Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[thaigene2]

Apparently some people are not really aware of what the Canadian Government or it's Embassy in Thailand responsibilities are in cases like this...

Wow - long post there KerryD - seems you have a bit of time on your hands in Afghanistan! (Hope you're not sitting there writing this on the company's big consultancy daily rate for shit-holes..ahem.

As for your content - forget the girl in the hospital, what I'm talking about is the Embassy's, and indeed Foreign Affairs in Ottawa's, SILENCE on the MURDER BY A THAI POLICEMAN IN COLD BLOOD OF ONE OF THEIR CITIZEN's IN THAILAND and the attempted murder of another - then let out on bail.

They screamed to high heaven when some well-healed "Persian" Canadian journalist was killed in Iran. Why aren't they screaming now? Like I said before, is it because they think these two 'western' Canadians are just nobody's?

[CarlBkk]

Although the Canadian Embassy DID have enough time to write a letter of condolence to be printed in the Bangkok post today. For the Princess.

[jumnien]

If a Thai man with freaky long hair with a thai girlfriend with tatooed balls orbiting her eyes had hit a cop and generally been disrespectful and subsequently shot in Vancouver, I doubt the Thai ambassador would be ranting in Ottawa for a complete dismantling of the Canadian law enforcement system. Why is that these North Americans come to Thailand and think they own the place? Pitiful and incomprehensible arrogance.

[thaigene2]

Although the Canadian Embassy DID have enough time to write a letter of condolence to be printed in the Bangkok post today. For the Princess.

I rest my case, mon ami. Ce ca, merci.

[kat]

... It's dangerous to offer a generalisation like this without having knowledge of the specifics. Daeng's is a roadside place with a cooking cart and a few tables. At that hour of the night - post-Bebop closing - it's pretty common to have to stand in line to get your food.

Your right it is a generalization, but it was one offered up by the initial stories by not specifying that it was a roadside place with a cooking cart on the street. The term "restaurant" *in this case is a generalization*, and conjures up a completely different image, especially for people who do not live in Thailand. It is also an important detail from a vantage point to the scene and for an idea of how long that cop could've been at the restaurant and off-duty. I think *his account that he was standing in line* also conflicts with another local account that he was sitting there drinking for awhile, but I can't be bothered to go back and find the post right now.

...And lest we forget, Feun had already been arrested and convicted of drug use and possession in Pai a few months ago, and is well known to the police.

No, I haven't forgotten, but I am not talking about a prior charge that pretty much allowed him free reign to the street, I am talking about new charges and changes to the police story that the was involved in the tussle with Uthai in this case. But to be honest, it doesn't really matter which one it is, because if the Thai government doesn't want him to leave the country, he won't under any circumstances, full stop.

*added

[thaigene2]

If a Thai man with freaky long hair with a thai girlfriend with tatooed balls orbiting her eyes had hit a cop and generally been disrespectful and subsequently shot in Vancouver, I doubt the Thai ambassador would be ranting in Ottawa for a complete dismantling of the Canadian law enforcement system. Why is that these North Americans come to Thailand and think they own the place? Pitiful and incomprehensible arrogance.

Polish Embassy certainly did when those four idiot RCMP cops tasered that unarmed guy to death at the vancouver airport, because he couldn't speak English and was 'agitated'. And the Polish Ambassador complained publicly and rightfully bloody so..Canada has no balls. If it did it would complain - publicly too - about this Thai episode. Shameful - it really is

[kat]

quote Arkady:

"We have to accept that the country does not have rule of law and we are only one step from the bottom of the pile when it comes to respect for our rights. Accepting this is a trade off as to how much you like living here and what benefits you get. Refusing to acknowledge you are making this trade off is naive.

Foreigners cannot change this situation."

I couldn't agree with you more Arkady, but I am not as optimistic as you in how and if it can change.

[mikethevigoman]

Claymore, I am flattered...

Then of course the police can charge the thai boyfriend and her and refuse bail !

[mikethevigoman]

...Polish Embassy...

I find Canada a bit like Switzerland, neutral, and dosent want to upset any one !

[yorkman]

If a Thai man with freaky long hair with a thai girlfriend with tatooed balls orbiting her eyes had hit a cop and generally been disrespectful and subsequently shot in Vancouver, I doubt the Thai ambassador would be ranting in Ottawa for a complete dismantling of the Canadian law enforcement system. Why is that these North Americans come to Thailand and think they own the place? Pitiful and incomprehensible arrogance.

