They spent millions of tax payers money to propagate a charter more to their liking, they interfered with the election that they were honored to supervise (according to Anfrel), they put their 'experts' (like Saprong) in charge of state agencies, (thereby granting them extra voices on the senate) and with the help of their appointed government, they raided the national treasury- with NO mandate from the tax payers whose money that is, to do so. And for those who claim to be concerned with accountability and 'checks and balances', they have declared these actions to be outside the law.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1770963

That would be a good place to start before saying the junta did this or that. The missing seven months rides again. There was only Thaksin and his hand picked, re-shuffled cronies hanging out in the government house. The rest went home in February.

[Plus]

I hope it's not too late to post in this thread?

Right from the start it was clear that PPP would be the biggest party. Some posters, including me, thought that they would fail at attracting coalition partners and so Democrats would be in the government, but I don't remember anyone ever denying PPP a shot. They took it, they got the coalition.

Now what?

Almost a hundred MPs, a third, in that coalition represent voters who didn't vote to PPP or Thaksin. As long as Thaksin's fate is understood to the be the main split line in the country, those MPs might suffer badly for their policy u-turns. If Thaksin attempts big comeback they won't be able to gloss over the issue. They will be annihilated at the polls, which are not far away. Banharn will be slaughtered.

If Thaksin's comeback is brought to some kind of referendum, he will likely to lose but by a close margin - after all his party only got 30+% of the popular votes.

PPP government can last only as long as they don't bring back 2006 demonstrations, no one wants to see those ever again. The problem for them that they don't have any other objectives - certainly not political reconciliation, certainly not putting the country back on track economically - they don't even have a plan! And if they had a plan - no one wants to do anything with it. Thanong refused Finance post? That's a bloody bad sign for their future, for the subject that matters most to their supporters - the money.

Nattakon Devakul recently wrote a piece about prospective Finance ministers - according to him Mingkwan was considered unqualified, and "alternative medicine doctor" was not even mentioned, too offensive to seriously consider for such an important position.

It looks like smart people turned their backs on PPP, and there's near zero chance they would succed at anything without real professionals running the government.

They don't have Thaksin, they don't have Somkid, the don't have even Thanong. And before Surapong takes over, somebody should serve him a bill for his pet ID card project - a flop of collossal proportions for a pigmey of his status.

Ok, that rant aside - does anybody believe that PPP will deliver on its sweet electoral promises - back to shopping spree circa 2004 with plenty of money for everyone?

I honestly don't think they would be able to pull it off.

On the second issue - does anybody belive that PPP will deliver Thaksin, the sweetest promise of all?

That's who many people really voted for, can they deliver that? I honestly don't think so.

It will be tough for them to go into next elections without record of success and without Thaksin. I also don't think Thaksin really wants to get back into politics, so will he continue bankrolling PPP? I'm afraid they might face identity crisis without him, not to mention financial crash.

[blaze]

It comes down to two things now. Red cards that can dissolve or a coup that will once again push reset.

For the people that were/are anti junta, I suspect you are on the verge of getting a taste of what life would have been like if there was no coup. I only hope you are here to enjoy it.

Reset ? John, you can push the reset button dozen of times, the outcome will be the same : people want Thaksin/TRT/PPP whatever.

You don't like it ? Fair enough. Me neither, but it's democracy.

As for your last comment, it's very short sighted. I'm fed up of this false binary choice.

Reminds me "Me or the Chaos", "if you're not with us, you're against us" etc.

Black and white syndrome, with nothing in between.

You can hate Thaksin AND hate the Junta. Both are equally despicable (even if the first is more "legitimate").

I think you are missing the point. The people that jumped on the junta just because they were named junta are the ones that may be a bit surprised. Cross the border to Burma and it is like night and day. What I am saying is observe and learn to judge on personal merits and not their name. Also after reading some of the posts and news clippings, it is looking more and more the people that voted for the PPP were duped.

I do not know of one person who jumped on the junta because they were named a junta- people jumped on them as you put it, because without the consent of the majority of the Thai people, they overthrew the elected government and tore up the nation's constitution. They spent millions of tax payers money to propagate a charter more to their liking, they interfered with the election that they were honored to supervise (according to Anfrel), they put their 'experts' (like Saprong) in charge of state agencies, (thereby granting them extra voices on the senate) and with the help of their appointed government, they raided the national treasury- with NO mandate from the tax payers whose money that is, to do so. And for those who claim to be concerned with accountability and 'checks and balances', they have declared these actions to be outside the law.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1770963

That would be a good place to start before saying the junta did this or that. The missing seven months rides again. There was only Thaksin and his hand picked, re-shuffled cronies hanging out in the government house. The rest went home in February.

