Dowry In Rural Issan

[coventry]

Corkman I keep coming back to your post because of it's truefulness and I think that it should be highlighted on a special page/forum, whatever. Really good read.

[Lickey]

Surely what Corkman posted can be condensed down to common sense i would think,

Married before with Kids, no dowry again, up to you,

Mum and dad live in a shed on the edge of a run down farm? ok, build a decent place and clean up the farm, get them off susbsitance level to a profit making level, so now youve spent perhaps 800,000/1million bht,

Fast forward 3 months, have a look around the new house, is there litter everywhere? bottles of low cal ect? hows the farm looking, still clean and producing crops?

If not, and your common sense does not prevail, youve trapped,

Dont look at your GF with rose tinted glasses, look into her eyes, eyes are the window to the soul, and if she or parents cant look at you when talking, then they are hiding something..

[mahtin]

I have to say that I agree with a lot of what Corkman says - although I think some of his comments can be viewed as having a degree of arrogance. I doubt that was the intention.

Correct - its not my intention to come off as arrogant. In the flesh, I am anything but arogant (I hope!) - if its once thing that rubs me up the wrong way its arrogance - so sorry if I came off that way to anyone. I aspire to be, and hope I am viewed by my peers as a man of humility and thought - not as retentious or arrogant - so my appoliges to anyone, if I have come accross that way.

Rick75

The going home money and the ceremony etc. > honestly, I would view this whole thing in a positive light. If she is doing this, it is her way of showing commitment to you. It says to her family and peers "this is my man" and really that is a big thing to Thai's. She's not going to dump you and go up there with a different boyfriend in 6 months times…. It would mean her and her family loosing face big time. The sceptics will say that she's just grabbing a "golden" opportunity with both hands – that could be said for practically every Thai – Farang relationship. I would view this as a positive step, all round, and just go along with it.

Explain to her you don't understand, but you are interested and happy to do whatever is needed. You'll probably get the usual "don't worry" line, which basically masks the fact that she cannot explain properly - and she probably knows as much about our customs in such regards as you do about hers. Try not to get frustrated if she can't or seemingly won't explain things in detail, just offer to help, and remind her that she will have to "help" you and show you what to do – and most of all, be "happy" to go along with it. Bascially, all you will have to do is sit there and look pretty – nothing is required of you. There is no "negative" side to this whole thing, as far as I'm concern. In essence, for a Thai to bring you home and say "this is my BF" is akin to saying this is my fiancée. This whole thing is about lending legitimacy to your relationship – in her parents eyes it shows commitment on both your parts and gives them reassurance that your intentions are honourable. This in turn will make her happy, knowing that her family and parents approve.

[/size]

The actual "money" – well that serves two purposes:

1. Something to remember here is that in all likelihood you are giving this money to your GF – not to her parents. This is "her" money, to spend as she sees fit, as it were. When Thai's go home, they don't like to go home empty handed. The attitude is if you are empty handed, then why did you go away to work in the first place – to return empty handed is to return in shame and defeat. They like to go how as conquerors and victors with the spoils of war to show for it. It's a positive attribute as far as I'm concern – a bit of self pride and dignity – not wanting to be, or appear to be "bums". So, she wants to go home, head high, chin up, proclaiming to all "look, I'm doing ok for myself".

2. It will be obvious, and it is intended to be obvious, that you gave her this money. This shows her family and peers that you offer financial security, and that you have the means as well as the intention to look after her – both financially and lovingly.

It is important sometime to differentiate our two cultures – and this is one of those times. In the west, the romantic notion that you should only marry for love, and as long as you love each other, then everything will be ok, and nothing else matters. In Thailand, that notion is absurd. If you have no money, then you have no food, no shelter, and so on….. it is a reality that Thai's live with, and it is something that most westerns can never fully understand, because the prospect of it happening to us is so slim. The ethic is something like "If you love someone, then you would not wish to marry them unless you can look after them. If you cannot look after them, then why would you marry them?". Money does not matter – of course there is a materialistic element to it, but there is a deeper seeded fear of poverty too. To show that you are financially strong is a requirement to Thai's, not a "bonus".

You also have to be careful not to fall into the paranoid trap. Some Farang get it into their head that they are being ripped off at every opportunity. Some are, and bigger fool them. But in this instance, you GF is being a typical girl – all girls (Thai, Western, or otherwise) like to brag about how their man is the best – at least when the relationship is young anyway…… she will take pleasure and delight and pride in giggling with her friends that you spoil her and you can give her all the things she wants. This is only natural, in my view.

The only thing I would be saying to you at this stage is that you are entering a phase where you will soon be living as "man and wife" in their eyes – whether you are married or not, and this is where the money train will start – I would say indulge her at this time, but make it absolutely clear that you must talk about money and her and how it effects her family – if you don't give direction, it will quickly fall to assumption – once it is assumed, it will be promised – once its is promised it must be given, and it is only then that you will find out about it – and to take it back is very, very difficult. Even if it upsets her, and it probably will, tell her, and make it absolutely clear that she is not to promise or discuss money to anyone, ever, without talking to you first! At the same time, try to remember she has a responsibility to her family to look after them. She will have a desire to try and share a bit of the "wealth" that your relationship affords her. Again – this is natural and perfectly normal. The tricky part for you, in the coming months will be to establish how you can facilitate your GF in this way. As per my previous post, I believe this needs to be a compromise – I believe you need to be strong and show leadership in financial matters and at the same time be fair in allowing her to indulge a little. I personally have worked hard, and succeeded in ensuring that I am not viewed as an ATM or a paycheck….. others are happy and comfortable with that – I am not. Most people in the Isaan have no idea where our money comes from – they think we just "have" it…… to you and me, 20,000 baht is not a lot of money – to them it is A LOT…… I believe I show respect to them and their culture, and my wifes family by maintaining the pretence that is a lot of money to me too….. I often wonder how arrogant and condescending it must seem to Thai men in particular to see young men such as myself throw 5,000 baht about like it was nothing when it takes them a month of hard graft to earn it………. so that if they want 10,000 baht for something I feel it is a matter of respect to show that it is not simply a matter of going to the ATM and by magic it appears – that the money does come from somewhere, that it was earned, and that it does have value. If not, what are you saying about them? I put it to you this way, if your 7yr old nephew saved up his pocket money for a year and bought you a CD and always remembers your birthday right up into adulthood, but your millionaire uncle just throws you 50 or 100 quid whenever he thinks of it – who is demonstrating more sincerity, and over the test of time who do you think you will be closer with and have more love & respect for? It is my belief that if Thai people know no respect for where your money comes from, and see no sacrifice in you giving it to them, then they will have no appreciation for it, and quickly take you and your money for granted, with a "so what, he can afford it" attitude. It takes a bit of thought, and it is important to get right, lest it become a bone of contention between you in years to come. For me, the set up is that I will give what I can, when I can…. More when I have it, less when I don't. But it always appears generous, and genuine, and hence when it is received it is appreciated, rather than squandered like the money came from the money tree in the back garden……… this works for me, my wife, and her family. It is to a certain extend patronising, I reliase this, BUT it maintains things in a way that we are all happy and no one feels hard done by, exploited, or taken for granted – so for me that little bit of behind the scenes patronisation pays us all with a hugely positive relationship.