You forgot to add both drunk too.....and they got involved with a drunken person with a gun.

The outcome is almost inevitable, anywhere.

Nobody deserves to die for stupidity, but this is yet another case of Darwin's Theory of Evolution happening in real time.

Sorry, zero sympathy and I won't apologise for that. Thailand or anywhere else in the world really does not need them.

[plachon]

...Sorry, zero sympathy and I won't apologise for that. Thailand or anywhere else in the world really does not need them.

Seems like you'd condone cops in any country being empowered to go into bars and public places doing a bit of "ethnic cleansing" of anyone who doesn't quite fit into your own personal view of a "good" person. So it's a crime to be drunk these days it seems. Or have long hair or tattoos in public. How about a Bin Laden beard - that get your goatee too? Hope you never happen to accidentally cross a Thai cop on a bad day!

[jumnien]

We are not condoning the behavior of Thai policemen any more than we are condoning the number of potholes on the sidewalks or the fact that motorcycles use the sidewalks. We are just saying that things are the way things are. There is a way to walk down the sidewalk with out killing yourself or getting killed. Mindfulness, courtesy, kindness, deference and humility will serve you well here. Very well!

[gregybn]

Latest from Canadian press... Interesting "reenactment" ... still raises many questions????

Suspect re-enacts shooting of 2 Canadians

From Friday's Globe and Mail

PAI, THAILAND — In a bizarre crime re-enactment, police officials in northern Thailand gave murder suspect Uthai Dechawiwat a plastic revolver to demonstrate how he was defending himself when he fatally shot Leo John Del Pinto and wounded Carly Reisig last Sunday.

Standing on the dusty road, in front of the Ting Tong reggae bar in the northern town of Pai, Mr. Dechawiwat acted out a struggle with two fellow officers, who were stand-ins for Mr. Del Pinto of Calgary and Ms. Reisig of Chilliwack, B.C., both 24 years old.

It was a clumsy affair and several of the officers laughed nervously while trying to re-enact the crime over a blood-stained section of the road. Mr. Dechawiwat was sweating profusely and appeared confused as officials ordered him to repeat several parts of the re-enactment.

It's customary in Thailand to reconstruct the crime scene of high-profile cases for the media. In this instance, there were just two members of the international press present.

The officer maintains that the shootings were accidental and he was simply responding to a food vendor's request to investigate a domestic disturbance she heard near her restaurant. Ms. Reisig says she was the victim of an unprovoked attack that began when she was punched in the face and ended with Mr. Del Pinto, who tried to defend her, shot dead in the street and her in hospital recovering from a bullet wound in the chest.

Owner Saijai Gawin, who operates the late-night Pea Dang eatery, said Mr. Dechawiwat was picking up a take-home food order at her roadside stand when the commotion occurred nearby.

Mr. Dechawiwat told Ms. Gawin he had just finished a police shift at a border post 40 kilometres away. However, bartender Jarupong Sintop, who was serving cocktails at the outdoor counter at the nearby Bebop bar, says he saw the officer drinking beer at the bar earlier in the evening.

"I saw the policeman come into the bar around 10 o'clock and he appeared drunk. He kept asking me the same questions over and over again so I told him I was busy and ignored him," the 22-year-old explained.

Mr. Sintop finished work just before 1 a.m. and says he saw Mr. Dechawiwat again, this time drinking at the Don't Cry bar where Mr. Sintop had gone for last call.

The bars are within walking distance of the Bebop, where Ms. Reisig and Mr. Del Pinto, a former boyfriend, last drank.

Many aspiring musicians and weekend jammers congregate at the lively roadhouse, including 19-year-old Matt Ward, who arrived in Thailand last October for a holiday.

The Winnipeg native remembers passing Mr. Del Pinto and Ms. Reisig on his way home. "I couldn't believe in such a peaceful quiet, music-loving town like Pai, that something like this could happen."

Many patrons of the Bebop, as well as the nearby bars, described Ms. Reisig as speaking loudly and in an aggressive manner. But as one expat Swedish musician, who didn't give his name, commented, "Carly didn't fit in here in Pai with her hostile attitude, but nobody deserves what happened to her and John."

