Australian Aged Pension

[Olmate]

4 minutes ago, Tom A Hawk said:

Yep, that's the way I have been playing it.  I don't want to be served the questions because I have logged in. 

 

They know I am not in Australia so how long can I get away with being like the three wise monkeys? 

 

How long before your physical absence from Australia overrides the porkie that you have the intention of returning?

 

Strange that some have received that MyGov letter and some haven't.  It could be in there waiting for me but I don't want to find out if it is. 

You will get email re pending mygov message, check that.If nothing inbox all good. You seem para on this issue. Thats utube click bait is all.

[Tom A Hawk]

22 minutes ago, Olmate said:

You will get email re pending mygov message, check that.If nothing inbox all good. You seem para on this issue. Thats utube click bait is all.

You don't believe everything you see on the internet so I looked for those questions on their website. 

 

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/centrelink-online-account-help-travelling-outside-australia

 

Down the page you will see this "It may affect your payment if you don’t know the date you’ll return. If you’re going to live in another country, it can also affect your payment." 

 

Looks like if you don't tell them you are going overseas then border control tell them and they send you the questions. 

 

Losing some supplements is no problem but losing 30% is a bit rough. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Tom A Hawk

[LosLobo]

38 minutes ago, Tom A Hawk said:

My reasoning for not wanting to log in is because once I log in, there may be that message from them sitting there and it will start the 28 days clock on it, just like the guy in the video.  It's like they have served it on me electronically. 

 

You suggest I don't lie, but aren't people saying they have the intention to return to Australia but they actually don't?  Just look at the guy in the video again.  He said on the video, "Have you permanently shifted overseas? The answer is no" and then at the end of the video he shows his big new house.  I know having a house in Thailand doesn't mean someone has moved there permanently but it looks like he has.

 

Did you tell them you were going to live in Australia but were really gonna live in Thailand?

 

Say I answer "no" as well but a year later I still haven't gone back.  How long before the next declaration is sent to me and how can I keep saying "no" before they call BS on my answers because they know I haven't been back?  I will go back for a few weeks to see my kids but I am living in Thailand now. 

 

What is the point of these questions if everyone can keep saying they haven't permanently left Australia when they actually have and they know you haven't returned for a long time? 

Sorry I was under the wrong impression that you already had some notification from Centrelink.

 

My policy in life is why worry about something that might never happen.

 

Nevertheless you still have a requirement to notify Centrelink when you are going to live in another country.

 

You still might be getting some supplements which change after six weeks away and a rate which you are not entitled to.

 

See some of the rules below:

 

When you get an Aged Pension, you need to tell us you’re leaving Australia in some situations.

 

You need to tell us about your travel if any of these apply.

You:

       are going to live in another country

       will be away for more than 6 weeks

       get Age Pension under a social security agreement with another country

       are leaving Australia within 2 years after coming back to live               and started getting a Pension  

       or you or your partner are getting income from employment.

 

If your Centrelink online account is linked to myGov, you can tell us about your travel plans online.

 

If you don’t have these, you’ll need to create them.

 

Sign in to myGov

 

When and how to tell us about overseas travel if you get Age Pension - Age Pension - Services Australia

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by LosLobo

[scorecard]

Yes, I signin every few months, for several years, did it just last week. 

 

No outstanding messages.

 

I've never had any messages/letters etc., from C'link asking me whether i'm coming back etc., except for about 5 years back when I returned and applied for the OAP. 

 

About 4 or 5 days later I got a letter on myGov asking if I had any plans for o'seas travel in the near future. I replied NO. As said that's about 5 years back, never heard from them ever again.

[scorecard]

6 minutes ago, Tom A Hawk said:

You don't believe everything you see on the internet so I looked for those questions on their website. 

 

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/centrelink-online-account-help-travelling-outside-australia

 

Down the page you will see this "It may affect your payment if you don’t know the date you’ll return. If you’re going to live in another country, it can also affect your payment." 

 

Looks like if you don't tell them you are going overseas then border control tell them and they send you the questions. 

Remebering that border force knows you departed Oz and the date/time but they don't know where you are going.

[Lacessit]

56 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Remebering that border force knows you departed Oz and the date/time but they don't know where you are going.

