Scared Me

[francois]

hi'

I don't go to a bar to "blow off steam". Did that when I was a kid, but have since grown up.

Meet interesting people?

Geesh, just about anywhere. Part of the reason I came to Thailand is that I find people so very familiar and yet so very different (sometimes frustratingly so). Though I have gotten over my "newbie" phase where I'd strike up a conversation with every street vendor and taxi driver I met, because those conversations are usually a boring repetition of the same five questions. Nowadays I stick to chatting with interesting people I meet through work and friends.

Get laid?

At home. Where else?

The fact that you're a grown man and you still need to "go out" to get laid is PATHETIC. Teenagers and twenty-something losers do that, but by now you should have dropped the adjective from "young adult" and figured out that it's better to spend a lifetime with one decent woman, than spend a lifetime trolling bars.

Speaking of which, why is this guy going to Nana if he has a wife? And don't give me any "for the atmosphere" crap. That's a line of horsesh-t and everyone knows it.

A married man should be at home keeping his wife happy or going out with his wife and keeping her happy. A married man should not be "going solo" to go-go bars.

It's bad karma, and from the looks of it, karma has already bitten him on the ass. He should take the hint, grow up, and STAY HOME with his WIFE.

Then he wouldn't have to worry about somebody spiking his drinks, would he?

so sure of yourself ... might willing to be an example?

some behaves right even going alone in such place!

I remember to go out with some Thai friends, and all was for fun...

looking is not going further than this.

And what kind of conversations are you going to have? How interesting is it to talk to bargirl #175 about the same things you talked to bargirl #174 the night before?? How interesting is it to talk to ex-pat #401 about the same tired culture-shock stories you heard from ex-pats #400 and #399???

intersting or not, is a matter of person, some like to meet people, for any kind of reason, it sems that it's not your thing ... good for you!

why blame people because they don't think like you?

isn't a bit selfish?

Sounds really boring to me.

I just wonder what's the most boring?

might be you with your straight opinions and judgement!

who is pathetic?

are you sure you got over your newbie time?

francois

ps; member since August and flaming others like this is not really the right way to make friends in here

I hope that you feel alright alone

Edited September 8, 2004 by francois

[bkkmadness]

QUOTE 

And if all farang start going to your places like Rachada soi 4, won't those areas also become tourist areas with that "social fringe industry" soon following them? 

Why is that necessarily true?

It's not necessarily true, just a hypothetical question, stating that it might happen and then what? I notice a lot of bargirls already hanging around in the Rachada area, places like Hollywoods and The seafood restaurant (I will not attempt to spell the name, ok, I will, Por Kung Pow?) so with the influx of more tourists in these areas perhaps the tourist related crime could follow these areas too? Not to unreasonable to assume I think.

Its not that hard. Nor is it impossible to find relatively "safe" places to go in Eurotown. Nana and Khao San aren't the only tourist options available, and certainly not the only places to find a drink.

I think there are plenty of places in Khao San that are relatively "safe" to drink in, and quite a few thai clubs that are not frequented by people that want to rob tourists ie. the Club, Lava, Austins, Susies, Buddy Lodge. My point is in ANY farang area or bars this kind of thing could happen to you and you cannot totally avoid it. I do agree Nana is dodgy and if you don't have the street smarts then perhaps this area is best avoided, some people know this, some people come here and don't know this. A backpacker coming to Thailand for the first time is going to consider Khao San a pretty safe place to stay and drink in Bangkok, and yet there are plenty oif dangers around this area they will be ignorant too, you cannot blame them for this ignorance. In these respects I do agree with you to a certain degree but I think maybe you could have worded it all a little more sensitively, considering the guy who posted originally was the victim of an upsetting crime.

Since everyone knows that Nana and Khao San are "bad areas" where "bad things happen" it seems to me that knowingly walking into a bad area isn't exactly an ideal solution to the "how do I find a good bar?"

As I wrote above, not everyone knows this. I could also add that many people would consider the tourist areas to be safer than the Thai areas. You have to remember back to the first time you came to Thailand, it's all a bit daunting, and not everybody takes a chance on the Thai clubs and probably are a bit scared of going to a club full of locals. I think you could be more open minded. Not everybody is wised up Bangkok expats like us.