In contrast, Mr. Del Pinto was praised by most people in the community for his peaceful attitude and respect for the Thais. Guitarist Pu Ekkarat, who befriended Mr. Del Pinto just before the new year during a music session at the Bebop, was shocked by the news of the shooting.

"First of all, they should train the police how to control their temper and use their heart before they make any decisions," the 33-year-old said. "Too often they use violence to stop a problem."

Pai police chief Wanchai Suwansirikhet said he expects the investigation to be completed this month. Regarding criticism of excessive force used by Mr. Dechawiwat, the chief responded that he would have to wait until the forensic report is finished before commenting.

"We have temporarily transferred the suspect to work outside Pai district," the chief said. "We don't want his case to affect tourism in [the] area."

However, after the crime re-enactment, the accused returned to the police headquarters about 30 metres away, where he is purportedly still working.

[Galong]

The victim.

Um, so where's the bodybuilder? Th e guy in this photo doesn't look like one.

[grantbkk]

From Sunday's (13 Jan) Letters to the Editor of The Nation

LETTERS TO THE EDITOR

Facts reported in Canadian shooting story used to malign survivor

Last week The Nation newspaper published an account by myself in the aftermath of the shooting of two young Canadians in Chiang Mai. Published on January 13, 2008

This article included some of the history of Carly Reisig during her stay in Mae Hong Son's Pai district.

This included the facts that she had hit a policeman in the past and had also been involved in some other fracas.

I included those facts because in the Thai context they could be relevant. I also had to ensure the story was even-handed. I was writing on the basis that Carly Reisig would be given a fair and level playing field.

I now of course realise that despite an extensive background covering similar cases in Thailand I was being rather optimistic, perhaps even naive.

While the facts presented were true, they have been wrongly taken in a malicious way by many, including "long-term resident expert foreigners", as a reason to justify the attack on the two young Canadians.

As a journalist one is compelled to give both sides of the story. So I also included statements from witnesses interviewed by a colleague, who claimed Reisig started the fight.

What the journalist cannot convey sometimes is his opinion of whether the witnesses are telling the truth or show immediately what links these witnesses have to the police.

I am reminded that no witnesses would go to court and testify that they saw Police Sergeant Somchai Wisetsingh shoot two British tourists dead in 2004. I am also reminded of the vicious stories put about concerning Vanessa Arscott.

I am very concerned at several aspects of this case:

1) The police claiming that Reisig was pregnant and this had angered a jealous foreign boyfriend.

2) The claims by the police shooter that he had been out of town before the shooting, when other witnesses were saying the officer was drinking heavily that night in Pai.

3) The threats to prosecute Reisig for assault on police.

4) The automatic bail for the police gunman.

5) The fact that local police are investigating themselves.

6) The claims that the gun had discharged three times accidentally.

Reisig has not asked me to apologise, nor would she, but I would like to tell Carly publicly that, having seen how this case is progressing, I am sorry for including facts which are being used against her and which after all have not helped her in what will by a very trying battle to come and which certainly do not give anyone justification for these atrocious shootings.

Andrew Drummond

Bangkok

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand? Unless it was his first day he know full well where his story was going and the controversy in would cause.

[Claymore]

From Sunday's (13 Jan) Letters to the Editor of The Nation

LETTERS TO THE EDITOR

Facts reported in Canadian shooting story used to malign survivor

Last week The Nation newspaper published an account by myself in the aftermath of the shooting of two young Canadians in Chiang Mai. Published on January 13, 2008

This article included some of the history of Carly Reisig during her stay in Mae Hong Son's Pai district.

This included the facts that she had hit a policeman in the past and had also been involved in some other fracas.

I included those facts because in the Thai context they could be relevant. I also had to ensure the story was even-handed. I was writing on the basis that Carly Reisig would be given a fair and level playing field.

I now of course realise that despite an extensive background covering similar cases in Thailand I was being rather optimistic, perhaps even naive.

While the facts presented were true, they have been wrongly taken in a malicious way by many, including "long-term resident expert foreigners", as a reason to justify the attack on the two young Canadians.

As a journalist one is compelled to give both sides of the story. So I also included statements from witnesses interviewed by a colleague, who claimed Reisig started the fight.

What the journalist cannot convey sometimes is his opinion of whether the witnesses are telling the truth or show immediately what links these witnesses have to the police.

