Thailand's Reputation

[jumnien]

Ten years ago there was about 150 farang living in the Hua Hin area. With all these negative stories about Thailand permeating the world press these last few years, there are now about three to eight thousand farang living in the area and the numbers of new arrivals is staggering. We all wish that the hordes would choose to go elsewhere, life is good here. But, that doesn't seem to be the case.

[wilko]

Yeah just tel 'em...."Come to Thailand it's cheaper than wanking!" that's wot they do at home isn't it?

Right, and I'm sure you do a lot to dispel the negative image.

Thailand is seldom mentioned on US television unless there is some expose' being done on child prostitution where they inevitably link it to Southeast Asia. Beyond that, it is generally out of sight...out of mind .

Unfortunately, when there is a story that makes primetime national news headlines and Thailand is involved, it has been where high profile suspects such as John Karr or Christopher Neil are apprehended. The media doesn't use the story as an example of Thai Police doing a good job in apprehending them as much as they use it to reinforce the stereotype that it is a haven for pedophiles.

Actually, it's not a stereotype, it's a fact, although I will admit that it is quickly changing from being a haven. The Thai police seem to do a good job when there is an international man hunt involved, with the help of interpol and Western immigration and legal enforcement. Otherwise, they wouldn't care less, which is why it did become a haven in the first place.

That's the problem with stereotypes......people believe them!

[wilko]

Let's can the flames, ok?

Are you including yourself in the flaming!?!?!

[kat]

Yeah just tel 'em...."Come to Thailand it's cheaper than wanking!" that's wot they do at home isn't it?

Right, and I'm sure you do a lot to dispel the negative image.

Thailand is seldom mentioned on US television unless there is some expose' being done on child prostitution where they inevitably link it to Southeast Asia. Beyond that, it is generally out of sight...out of mind .

Unfortunately, when there is a story that makes primetime national news headlines and Thailand is involved, it has been where high profile suspects such as John Karr or Christopher Neil are apprehended. The media doesn't use the story as an example of Thai Police doing a good job in apprehending them as much as they use it to reinforce the stereotype that it is a haven for pedophiles.

Actually, it's not a stereotype, it's a fact, although I will admit that it is quickly changing from being a haven. The Thai police seem to do a good job when there is an international man hunt involved, with the help of interpol and Western immigration and legal enforcement. Otherwise, they wouldn't care less, which is why it did become a haven in the first place.

That's the problem with stereotypes......people believe them!

Well, where there's smoke, there's fire, son, especially when the source has been located.

*quote function

Edited January 7, 2008 by kat

[wilko]

....and they believe stereotypical adages like that too!

[DirkGently]

To be fair, sterotypes are based on facts that are used a little too generally. Thailand's reputation as a sex haven is fair enough. People come here because it is cheaper and safer than Brazil.

Upon my last trip to the Uk a friend's wife asked me if I was sure that my wife was a woman I quote "...and your sure she is a woman! You know what it;s like out there. It's all them he/shes, ain't it?" I simply patted her arm and said "when you get past Benidorm love, I'll tell you all about it"

I had another run in with a person in a pub who asked if I had paid for her or rented her by the hour. I laughed, said excuse me and knocked her drink into her lap. That was really funny.

I don't really care what people think of Thailand or of me here. When it comes to brass tacks, most of my friends are green with envy and my life here is nothing out of the ordinary.

For example, I had dinner with a couple i have known for years and was telling them what Thailand was 'really' like. When his wife went to the bathroom, he lent across and said "I'm really missing out stuck here with her, aren't I?"

All I had told them about was Thai people, getting away at weekends, Thai ways of doing things and the weather.

[wilko]

To be fair, sterotypes are based on facts that are used a little too generally. Thailand's reputation as a sex haven is fair enough. People come here because it is cheaper and safer than Brazil.

Upon my last trip to the Uk a friend's wife asked me if I was sure that my wife was a woman I quote "...and your sure she is a woman! You know what it;s like out there. It's all them he/shes, ain't it?" I simply patted her arm and said "when you get past Benidorm love, I'll tell you all about it"

I had another run in with a person in a pub who asked if I had paid for her or rented her by the hour. I laughed, said excuse me and knocked her drink into her lap. That was really funny.

I don't really care what people think of Thailand or of me here. When it comes to brass tacks, most of my friends are green with envy and my life here is nothing out of the ordinary.

For example, I had dinner with a couple i have known for years and was telling them what Thailand was 'really' like. When his wife went to the bathroom, he lent across and said "I'm really missing out stuck here with her, aren't I?"

All I had told them about was Thai people, getting away at weekends, Thai ways of doing things and the weather.