Seems to me that the average tourist would be better off rolling the dice and randomly picking a Thai bar to hang out in. That way they are almost guaranteed to avoid the touts and BGs who flock to the tourist areas. And if you're looking for a safe night out, it seems prudent to avoid the people most likely to drug your drink.

I think in a lot of these places have a better time as well, and really see the culture more. I always preferred Thai bars and areas, always had a great time in them and had no problems with any people there. I have only ever had trouble in Bangkok from other farangs, usually coz they pissed up and want to fight about something. First night I come to Bangkok, I stayed Khao San, not knowing very much about Bangkok at all, went Susies, had a great time. It could have gone the other way, I might have got drugged and robbed too, but I can't be blamed for that totally because I would have assumed Khao San was as safe or as dangerous as any other part of Bangkok.

By the way, noting what frodo said about places like the Bangkpai mall not being safe, Rachada is not what could be considered a totally safe area too, massive amount of prostitution from the massage parlours, shootings (club 20), and a lot of freelancers too, I would say that social fringe element is already making it's presence felt.

[bkkmadness]

Speaking of which, why is this guy going to Nana if he has a wife? And don't give me any "for the atmosphere" crap. That's a line of horsesh-t and everyone knows it.

A married man should be at home keeping his wife happy or going out with his wife and keeping her happy. A married man should not be "going solo" to go-go bars.

By the way, this is completly the guy's business, not yours. If he wants to go Nana on his own, and is married, that's his right to do so. The only people that it concerns are him and his wife, don't make this a discussion to personally attack everything the guy does.

[britmaveric]

Nana is fine place to go! I don't think anyone should be making judgements on any particular location. It's beer bars and go go spots. Whats wrong with those spots? If you are going for a laff I don't see the harm in it.

[shemmy]

JACKR , get in line I'll pound [...]

[Rest deleted, and poster banned for 7 days. /Chanchao ]

Edited September 9, 2004 by chanchao

[jhj2000]

I’ve been going to Nana for years without having sex. I must admit that I’ve had my hair cut there a few times. Most of the bars in Bangkok offer sex in some form or other. I don’t like the go-go bars but only because the music is too loud but some of the bars in Nana are good to unwind and have a drink and a chat. Not all bar girls are Barbie Dolls some can hold a good conversation, perhaps more than your average disco punter in the west.

[RDN]

I guess you're all too young to remember Charles Sobhraj.

And to think that he's now out there somewhere.

I guess you're all too young to remember Charles Sobhraj.

Does it mean I am too old??

He was recently in the news again, still in jail, either India or Nepal, not sure anymore.

He's definitely out :

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murd...j/1.html?sect=7

[cobra]

... But anyway, second floor right hand side..  There are only 3 or so there correct?

FYI, N-Plaza, 2nd Floor, right side, about ~ eight bars,

three bars on the 3rd level, (Hollywood2, Carnival and some other), but things change all the time.

And yes, there are some bars without curtained entrances but you are correct, most are curtained.

[jhj2000]

Charles Sobhraj Where is he now? I must admit I've not seen him around Nana for a while, nor Soi Cowboy.

[Pudgimelon]

don't make this a discussion to personally attack everything the guy does.

I think you should give that same advice to the people who are attacking me.

Look, I may have an unpopular opinion, and I may seem to be coming down hard on a guy who was a "victim", but if you look at what I'm saying and what everyone else is saying, essentially we agree: Nana is a bad place, and should probably be avoided.

Now, this guy said he was a retiree, so therefore he should be old enough by now to have learned this life lesson already, but apparently he hasn't. And I don't believe in cutting adults slack for making mistakes that boys make. He should have realized by now that a seedy go-go bar in the prostitution nexus of Bangkok is not an appropriate place for a grown, married man.

Maybe on these forums, that idea is radical and unpopular, but trust me, in NORMAL society, that's a pretty mainstream notion. So if I come off a bit harsh, it's because I believe that a grown man should know better by now and if he doesn't then SOMEBODY needs to knock some sense (virtually) into him.

You guys all want to pat him on the back and say, "Aw, poor baby". Well, I don't believe in coddling grown men. And many of you want him to go back and find the place that did this too him (presumably so you can avoid it). Go back!?!? Why should he go back there!?!?!? This lesson should have taught him that he should avoid those places and stick to doing things that are appropriate for grown, married men (like hanging out with his wife).