The way I see it all is this. By Thai standards my wife is doing well for herself – rich beyond her peers wildest dreams. She naturally wants to share her wealth with her family – I know I would. I see no harm in this, and I do not want to suppress her, and prevent her from doing this – at the same time, I am not writing any blank cheques. If you married Jane Smith from Manchester, how much would you spend a year on her nieces and nephews, brothers and sisters, parents, grandparents and extended family on xmas & birthday presents etc. I personally do not spend any more than that, but my money goes so much further and does so much more good…… that is how I see it. To conclude, my Thai family does nice things for me – they seek to please me, as I do my own family, and as my family do for me…… they try and surprise me with things. For example, when they hear I'm coming to visit they plant vegetables for me for when I arrive – they know I can just go to the market and buy them, and that the money (relatively) doesn't matter – they just do it because they want to….. and these little things say to me "welcome" they say "we are glad to see you"…. Not just "oh great, excuse for a p i s s up, and payday after that"….. it's the little things that count…..

Sorry if this post seems fragmented, incoherent, or repetitive – I've typed it is sections.

This desrves to be pinned for ever, in gold.

Totally brilliant.

[coventry]

Surely what Corkman posted can be condensed down to common sense i would think,

Married before with Kids, no dowry again, up to you,

Mum and dad live in a shed on the edge of a run down farm? ok, build a decent place and clean up the farm, get them off susbsitance level to a profit making level, so now youve spent perhaps 800,000/1million bht,

Fast forward 3 months, have a look around the new house, is there litter everywhere? bottles of low cal ect? hows the farm looking, still clean and producing crops?

If not, and your common sense does not prevail, youve trapped,

Dont look at your GF with rose tinted glasses, look into her eyes, eyes are the window to the soul, and if she or parents cant look at you when talking, then they are hiding something..

I agree it could be condenced but so could 'War& Peace' but it wouldn't be as good a read. Give Corkman some credit Lickey.

[Thaddeus]

This desrves to be pinned for ever, in gold.

Totally brilliant.

Pinned? ..... sorry have to disagree.

Pinned topics contain information that is generally universally applicable to everyone. Flight schedules, accommodation information, immigration office info et etc.

As it has been shown over a period of many years in this forum when the subject of 'sin sot' rears its head regularly, opinions differ and no two situations are identical.

For example, the last time I married here, I paid.

My wife-to-be had been married before and I knew the rules, so I asked why it was even being requested. The answer given was they didn't want to be reminded of past failures and having some money on show would be pretending that previous mistakes didn't happen. So I put money on the silver plate for all to see, the only portion that wasn't returned to me helped to pay for the party. That was my situation, wouldn't apply in all situations.

There are few 'golden rules' on this subject, and very little advice that is applicable under all circumstances. Each time this question comes up it needs to be dealt with individually.

[bergen]

This desrves to be pinned for ever, in gold.

Totally brilliant.

Pinned? ..... sorry have to disagree.

Pinned topics contain information that is generally universally applicable to everyone. Flight schedules, accommodation information, immigration office info et etc.

As it has been shown over a period of many years in this forum when the subject of 'sin sot' rears its head regularly, opinions differ and no two situations are identical.

For example, the last time I married here, I paid.

My wife-to-be had been married before and I knew the rules, so I asked why it was even being requested. The answer given was they didn't want to be reminded of past failures and having some money on show would be pretending that previous mistakes didn't happen. So I put money on the silver plate for all to see, the only portion that wasn't returned to me helped to pay for the party. That was my situation, wouldn't apply in all situations.

There are few 'golden rules' on this subject, and very little advice that is applicable under all circumstances. Each time this question comes up it needs to be dealt with individually.

Thaddeus - wise & experienced words!

Edited May 23, 2008 by bergen

[corkman]

I agree it could be condenced but so could 'War& Peace' but it wouldn't be as good a read. Give Corkman some credit Lickey.

Thanks coventry, mahtin, et al for the positive comments etc. But sincerely, I am not looking for praise or credit, or anything like that - just trying to empart my experience and thoughts on the issue in the hope that someone can gleam a little useful info - more over however I like to encourage people to be cautiously positive, rather then suspiciously paranoid - and above all think before they act. For example, the greatest err in judgement that I have come accross, in my HUMBLE opinion is when you get some guy who in one breath is bragging about how they earn in a day what a Thai man does in a month and 5,000 baht is "nothing" - and in the next breat coming out with comments like "5,000 baht is too much money" when the GF asks for a few bob for her family - I know if it were the other way around my reply to that would be "if 5,000 baht is nothing to you, and you think 5000 is too much for my family, then are you saying my family is worth less than 5000 baht, hence worth less than nothing by your own definition"......... but you see your Thai GF most likelyy cannot articulate that sentiment, but you can be sure that is what she wants to say, and all too often farang have the misconception that because a Thai person cannot express their thoughts to you then they must be stupid and hence you start treating them like they are stupid - can you then blame her for getting frustrated and throwing a fit! I would hope that my post above would provoke thoughts such as that, and make people more mindful of how they go about their daily business - but as they say, its my opinion, and its free - and anything which is free is worth nothing, by definition (could the same be said of air?).... take it as you find it

Thaddeus,

"Pinned topics contain information that is generally universally applicable to everyone. Flight schedules, accommodation information, immigration office info et etc."