Yes it would- if it was even remotely connected to the post to which you were responding.

Or are you suggesting that when in a parliamentary system, the house is dissolved in preparation for calling an election, a coup d'etat is legitimated?- if so, Stephen Harper better watch his back- since there could well be a dissolution of parliament in Canada in the next few weeks.

[chownah]

They don't have Thaksin, they don't have Somkid, the don't have even Thanong. And before Surapong takes over, somebody should serve him a bill for his pet ID card project - a flop of collossal proportions for a pigmey of his status.

Awhile ago weren't you claiming that Toxin set up the PPP as a proxy party?.....and now you are saying that PPP doesn't have Toxin.....seems contradictory....is it?

Chownah

[blaze]

I hope it's not too late to post in this thread?

Right from the start it was clear that PPP would be the biggest party. Some posters, including me, thought that they would fail at attracting coalition partners and so Democrats would be in the government, but I don't remember anyone ever denying PPP a shot. They took it, they got the coalition.

Now what?

Almost a hundred MPs, a third, in that coalition represent voters who didn't vote to PPP or Thaksin. As long as Thaksin's fate is understood to the be the main split line in the country, those MPs might suffer badly for their policy u-turns. If Thaksin attempts big comeback they won't be able to gloss over the issue. They will be annihilated at the polls, which are not far away. Banharn will be slaughtered.

If Thaksin's comeback is brought to some kind of referendum, he will likely to lose but by a close margin - after all his party only got 30+% of the popular votes.

PPP government can last only as long as they don't bring back 2006 demonstrations, no one wants to see those ever again. The problem for them that they don't have any other objectives - certainly not political reconciliation, certainly not putting the country back on track economically - they don't even have a plan! And if they had a plan - no one wants to do anything with it. Thanong refused Finance post? That's a bloody bad sign for their future, for the subject that matters most to their supporters - the money.

Nattakon Devakul recently wrote a piece about prospective Finance ministers - according to him Mingkwan was considered unqualified, and "alternative medicine doctor" was not even mentioned, too offensive to seriously consider for such an important position.

It looks like smart people turned their backs on PPP, and there's near zero chance they would succed at anything without real professionals running the government.

They don't have Thaksin, they don't have Somkid, the don't have even Thanong. And before Surapong takes over, somebody should serve him a bill for his pet ID card project - a flop of collossal proportions for a pigmey of his status.

Ok, that rant aside - does anybody believe that PPP will deliver on its sweet electoral promises - back to shopping spree circa 2004 with plenty of money for everyone?

I honestly don't think they would be able to pull it off.

On the second issue - does anybody belive that PPP will deliver Thaksin, the sweetest promise of all?

That's who many people really voted for, can they deliver that? I honestly don't think so.

It will be tough for them to go into next elections without record of success and without Thaksin. I also don't think Thaksin really wants to get back into politics, so will he continue bankrolling PPP? I'm afraid they might face identity crisis without him, not to mention financial crash.

I admit that I don't know enough about the financial team that PPP has put or can even consider putting together- but I tend to agree with you. I expect the PPP will be rent with political opportunism and has fought its last election. The brains and idealogues in the TRT? Look to the banned 111 I suppose. But its the Thai people that will be the losers- not the PPP mps or execs- not the Dems or CTs. (CT used to mean something different when I was sowing my oats- actually- maybe not so different after all).

[baanthale]

For me this have nothing to do with what ppp can deliver or not, it has to do with democracy. If life in Thailand goes back to 2004 it would just be a good thing, since the economy was good then. Thaksin was already one of the richest in the world before he became prim of Thailand, and don't forget that he got ride of all the coutry's depts. Also want to tell the once that don't know, vote buing has existed here LONG before Thaksin, and before Thaksin there was Democtrat governments. I lived here permenent since 1990, and there was vote buying in elections then to. The difference is that before Thaksin no one delivered anything! Also, is there really anyone that belives that, more or less, only ppp cheated in this election? Come on, the only once that could have cheated would be the democrats, as the junta in charge wanted them to win at any price!