So just because I'm the only one who's not kissing his boo-boos and encouraging more negative behavior, I get jumped on and viciously attacked by other posters.

Whatever...

[Up2U]

don't make this a discussion to personally attack everything the guy does.

I think you should give that same advice to the people who are attacking me.

No - you opened Pandora's box with your bigoted attacks on the original poster.

Live and let live should be the rule on web-sites such as this.

Expressing an opinion, whatever it may be (within reason) is OK, but personal attacks on other posters, their way of life, the fact that the OP was trying to warn other people of some of the things that are happening in the big wide world and so on is just not on.

[jhj2000]

I would have thought that the idea of a forum like this is not to attack or defend..

[camerata]

To warn others of this nasty scam, Kringle could always write a letter to the Bangkok Post about it - [email protected]. They require a name and address to show "good faith" and filter out the trolls but a pseudonym can be used to maintain anonymity.

[plachon]

don't make this a discussion to personally attack everything the guy does.

I think you should give that same advice to the people who are attacking me.

Look, I may have an unpopular opinion, and I may seem to be coming down hard on a guy who was a "victim", but if you look at what I'm saying and what everyone else is saying, essentially we agree: Nana is a bad place, and should probably be avoided.

Now, this guy said he was a retiree, so therefore he should be old enough by now to have learned this life lesson already, but apparently he hasn't. And I don't believe in cutting adults slack for making mistakes that boys make. He should have realized by now that a seedy go-go bar in the prostitution nexus of Bangkok is not an appropriate place for a grown, married man.

Maybe on these forums, that idea is radical and unpopular, but trust me, in NORMAL society, that's a pretty mainstream notion. So if I come off a bit harsh, it's because I believe that a grown man should know better by now and if he doesn't then SOMEBODY needs to knock some sense (virtually) into him.

You guys all want to pat him on the back and say, "Aw, poor baby". Well, I don't believe in coddling grown men. And many of you want him to go back and find the place that did this too him (presumably so you can avoid it). Go back!?!? Why should he go back there!?!?!? This lesson should have taught him that he should avoid those places and stick to doing things that are appropriate for grown, married men (like hanging out with his wife).

So just because I'm the only one who's not kissing his boo-boos and encouraging more negative behavior, I get jumped on and viciously attacked by other posters.

Whatever...

Look Mr Fatcanteloupe Fvuckwit, virtually nobody is agreeing with your brand of sanctomonius, self-satisfied, egocentric, half-baked, condescending, insulting crap.

The guy was a victim of a serious crime in an area of Bangkok popular with tourists and expats alike, and putting aside your ignorant, moronic assertions aside that NEP is somehow "a bad place" (probably because you got ripped off or butt raped by a bunch of katoeys there once) and you prefer being farang hero of the hour in predominantly Thai bars (bully for you boy), nobody deserves such "a life lesson". Anybody who thinks like that, "deserves" to have the same done to them, so beware your karma catching up with you one of these days.

It probably would've escaped your narrow pea brain that a few doors on from where Kringle claimed the crime occurred is the Woodstock Bar. No go-go, but good beer, music, pool, atmosphere and A1 sounds. It's been there as long as I've hung out in Bangkok and cannot be described as seedy as half the places you claim to like "out in the suburbs". Just try walking in there one day and spouting the same things you've been preaching on this thread and see who gets "some sense knocked into them".

Now either toddle along to your bridge session with your bum-chums, or apologise nicely to Kringle, before Chonabot and Tutsiwarrior get on your case.

(Sorry, but somebody had to tell this Ercoclone)

[Pudgimelon]

Look Mr Fatcanteloupe Fvuckwit, virtually nobody is agreeing with your brand of sanctomonius, self-satisfied, egocentric, half-baked, condescending, insulting crap.

Hey bkkmadness, see what I mean?

your ignorant, moronic assertions aside that NEP is somehow "a bad place"

Several other posters have said the same thing, even while flaming me.

Nana isn't Disneyland. There are a lot of criminals that hang out in there, and the Thais there aren't so "innocent" either.