I'd tend to agree with that....no matter what you say/tell/do their are people who will always go for the stereotype. You can't have a stereotype without and example but that doesn't make it universally true.

Another good stereotype is the one I mentioned above.....to them Thailand has to be a sex haven or they have nothing to think about when they are wanking away in Wessex/Wisconsin/wherever

Edited January 7, 2008 by wilko

[kat]

....and they believe stereotypical adages like that too!

Well, if the shoe fits ... If you don't want to be put into the mold, then don't wear it, such as your stereotypical remark about masturbation and Thailand.

To be fair, sterotypes are based on facts that are used a little too generally. Thailand's reputation as a sex haven is fair enough. People come here because it is cheaper and safer than Brazil.

Upon my last trip to the Uk a friend's wife asked me if I was sure that my wife was a woman I quote "...and your sure she is a woman! You know what it;s like out there. It's all them he/shes, ain't it?" I simply patted her arm and said "when you get past Benidorm love, I'll tell you all about it"

I had another run in with a person in a pub who asked if I had paid for her or rented her by the hour. I laughed, said excuse me and knocked her drink into her lap. That was really funny.

I don't really care what people think of Thailand or of me here. When it comes to brass tacks, most of my friends are green with envy and my life here is nothing out of the ordinary.

For example, I had dinner with a couple i have known for years and was telling them what Thailand was 'really' like. When his wife went to the bathroom, he lent across and said "I'm really missing out stuck here with her, aren't I?"

All I had told them about was Thai people, getting away at weekends, Thai ways of doing things and the weather.

Right, except some of us have left Benidorm love, done the research, read the books, read the reports, read the newspapers, seen it ourselves, as well as every other honest person. The only other people who try to say that all is normal, are those who are invested. The problem with people who only learn of this from a distance, is that they can't detect deviations or differences from the dominant pattern, but there is no mistake that there IS a pattern, and it has escaped the confines of just LOS and has become a transnational phenomenon as well that has outpaced everywhere, including Brazil. There are reasons for this, but if you are already denying the fundamental fact that such a pattern occurs, discussion of those facts is a wasted effort. And, when the usual chorus emerges about proving fact, I've done that countless times on this forum backward, frontwards, and sideways. You can check my backposts, or you can walk into a bookstore in Thailand like Kinokuyia, read the newspapers, look around, google the ILO, ECPAT, UNICEF, Asia Foundation, CATW, Unifem, Human Rights Watch, Foundation for Women, Girls Foundation in Chiang Rai, among others.

Buy hey, I guess everybody's making this up because they don't really understand it like you and are jealous of your lifestyle.

*And in this case, I say google because that is the easiest thing to do over the internet. But, there are literally hundreds of research reports from various countries on this topic not available on the internet. You could also start your own research, by going to the Women's Studies Center at Chiang Mai University, which should keep you busy for a couple of years; but you won't, because you'd rather make shadow puppet attempts at defeating documented, well-established fact.

** I meant to say UN ESCAP above, but ECPAT is ok, albeit very one-sided.

*** Oh, and forget about looking at my back posts; the thread where I listed over 20 sources was pulled entirely ... Right-O then, never happened, like so much in LOS.

Edited January 7, 2008 by kat

[Citra]

Right, except some of us have left Benidorm love, done the research, read the books, read the reports, read the newspapers, seen it ourselves, as well as every other honest person.

His comment was in reference to a clearly uninformed expression of "are you sure she's female". I trust that for your good self, having read those books, read the reports, read the newspapers and most of all seen it for yourself in Thailand, woulnd't make such a silly and borderline offensive statement. (Assuming it wasn't in good natured jest; I wasn't there.)

The only other people who try to say that all is normal, are those who are invested.

I'm not invested other than being married and having a dual-Thai-Western kid. And I'm saying having a relationship with a Thai person is normal. Any disagreement?

The problem with people who only learn of this from a distance, is that they can't detect deviations or differences from the dominant pattern, but there is no mistake that there IS a pattern

I bet there's an '-ism' out there that describes that type of thinking on the part of those people.

but there is no mistake that there IS a pattern, and it has escaped the confines of just LOS and has become a transnational phenomenon as well that has outpaced everywhere, including Brazil. There are reasons for this, but if you are already denying the fundamental fact that such a pattern occurs, discussion of those facts is a wasted effort. And, when the usual chorus emerges about proving fact, I've done that countless times on this forum backward, frontwards, and sideways. You can check my backposts, or you can walk into a bookstore in Thailand like Kinokuyia, read the newspapers, look around, google the ILO, ECPAT, UNICEF, Asia Foundation, CATW, Unifem, Human Rights Watch, Foundation for Women, Girls Foundation in Chiang Rai, among others.

