Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[DamianMavis]

Hey, old guys, news flash. TATTOOS are a trendy fad with the youth these days, they have absolutely no link to behaviour patterns. They get them to be more cool. If I could remember all the North American girlfriends I had with tattoos, belly piercings and tongue piercings, all on pretty, intelligent, normal girls. Sheesh....

Damian

[Arkady]

Perfect! Expose these dirty cops and hopefully impact the tourism to this region. Loss of face seems to be more powerful than honesty and justice unfortunately.

If tourist figures fall the only people who'll suffer are the guesthouse and nightclub owners who have no influence over the behaviour of the police and who seem to get a fair amount of stick from the BiB themselves.

Wrong. The police obviously suffer too because their protection racket operations can't extort money from businesses that have closed down. Many of them own businesses themselves too. I think publicising internationally the dangers of police corruption and indiscipline and the lack of rule of law in Thailand to potential tourists is important. It is maybe a small step but it is all that foreigners can do. The Thai establishment certainly takes no notice of stories of police brutality against Thais but when publicised abroad it is more of a loss of face.

Re tatoos. I am not a fan of them myself and wonder whether some kids will still like their more outre tatoos in their 60s. Carly's eye tatoo is ghastly but looking closely at the video clip it looks as if that one and the tatoo on her right forearm may be henna tatoos of the type that fade away in a couple of weeks. I hope so for her sake.

Nice one the news this morning about the Border Patrol Police gang led by a captain kidnapping small children and demanding ransom from their mother. Another fine example of the good uses off duty cops find for their guns. With brave police like that protecting the borders, who needs criminals?

[thaigene2]

Police corrupt in Thailand? Next you'll be saying they kidnap and extort people...

The Nation

Nice try but no one will click the link. So a summary: Today's Nation says a dozen or so Thai police have been arrested or are on the run with warrants out for them after they allegedly kidnapped a rich Thai woman, her kids, a maid and another person. They beat one of the kids at a place near Soi Aree not far from their police headquarters in Bangkok (Border Police on Paholyothin). They then threatened and coerced the mother into draining enarly 9 million baht from her banks accounts after which they freed the group in another part of town.

She went to the Metropolitan Police and they swooped in on the gang on 24th January at the Aree Residence, there was a stand-off but eventually they gave up around 9 cops were arrested (including a Captain) and a few civilians -- others are on the lamb. They recovered around 5 millikon baht in cash, a variety of weapons and 200 rounds of ammo.

Investigators and prosecutors asked for no bail to be granted. I dont know what happened after that.

But how interesting - one police force catches another in extortion and kidnapping. Now what?

Edited January 26, 2008 by thaigene2

[jellymeister]

100% agree with the last posts. Thailand is a great country that doesn't deserve the reputation it has abroad.

Thailand has much more to offer than cheap drugs and prostitutes. People who look for trouble and find it shoudn't deserve some much attention.

You left out human trafficking, child prostitution, slavery, corruption at every level, rescue teams shooting at each other, dangerous roads and drivers, intellectual property, etc.

Also where else could you live in the world and tell people you had actually survived military coups and tsunamis.....

The only thing missing from Thaialnd is plagues of locusts....but then again you can get the deep fried version on the way home from the pub.....

New TAT advertising slogan....."Thailand, we got it all"

[jellymeister]

Perfect! Expose these dirty cops and hopefully impact the tourism to this region. Loss of face seems to be more powerful than honesty and justice unfortunately.

If tourist figures fall the only people who'll suffer are the guesthouse and nightclub owners who have no influence over the behaviour of the police and who seem to get a fair amount of stick from the BiB themselves.

True, but perhaps the locals won't be so interested in supporting the police's story if this happens again. Perhaps the locals will confront the cops for what they did and how they handled this murder.

I personally don't care if it affects nightclubs. Thailand shouldn't be about drinking in my opinion. So much of the trouble that arises between tourists, expats and locals is the result of drinking. The relationships we form should be about culture, nature and friendships... leaving alcohol out of it would only be a positive move... in my opinion.