I totally agree - it is a dangerous persuit to try and portrait one mans opinion as fact - it is equally dangerous to live your life by another mans rules....... "Rules are for the obedience of fools and guidance of wise men" is something that springs to mind here. This is a sensitive topic, and I doubt very many people here are qualified to lay down the rules about what's right and wrong, and what should and should not be done - my approach is a very personal one - those less learned in the ways of Isaan etc. might take away some useful information from this, and it might be a good starting place for them...... for others it might not.... to "pin" it would suggest is has the endorsement of the forum as a whole - which I doubt is the case...... There are many ways to skin a cat (and in Isaan there are many ways to cook one too.... LOL )....

I apprecaite people's compliments, and I am glad to have shared my experiences and to have offered what I believe to be an insight, but I think it would be very unwise for anyone to take it as their gospil.

Edited May 23, 2008 by corkman

[raybingham]

Corkman,

Your posts are what this forum should be about. Someone expressing their view, or seeking advice, in a balanced and considered manner.

Everyone's situation is different but your experiences are something that we can all relate to. It comes down to going in with your eyes open, understanding what is expected of you and then responding in the way that is right for YOU.

I get enormous pleasure from giving Mama 3,000 Baht when I leave after one of my visits to the family home. I also give 2,000 to eldest sister who manages to family budget. It is not expected of me, I want to do it out of respect and support for the family and the payback (in terms of hospitality etc) is immeasurable.

Equally, I have declined a request from my G/F for 1,000 Bt to send home when I was certain she had more than enough cash to pay this herself.

Your words made me question why I "bragged", in the early days of my relationship, about income/assets. I guess I was trying to establish my status or value to someone 20 years younger than me ! The smart people keep their mouth shut, don't stay in 5 star hotels, don't tip excessively and don't spend like a holiday tourist if are a regular visitor.

[coventry]

Corkman,

Your posts are what this forum should be about. Someone expressing their view, or seeking advice, in a balanced and considered manner.

Everyone's situation is different but your experiences are something that we can all relate to. It comes down to going in with your eyes open, understanding what is expected of you and then responding in the way that is right for YOU.

I get enormous pleasure from giving Mama 3,000 Baht when I leave after one of my visits to the family home. I also give 2,000 to eldest sister who manages to family budget. It is not expected of me, I want to do it out of respect and support for the family and the payback (in terms of hospitality etc) is immeasurable.

Equally, I have declined a request from my G/F for 1,000 Bt to send home when I was certain she had more than enough cash to pay this herself.

Your words made me question why I "bragged", in the early days of my relationship, about income/assets. I guess I was trying to establish my status or value to someone 20 years younger than me ! The smart people keep their mouth shut, don't stay in 5 star hotels, don't tip excessively and don't spend like a holiday tourist if are a regular visitor.

Once again a good post. We do exactly what Thais do in that when we've got it we flawnt it. Bad thing all round

[corkman]

Your words made me question why I "bragged", in the early days of my relationship, about income/assets.

LOL - Yep - "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you....." .... LOL - I've done a bit of "word eating" myself - it helps that I'm a slippery little git, when trying to wiggle my way out of things ...... an attribute that can sometimes be an asset, inspite of being an otherwise less than desireable trait

Edited May 23, 2008 by corkman

[crazyeddie]

A lot of thoughtful, well expressed thoughts you all have presented. The original question, I think, was how much did one "pay" for the bride price. I gave the parents 6 troy oz. of gold, about 12 baht, which at that time was about 100K Baht. Now it is worth double that, roughly. I told the wife to let them keep it, as I can easily afford such a small gift. By the way, I am a 58 year old farang (non virgin) and my wife is a 32 year old Isaan woman with no kids. She is no longer a vigin either. I see nothing at all wrong with this custom, and have no resentment at all. Actually, when I went to have a "serious" talk with her father, and we were "bargaining" about the amount, he said 5 ounces, and I said how about 6? Gotta have face.

[Neeranam]

It is important sometime to differentiate our two cultures – and this is one of those times. In the west, the romantic notion that you should only marry for love, and as long as you love each other, then everything will be ok, and nothing else matters. In Thailand, that notion is absurd. If you have no money, then you have no food, no shelter, and so on….. it is a reality that Thai's live with, and it is something that most westerns can never fully understand, because the prospect of it happening to us is so slim. The ethic is something like "If you love someone, then you would not wish to marry them unless you can look after them. If you cannot look after them, then why would you marry them?". Money does not matter – of course there is a materialistic element to it, but there is a deeper seeded fear of poverty too. To show that you are financially strong is a requirement to Thai's, not a "bonus".

I disagree. I wonder how long you've actually lived in Isarn? Money seems nowhere near as important, to honest hard-working families that I meet,

than many farang believe - or are brainwashed by their woman into thinking.

There are some of us that didn't have any money, or nothing in relation to what our wives had, when we got married.

[coventry]

What is it with people negotiating the buying of a woman because that's what it is. If she marries because of the money paid to her family then I truely believe it's a business transaction. If you're the only one negotating the Sin Sot then the ball must be in your court and anyone allowing the parent to set the price is a fool.

Why not just put her on Ebay ?

Just marrying a farang should suffice in showing the woman has done well in life. I never paid and never would but did it stop us marrying ? No. Do people look down on her because I never paid ? No. Is her family belittled ? No. Is she, and her family, any better off for marrying me ? Yes

Edited May 26, 2008 by coventry

[Gary A]

Like it or not sin sot is alive and well. It is part of the Thai culture and you would do well to think long and hard about refusing to pay it. There are all sorts of different ways to handle it. A friend of mine had the money and gold laid out for all to see but it was understood by the immediate family that the money was to be returned and used to pay off the house that they were building. After all the festivities the money and gold was returned to the couple and everyone was happy.

A young twenty two year old Thai lady who has graduated from a university will demand a large dowry. BUT, it's not likely that you are going to marry a Thai lady like this. Most of us are older guys and hopefully will find an older lady to marry. An old, bald, fat man getting married to a twenty something lady, IMHO, is just asking for a lot of grief. Yes, it can work but you would do well to consider the formula that I was given by a very astute educated Thai man. The proper age difference in Thailand is half your age plus seven years.

By the way, I am an old bald fat man. Actually not too fat, just a beer belly, but I pretty much fit the description. I was willing to arrange some sort of sin sot We had discussed it and she told me it was up to me. I decided to leave it up to my wife. She decided that sin sot was not necessary and it was not paid or shown. I was fifty eight and she was thirty six.