Why is any of the above relevant to people having holidays in Thailand and/or living in Thailand, possibly with a Thai spouse?

You have to be mindful where the pattern is, because the pattern for tourists in Thailand is that they go to Ayudthaya to look at ruins and to Ko Samui to lie on the beach. THATS the pattern; anything else is fringe.

And in this case, I say google because that is the easiest thing to do over the internet. But, there are literally hundreds of research reports from various countries on this topic not available on the internet. You could also start your own research, by going to the Women's Studies Center at Chiang Mai University, which should keep you busy for a couple of years; but you won't, because you'd rather make shadow puppet attempts at defeating documented, well-established fact.

Ok, now I'm completely lost. The topic is about the degree at which people who holiday in Thailand encounter negative and possibly ill informed vibes from people back home. I can assure you those people have not spent much time at Chiang Mai University before alleging that Dirk's wife is a prostitute or not female.

[kat]

Right, except some of us have left Benidorm love, done the research, read the books, read the reports, read the newspapers, seen it ourselves, as well as every other honest person.

His comment was in reference to a clearly uninformed expression of "are you sure she's female". I trust that for your good self, having read those books, read the reports, read the newspapers and most of all seen it for yourself in Thailand, woulnd't make such a silly and borderline offensive statement. (Assuming it wasn't in good natured jest; I wasn't there.)

No, I wasn't, I was referring to his comment as a whole. I've lived in Thailand, and am for the most part very good at spotting men passing as women, at least pre-op. However, as you know, Thailand is the number one destination for transgendered surgery in the world, and has a more prominent representation of ladyboys and transexuals than anywhere else. So, again, we have foolish and offensive stereotypes based on a knee-jerk glance from a distance, and we have documented facts that are uniquely recognized within a dominant pattern.

The only other people who try to say that all is normal, are those who are invested.

I'm not invested other than being married and having a dual-Thai-Western kid. And I'm saying having a relationship with a Thai person is normal. Any disagreement?

I'm not here to judge what's normal, only to discuss that there is in fact a well-documented pattern that is not a figment of the imagination of over-sensationalized media, or ignorant people. I don't know you to judge whether or not you are within the dominant pattern, and am not interested on a personal level, which isn't meant as an offense, only as an explanation. And yes, investment means both emotional and financial, but it is not inevitable.

The problem with people who only learn of this from a distance, is that they can't detect deviations or differences from the dominant pattern, but there is no mistake that there IS a pattern

I bet there's an '-ism' out there that describes that type of thinking on the part of those people.

Well, yes, that is the true definition of a stereotype, when you can only see the dominant pattern as a whole, but you can't read the details of that pattern at a micro level, or why and how they differ.

but there is no mistake that there IS a pattern, and it has escaped the confines of just LOS and has become a transnational phenomenon as well that has outpaced everywhere, including Brazil. There are reasons for this, but if you are already denying the fundamental fact that such a pattern occurs, discussion of those facts is a wasted effort. And, when the usual chorus emerges about proving fact, I've done that countless times on this forum backward, frontwards, and sideways. You can check my backposts, or you can walk into a bookstore in Thailand like Kinokuyia, read the newspapers, look around, google the ILO, ECPAT, UNICEF, Asia Foundation, CATW, Unifem, Human Rights Watch, Foundation for Women, Girls Foundation in Chiang Rai, among others.

Why is any of the above relevant to people having holidays in Thailand and/or living in Thailand, possibly with a Thai spouse?

You have to be mindful where the pattern is, because the pattern for tourists in Thailand is that they go to Ayudthaya to look at ruins and to Ko Samui to lie on the beach. THATS the pattern; anything else is fringe.

Right, but I'm addressing comments to people right here on this thread in response to this discussion.

And in this case, I say google because that is the easiest thing to do over the internet. But, there are literally hundreds of research reports from various countries on this topic not available on the internet. You could also start your own research, by going to the Women's Studies Center at Chiang Mai University, which should keep you busy for a couple of years; but you won't, because you'd rather make shadow puppet attempts at defeating documented, well-established fact.

Ok, now I'm completely lost. The topic is about the degree at which people who holiday in Thailand encounter negative and possibly ill informed vibes from people back home. I can assure you those people have not spent much time at Chiang Mai University before alleging that Dirk's wife is a prostitute or not female.

The topic is about perceptions on Thailand's reputation. There is a host of potential points on this topic, and whether or not they are hallucinatory or justified. Of course, people who dismiss it as hallucinatory also want to dismiss the alternative view that it is not, which is much more difficult to do in the face of documented facts. I'm sure you're right about the people making allegations on a personal level about someone's wife. However, not everyone who discusses this issue is doing so from a personal or reactionary perspective.