I am reminded that no witnesses would go to court and testify that they saw Police Sergeant Somchai Wisetsingh shoot two British tourists dead in 2004. I am also reminded of the vicious stories put about concerning Vanessa Arscott.

I am very concerned at several aspects of this case:

1) The police claiming that Reisig was pregnant and this had angered a jealous foreign boyfriend.

2) The claims by the police shooter that he had been out of town before the shooting, when other witnesses were saying the officer was drinking heavily that night in Pai.

3) The threats to prosecute Reisig for assault on police.

4) The automatic bail for the police gunman.

5) The fact that local police are investigating themselves.

6) The claims that the gun had discharged three times accidentally.

Reisig has not asked me to apologise, nor would she, but I would like to tell Carly publicly that, having seen how this case is progressing, I am sorry for including facts which are being used against her and which after all have not helped her in what will by a very trying battle to come and which certainly do not give anyone justification for these atrocious shootings.

Andrew Drummond

Bangkok

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand? Unless it was his first day he know full well where his story was going and the controversy in would cause.

Reading between the lines here its pretty obvious that Andrew Drummond has found some pretty significant stuff about the prosecution which he cant yet use.

He has restated that what he said about Carly was true - but regrets the the way it was interpreted perhaps on a website, perhaps here.

This today from CalgaryBody of slain Canadian back in Calgary - family still looking for answers

6 hours ago

CALGARY - Ernie Del Pinto sat quietly Saturday, his head bowed as he lovingly ran his fingers over a picture of his son Leo, who was shot and killed in an altercation with a police officer in Thailand earlier this month.

As he looked down, he wiped away the occasional tear. His chair was next to a shrine set up in his home for his son in a quiet neighbourhood in northwest Calgary.

A table was overflowing with dozens of flowers from friends, family and well-wishers as several pictures of his son's smiling face looked out. Leo John Del Pinto's backpack, emblazoned with two large Canadian flags, was the latest addition, having been returned home Saturday along with his body.

"It was shock and now it moves to the reality now that his remains are here," said Del Pinto's brother-in-law, Ross Fortune.

"I don't think anything is going to get better for him for a long time," he said nodding toward his father-in-law. "Today's the worst I've seen him and it's not even lunch yet. There's a hole in his heart and it won't be filled, ever."

Del Pinto's family believes he was shot at point-blank range while defending his friend Carly Reisig of Chilliwack, B.C., after a man punched her in the head in the northern Thai town of Pai.

A Thai police officer has been charged with premeditated murder in the shooting death of Del Pinto, who was 24, and with "intent to kill" in the wounding of Reisig.

But the officer was released on bail less than a day after Del Pinto's death.

Reisig, who also shot in the chest during the altercation and is recovering in a Thai hospital, has said she is worried about her safety and that of her Thai boyfriend, who also witnessed the shootings.

It's the biggest fear of the Del Pinto family that the officer, who is reportedly taking part in the investigation, will not face justice.

"That's my number one fear and it already appears to be the direction that it's moving," said Fortune. "That's why we've been very much in the face of our government. I think it's a disgrace we've had to be the ones to approach our government."

The family has enlisted the assistance of lawyer Adriano Iovinelli in an attempt to get answers.

It's an "embarrassment" how Foreign Affairs has handled the case, he said, and noted there weren't any efforts made by the government until pressure mounted in the media.

"They believe without the media coverage that this matter will be put on a back burner and forgotten in a week or two weeks," said Iovinelli. "It would be just another unfortunate Canadian tourist that was killed abroad. That's what they're afraid of."

There is some reason for optimism, he said. Foreign Affairs hasn't given a lot of information, but the department does have someone on the ground in Thailand looking into the case.

"It is a member from Foreign Affairs that is participating in the investigation. But the family isn't aware of even simple things, like the accused's next court appearance. They're completely in the dark and it's a shame that the family has to probe these questions," Iovinelli said. "It's a disgrace."

The only contact from Foreign Affairs has been through e-mails to a family friend. Marie-Pierre Martel writes that Foreign Affairs Minister Helena Guergis has sent a letter to her Thai counterpart.

"Saying that Canadians are concerned for their safety in Thailand and it is important for the Government of Canada to be able to assure its citizens that a thorough and transparent investigation will be conducted into the shooting," reads the e-mail.

The Calgary medical examiner is expected to conduct an autopsy on Del Pinto on Monday and the family is hoping to hold a funeral and memorial Wednesday or Thursday.