I think the attitude by your intended say a lot about her. My wife is close to her family like most Thai ladies. That certainly doesn't mean that they can tell her what to do. She is NOT a docile easily manipulated lady. I can say that for a fact.

[Neeranam]

As an addendum - recently, my brother-in-law got married. We gave him 50,000 Baht towards what he paid to his new wifes family. In pricniple, I do not have a problem with the whole concept - its works fine - far be it for me to judge a cultural practice - I am not qualified to do so....... it is just not MY culture, and I personally would not subscribe to it.

Unbelievable, not only happy to pay a sinsot for your own wife but paying to another ones As a matter of interest, how much sinsot did you pay?

A young twenty two year old Thai lady who has graduated from a university will demand a large dowry. BUT, it's not likely that you are going to marry a Thai lady like this. Most of us are older guys and hopefully will find an older lady to marry. An old, bald, fat man getting married to a twenty something lady, IMHO, is just asking for a lot of grief. Yes, it can work but you would do well to consider the formula that I was given by a very astute educated Thai man. The proper age difference in Thailand is half your age plus seven years.

Good post sir. A big factor is your age. I was 35 when marrying - wife 24. If I were 55 and she 24, then it would be more like a business agreement.

Edited May 26, 2008 by Neeranam

[MISTERBONK]

Unbelievable, not only happy to pay a sinsot for your own wife but paying to another ones The family sure love him, Will be making sure all the men in the family marry quickly, before he "jumps ship"

Good post sir. A big factor is your age. I was 35 when marrying - wife 24. If I were 55 and she 24, then it would be more like a business agreement.

If a sin sot is just for show, regardless of the amount involved, and will be returned in its entirety after the wedding, then I have no problem with it. Just play along with their immature games.

Disagree entirely with your comment about age difference. Regardless of the ages of the parties involved it is ALWAYS a business transaction if the money is not returned. There is a large age difference between my wife and I, as no doubt there is with many married forum members. It is irrelevant and certainly in itself is no justification for either keeping the sin sot or demanding a higher price. - or paying it in the first place! Indeed where the farang is ancient, there is a very good case for him to demand a payment, since the family will likely be benefiting from his pension and inheritance somewhat sooner rather than later!

[Neeranam]

Unbelievable, not only happy to pay a sinsot for your own wife but paying to another ones The family sure love him, Will be making sure all the men in the family marry quickly, before he "jumps ship"

Good post sir. A big factor is your age. I was 35 when marrying - wife 24. If I were 55 and she 24, then it would be more like a business agreement.

If a sin sot is just for show, regardless of the amount involved, and will be returned in its entirety after the wedding, then I have no problem with it. Just play along with their immature games.

Disagree entirely with your comment about age difference. Regardless of the ages of the parties involved it is ALWAYS a business transaction if the money is not returned. There is a large age difference between my wife and I, as no doubt there is with many married forum members. It is irrelevant and certainly in itself is no justification for either keeping the sin sot or demanding a higher price. - or paying it in the first place! Indeed where the farang is ancient, there is a very good case for him to demand a payment, since the family will likely be benefiting from his pension and inheritance somewhat sooner rather than later!

Yes, good point. Although, when I see a couple of the same age and a 70 y/o with a 25 y/o, I would think that there may be more chance of a real love between the former. But I respect your opinion.

[corkman]

As an addendum - recently, my brother-in-law got married. We gave him 50,000 Baht towards what he paid to his new wifes family. In pricniple, I do not have a problem with the whole concept - its works fine - far be it for me to judge a cultural practice - I am not qualified to do so....... it is just not MY culture, and I personally would not subscribe to it.

Unbelievable, not only happy to pay a sinsot for your own wife but paying to another ones As a matter of interest, how much sinsot did you pay?

I think you misunderstood:

I personally paid nothing by way of sinsot - it is not something that I would personally subscribe to - I find it too much in oposition to my culture. As much as I married into Thai culture my Mrs. married into my culture. On those grounds, no sinsot was paid - I've already gone into detail again as to alternative arrangements that were made, and continue today.... everyone is happy - but for me, it was an important benchmark (retrospectively) to make it clear from the outset that they (as in the Thai family) were going to have to meet me half way with a bit of cultural understanding etc. and it has all worked out very well for all concerned.

That being said - I do not have a problem with the practice - I do not look down on it, nor do I believe that any one man should, or should subscribe to it..... it depends on you, your personal beliefs, your situation, and so on..... As regards helping my Mrs. brother in paying the sinsot to his new wife's family - my point here is that it illustrates I do not have a problem with the practice - more over I think when it comes to Thai-on-Thai that it is an important cultural practice / tradition etc...... in so far that I am not qualified to pass judgement - it is important to them, and that enough for me. As far as I'm aware, my brother in law got the money back from his new inlaws, and they are now building a house etc. with that money. In any case - no one asked me for this money - I heard them talking about it (in thai) and got the gist of what they were on about - I said to my Mrs. that I would like to help the guy out, he works hard, drinks little, doesn't gamble and has his head screwed on - he is a fine example for his younger brothers to look up to, I like him, and just wanted to help him out. So as far as I am concerned, I gave my brother-in-law some money as a gift, to help him out and help give him a good start in married life....... i.e. in my eyes it was a gift from me to him - and it was given on the condition that it was not boradcast to the town.... and when the other two brothers get married, if they learn to conduct themselves in a dignified and mature manner (which I am sure they will, as they amture) I will help them out too.

Hope thats a little clearer

[chickenslegs]

QUOTING GARY A " A young twenty two year old Thai lady who has graduated from a university will demand a large dowry. BUT, it's not likely that you are going to marry a Thai lady like this. Most of us are older guys and hopefully will find an older lady to marry. An old, bald, fat man getting married to a twenty something lady, IMHO, is just asking for a lot of grief. Yes, it can work but you would do well to consider the formula that I was given by a very astute educated Thai man. The proper age difference in Thailand is half your age plus seven years." END QUOTE

I can't disagree with this as, the age difference between my wife and I was exactly "half + 7 yrs".

However, does this mean that when you reach 70 and your wife is 48, you will need to look around for a younger model (70/2=35, 35+7=42)

It gets worse, when you get to 90 you should have a 52 yr old wife, but yours will be 68.

I hope you both get there and have good times on the way.