Personally, I think it's quite sad that a retiree still feels the need to hit the go-go bars. What an empty and sad existence. I pity the guy, really.

or butt raped by a bunch of katoeys there once

You make that sound like it's a bad thing .

you prefer being farang hero of the hour in predominantly Thai bars

I did when I first came here, because it was kinda fun to be the center of attention. But these days I'd prefer it if people left me alone. So I go out with a group of friends or don't go out at all. That way I don't get so many random strangers pestering me.

is the Woodstock Bar. No go-go, but good beer, music, pool, atmosphere and A1 sounds.

Is it in Nana? Then it's probably stuffed full of freelancers, which makes it a prostitute-bar in my book. Just because the management doesn't own the girls, doesn't mean it's not a "professional" hang-out.

I've never been there, but if it's in Nana and has a lot of freelancers and creepy ex-pats, I'd say that's pretty "seedy".

Just try walking in there one day and spouting the same things you've been preaching on this thread and see who gets "some sense knocked into them".

Well, that settles it then. If a guy can't walk into a place of business and speak an opinion without getting physically attacked, then that's definitely a very seedy place.

Of course, I'd never set foot in that place. I have absolutely no interest in striking up a conversation with a group of potentially violent drunks.

Sorry, not my cup of tea.

or apologise nicely to Kringle

Apologize? For telling him something his mommy and daddy should have told him long ago?

I do feel sorry FOR Kringle. I feel sorry that he got drugged, attacked, and robbed. But I feel even more sorry that a grown man can't learn from an experience like that. And I feel sorry that a grown man still feels the need to surround himself with prostitutes half his age. It's truly sad to know there are people like him out there in the world. I pity him.

[Pudgimelon]

Live and let live should be the rule on web-sites such as this.

Expressing an opinion, whatever it may be (within reason) is OK, but personal attacks on other posters, their way of life, the fact that the OP was trying to warn other people of some of the things that are happening in the big wide world and so on is just not on.

Up2U, if you truly believe what you're saying, take a look at this:

Look Mr Fatcanteloupe Fvuckwit, virtually nobody is agreeing with your brand of sanctomonius, self-satisfied, egocentric, half-baked, condescending, insulting crap.

Aren't you being a little hyopcritcal by criticizing me for personal attacks, but not scolding people like plachon?

Admit it, you think it's perfectly OK for someone on YOUR SIDE of an argument to attack someone on the other side. But if the target of that attack gives some back, you start getting sanctimonious and pious.

Like I said:

Whatever....

When you start doling out your stern admonishments to the people who are attacking ME, I'll actually buy your sincerity on this point. But right now, I don't.

[Ijustwannateach]

Seems to me that Up2U is attacking your CRAP, not you personally or your way of life. No hypocrisy that *I* can see.

"Steven"

[pnustedt]

And I feel sorry that a grown man still feels the need to surround himself with prostitutes half his age.  It's truly sad to know there are people like him out there in the world.  I pity him.

Where did this come from?

[Pudgimelon]

Seems to me that Up2U is attacking your CRAP, not you personally or your way of life. No hypocrisy that *I* can see.

Well then, the same thing could be said for my original post on this thread.

I did not attack Kringle "personally". I merely pointed out that anyone foolish enough to go into Nana, deserves what they get. That's a critique of his DECISION-MAKING PROCESS, not him as a person.

I also said that he should seriously re-evaluate his priorities. How is that a "personal attack"??? You guys are a little bit over sensitive, don't you think?

But in response, I got flamed and threatened with physical assault. So who's really wrong here?

Me, for expressing an unpopular opinion?

Or everyone else who's blatantly violated the posting rules of this forum by aggressively flaming me and threatening physical assault??

If I returned a bit of flame in kind, well, I'm not the type to back down. But if you're looking for "personal attacks" in this thread, you might want to check some of the other posters before you go pointing fingers SOLELY in my direction.

[pnustedt]

So who's really wrong here?

Me, for expressing an unpopular opinion?

No - you for talking BS

[splitlid]

I do feel sorry FOR Kringle. I feel sorry that he got drugged, attacked, and robbed. But I feel even more sorry that a grown man can't learn from an experience like that. And I feel sorry that a grown man still feels the need to surround himself with prostitutes half his age. It's truly sad to know there are people like him out there in the world. I pity him.

why do you think that he hasnt learnt from this experience???

seems to me that he has.

anyway,

your actually right with everything you say Pudgi

the likes of nana, cowboy, patpong are places which attract all sorts of bad people.

but it also attracts all sorts of good people.

ive seen couples there who go just for the experience.

and ive seem the big fat germans you hate so much.

either way,

they go there for entertainment.

its what they want to do .

if people dont want to go there then they dont.

getting dun over is a fact of life everywhere you go.

it could happen to you next time you go out with your mates.

just could be a different method.

so your right,well done...

i think everyone should now agree with Pudgi

and accept his ideas as being true.