Good post. While we all agree that the likes of drunken abusive farang women with tatooed balls orbiting one eye should not be shot by policemen just for acting extremely culturally insensitve, most of us believe there is much that the farang population can improve in its own behavior that would bring far less grief from the Thais. Courage to change the things we can - ourselves! Next time you see yourself in a potentially confrontative situation here in Thailand I suggest you smile, lower your head in respect and gracefully exit the situation - works very well with Thais and even better with other farangs! Simple things can save lives!

No need to smile or bow....simply reach for one's wallet and produce a couple of crisp notes for the offended party....can extrivate you from almost any situation in the Land of Wallets...errrr Smiles

[Kerryd]

I realise that not many people have probably read every post in this thread, but some might want to go back to the beginning and re-read the early stuff. I've read every post so far (that's a couple few hours I'll never get back) and I've just scanned through the entire thread again to pick some interesting bits out here and there.

For example, the first news article posted (on 7 Jan), in which the following was noted:

"Quoting witnesses, case investigator Pol Lt-Colonel Sombat Panya said the couple had been drinking in a local pub called Ting Tong. They became involved in a drunken brawl after Del Pinto, who recently arrived in Thailand, found out that Reisig had become pregnant with a Thai man known as Fuen."

Well, where do you think the "witnesses" got that information from ? Or do you think the police just made that story up ?

Upon arriving at the scene, one of the first things the police would have done is question people about what happened and why. Hmmm, do you think that maybe some people overheard them arguing about this subject, and told the police ? Or perhaps the "witnesses" just made the story up out of thin air ?

(note that in the initial report, they were drinking in the "Ting Tong" bar. Later (in an article posted on the 8th) it is said to have been the "Be Bop")

(note also that the initial stories mention Carly as being Leo's wife)

Another quote from another news story later the same day:

"The bullet grazed Reisig's upper left torso and the fetus was unharmed, Sombat said."

So where does this information come from ?

(note that here it is said that the bullet "grazed" her. Later on it becomes (within 2 cm [1 inch] of her heart).

(interesting note - the news article linked early on to the Guardian was removed "This article has been removed due to an ongoing investigation")

Yet another story from the 7th, in which Carly is interviewed in the hospital:

"Tilney said Reisig is in shock and upset over the shootings, which she said started when she and Del Pinto left a bar. Reisig, who denied being pregnant, said she arrived in Thailand several days ago to visit Del Pinto, who she said was her ex-boyfriend and good friend.

(note - first time Carly denies being pregnant, but states that she was the one who recently arrived in Thailand. So again, where did the initial report about her being pregnant come from ?)

Reisig said she and Del Pinto were not fighting when they left the bar and passed an undercover officer while walking to another part of town. She said the man rushed up and hit her and that Del Pinto subsequently shoved the man.

(Hmmmmm, how did she come to the conclusion that it was an "undercover policeman" ? Especially when he "rushed up and hit her" ? Either Uthai had indeed identified himself as a policeman, and she assumed he was "undercover" as he was in civilian clothing, or she was informed (by Tilney ?) that the man who shot her was a policeman.)

"According to Reisig, the man then rushed to a nearby motorcycle and retrieved a gun. Del Pinto and the man struggled for control of the gun before the man shot them both, she said."

Same day (7 Jan) Calgary Herald article:

"Media reports claimed she was pregnant at the time of the shooting, but a family spokesman disputed that.

"We talked to some of his friends over there and we don't believe she was pregnant," said Ross Fortune, who is engaged to one of Del Pinto's sisters."

On the 8th, this:

" "A man came up to me on the road near Pee Dang's Restaurant and hit me for no reason.

"My face was painted with face paint, for fun, but I don't know why he hit me. We had never met him before, never seen him before."

(note: Then how is it she knew he was an undercover police officer, as she stated to Tilney earlier ?)

Her story changes a bit in this article (posted on the 8th):

"Reisig told the Herald today that a Thai man punched her as the pair were returning home from a bar. When Delpinto defended her, she said the man pulled out a gun and shot Delpinto in the head and chest."