Whoops - havn't quite got the hang of editing quotes

Edited May 26, 2008 by chickenslegs

[corkman]

It is important sometime to differentiate our two cultures – and this is one of those times. In the west, the romantic notion that you should only marry for love, and as long as you love each other, then everything will be ok, and nothing else matters. In Thailand, that notion is absurd. If you have no money, then you have no food, no shelter, and so on….. it is a reality that Thai's live with, and it is something that most westerns can never fully understand, because the prospect of it happening to us is so slim. The ethic is something like "If you love someone, then you would not wish to marry them unless you can look after them. If you cannot look after them, then why would you marry them?". Money does not matter – of course there is a materialistic element to it, but there is a deeper seeded fear of poverty too. To show that you are financially strong is a requirement to Thai's, not a "bonus".

I disagree. I wonder how long you've actually lived in Isarn? Money seems nowhere near as important, to honest hard-working families that I meet,

than many farang believe - or are brainwashed by their woman into thinking.

There are some of us that didn't have any money, or nothing in relation to what our wives had, when we got married.

The general idea of the sinsot is to show financial security - yes? I mean, I am sure there is a dozen "explanations" and "reasons" behind it, but when it comes to the crunch it is a case of "if you want my daughters hand in marriage, and want my blessing, then prove you can look after her, and cough up a few bob"....... I am not referring to money, in general - but rather in the context of proving worth to the family which you wish to marry into. To that end, in my view, your very presence in Thailand is show enough that you are in good financial standing. I agree completely that honest hard working folk are held in high regard - but honest hard working folk, by definition are gianfully employed, in some fashion - i.e. they are making a living. I am not trying to say that a "show of wealth" is important per say, but rather it is important to show you are financially strong in that you have the means to provide for your wife-to-be. It is not a case of "money is everything".......on the contrary, as I tried to make the point previsouly - Thai people will have much more respect for a Farang man that shows them respect in turn: belittling locals by through money around like it is nothing is not showing them respect - it is fool hardy arrogance. It says "oh look, I just spent 10,000 baht like it was nothing - how much do you earn a month - 5,000 baht.... ha ha ha, thats nothing..... thats pathetic..... I could get twice that in 1 day"..... that attitude and behaviour is both arrogant and insulting. So no, I do not think, nor do I mean to suggest that splashing money around will earn you the repsect of locals, nor do I mean to suggest that it is important to appear wealthy - what I do mean to suggest is that it is important to show that yes, you have money BUT you work hard for it, and are not willing to part with it willy-nilly. It is important to show you are honest and hardworking AND genuine and generous and it has nothing to do with my Mrs. "brainwashing" me into thinking money is more important than it is..... travelling the world and staying in fancy hotels in Bkk etc. then showing up with a bottle of Johny Walker and a bag of oragnes doesn't quite cut the mustard in my eyes - it is disingenuous to suggest that is generous, its like showing up for a dinner party to your bothers house with a bottle of Moet Champaign then bringing a bottle of tesco's best to your mother-in-laws - if family members can chip in 500 baht every time they come home, when they are earning 5000 baht, and you are spending the same, then to me that just comes across as tight - I am not suggesting flambouyance and pomp lashing of materialistic presents and I am just saying your behaviour should be fair and proportional - but it is highly subjective to your personal situation. If you have a computer in your house, and a phone connection, then by Isaan standards you have alot and are doing ok......

I can assure you, I do not have "money" either - and I had even less when I was married at 24 (6yrs ago) with over 50 grand debt from college - but the very presence of a farang in the Isaan area says you collect, or have in the past collected a western salary - which by local standards is awlays gonig to be alot of money - you don't have to be "wealthy" to be repsected in Isaan - you do have to be genuine and sincere in your activities, you need to be generous and willing to share and be a team player in the family, and of course hardworking-nothing Thai's hate more than laziness ........

I am not direction this at you Neeranam (in case you think I am ) - but saying it generally - a problem with wealth, money, and perception is Farangs all too often applying double standards. Applying western standards and morals one minute and thai standards another minute, as and when they suit. I think a bit of consistency is called for, personally....... "I'm not paying a sinsot, its not my culture" in one breath and bringing them a bottle of whiskey "because its a perfectly acceptable thai custom" in the next breath..... I personally try to avoid such double standards - I would not insult my brother or sister by putting a £5 note in a birthday card for them, by the same not I would not offer up 300 baht as a gift..... lets face it, thats pocket change. Now there is a bit of rationalisation called for obviously, and again it is highly subjective but if I am gonig to apply my "western" standards to things like a sinsot - then I will apply it accross the board...... if I wanted to apply Thai "standards" then equally I would apply it accross the board - I would not try to squirm out of each situation to suit - because that would not be genuine, or honest, in my book.

[corkman]

What is it with people negotiating the buying of a woman because that's what it is. If she marries because of the money paid to her family then I truely believe it's a business transaction. If you're the only one negotating the Sin Sot then the ball must be in your court and anyone allowing the parent to set the price is a fool.

Why not just put her on Ebay ?

Just marrying a farang should suffice in showing the woman has done well in life. I never paid and never would but did it stop us marrying ? No. Do people look down on her because I never paid ? No. Is her family belittled ? No. Is she, and her family, any better off for marrying me ? Yes

If it were the case that when a Farang man wants to marry a Thai woman, he had to pay for the privilege, but if a Thai man were to marry the same woman then no such money would be required, then I would agree with this 100%.

However, this is not the case. Thai men pay the sinsot too. Maybe it is the case that all women (or the vast majority) are either "up for sale" or "have been sold"...... I personally do not see it that way, but to reiterate what I said a dozen times or more I do not think I am suitably qualified to make such a judgement. So, I just resign myeslf to the fact that it is just a Thai cultural thing - which to the typical Westerner is taboo and absurd. But there are some things that we cannot understand, and equally some things we cannot explain. This practice is something that Thai's do, and whatever the reason is behind it, they just do.

As an exercise, try and explain christianity to a Thai - then try and explain the relevence of a green tree with flashing lights...... and presents under it .... and a big fat man in a red suit delivers them, down a chimney (the smallest aperture in a house)..... all you'll get is "farang bah"..... but its just what we do, and the "sense" of it all has been lost in commercialism, time, and misconception....... and whether its right or wrong, or indeed even appropriate that most people run their credit cards up to the limit to buy presents at a time of "brotherly love, forgiveness and giving" which is meant to be the embodiment of our faith..... well that's open to debate, BUT, if you do not take part and reciprocate and "be merry" than you are quicky branded a "scrooge" and a miserable sod.... odd..... generally frowned upon...... So, as I say - as an exercise, try and explain that to a Thai - try and convince the whole village to take part.....