[WISteve]

I think freedom of choice is not a popular idea with our pudgy friend.

Not all of us are content with bridge and an herbal massage, pudgy. I'm happy for you that you have found a rewarding life in Thailand. But just get off everyone else's ass who doesn't happen to agree with you. You aren't convincing anyone. All you are doing is telling us over and over again that you have a closed mind and any lifestyle different than yours is wrong. That's bullshit.

Anyone (including me) who walks through the Nana entrance is aware that not all the people there are nice folks. Some people will tell you after one visit to Nana or Soi Cowboy or Pat Pong that Bangkok is full of nothing but whores, thieves and con artists. There are plenty to be found. In every corner of the world. Even Williamsburg and Martha's Vineyard (the Kennedy's have been known to frequent THAT little corner of ######). But they would not be correct to generalize about all thais or all tourists.

Come to think of it, for such a BRIGHT, CHARMING fellow who is liked by all you sure do spend an awful lot of time in front of a computer alone, throwing out pages of fluff, answering your own posts?

We all make personal decisions about our behavior and the risks we are willing to take. Get off Kringle's ass about decisions that are his and his wife's alone.

Steve

[RamdomChances]

I dont usually get involved with these "online arguments" but I'll make an exeption for you pudgy.

You are an ass#ole, kringle was just posting a warning message you seem to have no compasion or emphathy, for anyone that does not follow your way of life.

To say that anyone who goes to "nana" type bars deserves what they get is just absurd. I've only ever been there once but when I'm down in Pattaya or Phuket I do frequent the "girly" type bars, not cos i'm picking up women but because they are a good laugh.

Oh no one is atacking the plachon or Up2U for having a go at you cos you are an ass#ole, and they are'nt

[Pudgimelon]

I think freedom of choice is not a popular idea with our pudgy friend.

I could say the same thing about you and others.

Not all of us are content with bridge and an herbal massage, pudgy.  I'm happy for you that you have found a rewarding life in Thailand.  But just get off everyone else's ass who doesn't happen to agree with you.

How about you get off MY ass for not agreeing with YOU?

I happen to think going to go-go bars is a big waste of time, especially for adults who should know better.

I happen to think that walking into a seedy sh-thole like Nana is a stupid idea, and anybody who gets scammed, drugged or robbed there should have known better.

You're big on freedom of choice, right?

Well, what about my freedom to choose NOT to go there??

What about my freedom to express that opinion on these forums??

What I see here are a bunch of insecure jerks who attack anyone who disagrees with their chosen "lifestyle".

You think I have a closed mind? Take a look in the mirror.

Anyone (including me) who walks through the Nana entrance is aware that not all the people there are nice folks.  Some people will tell you after one visit to Nana or Soi Cowboy or Pat Pong that Bangkok is full of nothing but whores, thieves and con artists. 

There it is again. Someone agreeing with me.

Why is everyone agreeing with me, and yet at the same time, flaming me?

Hypocrites.

fellow who is liked by all you sure do spend an awful lot of time in front of a computer alone, throwing out pages of fluff, answering your own posts?

I can type 100+ words a minute, so it takes me relatively no time at all to post huge rants. It's a gift I'm sure you all appreciate .

Get off Kringle's ass about decisions that are his and his wife's alone.

I'll "get off his ass" about the decisions he makes, when you "get off my ass" for the decisions I make.

If I chose to spend my time NOT going to go-go bars, that's my right, correct? And if I chose to spend my time posting on these forums, that's my right too, correct?

So why don't you get off my case.

I have an opinion you don't like. Big f'ing deal.

Grow up. Not everyone in this world is cut from the same cloth.