(note - in earlier articles/statements she said that the man went back to his motorcycle to get the gun. Now he just "pulled" it out)

And here from the "exclusive" Canadian Press interview:

"“And John, he just said, ’Nobody hits her,’ and he pushed the guy down on the ground and when the guy got up, he had a pistol in his hand.”"

(Wow. Lot of posters here have commented on how her story has never changed since the beginning. Hmmmmmm)

From an Australian article on the 8th:

"When the argument among the Canadians and the Thai man turned violent, restaurant workers asked off-duty police officer Sergeant Uthai Dejwiwat to break up the fight."

(Hmmmm, where did this come from ? It's the first mention (of the news articles posted in the thread by this time) that the "alleged" argument included "the Thai man" (Fuen), and had turned violent)

Carly has repeatedly denied that there was any argument or fight between them that night. The owner of the Be Bop said they weren't fighting in the bar, but heard that they "may have been play-fighting" outside. And in a post from a board member on 9 Jan:

"I spoke with two eyewitnesses on the scene in Pai, including the owner of the roadside restaurant. Both said the couple were definitely fighting and that Daeng (restaurant owner) asked the policeman to try and stop the fight."

(I'm not familiar with Pai. How far is it from the Be Bop to the bridge where the shooting took place ? Apparently the Be Bop is about 500 meters away. Is the restaurant closer to the scene ?)

And from 10 Jan:

"Wanchai quoted witnesses as saying Uthai, who had just finished his shift, was asked to stop a three-way fight between John Leo Del Pinto, 25, his ex-girlfriend Carly Reisig, 24, and her Thai boyfriend on Saturday night.

Del Pinto, a native of Calgary, was trying to stop the Thai man from beating Reisig after she said she was going back to her Canadian boyfriend, Wanchai quoted the witnesses as saying."

(same witnesses as previously quoted, or different ones ? We've heard from other "witnesses" that Uthai was seen drinking elsewhere earlier in the evening, so the part about him just finishing his shift is suspect, though that may be something he told those witnesses. "I just finished my shift now give me a drink" or something along those lines. This article is also where the police retract their statement that she was pregnant.)

And from 15 Jan (as posted by another board memeber):

"There is one witness from Daeng's claiming that Feun (Reisig's current boyfriend) started the fight that resulted in Sgt Maj Uthai's approach. This witness is willing to go on record and be named, and has no apparent connection to the police."

Odd note again. Earlier she mentioned that they "passed an undercover officer" who then "rushed up and hit her". Yet a couple days later "Things are a bit foggy. I can’t quite remember what happened before the incident."

There was (is) some minor controversy over some other statements as well.

"I blacked out and when I came to I saw Leo lying dead on the road beside me." (Carly's statement from 8 Jan)

"With Del Pinto dead on the bridge and Reisig unconscious a short way down the road where she had stumbled after she was shot." (police statement - posted 11 Jan)

For those who watched the re-enactment in the CBC video clip, and noted that the position shown for Carly was quite abit further away, that would possibly explain it. However, other parts of the police (Uthai's) statement don't ring true:

"Dechawiwat saw some people come toward the scene and pulled him away. He then said he went to the police station and filed a report."

Doesn't quite match the earlier statements where he "fled" the scene and turned himself in later.

As far as I can tell, the police never took a statement from Carly or Fuen ! No mention of it anywhere ! I'd say that was a major screw-up on the part of the police.

However, with Carly telling all those stories to the different news agencies/reporters, any testimony she would give is now tainted.

The police expected their investigation to be completed by the end of the month (5 more days). Wonder if we'll hear anything about it ?

It has now been almost 3 weeks since the shooting. No word on if Carly is still in the hospital, or the whereabouts of Fuen, or Uthai even.

I'd be curious to see, if anyone there could take some pictures of that area (especially around 1 am), maybe looking from the Be Bop towards the bridge, and the restaurant/food vendor stand where the witnesses supposedly saw everything except the actual shooting. The pics previously posted here showed the bridge, in daytime, with hardly anything or anybody around.

[jellymeister]

May be stretching it a bit here, but is there any chance that this shooting is somehow a legacy of Mr T's war on the druggistas, but that the command to ceasefire never made it to the troops(cops) on the frontlines out in the sticks, kind of like the Japanese soldiers found in the jungles of SE Asis still fighting 40 years after the end of WW2.