My point is, its a cultural thing - and logic or reason as you or I understand it, cannot always be applied in such matters...... you know my attitude towards it. My personal feeling would be that if I paid money to marry my wife, I would have been buying her - that is against my personal beliefs, it is not exaclty conducive to my religion, and I felt I would have been living a lie.... but that is my own personal position and belief, and it is how I feel about it...... and feelings cannot be explained or justified or debated..... that is how I felt, and that is why I personally did not pay anything - BUT that is not to say it is right, wrong or otherwise for anyone else to do it......., and it is not to say that I have not made compromises in other matters..... it all depends on how you "feel", and I felt strongly about this.

But I do not think it is a busniness transaction - I think that is very harsh to be honest...... As far as old men marrying young women....... look, the world over there are trophy wives and sugar daddies..... where is the line drawn ..... there is no formula - as long as there is a bit of honesty, then so what..... of course you need to maintain a fascade, but if two people marry and go into it with their eyes open, then whats wrong with that. If a guy in his 70's is marrying a woman in her 20's, then I have no doubt he may genuinely love her - but deep down he must know that ulterior motives are a distinct possibility. If you are marrying someone more than 10-15yrs your junior, you must have an open mind and realise that whilst your partner might love you, its is very likely that money has something to do with it too. I mean lets be frank an honest about it.......... a 20-something has ambition and hopes for the future..... a 70-something is looking forward to retirement and an easy life.... the senior person, with the ebefit of wisdom, must surely realise this, and make allowance for it - and so long as he is happy to go along with the whims of a a 20 something wife.

Edited May 26, 2008 by corkman

[Lickey]

Surely what Corkman posted can be condensed down to common sense i would think,

Married before with Kids, no dowry again, up to you,

Mum and dad live in a shed on the edge of a run down farm? ok, build a decent place and clean up the farm, get them off susbsitance level to a profit making level, so now youve spent perhaps 800,000/1million bht,

Fast forward 3 months, have a look around the new house, is there litter everywhere? bottles of low cal ect? hows the farm looking, still clean and producing crops?

If not, and your common sense does not prevail, youve trapped,

Dont look at your GF with rose tinted glasses, look into her eyes, eyes are the window to the soul, and if she or parents cant look at you when talking, then they are hiding something..

I agree it could be condenced but so could 'War& Peace' but it wouldn't be as good a read. Give Corkman some credit Lickey.

Credit where credit is due, but to me because of the 2 different print types in the post, was it scanned in, copied from another site or what?

[Neeranam]

Surely what Corkman posted can be condensed down to common sense i would think,

Married before with Kids, no dowry again, up to you,

Mum and dad live in a shed on the edge of a run down farm? ok, build a decent place and clean up the farm, get them off susbsitance level to a profit making level, so now youve spent perhaps 800,000/1million bht,

Fast forward 3 months, have a look around the new house, is there litter everywhere? bottles of low cal ect? hows the farm looking, still clean and producing crops?

If not, and your common sense does not prevail, youve trapped,

Dont look at your GF with rose tinted glasses, look into her eyes, eyes are the window to the soul, and if she or parents cant look at you when talking, then they are hiding something..

I agree it could be condenced but so could 'War& Peace' but it wouldn't be as good a read. Give Corkman some credit Lickey.

Credit where credit is due, but to me because of the 2 different print types in the post, was it scanned in, copied from another site or what?

That's what I thought - this guy seems to think himself an expert but refuses to tell us how long he has actually lived in Isaarn for. Very opinionated with little experience of what Isarn people actually think, I'd bet.

Edited May 27, 2008 by Neeranam

[corkman]

Surely what Corkman posted can be condensed down to common sense i would think,

Married before with Kids, no dowry again, up to you,

Mum and dad live in a shed on the edge of a run down farm? ok, build a decent place and clean up the farm, get them off susbsitance level to a profit making level, so now youve spent perhaps 800,000/1million bht,

Fast forward 3 months, have a look around the new house, is there litter everywhere? bottles of low cal ect? hows the farm looking, still clean and producing crops?

If not, and your common sense does not prevail, youve trapped,

Dont look at your GF with rose tinted glasses, look into her eyes, eyes are the window to the soul, and if she or parents cant look at you when talking, then they are hiding something..

I agree it could be condenced but so could 'War& Peace' but it wouldn't be as good a read. Give Corkman some credit Lickey.

Credit where credit is due, but to me because of the 2 different print types in the post, was it scanned in, copied from another site or what?

That's what I thought - this guy seems to think himself an expert but refuses to tell us how long he has actually lived in Isaarn for. Very opinionated with little experience of what Isarn people actually think, I'd bet.

1. To Lickey – Is this the type of font difference that causes you concern? I typed it out myself - which I noted in the original post to which you refer - it is a different font type because I used MS Outlook - which is my primary word processor (i.e. email editor). Why did I do that - because as I originally noted in my post, I typed it out in sections - which I noted because there may have been some discontinuity in tone etc. which would have appeared fragmented. It took a while to type it out - I gave it a bit of thought - and I am at work, so I typed it out as and when I had the chance. I can assure you, I did not copy anything from another site - if I had I would have just referenced it, which would have been allot easier. If you read through it, and read through my other posts, you will hopefully see I use the same type of language and phrases throughout - the same type of punctuation - the same type of tone, and make reference to the same type of situations. If I had copied what someone else authored then I would need to be a pretty clever mimic to pull that off. So hopefully this explanation will alleviate your concerns?

2. "This guy seems to think himself an expert" - I have repeatedly stated in no uncertain terms that anything I type is my opinion, my personal belief, and that anyone reading should not take me literally or try to apply anything I write, to their own situation. I have further stated numerous times that I am not qualified to pass judgment on cultural practices of Thailand. All the replies I have put forward since the referenced post have, for the most part, been in response to other peoples queries / comments (all be they long winded). When people started "praising" me and started calling for my post to be pinned - I again asked that it be re-read with a little objectivity and highlighted that it is just the opinion of one person, and that my opinion, as should everyone else's, be taken with a pinch of salt. If I am an expert, in my own eyes or anyone else's for that matter – then I am an expert only in my own affairs, not in the affairs of others. I am a very pensive person – I think everything through, I try to consider all outcomes and eventualities and subsequently plan and do and say things that I feel represent a satisfactory outcome. To me, satisfactory means that I am happy with a result – and in the context of family members I would not be happy unless everyone was happy – unless a compromise that is satisfactory to all is reached……… in my little world, to do otherwise would simply spell future disaster if "bones of contention" keep rearing their ugly heads. What is wrong with that I would ask? I try to be master of my own destiny – not anyone else's…….. think myself an expert – I certainly do not.