[Darlek]

Last night I was in Nana Plaza around nine pm (at least that's the last I remember). Did the regular bit of checking out some of the bars and went into one of the places on the second floor with the curtains hanging down on the right hand side and then everything else I can't remember. I woke up this morning around 8 am on the side of the road somewhere between Nana and Democracy Monument. No wallet,phone or watch. Hailed a cab, got home and called about my cards to report them stolen. Then the wife notices what look like cigerette burns all over my back. I must have been drugged because I don't have any bruises or lumps or any other problems or pain that I can notice. I didn't have a hangover so I couldn't have been that drunk and I don't think I could drink enough to keep the burning pain away that I must of had when the burns happened.

I feel very lucky to be alive to write about this and this has certainly wakened me up to how you always have to be careful no matter where you are. I will not be going by myself to any place that I don't know someone. I've been going to Nana for over two years and have never heard of such in this place and guess I just took it for granted that I was safe. Scared the <deleted> out of me! Be aware and you can never be too careful. If going somewhere that you don't know make sure you're with friends.

2 pals of mine were also druggedand robbed by a girlthey met outside nana plaza.

they had known her a week when they all went down to phuket .

when they arrived at the rented place she made them some coffees and they woke up next day ,with a headache and everything one , money cards passports the lot.

[chanchao]

Can we please all keep it civilized?

Pudgimelon has a point, feel free to disagree with it either partly or wholly. I myself disagree with it partly but please remain respectful to other posters; it's in the forum guidelines somewhere. (Like, at the top)

So far I've suspended Shemmy for 7 days for being both violent AND racist, and I have probably been far to lenient with that. (He can still read the forum, but not post for 7 days, like a cool-off period which should give him ample time to read the forum guidelines.

---

AFAIK Woodstock does not have freelancers, or no more than any other bar between Ploenchit and Asoke anyway; it's a sports bar, and kind of a nice break from everything else in Nana.

---

As for Khao San Road, a while ago I read a report (not on Thaivisa) by a guy who was drugged there by a ladyboy; pretty similar story to the original post really.

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited September 9, 2004 by chanchao

[WISteve]

I think we can all respect your freedom of choice in your personal life, Pudgy.

I do NOT respect sentiment like this though:

I merely pointed out that anyone foolish enough to go into Nana, deserves what they get.

Kringle did NOT deserve to get drugged and robbed. To say that is making a moral judgement which you do not have the right to make.

Persons who choose that lifestyle know the consequences that MAY befall them. It does not mean they DESERVE to be robbed or drugged.

BTW, are you married now (as in this thread) or just have a beautiful and charming girlfriend like in the other thread?

~Steve

[kenk3z]

Thanks Kringle for posting your experience. Quite horrible really - and to realize it could have been much worse if you had medical complications or they used too much "dosage".

Your account seems to indicate some kind of drug that acted on you very quickly. I really wonder if it was something in your drink, or perhaps an aerosol sprayed in your face?

While you might have some defense against something put in your drink, if you keep watch on it, there's not much defense against a little perfume bottle spray of the right stuff. But I guess pills or powder is a lot easier to get than aerosol forms.

It also seems to me several people might be involved. I doubt anyone pulled up your shirt and proceeded to burn you with a cigarette right there at the bar's entrance. It takes time to do what happened to you. Puff Puff, burn. Puff Puff, burn, etc.

kenk3z

[IamMaiC]

Last night I was in Nana Plaza around nine pm (at least that's the last I remember). Did the regular bit of checking out some of the bars and went into one of the places on the second floor with the curtains hanging down on the right hand side and then everything else I can't remember. I woke up this morning around 8 am on the side of the road somewhere between Nana and Democracy Monument. No wallet,phone or watch. Hailed a cab, got home and called about my cards to report them stolen. Then the wife notices what look like cigerette burns all over my back. I must have been drugged because I don't have any bruises or lumps or any other problems or pain that I can notice. I didn't have a hangover so I couldn't have been that drunk and I don't think I could drink enough to keep the burning pain away that I must of had when the burns happened.

I feel very lucky to be alive to write about this and this has certainly wakened me up to how you always have to be careful no matter where you are. I will not be going by myself to any place that I don't know someone. I've been going to Nana for over two years and have never heard of such in this place and guess I just took it for granted that I was safe. Scared the <deleted> out of me! Be aware and you can never be too careful. If going somewhere that you don't know make sure you're with friends.

i wonder if the burn marks on his back were made to see if the drug had taken effect or not??

[Thaicoon]

[deleted]

Edited September 9, 2004 by chanchao