"It's a nightmare," said Fortune. "The reality sets in and you realize you have to lay your brother-in-law to rest. Today is the tip of the iceberg

[Claymore]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

[grantbkk]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Perhaps, however some people over the past few days feel that he was sensationalizing the case and now he wants to let everyone know that he is contrite.

Edited January 13, 2008 by grantbkk

[thaigene2]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Exactly.

As for the story about the Canadian guy's father and his lack of information from the Foreign Affairs Ministry in Ottawa, Canada, I'm hardly surprised. Probably none of them can speak English..they're all french aren't they - and they probably don't care what happend outside of Ontario and Quebec anyway - since it was just 'backpacker' from Alberta?

[DamianMavis]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Perhaps, however some people over the past few days feel that he was sensationalizing the case and now he wants to let everyone know that he is contrite.

Sensasionalised how exactly? Give me examples from his article please. The case IS sensational enough all on its own, I dont think he added to that personally but prove me wrong.

Damian

[Canadianvisitor]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Exactly.

As for the story about the Canadian guy's father and his lack of information from the Foreign Affairs Ministry in Ottawa, Canada, I'm hardly surprised. Probably none of them can speak English..they're all french aren't they - and they probably don't care what happend outside of Ontario and Quebec anyway - since it was just 'backpacker' from Alberta?

Dear Friend,

I am angered by your comments and would say nasty things about your character but what would that do?

You should really only comment on the things you know about.

You are a fool. And for that I feel sorry for you.

A young man is dead, It sure sounds to me like a murder. Plain and simple.

Please refrain from ignorant comments about something you know nothing about.

I am from Ontario and there is NEVER a bad word spoken about anyone from ANY other province in this country,

we are not like that.

The fact that our government seems to have done nothing does not surprise me, I didn't vote for them.

Other than that I would politely like to ask you to refrain from slandering anyone, Canadian or otherwise,

from behind your computer screen.

A young man is dead, his girl has been shot twice at point blank range and had a pretty mean punch to the face,

one life is over, many other lives in their families have been ruined and changed forever.

They were young people in love walking on a street in some far off land living their dreams, one shot dead,

one shot twice by a drunk public official.

Please do keep your political opinions to where they belong and have some respect for the dead

and some decency in your comments.

Enough said.

Kindly,

Jeff

Edited January 13, 2008 by Canadianvisitor

[grantbkk]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Perhaps, however some people over the past few days feel that he was sensationalizing the case and now he wants to let everyone know that he is contrite.

Sensasionalised how exactly? Give me examples from his article please. The case IS sensational enough all on its own, I dont think he added to that personally but prove me wrong.

Damian

First you have to dial back on the Red Bull. Your 20 almost confrontations seem plausible now. Some of the 900 plus posters here mentioned sensationalism in some of Andrew Drummond's past body of work. Some questioned his motives and facts in this particular case. I was not one of the posters accusing him of sensationalism I questioned why is he now contrite and regrets imparting the facts through his article in The Nation. He may be eluding to this website in his letter to The Nation today. As for a an example of sensationalism let me refer you to a photo on his website: www.andrew-drummond.com/2008/01/10/canadian-backpacker-admits-she-had-hit-thai-policeman/ that is posted with each article about this case. It is the back of a subject wearing a shirt proclaiming, "Better to Lie Than to Die". Why is it there at all because there is no explanation? Is he somehow telling us he is lying or is he saying we should lie to protect ourselves? Or maybe he says everyone is lying? Perhaps he is joining the growing ranks of shirt vendors?

Six years full time, out everyday in Bangkok and zero confrontations with any Thais.

[Claymore]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Perhaps, however some people over the past few days feel that he was sensationalizing the case and now he wants to let everyone know that he is contrite.

Sensasionalised how exactly? Give me examples from his article please. The case IS sensational enough all on its own, I dont think he added to that personally but prove me wrong.

Damian

First you have to dial back on the Red Bull. Your 20 almost confrontations seem plausible now. Some of the 900 plus posters here mentioned sensationalism in some of Andrew Drummond's past body of work. Some questioned his motives and facts in this particular case. I was not one of the posters accusing him of sensationalism I questioned why is he now contrite and regrets imparting the facts through his article in The Nation. He may be eluding to this website in his letter to The Nation today. As for a an example of sensationalism let me refer you to a photo on his website: www.andrew-drummond.com/2008/01/10/canadian-backpacker-admits-she-had-hit-thai-policeman/ that is posted with each article about this case. It is the back of a subject wearing a shirt proclaiming, "Better to Lie Than to Die". Why is it there at all because there is no explanation? Is he somehow telling us he is lying or is he saying we should lie to protect ourselves? Or maybe he says everyone is lying? Perhaps he is joining the growing ranks of shirt vendors?