Also, we will never know, but it would be interesting to know how many "druggies" Utthai capped during the Mr T Official war on drug timeframe,.....or during his entire career.....I am guessing that he has capped a few asses before....

[Tony Clifton]

Expect many versions of the events from the cop/s, even while in court. Just like happened with the kanchanaburi cop pretending to be under the orders of a mysterious (fictious) Mr Who or something like that.. It was and will again be shockingly absurd.

Here's another case fresh from today:

Court detains 8 police involved in kidnap

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/01/27...es_30063543.php

The Royal Thai Police and other law enforcement agencies needs a serious and long overdue flush of all the criminals and incompetents amongst their ranks. Biiiig job, but as long as it's not done, that's waht makes the country a farce on the international scene.

Edited January 26, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[yorkman]

yorkman the only summary I get from you is IGNORANCE!

Errrr... thanks for the input

[geriatrickid]

I realise that not many people have probably read every post in this thread, but some might want to go back to the beginning and re-read the early stuff.

Your summary of reports is a must read. Unfortunately, for those that have existing biases towards the Thai police, both legitimate and illegitimate, will not understand. They will look and search for "facts" that will support their respective biased positions. I note that for many of those of us that would prefer to await the investigation results, without joining in the mob's bloodlust for revenge, that we are accused of being apologists for existing problems with the various Thai police units. We are not. On the contrary, the positions of those saying, hey look at all the statements, consider the people involved, let's get all the facts before condemning, are the ones that have an understanding of the concept of justice that those in the mad dash for a lynching don't have.

[permanent_disorder]

Hey, old guys, news flash. TATTOOS are a trendy fad with the youth these days, they have absolutely no link to behaviour patterns. They get them to be more cool. If I could remember all the North American girlfriends I had with tattoos, belly piercings and tongue piercings, all on pretty, intelligent, normal girls. Sheesh....

Damian

nahh, old boy. tattoos are so nineties. the opposite is the trend. now tattoo removal is a fast-growing business.

i agree, the 'psychologist on tattoo' article is unscientific nonsense.

in the west tattoos are boring mainstream now, not specific reletad to a youth or subculture or crime anymore. not the dropouts but the adjusted youth getting tattoos now.

a stupid fashion trend like pigeon blue shoulder pads blousons. sheep with herd instinct.

but having a facial tattoo is a little bit odd. with that you still demonstrate ' i am not a part of it, i am the other'.

[grantbkk]

Hey, old guys, news flash. TATTOOS are a trendy fad with the youth these days, they have absolutely no link to behaviour patterns. They get them to be more cool. If I could remember all the North American girlfriends I had with tattoos, belly piercings and tongue piercings, all on pretty, intelligent, normal girls. Sheesh....

Damian

nahh, old boy. tattoos are so nineties. the opposite is the trend. now tattoo removal is a fast-growing business.

i agree, the 'psychologist on tattoo' article is unscientific nonsense.

in the west tattoos are boring mainstream now, not specific reletad to a youth or subculture or crime anymore. not the dropouts but the adjusted youth getting tattoos now.

a stupid fashion trend like pigeon blue shoulder pads blousons. sheep with herd instinct.

but having a facial tattoo is a little bit odd. with that you still demonstrate ' i am not a part of it, i am the other'.

Tattoos are at sometimes a fashion statement however more often than not they are a sign of life's darker aspects. Remember about 6 years ago almost every entertainment worker here in the Kingdom had a tattoo. If you talk to those same people today all they can think about is removing said tattoos. It was a trend but no one took into consideration the social stigma that these tattoos would cause for the rest of their lives. Here in Thailand if a woman (girl) tries to turn her life around the tattoo or tattoos becomes an obstacle as it identifies her as a "bar-girl" for the rest of her life.