[slimdog]

Yongyuth resigns as People Power deputy leader

People Power Party party-list MP Yongyuth Tiyapairat has resigned as deputy leader and an executive of the party.

Samarn Lertwongrat, the registrar of the People Power, said Yongyuth resigned from the executive board Monday morning.

The Nation

Sounds like they know what is coming. I don't think jumping ship works anymore.

Bit of a strange comment, so I am going to assume (perhaps wrongly) that you are unfamiliar with the Parliamentry procedure.

As you will be well aware, Yongyuth Tiyapairat is going to be nominated, (and will undoubtedly succeed) in becoming the President of the House of Representatives (House Speaker) tomorrow. In order to assume this position, the Constitution states:

Article 124 (5)

While in office, the President or Vice-Presidents of the House of Representatives cannot be an executive or hold any position in a political party.

[John K]

It comes down to two things now. Red cards that can dissolve or a coup that will once again push reset.

For the people that were/are anti junta, I suspect you are on the verge of getting a taste of what life would have been like if there was no coup. I only hope you are here to enjoy it.

Reset ? John, you can push the reset button dozen of times, the outcome will be the same : people want Thaksin/TRT/PPP whatever.

You don't like it ? Fair enough. Me neither, but it's democracy.

As for your last comment, it's very short sighted. I'm fed up of this false binary choice.

Reminds me "Me or the Chaos", "if you're not with us, you're against us" etc.

Black and white syndrome, with nothing in between.

You can hate Thaksin AND hate the Junta. Both are equally despicable (even if the first is more "legitimate").

I think you are missing the point. The people that jumped on the junta just because they were named junta are the ones that may be a bit surprised. Cross the border to Burma and it is like night and day. What I am saying is observe and learn to judge on personal merits and not their name. Also after reading some of the posts and news clippings, it is looking more and more the people that voted for the PPP were duped.

I do not know of one person who jumped on the junta because they were named a junta- people jumped on them as you put it, because without the consent of the majority of the Thai people, they overthrew the elected government and tore up the nation's constitution. They spent millions of tax payers money to propagate a charter more to their liking, they interfered with the election that they were honored to supervise (according to Anfrel), they put their 'experts' (like Saprong) in charge of state agencies, (thereby granting them extra voices on the senate) and with the help of their appointed government, they raided the national treasury- with NO mandate from the tax payers whose money that is, to do so. And for those who claim to be concerned with accountability and 'checks and balances', they have declared these actions to be outside the law.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1770963

That would be a good place to start before saying the junta did this or that. The missing seven months rides again. There was only Thaksin and his hand picked, re-shuffled cronies hanging out in the government house. The rest went home in February.

Yes it would- if it was even remotely connected to the post to which you were responding.

Or are you suggesting that when in a parliamentary system, the house is dissolved in preparation for calling an election, a coup d'etat is legitimated?- if so, Stephen Harper better watch his back- since there could well be a dissolution of parliament in Canada in the next few weeks.

Well if you want to get technical, some time between the naughty election in April 2006 and the coup the constitution ran out of steam as there were no catchall provisions. The concluding of reseating the parliament had to be done in ‘x’ amount of time that I think expired in early July. The term frequently used in the medai was “Uncharted waters.” So it still leaves only Thaksin and his cronies running things without a constitution to guide them.

Thaksin got so out of control to stay in control he started drawing blood from old men and young children. Now if the news in any indication of things to come, there will be a lot more blood in days to come.

So if given a choice to stop the blood of revenge, what would you do? I think you will find another coup is not such a bad option after all if it can save people lives who did nothing more than try to do the right thing for their country.

[John K]

Yongyuth resigns as People Power deputy leader

People Power Party party-list MP Yongyuth Tiyapairat has resigned as deputy leader and an executive of the party.

Samarn Lertwongrat, the registrar of the People Power, said Yongyuth resigned from the executive board Monday morning.

The Nation

Sounds like they know what is coming. I don't think jumping ship works anymore.

Bit of a strange comment, so I am going to assume (perhaps wrongly) that you are unfamiliar with the Parliamentry procedure.

As you will be well aware, Yongyuth Tiyapairat is going to be nominated, (and will undoubtedly succeed) in becoming the President of the House of Representatives (House Speaker) tomorrow. In order to assume this position, the Constitution states:

Article 124 (5)

While in office, the President or Vice-Presidents of the House of Representatives cannot be an executive or hold any position in a political party.