Six years full time, out everyday in Bangkok and zero confrontations with any Thais.

"Better to Lie than die"

Some mistake surely. That was a picture used by the Nation and taken in Pai after the murder which seems to to me to encapsulate what is happening in Pai. I think you are in the minority here and have badly missed the point. Does someone else need to spell this out? I have checked his website. Seems he has used this picture a few times now. Its almost becoming a logo for the story. If you see in the letter to the Nation he refers to witnesses, links to police etc

[Gary A]

Perhaps the Canadian government is keeping a low profile because they know things we do not know and will likely never know. For lives to be lost in such a senseless manner is truly a shame. I think for off duty police officers to be armed is a good thing. IF they plan on drinking they should NOT be permitted to carry a gun and should be prosecuted if they do. It has been VERY obvious over the years that drunks and guns are a lethal mixture.

[Claymore]

As for a an example of sensationalism let me refer you to a photo on his website: www.andrew-drummond.com/2008/01/10/canadian-backpacker-admits-she-had-hit-thai-policeman/ that is posted with each article about this case. It is the back of a subject wearing a shirt proclaiming, "Better to Lie Than to Die". Why is it there at all because there is no explanation? Is he somehow telling us he is lying or is he saying we should lie to protect ourselves? Or maybe he says everyone is lying? Perhaps he is joining the growing ranks of shirt vendors?

But in short: I would say he is saying Thais have to lie to protect themselves. I think the old Thai expression is 'Truth will never die. But if you tell it you may surely do' Anyone got the exact translation?

[Stephen Cleary]

This is the whole problem that we have been trying to get through to the more "resistant" of posters. There is NOTHING that can be done to get any other result other than what the police want, they can block all attempts at every turn. AND THIS IS THE WHOLE REASON WE COMPLAIN! There isnt even a chance that the victims (whether guilty or not of instigation themselves) can get a fair chance. The only way to get anything done with the police is to pressure them from above, if someone with power or sway over them says "do this" they will do it, otherwise they protect themselves by any means necessary

Damian

There is a constituency of posters here who seem fed up -are not prepared to take it anymore- and have found their common voice.

So band together and be the seeds of a lobby group.....'Thaivisa campaign for Justice'

Its like this how popular movements get started, whether suffragetes, Matin Luther King.

All forces for change start with a small step.

Sarcastic? I hope so. It gave me a good laugh.

Perhaps this movement could start off ala Rosa Parkes with a protest on the practice of Thai bus companies forcing you to sit in the seat indicated on your ticket.

I can just picture a big swaying group of beer-guzzling expats linking arms on Walking Street in Pattaya and singing "We Shall Overcome" in unison.

[grantbkk]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Perhaps, however some people over the past few days feel that he was sensationalizing the case and now he wants to let everyone know that he is contrite.

Sensasionalised how exactly? Give me examples from his article please. The case IS sensational enough all on its own, I dont think he added to that personally but prove me wrong.

Damian

First you have to dial back on the Red Bull. Your 20 almost confrontations seem plausible now. Some of the 900 plus posters here mentioned sensationalism in some of Andrew Drummond's past body of work. Some questioned his motives and facts in this particular case. I was not one of the posters accusing him of sensationalism I questioned why is he now contrite and regrets imparting the facts through his article in The Nation. He may be eluding to this website in his letter to The Nation today. As for a an example of sensationalism let me refer you to a photo on his website: www.andrew-drummond.com/2008/01/10/canadian-backpacker-admits-she-had-hit-thai-policeman/ that is posted with each article about this case. It is the back of a subject wearing a shirt proclaiming, "Better to Lie Than to Die". Why is it there at all because there is no explanation? Is he somehow telling us he is lying or is he saying we should lie to protect ourselves? Or maybe he says everyone is lying? Perhaps he is joining the growing ranks of shirt vendors?

Six years full time, out everyday in Bangkok and zero confrontations with any Thais.