We see foreign men walking around Bangkok and other tourist spots shirtless with numerous tattoos often done with little or no thought as to design or art and feel sorry that they will never have the education or drive to contribute to society in any way. Often they are the binge drinkers who last about a week before returning to the oil rig or forklift. As for the face tattoos, with the exception of races and religions in remote spots on the planet, they should be limited to permanent eyeliner. One of the most recognizable face tattoos is on Crazy Mike Tyson. Little else needs to be said. No education, no self control, no self esteem, a convicted felon with no prospects and deep routed psychological problems.

One look at a face tattoo and the observer begins to assess the idiot. Right or wrong, while the wearer may think he or she is cool and a bit of a rebel, others think a bit differently. Many think about the person sporting those tattoos as fools with too much money and time on their hands who lack the ability to make rational decisions due to poor education and social skills. They tend not to fit in and there is a lot of conflict in their lives. Aggression is a trait that comes to mind when you permanently tattoo your face to look like some kind of warrior. Often while these people had troubled childhoods that included being sexually molested by one of their parents or maybe a step-father. Everything wrong with the Mike Tyson example comes into play here with the biggie being no sense of self esteem. Whether it's the planets around the eye, a prison tattoo on the face to gain recognition for crimes committed or an ancient warrior face tattoo the person probably should seek professional help. This goes way beyond old guys not being able to recognize fashion trends.

Edited January 27, 2008 by grantbkk

[Galong]

Holy Cow! I guess they should put signs up outside of tattoo parlors warning people that if they want to put some artwork on their bodies, SOME people are going to automatically think that they will be seen as idiots, sociopaths, evil-doers and criminals hel_l bent on causing problems for the honest hard-working folks here at Thai Visa. Geez, this is getting a bit ridiculous even for this forum.

[Pierrot]

100% agree with the last posts. Thailand is a great country that doesn't deserve the reputation it has abroad.

Thailand has much more to offer than cheap drugs and prostitutes. People who look for trouble and find it shoudn't deserve some much attention.

You left out human trafficking, child prostitution, slavery, corruption at every level, rescue teams shooting at each other, dangerous roads and drivers, intellectual property, etc.

Rescue teams shooting at each other is definitely, like Pad Thai, specific to Thailand, I have to agree with that. But on the other subjects, I don't think Thailand is worse than any other country in the word.

Beside the obvious Singapor, can you give the name of an othe country in Asia that is safer for foreigner than Thailand?

[Claymore]

I realise that not many people have probably read every post in this thread, but some might want to go back to the beginning and re-read the early stuff. I've read every post so far (that's a couple few hours I'll never get back) and I've just scanned through the entire thread again to pick some interesting bits out here and there.

etc etc

As far as I can tell, the police never took a statement from Carly or Fuen ! No mention of it anywhere ! I'd say that was a major screw-up on the part of the police.

etc etc

end quotes

Wow such a long email which on a closer look does not take this much further. All we have here is differing accounts ie the police version versus Carly's version and the author's interpretation that Carly has changed her story. I cant see it. She has consistently claimed the policeman hit first, Leo pushed him to the ground. The cop went to get his gun (from the m/c) and shot Leo one in the head, one in the chest when he fell to the ground and then turned his gun on her. Whether you believe her version is another matter. She admits that she was drunk at the time and them moments up to the first blow were hazy. Her description of the shooting is fairly convincing though.

In the Kanchanburi case Wisetsingh first shot Adam Lloyd, then as Vanessa Arscott run he ran her down in his blue Volvo, dragging her body under the car.

Then as she crawled to a pylong and tried to pull herself up crying help he shot her in the face, throat and chest. Bang. Bang. Bang.

Carly says Uthai's aim was deliberate. Bang. Bang. Bang.

I would believe he intended to kill her so she could not be a witness.

I do not know where the author got the idea that police never took statements from Carly or Fuen (Fune).

A.D. tells me another police force in now involved in this enquiry btw. A new witness with a new version is in the offing.

[Claymore]

[However, with Carly telling all those stories to the different news agencies/reporters, any testimony she would give is now tainted.

end quote

Well of course if Carly had not opened her mouth this case would have been done and dusted a long time ago and she might even be in jail herself because th police version on day one was swallowed by all - including the news agencies - hence the removal of the story in The Guardian - probably after an irate Guardian reader questioned it.