Yes you are right I was a bit premature so I withdraw the first half of my comment, however the second half is sound.

[Plus]

They don't have Thaksin, they don't have Somkid, the don't have even Thanong. And before Surapong takes over, somebody should serve him a bill for his pet ID card project - a flop of collossal proportions for a pigmey of his status.

Awhile ago weren't you claiming that Toxin set up the PPP as a proxy party?.....and now you are saying that PPP doesn't have Toxin.....seems contradictory....is it?

Chownah

Not at all, Thaksin HAS them, not the other way around. They can't rely on him, shattling between London and Hong Kong, to fix leaking economy for them, they can't order him to do THEIR job. He can order them to run HIS errands, and something tells me fighting strong baht and helping out exporters is not his top priority at the moment.

Thaksin's economic miracle run out of steam long before the coup, even in 2005 they quietly stopped preaching "dual-track", it didn't work. Exports and big corporations saved the day. Exports are under serious threat now, and big bang listings are the history. Who are they going to tax? Middle classes? They live on salaries, you can't squeeze anything out of them.

In 2000 Thaksin had a plan, quite clear, even if risky, and he had a team. Now they've got nothing.

[thaigene2]

They don't have Thaksin, they don't have Somkid, the don't have even Thanong. And before Surapong takes over, somebody should serve him a bill for his pet ID card project - a flop of collossal proportions for a pigmey of his status.

Awhile ago weren't you claiming that Toxin set up the PPP as a proxy party?.....and now you are saying that PPP doesn't have Toxin.....seems contradictory....is it?

Chownah

Not at all, Thaksin HAS them, not the other way around. They can't rely on him, shattling between London and Hong Kong, to fix leaking economy for them, they can't order him to do THEIR job. He can order them to run HIS errands, and something tells me fighting strong baht and helping out exporters is not his top priority at the moment.

Thaksin's economic miracle run out of steam long before the coup, even in 2005 they quietly stopped preaching "dual-track", it didn't work. Exports and big corporations saved the day. Exports are under serious threat now, and big bang listings are the history. Who are they going to tax? Middle classes? They live on salaries, you can't squeeze anything out of them.

In 2000 Thaksin had a plan, quite clear, even if risky, and he had a team. Now they've got nothing.

I think that's about right, actually.

[John K]

One last post in this thread for the anti junta people;

Please tell me what options you would have exercised to stop Thaksin from manipulating the situation.

Put yourself in the days before the coup with armed hired thugs coming down to Bangkok to trigger a reason for Thaksin to declare a state of emergency thus giving him the same absolute power as in the south. The scenario was set and escalating. Thaksin had already drawn first blood on unarmed innocent protesters.

I think you will find that Promising them milk and cookies if they behave is not a workable option. I can already see that is coming again and not too far in the future. The first 3 or 4 executive orders from the PPP will make it much clearer when that day will come.

So again what would you do?

[Lilawadee]

Yes, good comments from Plus recently.. I think we may actually reach some sort of consensus. (With a few notable exceptions, but hey.

Hmmm your posts have a distinctly recognizable tone to a few recent short lived members.

If you don't agree with me then just say so.

For someone so new and to have such a bold opinion, it would be nice if you could back up your comments with some hard facts before you dump on another member.

They're indeed comments; i.e. my opinion, just like you have your opinion. If you feel I have ever said something that was really factually incorrect (and that wasn't 'opinion') then please point to it and I will further clarify my position.

Their opinions are just as valid as yours but there is substance to them. Many of the posters in this forum have substantial educational attainments so keep that in mind before you decide to dump on them.

Sorry, I don't think I'm dumping (?) anything on anyone? Again, if you don't agree with me that's fine. As for educational attainments, if I see people actually advocate dictatorship, support a military coup, or 'managed' democracy, then I have a strong and opposite opinion to that, never mind their alleged Western educational attainment.

[Lilawadee]

One last post in this thread for the anti junta people;

Please tell me what options you would have exercised to stop Thaksin from manipulating the situation.

Put yourself in the days before the coup with armed hired thugs coming down to Bangkok to trigger a reason for Thaksin to declare a state of emergency thus giving him the same absolute power as in the south. The scenario was set and escalating. Thaksin had already drawn first blood on unarmed innocent protesters. I think you will find that Promising them milk and cookies if they behave is not a workable option. I can already see that is coming again and not too far in the future. The first 3 or 4 executive orders from the PPP will make it much clearer when that day will come. So again what would you do?