"Better to Lie than die"

Some mistake surely. That was a picture used by the Nation and taken in Pai after the murder which seems to to me to encapsulate what is happening in Pai. I think you are in the minority here and have badly missed the point. Does someone else need to spell this out? I have checked his website. Seems he has used this picture a few times now. Its almost becoming a logo for the story. If you see in the letter to the Nation he refers to witnesses, links to police etc

I did read the Andy Drummond's letter to The Nation this morning before I posted it on this thread. Whose mistake could this be? What kind of a mantra is "BETTER TO LIE THAN TO DIE"? To use it in this context will further polarize interested or affected groups. It serves no other purpose other than inflame all sides.

[BarryMan]

I'm pleased to see that some people on here, not the majority of course, but some, felt the same way I did when reading Drummond's letter to the Nation today. To whit:

Carly Reisig has a history of getting drunk and violent with police. HOW IN THE hel_l is that not totally relevant to this case involving an altercation with a cop, while she was drunk.

As for earlier posters who basically said I was making up facts about the case, two points:

Reisig's version of events did change. She started with her initial story about how she was skipping down the road with facepaint and enjoying herself only to be randomly assaulted by a policeman, which was clearly enough stated. Then she went on to say that she didn't really remember what happened, or that her memories were "vague". Both of these accounts were reported by Drummond.

If this was a cold-blooded killing, which it may well have been, her changing versions of events does matter. Had she told one consistent story from the start we would a solid place from which to start to find out the truth. By being inconsistent she has harmed the investigation into this case and she owes the family of the deceased an apology.

I used to respect Drummond for "going where others dared not", now I do not. He has not reported on this story fairly, but rather decided from jump that this was Kanchanaburi all over again, before looking into anything about the case at all. That he would later send in a letter to the editor and apologize publicly for reporting on relevant facts shows the type of journalist we're dealing with here. Drummond, as a professional journalist and self-proclaimed expert, should know better than to dismiss eyewitness accounts (if the people in Pai are in fear of the police, why have people come forward to say that the officer was drunk that night? Doesn't wash, but in Drummond's world, all Thais conspire against foreigners: a sentiment that is lapped up on this forum with relish, though thankfully not by everyone).

I wish the Post had someone reliable on this one. The reports I've read from them have seemed more balanced, but they have been few and far between. Having Drummond as the only local option for this story is worrying.

[jackr]

After reading this thread with interest, I would like to add a few comments. One can easily spot from the replies in this thread the people that may have been to Thailand on holiday, to those people that have been living in this country for some time. The 'holiday' posters are viewing this 'act' with their western values, nothing wrong in that at all, however many Thai's have no interest or understanding of western values. No matter how angry it will make people, the facts in this case will be what the Thai Police say they will be, why let the truth get in the way of an incident that the Thai's will want to brush under the carpet as soon as possible. Some posters have asked the question of what was the motive or reasoning behind the off duty Police Officer approaching the couple in the first instance. Those of you that have lived here for some time will understand what I am about to say, others will find this difficult to understand. Most Thai's do not make a decision based on reason or the facts presented before them, they will make a decision based on their feelings, this is why the Police Officer will not admit any guilt or that he had done any wrong, because how could his feelings be wrong! Many Thai's will only ever feel 'shame' when they have been seen to lose 'face' amongst their peers, they will never feel guilt or admit any responsibility, due to the fact that they carried out the act based on their feelings, and again, how can your feelings be wrong? I do not condone what happened, I am just trying to explain to some posters that the difference in western and Thai culture is so very deep, that unless you are Thai, no matter how many years you live here, you will never truly understand the Thai mindset. With that said, and hoping that I have not caused any ill feeling to any reader, the out come of this case, as always, will be a positive result for the Police Officer, and anger, and none understanding to every one else.

Nice post but lets not forget said cop was allegedly pissed which no doubt clouded his 'feelings' .

<snip>

It took 799 posts to get it right. I agree with the crux of what you're saying. Because it's so hard to understand the Thai way of thinking (at times) I tend to only associate with a few Thai friends of high morals and my falang friends. I avoid the Thai police when possible. Imagine making friends with a Thai cop and one day he asks for a favor. What if it's something you don't want to do.......how would you feel.......what would you think......would you say no?

This is a case of a small man with a gun who was embarrassed; in his mind at the time the only thing to do was retaliate and restore face.