[DamianMavis]

Kerryd, one thing I'll comment on. To me and alot of people (maybe its a Canadian thing) we will refer to a police out of uniform as undercover. Surely someone AFTER she was shot told her it was a cop.

Damian

[ozzydom]

quote=

Rescue teams shooting at each other is definitely, like Pad Thai, specific to Thailand, I have to agree with that. But on the other subjects, I don't think Thailand is worse than any other country in the word.

Turf wars are not restricted to Thailand , from the tow truck operators in Oz to the warlords of Mogadishu and every place in between ,if there is a buck to be made then greed rears its ugly head.

[DamianMavis]

Rescue teams shooting at each other is definitely, like Pad Thai, specific to Thailand, I have to agree with that. But on the other subjects, I don't think Thailand is worse than any other country in the word.

Beside the obvious Singapor, can you give the name of an othe country in Asia that is safer for foreigner than Thailand?

Japan and Korea off the top of my head.

Damian

[DamianMavis]

Permanent Disorder, yes Facial tattoos are odd. They immediately limit you in your life options as most employers will not hire someone with facial tattoos in North America.

Damian

[Claymore]

Kerryd, one thing I'll comment on. To me and alot of people (maybe its a Canadian thing) we will refer to a police out of uniform as undercover. Surely someone AFTER she was shot told her it was a cop.

Damian

Right

[sabaijai]

I think there comes a point when anyone who has been following these ad nauseum "serial apologist posters" realizes that there simply can be no realsitic motivation for anyone with anything better to do than sit here and constantly defend the Thai policeman and his motives - especially in light of what appears to be pretty damning evidence to the contrary.

what is the evidence? could you give a summary?

I can give a summary.

2 tourists, a couple, who wanted to tour around Thailand and think they can do as they please if they come here.

They get a bit over the top. The lady decides to "integrate"

And then in a boozy argumentative moment about their relationship they meet a nutter with a gun, and they do not move away.

Another statistic, nothing more, pure stupidity

What boozy argumentative story about their relationship? And you think she is pregnant too dont you? These stories were being spread as propaganda by the police to try to support a motive for the cop to approach them. Its already been proven that both the argument and the pregnancy were false stories. Carly was with her THAI boyfriend. And how do you know they didnt move away? Oh right because the POLICE said that all three of them attacked the cop for no reason, right I forgot about that blatant ridiculous lie... but uh, why are you believing it? Even if you dont believe that the cop just ran up and hit her, do you really believe that lame story of Carly, Leo AND Fuen (the Thai boyfriend) all attacking the cop for no reason and THEN his gun fell out of his holster and suddenly that initiated a struggle for the gun which led to 3 ACCIDENTAL bullets being fired killing one and mortally wounding another?. I doubt you even read these things right? No where has it been proven that a gun was pulled on them and they attacked with a gun pointed right at them, this is outrageously silly to even think of buying into. So I dont know what you are calling stupidity.

Damian

Damian, other than the pregnancy (which has yet to be confirmed or refuted, other than by Carly's verbal account) -- a story for which the original source isn't known (it was a rumour around Pai before the shooting, and still is) -- the police did not spread stories about any aspect of this. They recounted Uthai's testimony, which they obviously suspect themselves, since they charged the office with murder.

As far as I can tell, the Pai police have made next to zero public statement about Carly's history in Pai, not even mentioning her previous arrest for fighting at Be-Bop and striking a policeman. All of that, along with Carly's reputed penchant for verbal abuse and violence, has come from statements made by acquaintances and independent eyewitnesses. It is anything but police propaganda.

Looking at the context for the crime is not an apology for the shooting or for the police, it's a simple attempt to illuminate the facts. If the only aspect of this story you care about is that the policeman committed murder, that's fine. If you don't find testimony contrary to Carly's relevant, you're welcome to that opinion. But don't presume to prescribe what those you disagree with may want to consider.

[sabaijai]

"Not really, at least not until there's a global court system. if you mean this tragedy should be covered in international media, it is, albeit to a steadily diminishing degree, as happens with crime anywhere in the world."