Perfect timing, great example I have a strong and opposite position on.

I think the above may be the only writing at this time that still supports the junta's claims for staging the coup. 1. There were no armed thugs, hired or not. 2. The only 'state of emergency' was declared after the coup, and many provinces remained under martial law for no clear reason. 3. Obviously the situation in the deep South warranted decisive action, when you run a country and extremists burn and behead children on their way to school then golly, you gotta do something! Also note the military government made absolutely zero progress there since taking over.

As for what I would do in the electoral stalemate caused by the boycott of the elections by the "Democrat" party, I think I would have allowed the constitutional court to be a little more decisive in interpreting the law and act in the spirit of the law and in the best interest of the country; I disagree this situation was so severe that it warranted a coup (we all know the true reasons for the coup, no need to go into that again). The most popular party, TRT kept winning elections.. that's a novelty for Thailand, but really quite common in many democracies around the world: When you please most of the people most of the time, they tend to vote you back into office. I realize the "Democrat" party felt like it lost out for too long, but honestly that's life in a democracy. If you want to run the country you need to get elected. They have alienated a huge block of voters, and it will take time and hard work to turn that around.

In short, 'what would I have done': NOTHING. Thaksin was the legitimate (caretaker) PM at the time who went to the country to get a fresh mandate, but a boycott by the "Democrat" party resulted in a stalemate. Now in this case I would let the constitutional court declare the Democrat Party's boycott to be an illligitimate derailment of the democratic process, and declare the electioin in those districts void, possibly declaring whoever got the most votes among the people who did vote to be the winning MP's to get the required quorum.

[John K]

Yes, good comments from Plus recently.. I think we may actually reach some sort of consensus. (With a few notable exceptions, but hey.

Hmmm your posts have a distinctly recognizable tone to a few recent short lived members.

If you don't agree with me then just say so.

For someone so new and to have such a bold opinion, it would be nice if you could back up your comments with some hard facts before you dump on another member.

They're indeed comments; i.e. my opinion, just like you have your opinion. If you feel I have ever said something that was really factually incorrect (and that wasn't 'opinion') then please point to it and I will further clarify my position.

Their opinions are just as valid as yours but there is substance to them. Many of the posters in this forum have substantial educational attainments so keep that in mind before you decide to dump on them.

Sorry, I don't think I'm dumping (?) anything on anyone? Again, if you don't agree with me that's fine. As for educational attainments, if I see people actually advocate dictatorship, support a military coup, or 'managed' democracy, then I have a strong and opposite opinion to that, never mind their alleged Western educational attainment.

Well I don’t want to come across as harsh but several posters have lost credibility when they come in making claims that only exist in their head. As a result the more established posters look for some evidence to back up what was said before engaging in what turns out to be a meaningless debate over fiction. In other parts of the forum the standards are not as high as in the news section and health sections, so the occasional BS is all part of the fun there.

Rather then challenging me to do your homework for you, I feel you are perfectly capable to research the threads yourself to find the supporting facts you seek. I already know what is there and based on your comment you do not. So please go and have a look.

While you are at it answer the question in post #2249 so we can get a chance to see what your made of. I am very sure how you answer that will be reflected in the level of respect you will get in the future. Right now you seem to come across as an armchair quarterback.

[Lilawadee]

See above. In short, I would have allowed the constitutional court to find a way to validate the election in spite of the Democrat Party in a handful of districts exploiting loopholes that made their boycott so powerful it effectively stalemated everything. My personal opinion is that this of course could be done without a coup.

Loads of civilized countries go through electoral difficulties at times.. Belgium right now, the USA 2 elections ago.. Yet they manage to solve it without the need for tanks in the streets. In staging the coup Thailand was set back decades. It may take 10 or more years to repair the damage.

[John K]

One last post in this thread for the anti junta people;

Please tell me what options you would have exercised to stop Thaksin from manipulating the situation.

Put yourself in the days before the coup with armed hired thugs coming down to Bangkok to trigger a reason for Thaksin to declare a state of emergency thus giving him the same absolute power as in the south. The scenario was set and escalating. Thaksin had already drawn first blood on unarmed innocent protesters. I think you will find that Promising them milk and cookies if they behave is not a workable option. I can already see that is coming again and not too far in the future. The first 3 or 4 executive orders from the PPP will make it much clearer when that day will come. So again what would you do?