Totally disagree.

'Thai Culture', 'Thai Mindset' and 'Thai Way of Thinking' are merely excuses for the Thais laziness, refusal to act in an adult manner, their inability to take responsibility for their actions and many of their other failings as a society, culturally and as a country.

It is time they stopped shirking and started to grow up as a nation and act as responsible individuals.

Another quality post!!

If a Thai man with freaky long hair with a thai girlfriend with tatooed balls orbiting her eyes had hit a cop and generally been disrespectful and subsequently shot in Vancouver, I doubt the Thai ambassador would be ranting in Ottawa for a complete dismantling of the Canadian law enforcement system. Why is that these North Americans come to Thailand and think they own the place? Pitiful and incomprehensible arrogance.

You forgot to add both drunk too.....and they got involved with a drunken person with a gun.

The outcome is almost inevitable, anywhere.

Nobody deserves to die for stupidity, but this is yet another case of Darwin's Theory of Evolution happening in real time.

Sorry, zero sympathy and I won't apologise for that. Thailand or anywhere else in the world really does not need them.

Substitute 'them' for 'no-sense-no-feeling androids' and 'murderous pigs' as opposed to a couple of harmless hippies, then you're bang on pal.

Nice touch with the smiley btw Perhaps you would have left it out if he was your kid.

Weren't you similarly zoned-out on a recent thread about the charitable guy from the USA? If so, what a nice person you are.

Apologies for the French mods, but far too many smug bastards on this forum today. A similar scenario could easily happen to any of us. Dodgy, drunk, bent, trigger-happy cop in a restaurant takes a liking to your missus and doesn't like farangs, or perhaps you accidentally look at the guy the wrong way... things could escalate without too much provocation on your part. Yes, we can go home, but that's not the point.

[DamianMavis]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Perhaps, however some people over the past few days feel that he was sensationalizing the case and now he wants to let everyone know that he is contrite.

Sensasionalised how exactly? Give me examples from his article please. The case IS sensational enough all on its own, I dont think he added to that personally but prove me wrong.

Damian

First you have to dial back on the Red Bull. Your 20 almost confrontations seem plausible now. Some of the 900 plus posters here mentioned sensationalism in some of Andrew Drummond's past body of work. Some questioned his motives and facts in this particular case. I was not one of the posters accusing him of sensationalism I questioned why is he now contrite and regrets imparting the facts through his article in The Nation. He may be eluding to this website in his letter to The Nation today. As for a an example of sensationalism let me refer you to a photo on his website: www.andrew-drummond.com/2008/01/10/canadian-backpacker-admits-she-had-hit-thai-policeman/ that is posted with each article about this case. It is the back of a subject wearing a shirt proclaiming, "Better to Lie Than to Die". Why is it there at all because there is no explanation? Is he somehow telling us he is lying or is he saying we should lie to protect ourselves? Or maybe he says everyone is lying? Perhaps he is joining the growing ranks of shirt vendors?

Six years full time, out everyday in Bangkok and zero confrontations with any Thais.

Whoa easy, I was serious about wanting to know what was sensationalised. If Im wrong about something I want someone to explain it to me but from everything Ive seen he was just telling the story, which is quite crazy all on its own. No need to infer I am antagonistic and attacking you. TO BE CLEAR: since people never seem to understand a dang thing Im saying... when I say Ive been in 20 situations where things could have gone bad if I had been drunk, most of them are as simple as this example:

Standing waiting for a taxi near kaosan road with a few friends, one angry young Thai man comes right up to me shouting "YOU BAD MAN, YOU THAT GUY!" (I know full well I am NOT "that guy" as I have had no interaction with anyone outside my group, not even a female, I came to meet friends for dinner and then was leaving) He is getting cloer and closer and looking like he might get physical. So what do I do? I SMILE and I keep smiling. I pretend I dont even know what he is talking about and just keep smiling sweetly at him. I casually look around and sure enough: there is a group of Thai men peeking around the corner 100 meters away, they keep checking to see if I get into it with their friend, so I just keep smiling and he calms down and backs away and I get into my taxi. That's it. I could be wrong but the situation felt like the friends were going to jump in as soon as the instigator started something with ANYONE.

Another example would be the few times a Thai man bumped into ME at a bar and started to get angry, I just smiled them away. If I was drunk perhaps I would have gotten angry and escalated the situation?

Damian