No, I was responding to your earlier comment that it didn't matter who was "right" or "wrong" on a global sense. It does matter when people from an international sphere have to face off with Thailand's legal/judiciary system, and more people are watching.

True, and all the more reason it's important to view the entire context for the tragedy. This goes back to what I tried to point out earlier, i.e., if one acknowledges that the Thai law enforcement and judicial systems are corrupt, and justice cannot be had, then you must acknowledge that any verbal or physical affront to individuals who are part of that system is very, very risky.

[Claymore]

Damian, other than the pregnancy (which has yet to be confirmed or refuted, other than by Carly's verbal account) -- a story for which the original source isn't known (it was a rumour around Pai before the shooting, and still is) -- the police did not spread stories about any aspect of this. They recounted Uthai's testimony, which they obviously suspect themselves, since they charged the office with murder.

As far as I can tell, the Pai police have made next to zero public statement about Carly's history in Pai, not even mentioning her previous arrest for fighting at Be-Bop and striking a policeman. All of that, along with Carly's reputed penchant for verbal abuse and violence, has come from statements made by acquaintances and independent eyewitnesses. It is anything but police propaganda.

Looking at the context for the crime is not an apology for the shooting or for the police, it's a simple attempt to illuminate the facts. If the only aspect of this story you care about is that the policeman committed murder, that's fine. If you don't find testimony contrary to Carly's relevant, you're welcome to that opinion. But don't presume to prescribe what those you disagree with may want to consider.

I rather think I am prepared to believe Carly's story that she is not pregnant as opposed to Pai village gossip. The original source is known it was the policeman assigned to the investigation. He was also the source for saying that the foetus was not affected etc. Its all out there in black and white. Apart from Carly nobody has gone public in the newspapers (they have here though) about the previous incident with the policeman and the row with a previous boyfriend. She is quite upfront when questioned about it. She was not accused of fighting at Bebop. She admitted hitting a policeman, one of several who had surrounded her boyfriend.

[sabaijai]

Damian, other than the pregnancy (which has yet to be confirmed or refuted, other than by Carly's verbal account) -- a story for which the original source isn't known (it was a rumour around Pai before the shooting, and still is) -- the police did not spread stories about any aspect of this. They recounted Uthai's testimony, which they obviously suspect themselves, since they charged the office with murder.

As far as I can tell, the Pai police have made next to zero public statement about Carly's history in Pai, not even mentioning her previous arrest for fighting at Be-Bop and striking a policeman. All of that, along with Carly's reputed penchant for verbal abuse and violence, has come from statements made by acquaintances and independent eyewitnesses. It is anything but police propaganda.

Looking at the context for the crime is not an apology for the shooting or for the police, it's a simple attempt to illuminate the facts. If the only aspect of this story you care about is that the policeman committed murder, that's fine. If you don't find testimony contrary to Carly's relevant, you're welcome to that opinion. But don't presume to prescribe what those you disagree with may want to consider.

I rather think I am prepared to believe Carly's story that she is not pregnant as opposed to Pai village gossip. The original source is known it was the policeman assigned to the investigation. He was also the source for saying that the foetus was not affected etc. Its all out there in black and white. Apart from Carly nobody has gone public in the newspapers (they have here though) about the previous incident with the policeman and the row with a previous boyfriend. She is quite upfront when questioned about it. She was not accused of fighting at Bebop. She admitted hitting a policeman, one of several who had surrounded her boyfriend.

Carly and her earlier Thai boyfriend, Nui, were arrested for fighting at Be-Bop, taken to the Pai police station, tested for drugs and released without charge. There were at least a dozen witnesses to the arrest in front of Be-Bop, and non-police witnesses at the police station also reported seeing them brought in that night.

[brahmburgers]

I realise that not many people have probably read every post in this thread, but some might want to go back to the beginning and re-read the early stuff.

Your summary of reports is a must read. Unfortunately, for those that have existing biases towards the Thai police, both legitimate and illegitimate, will not understand. They will look and search for "facts" that will support their respective biased positions. I note that for many of those of us that would prefer to await the investigation results, without joining in the mob's bloodlust for revenge, that we are accused of being apologists for existing problems with the various Thai police units. We are not. On the contrary, the positions of those saying, hey look at all the statements, consider the people involved, let's get all the facts before condemning, are the ones that have an understanding of the concept of justice that those in the mad dash for a lynching don't have.

methinks one way or another, Carly won't testify - which is what the cops are shooting for (pun intended).