I hope that's more clear.

[wilko]

"If you don't want to be put into the mold, then don't wear it, such as your stereotypical remark about masturbation and Thailand."....

Duh...yeah?!?!?!

i think you shoud take time to read a bit more and get the comment in context

[kat]

Duh - yeah! I think you should THINK a lot more about your criticisms of stereotypical responses at home, and your stereotypical representation.

[wilko]

Life is too short for an infantile game of one-line tennis...especially with someone who's clearly not a very good player....perhaps you should take some of my "stereotypical" advice?

[kat]

Then you should stop aiming duds and go home. And save your stereotypical advice for your stereotypical friends.

I don't need to move to Thailand for cheap sex and I just got laid very nicely thank you, by a tall, gorgeous, latino male who can also hold a real conversation, and he's coming over to do it again, and doesn't cost me a thing except for temporarily strained relationships with the neighbors.

[Citra]

I don't need to move to Thailand for cheap sex and I just got laid very nicely thank you, by a tall, gorgeous, latino male who can also hold a real conversation, and he's coming over to do it again

So.. does that make him a sex tourist?

[kat]

Well, we're citizens of the same country, so I guess our bodies are the wonderland.

*typo/nice song by the way.

Edited January 7, 2008 by kat

[DirkGently]

Kat, your point would have been well made if it wasn't hidden amongst such gibberish. Your assertion that because there is an idiosyncratic number of ladyboys in Thailand that my friend's wife was somehow making a reasonable comment when casting doubts on the sex of my wife at birth.

Let's look at that. My friend and his wife have known me for 18 years. They also know that I have lived with, engaged in normal sexual relations with, not to mention tip-toed around once a month, my wife for, at that point for, 4 years. The idea that i would be unaware of her birth sex was just plain silly. As is your defense of such simplicity.

Hiding amongst your omniscient post were a few subtle signs of ignorance and misogyny (yes, even if you are a woman). Most of the posts on this thread were similar in one way or another to mine. In so much as to state that although there is a thriving sex trade in Thailand it is not typical of Thai women and Thai people per se. There are a number of cultural factors at play that could fill a thread all by itself. For example, not confronting people. This allows people to 'get away with things'.

Yes, there are men that travel to Thailand for sex and there are a number of Thais that provide it. So what? Are other countries devoid of a sex trade? or was it my comments on Brazil that wound you up? We may never know.

It was you with your assertion, padded out by naming organisations and not direct quotes, that implies that all or most of Thai women are/were involved in the sex trade and that western men can't tell a girl from a boy in make up that made this thread all the more tawdry.

Your statement that you don't have to come to thailand to get laid made me chuckle. I know that lots of western women do travel for sex. I know of a bar frequented by Africans and western ladies seeking more than a cultural exchange.

Kat, I have not read the information that gives weight to my prejudices, but I have worked with T.F.F (www.tff.or.th) and Goodwill (www.goodwill.org) that helps those that need it. However, I can see how barbed comments and gloating over sex makes you feel superior. Some may say that the reason they prefer Asian ladies to their western counterparts is that they are not like you.

BTW, please read all the way to the end of my post before lashing out. Not like your response to my first post. Read the part about what i had told my friend and his wife. "All I had told them about was Thai people, getting away at weekends, Thai ways of doing things and the weather." Doubtless your superior intelligence will be able to find any reference to cheap sex and ladyboys and Thai women with low morals inside of this short sentance.

Edited January 10, 2008 by DirkGently

[yorkman]

Ahem, just look at what no idea about Thailand started this thread.

Then calm down eh??

[PeaceBlondie]

Most of the people I know back home in the USA know nothing about Thailand, or Taiwan, or tying one on. When I return (whether they know of my sexual orientation or not) they hardly ask anything at all, just as they seldom did about Mexico (even when it was as close as 4 km from their home). Westerners don't really listen to the media; it is just sound bites of trees falling in the forest, silently.

If your friends back home think all Thai women are whores, you need to get new friends. I recently got laid by a Thai, and I feel fine, but that doesn't make me an expert on Thailand.

[cm-happy]

Most of the people I know back home in the USA know nothing about Thailand, or Taiwan, or tying one on. When I return (whether they know of my sexual orientation or not) they hardly ask anything at all, just as they seldom did about Mexico (even when it was as close as 4 km from their home). Westerners don't really listen to the media; it is just sound bites of trees falling in the forest, silently.