Perfect timing, great example I have a strong and opposite position on.

I think the above may be the only writing at this time that still supports the junta's claims for staging the coup. 1. There were no armed thugs, hired or not. 2. The only 'state of emergency' was declared after the coup, and many provinces remained under martial law for no clear reason. 3. Obviously the situation in the deep South warranted decisive action, when you run a country and extremists burn and behead children on their way to school then golly, you gotta do something! Also note the military government made absolutely zero progress there since taking over.

As for what I would do in the electoral stalemate caused by the boycott of the elections by the "Democrat" party, I think I would have allowed the constitutional court to be a little more decisive in interpreting the law and act in the spirit of the law and in the best interest of the country; I disagree this situation was so severe that it warranted a coup (we all know the true reasons for the coup, no need to go into that again). The most popular party, TRT kept winning elections.. that's a novelty for Thailand, but really quite common in many democracies around the world: When you please most of the people most of the time, they tend to vote you back into office. I realize the "Democrat" party felt like it lost out for too long, but honestly that's life in a democracy. If you want to run the country you need to get elected. They have alienated a huge block of voters, and it will take time and hard work to turn that around.

In short, 'what would I have done': NOTHING. Thaksin was the legitimate (caretaker) PM at the time who went to the country to get a fresh mandate, but a boycott by the "Democrat" party resulted in a stalemate. Now in this case I would let the constitutional court declare the Democrat Party's boycott to be an illligitimate derailment of the democratic process, and declare the electioin in those districts void, possibly declaring whoever got the most votes among the people who did vote to be the winning MP's to get the required quorum.

OK good post and I wont challenge it, I just want to see how people think and I don’t think other should challenge other peoples opinions on what they would have done. It is a great way to show your level of intellect.

[Lilawadee]

Rather then challenging me to do your homework for you, I feel you are perfectly capable to research the threads yourself to find the supporting facts you seek. I already know what is there and based on your comment you do not. So please go and have a look.

Sorry, but I've said all I had to say and don't feel like digging up every post I ever made and regurgitate it once more. There's simply no need.

So let's move on, and if you see me make a claim in the future that you think is incorrect, don't hesitate to jump in and ask for clarification.

[sriracha john]

2. The only 'state of emergency' was declared after the coup

Not exactly... it was the Second one.

With thanks to 2bangkok:

This was the interupted television broadcast.

About This Video

This is former Thai PM Thaksin Shinawatra's declaration of a State Of Emergency made on September 19, 2006.

Edited January 21, 2008 by sriracha john

[Ricardo]

Thaksin was already one of the richest in the world before he became prim of Thailand, and don't forget that he got ride of all the coutry's depts.

"In the world ?" , I don't think so, in Thailand certainly. And the government , not Thaksin, repaid the debts to the IMF out of peoples' taxes, and this was already underway before Thaksin ever came to power, though he was in power when it was completed, and liked to take full political credit for the re-payment. "All the coutry's depts" ? ,I'm fairly sure that the country still has many bonds, and loan-instruments, outstanding - that's a normal part of public finance.

I think the above may be the only writing at this time that still supports the junta's claims for staging the coup.

Wrong. I too feel that, for all its faults, the coup got the country out of those 'uncharted waters', which many other observers thought were in the rapids and heading for a waterfall !

1. There were no armed thugs, hired or not.

Only about 400 Forestry Dept. workers, who were refusing to return their weapons at the time, to the army. Or the 'men in black-shirts, convicted drugs-dealers, directed to beat up old men & children by the local police-commander while on-camera ? Please try to get your facts right - or your credibility as a new poster will not last long, which would be a pity, as I'm sure you do have something to contribute.

In short, I would have allowed the constitutional court to find a way to validate the election in spite of the Democrat Party in a handful of districts exploiting loopholes that made their boycott so powerful it effectively stalemated everything.

The wise words of the Head of State, that a one-party election was no election at all, come to mind. The boycott was national, not just in a handful of districts, and was supported by many other parties, not just the Democrats, who also all believed that a fair election would not be possible. Your suggested-solution would be truly the blatant gerry-mandering, which Thaigene used to claim the EC were carrying-out in the recent election, and whose work has been applauded by Samak as completely fair, and has indeed put a PPP-led coalition-government into power.

In staging the coup Thailand was set back decades. It may take 10 or more years to repair the damage.

And the damage by Thaksin & TRT to the instruments of Thai democracy ?