She's either left or is about to leave the country - if she wants to stay alive. Probably offered some undercover payment and told to leave for her own good. It's also v. doubtful whether the Thai 'boyfriend' will show up at a trial.

Any Thai witnesses will know what to do: toe the policeman's line or, if they can get away with it, say they saw and heard too little to be of use.

With no real witnesses at trial, and no one to officially challenge the rogue cop's contrived story, the cop will get off relatively painlessly.

He'll get away with murder, Thai tourism and the reputation of Thai cops suffer slight setbacks, and all will soon return to 'normal' when the next string of attrocities grab the publics' attention, and this story becomes a reference to lively conversations - much as the double murder in Kanchanaburi not long ago.

[Khun ?]

Moral of it all is don't get into drunken arguments/fights frequently in the middle of drugland and try to remove a weapon from someone. Two wrongs will never end up right!

Mike Tyson has face tattoos also, the whole sitution looked and sounds like a real freak show.

Edited January 27, 2008 by Khun ?

[Claymore]

methinks one way or another, Carly won't testify - which is what the cops are shooting for (pun intended).

She's either left or is about to leave the country - if she wants to stay alive. Probably offered some undercover payment and told to leave for her own good. It's also v. doubtful whether the Thai 'boyfriend' will show up at a trial.

Any Thai witnesses will know what to do: toe the policeman's line or, if they can get away with it, say they saw and heard too little to be of use.

With no real witnesses at trial, and no one to officially challenge the rogue cop's contrived story, the cop will get off relatively painlessly.

He'll get away with murder, Thai tourism and the reputation of Thai cops suffer slight setbacks, and all will soon return to 'normal' when the next string of attrocities grab the publics' attention, and this story becomes a reference to lively conversations - much as the double murder in Kanchanaburi not long ago.

Cynical and probably right in normal circumstances. But Carly Reisig will certainly give evidence, and has not left the country, and will not do unless she is certain her evidence will be taken.

The policeman in Kan was convicted.

[Claymore]

Carly and her earlier Thai boyfriend, Nui, were arrested for fighting at Be-Bop, taken to the Pai police station, tested for drugs and released without charge. There were at least a dozen witnesses to the arrest in front of Be-Bop, and non-police witnesses at the police station also reported seeing them brought in that night.

I dont want to appear pedantic but Carly Reisig was not arrested for fighting. Although there was certainly a fracas at Bebop involving her, her boyfriend and an Israeli tourist after which she admits hitting a policeman. She was indeed taken for drug testing and the result was negative.

I first went to Pai in 1986. The last time was two years ago. Its now on my places in Thailand to miss list, which seems to be growing.

There is also the story going the rounds there that Carly was told to leave town. By whom - the local Sheriff - or some punter in a bar.

Something a bit wild west there now it seems.

[jenniferjuniper]

"Not really, at least not until there's a global court system. if you mean this tragedy should be covered in international media, it is, albeit to a steadily diminishing degree, as happens with crime anywhere in the world."

No, I was responding to your earlier comment that it didn't matter who was "right" or "wrong" on a global sense. It does matter when people from an international sphere have to face off with Thailand's legal/judiciary system, and more people are watching.

True, and all the more reason it's important to view the entire context for the tragedy. This goes back to what I tried to point out earlier, i.e., if one acknowledges that the Thai law enforcement and judicial systems are corrupt, and justice cannot be had, then you must acknowledge that any verbal or physical affront to individuals who are part of that system is very, very risky.

Yeah, good point and adding insult to injury is seeing people who should know better on this forum going along with the rubbish the cops are peddling as if anything they, or their phoney witnesses, said had any merit whatsoever. All this analysing about what has been reported in the press as if the ' answer ' could be extracted is just so foolish and if anything all helps to smokescreen the bad guy's exit.

As I said before( ) justice in this country is something you stick in your drink.