If your friends back home think all Thai women are whores, you need to get new friends. I recently got laid by a Thai, and I feel fine, but that doesn't make me an expert on Thailand.

PB I'm shocked! How was it for you and how was it for your partner? I'm teasing. I should be so lucky! Maybe I'll head out tonight and test the waters.

[PeaceBlondie]

Well, I wouldn't have mentioned it, except kat thought it was on topic to mention.

[kat]

Kat, your point would have been well made if it wasn't hidden amongst such gibberish. Your assertion that because there is an idiosyncratic number of ladyboys in Thailand that my friend's wife was somehow making a reasonable comment when casting doubts on the sex of my wife at birth.

Let's look at that. My friend and his wife have known me for 18 years. They also know that I have lived with, engaged in normal sexual relations with, not to mention tip-toed around once a month, my wife for, at that point for, 4 years. The idea that i would be unaware of her birth sex was just plain silly. As is your defense of such simplicity.

Hiding amongst your omniscient post were a few subtle signs of ignorance and misogyny (yes, even if you are a woman). Most of the posts on this thread were similar in one way or another to mine. In so much as to state that although there is a thriving sex trade in Thailand it is not typical of Thai women and Thai people per se. There are a number of cultural factors at play that could fill a thread all by itself. For example, not confronting people. This allows people to 'get away with things'.

Yes, there are men that travel to Thailand for sex and there are a number of Thais that provide it. So what? Are other countries devoid of a sex trade? or was it my comments on Brazil that wound you up? We may never know.

It was you with your assertion, padded out by naming organisations and not direct quotes, that implies that all or most of Thai women are/were involved in the sex trade and that western men can't tell a girl from a boy in make up that made this thread all the more tawdry.

Your statement that you don't have to come to thailand to get laid made me chuckle. I know that lots of western women do travel for sex. I know of a bar frequented by Africans and western ladies seeking more than a cultural exchange.

Kat, I have not read the information that gives weight to my prejudices, but I have worked with T.F.F (www.tff.or.th) and Goodwill (www.goodwill.org) that helps those that need it. However, I can see how barbed comments and gloating over sex makes you feel superior. Some may say that the reason they prefer Asian ladies to their western counterparts is that they are not like you.

BTW, please read all the way to the end of my post before lashing out. Not like your response to my first post. Read the part about what i had told my friend and his wife. "All I had told them about was Thai people, getting away at weekends, Thai ways of doing things and the weather." Doubtless your superior intelligence will be able to find any reference to cheap sex and ladyboys and Thai women with low morals inside of this short sentance.

I knew my prior posts were going to be a waste of time; this one will probably be as well.

I was away for awhile on another thread and had limited energy because I was sick, but I wanted to clarify. Please respond to what I write, rather than on a convenient target for your rant. I wasn't the one to make disparaging remarks about your partner, and do not support that behavior. I have elaborated on my points in prior posts, and substantiated what I was saying based on facts, not a rant; you dismissed this as "gibberish" in your obvious preference for personal insults (i.e. Your preference or lack thereof for "women like me" is of no interest to me personally and is irrelevant to this discussion).

I'll try to make it simple this time: The thread questions people's misconceptions "at home" about Thailand based on news reports from afar, with other posters and yourself asserting that these perceptions are founded on ignorance and sensationalism. The OP mentioned pedophiles and perceptions of bringing home a Thai wife. I disagree that these perceptions are founded on ignorance and sensationalism, and provided examples and can substantiate why Thailand is correctly understood to be a destination of Westerners for sex tourists, pedophiles, and consumers/participants of a large marriage and dating market, which overwhelmingly represents distinct regions of the Country.

My point is that although parties at home may be ignorant in their prejudicial opinions pitched at individuals and their intent at voicing those opinions, the overall information on a macro level is not sensationalized. There are a large number of migrations back and forth to specific Western countries of specific relationship types between Western men and Thais as to form an overall pattern. This is a fact, whether you like it or not.

Therefore, in my OPINION, if you want to lay the blame of ignorance for these perceptions at someone's feet to assuage your feelings of discomfort, you will have to equally divide blame among the Thai culture and policy which produces these large scale patterns at a rapid pace, the Western demand which feeds their continuance, as WELL as the annoying neighbors who make disparaging remarks about these patterns which are appearing in their social environment faster than they can be understood properly.

[kat]

Kat, your point would have been well made if it wasn't hidden amongst such gibberish. Your assertion that because there is an idiosyncratic number of ladyboys in Thailand that my friend's wife was somehow making a reasonable comment when casting doubts on the sex of my wife at birth.

And to be crystal clear:

No, that was NOT my point. Please see my last point above.