3. "but refuses to tell us how long he has actually lived in Isaarn for" - I have never refused any such thing - I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that I typed somewhere I am a 30yr old Irish man, living in Ireland. I have spent considerable time in Isaan - where I own a modest home - I travel out twice a year - sometimes for a week - sometimes for a month - sometimes for several months…. Whatever work allows. I do not consider myself an "Isaan Resident" - but I am far from a tourist, and far from being unfamiliar with the area or customs. I have no secrets or ulterior motives, as your statement would seem to suggest. What possible motive would I have for that?

4. "Very opinionated with little experience of what Isarn people actually think, I'd bet." - very opinionate..... what's wrong with that - you see I have an opinion on a larger issue - you on the other hand have an opinion about me...... my opinion on that is found on the basis of considerable time spent in the region and socio-economic impact it has my marriage, my wife, my children, my life and my bank balance - what is your opinion of me based on? An hours worth of typing on an internet chat forum where we are all protected by the anonymity it affords us...... pot calling kettle black, no? As far as knowing what Isaan people actually think - who really knows that only Isaan people? I do not try to "know what they think" - I simply 'respond to a stimulus' as they say - what people treat you in a sincere and loving way, it is easy to recognise - that is how I am treated, as a reward for showing or at least trying to show that I have more than a superficial understanding and appreciation for their way of life. I go about my business, and conduct myself in a manner which I have best tried to describe in previous posts - it has worked for me, and that is all I have tried to say........

I have tried, in a sincere and honest way, to impart the things I have learned and observed over the last 6yrs or so, through a medium of this general discussion board. I have tried to temper my opinions by repeatedly stating that whilst I have had "success" (if that is the appropriate term) in integrating my culture with my wife's, that my approach is not for everyone – and by no means is it the right or wrong way to go about anything. An opinion is just that, an opinion – it cannot be right or wrong. I have put my opinion out there as honestly and sincerely as I can – I would hope that it would provoke thought in those who read it, and I accept that people will agree or disagree with anything that I have said. I think at this stage, perhaps I have become over involved in the topic. I come here to involve myself in general matters – not to be ridiculed or criticized at a personal level. To that end will refrain from typing further on the matter (other than to possibly defend myself, should same be required), since my ramblings is obviously causing offence. To anyone that I have offended, I sincerely apologize, for it was not my intention – I only mean well. Finally, I would conclude on the something which I have tried to highlight through – anything I type is my opinion – just that, an opinion – take is as you will, it is neither right or wrong, just my own interpretation of things as I see it – in the context of my personally situation.

From a reply I typed previsoulr (post #187):

"it is a dangerous persuit to try and portrait one mans opinion as fact - it is equally dangerous to live your life by another mans rules....... "Rules are for the obedience of fools and guidance of wise men" is something that springs to mind here. This is a sensitive topic, and I doubt very many people here are qualified to lay down the rules about what's right and wrong, and what should and should not be done - my approach is a very personal one - those less learned in the ways of Isaan etc. might take away some useful information from this, and it might be a good starting place for them...... for others it might not"

Edited May 27, 2008 by corkman

[raybingham]

Surely what Corkman posted can be condensed down to common sense i would think,

Married before with Kids, no dowry again, up to you,

Mum and dad live in a shed on the edge of a run down farm? ok, build a decent place and clean up the farm, get them off susbsitance level to a profit making level, so now youve spent perhaps 800,000/1million bht,

Fast forward 3 months, have a look around the new house, is there litter everywhere? bottles of low cal ect? hows the farm looking, still clean and producing crops?

If not, and your common sense does not prevail, youve trapped,

Dont look at your GF with rose tinted glasses, look into her eyes, eyes are the window to the soul, and if she or parents cant look at you when talking, then they are hiding something..

I agree it could be condenced but so could 'War& Peace' but it wouldn't be as good a read. Give Corkman some credit Lickey.

Credit where credit is due, but to me because of the 2 different print types in the post, was it scanned in, copied from another site or what?

That's what I thought - this guy seems to think himself an expert but refuses to tell us how long he has actually lived in Isaarn for. Very opinionated with little experience of what Isarn people actually think, I'd bet.

1. To Lickey – Is this the type of font difference that causes you concern? I typed it out myself - which I noted in the original post to which you refer - it is a different font type because I used MS Outlook - which is my primary word processor (i.e. email editor). Why did I do that - because as I originally noted in my post, I typed it out in sections - which I noted because there may have been some discontinuity in tone etc. which would have appeared fragmented. It took a while to type it out - I gave it a bit of thought - and I am at work, so I typed it out as and when I had the chance. I can assure you, I did not copy anything from another site - if I had I would have just referenced it, which would have been allot easier. If you read through it, and read through my other posts, you will hopefully see I use the same type of language and phrases throughout - the same type of punctuation - the same type of tone, and make reference to the same type of situations. If I had copied what someone else authored then I would need to be a pretty clever mimic to pull that off. So hopefully this explanation will alleviate your concerns?

2. "This guy seems to think himself an expert" - I have repeatedly stated in no uncertain terms that anything I type is my opinion, my personal belief, and that anyone reading should not take me literally or try to apply anything I write, to their own situation. I have further stated numerous times that I am not qualified to pass judgment on cultural practices of Thailand. All the replies I have put forward since the referenced post have, for the most part, been in response to other peoples queries / comments (all be they long winded). When people started "praising" me and started calling for my post to be pinned - I again asked that it be re-read with a little objectivity and highlighted that it is just the opinion of one person, and that my opinion, as should everyone else's, be taken with a pinch of salt. If I am an expert, in my own eyes or anyone else's for that matter – then I am an expert only in my own affairs, not in the affairs of others. I am a very pensive person – I think everything through, I try to consider all outcomes and eventualities and subsequently plan and do and say things that I feel represent a satisfactory outcome. To me, satisfactory means that I am happy with a result – and in the context of family members I would not be happy unless everyone was happy – unless a compromise that is satisfactory to all is reached……… in my little world, to do otherwise would simply spell future disaster if "bones of contention" keep rearing their ugly heads. What is wrong with that I would ask? I try to be master of my own destiny – not anyone else's…….. think myself an expert – I certainly do not.

3. "but refuses to tell us how long he has actually lived in Isaarn for" - I have never refused any such thing - I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that I typed somewhere I am a 30yr old Irish man, living in Ireland. I have spent considerable time in Isaan - where I own a modest home - I travel out twice a year - sometimes for a week - sometimes for a month - sometimes for several months…. Whatever work allows. I do not consider myself an "Isaan Resident" - but I am far from a tourist, and far from being unfamiliar with the area or customs. I have no secrets or ulterior motives, as your statement would seem to suggest. What possible motive would I have for that?

4. "Very opinionated with little experience of what Isarn people actually think, I'd bet." - very opinionate..... what's wrong with that - you see I have an opinion on a larger issue - you on the other hand have an opinion about me...... my opinion on that is found on the basis of considerable time spent in the region and socio-economic impact it has my marriage, my wife, my children, my life and my bank balance - what is your opinion of me based on? An hours worth of typing on an internet chat forum where we are all protected by the anonymity it affords us...... pot calling kettle black, no? As far as knowing what Isaan people actually think - who really knows that only Isaan people? I do not try to "know what they think" - I simply 'respond to a stimulus' as they say - what people treat you in a sincere and loving way, it is easy to recognise - that is how I am treated, as a reward for showing or at least trying to show that I have more than a superficial understanding and appreciation for their way of life. I go about my business, and conduct myself in a manner which I have best tried to describe in previous posts - it has worked for me, and that is all I have tried to say........[/size]

I have tried, in a sincere and honest way, to impart the things I have learned and observed over the last 6yrs or so, through a medium of this general discussion board. I have tried to temper my opinions by repeatedly stating that whilst I have had "success" (if that is the appropriate term) in integrating my culture with my wife's, that my approach is not for everyone – and by no means is it the right or wrong way to go about anything. An opinion is just that, an opinion – it cannot be right or wrong. I have put my opinion out there as honestly and sincerely as I can – I would hope that it would provoke thought in those who read it, and I accept that people will agree or disagree with anything that I have said. I think at this stage, perhaps I have become over involved in the topic. I come here to involve myself in general matters – not to be ridiculed or criticized at a personal level. To that end will refrain from typing further on the matter (other than to possibly defend myself, should same be required), since my ramblings is obviously causing offence. To anyone that I have offended, I sincerely apologize, for it was not my intention – I only mean well. Finally, I would conclude on the something which I have tried to highlight through – anything I type is my opinion – just that, an opinion – take is as you will, it is neither right or wrong, just my own interpretation of things as I see it – in the context of my personally situation.

From a reply I typed previsoulr (post #187):

"it is a dangerous persuit to try and portrait one mans opinion as fact - it is equally dangerous to live your life by another mans rules....... "Rules are for the obedience of fools and guidance of wise men" is something that springs to mind here. This is a sensitive topic, and I doubt very many people here are qualified to lay down the rules about what's right and wrong, and what should and should not be done - my approach is a very personal one - those less learned in the ways of Isaan etc. might take away some useful information from this, and it might be a good starting place for them...... for others it might not"

Frankly Corkman I dont think you need to justify any of your posts to anyone. That is not sycophantic praise just the simple acknowledgement that this forum, or any other forum, is about opinions. No one expects them to take on biblical significance - it is literally "up to you" for each reader to take what they want from such posts.

[corkman]

...... it is literally "up to you" for each reader to take what they want from such posts.

that is exaclty how I would hope anything I have typed would be received...... ....and exactly how it was intended to be read

Edited May 27, 2008 by corkman

[chuckd]

...... it is literally "up to you" for each reader to take what they want from such posts.

that is exaclty how I would hope anything I have typed would be received...... ....and exactly how it was intended to be read

...and that is exactly how most of us have read what you have written.

Disregard the naysayers. You don't have to post your credentials for anybody.

[Lickey]

Thankyou for your explanation of the print difference Corkman, no Mod will pin it, because its not true in all aspects of dowry ect, that decision remaims with the individual,

If i were to start over, i would make sure she is not still married or seeing another falang while im away, im with my mrs 24/7 and we are very happy, 2 err girls in the village married twice and parents got 2 lots of dowry and a monthly income from both falang!! Like i said before, common sense should prevail and respondents should be able to feel an atmosphere when meeting the parents ect,

UP TO YOU!!!

[gpdjohn]

Dont look at your GF with rose tinted glasses, look into her eyes, eyes are the window to the soul, and if That's what I thought - this guy seems to think himself an expert but refuses to tell us how long he has actually lived in Isaarn for. Very opinionated with little experience of what Isarn people actually think, I'd bet.

3. "but refuses to tell us how long he has actually lived in Isaarn for" - I have never refused any such thing - I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that I typed somewhere I am a 30yr old Irish man, living in Ireland. I have spent considerable time in Isaan - where I own a modest home - I travel out twice a year - sometimes for a week - sometimes for a month - sometimes for several months…. Whatever work allows. I do not consider myself an "Isaan Resident" - but I am far from a tourist, and far from being unfamiliar with the area or customs. I have no secrets or ulterior motives, as your statement would seem to suggest. What possible motive would I have for that?

Corker...

I like what you have posted..

but living in Ireland and visiting here for a week, a couple of weeks, a month, or a couple of months is completely different..

Do you speak, read and understand Thai ? If not, then you really don't understand thier culture. Just what they want you to understand...

I also had visions of the perfect Thai world and how I would fit into it...but that was before I lived here..

No, not in Issan, but Chiang Mai. Lanna not much different, folks all the same.

My eyes opened allot more now then before I moved here, full time...

I believe that unless you live here day in and day out and have that daily interaction between your culture and thiers..your view dosen't hold that much water.

Keep posting, they are interesting to read.

And yes, never mind the naysayers..keep typing.

[Lickey]

Dont look at your GF with rose tinted glasses, look into her eyes, eyes are the window to the soul, and if That's what I thought - this guy seems to think himself an expert but refuses to tell us how long he has actually lived in Isaarn for. Very opinionated with little experience of what Isarn people actually think, I'd bet.

gdjohn, the first part of the above quote is mine, i dont know if it was aimed at me, but i live here full time for 2 years now, im very aware of issan customs and religion,

Rgds Lickey.