Border Force knows where you are. Centrelink knows where you are. Overseas, IMO they don't care where. As evidenced by the removal of supplements after six weeks absence, and their reinstatement after returning to Oz.

I doubt the ATO knows where you are, otherwise they would start taxing pensioners at 31.5% after 1 or 2 years' absence. Unless you tell them.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Lacessit

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, Tom A Hawk said:

s. 

 

Losing some supplements is no problem but losing 30% is a bit rough. 

You would only start losing 30% if 1/ the ATO knew you had left Australia permanently 2/ The ATO had classed you as non-resident for tax purposes 3/ You had submitted a tax return.

While the ATO apparently has the power to garnishee wages, I have not heard of them doing it with the OAP.

[Tom A Hawk]

1 hour ago, LosLobo said:

Sorry I was under the wrong impression that you already had some notification from Centrelink.

 

My policy in life is why worry about something that might never happen.

 

Nevertheless you still have a requirement to notify Centrelink when you are going to live in another country.

 

You still might be getting some supplements which change after six weeks away and a rate which you are not entitled to.

 

See some of the rules below:

 

When you get an Aged Pension, you need to tell us you’re leaving Australia in some situations.

 

You need to tell us about your travel if any of these apply.

You:

       are going to live in another country

       will be away for more than 6 weeks

       get Age Pension under a social security agreement with another country

       are leaving Australia within 2 years after coming back to live               and started getting a Pension  

       or you or your partner are getting income from employment.

 

If your Centrelink online account is linked to myGov, you can tell us about your travel plans online.

 

If you don’t have these, you’ll need to create them.

 

Sign in to myGov

 

When and how to tell us about overseas travel if you get Age Pension - Age Pension - Services Australia

 

I lost the supplements many months ago.  No problem.  I expected that.  I have a MyGov account, just haven't signed in since I started paying attention to this forum and things on youtube and on the internet about retirees having to pay the tax for living overseas. 

 

I can still get by with a 30% drop but my social life will have to take a bit of a hit.  If they are gonna do it I wish they would just get on with it so I can know where I stand and can move on with my life. 

[Tom A Hawk]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Yes, I signin every few months, for several years, did it just last week. 

 

No outstanding messages.

 

I've never had any messages/letters etc., from C'link asking me whether i'm coming back etc., except for about 5 years back when I returned and applied for the OAP. 

 

About 4 or 5 days later I got a letter on myGov asking if I had any plans for o'seas travel in the near future. I replied NO. As said that's about 5 years back, never heard from them ever again.

I've got a mate coming in 2 weeks and he's staying for 2 weeks.  I will log in to my MyGov account not long after he gets here.  If it's there waiting for me I'll answer the same way as the guy in the video and give it to my mate to take home and post for me.  It should get to them before the 28 days. 

 

If it's not there, I've got no idea why some get it and some don't. 

 

Looks like that guy in the video built a nice big house.  Could it be he transferred more than $10k AUD out of Australia for the house and they jammed this letter into him?   I only rent here so not big transfers. 

[Tom A Hawk]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Remebering that border force knows you departed Oz and the date/time but they don't know where you are going.

Why would they care where I am going?  All they need to know is I am not in Australia.  That's the cause of all of this, isn't it? 

[Will27]

41 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Border Force knows where you are. Centrelink knows where you are. Overseas, IMO they don't care where. As evidenced by the removal of supplements after six weeks absence, and their reinstatement after returning to Oz.

I doubt the ATO knows where you are, otherwise they would start taxing pensioners at 31.5% after 1 or 2 years' absence. Unless you tell them.

Border Force don't really know where you are or care in most cases.

They can really only look at your departing flight and what you put on a passenger card.

[Will27]

13 minutes ago, Tom A Hawk said:

I lost the supplements many months ago.  No problem.  I expected that.  I have a MyGov account, just haven't signed in since I started paying attention to this forum and things on youtube and on the internet about retirees having to pay the tax for living overseas. 

 

I can still get by with a 30% drop but my social life will have to take a bit of a hit.  If they are gonna do it I wish they would just get on with it so I can know where I stand and can move on with my life. 

Like LosLobo said, no use worrying over something that might not happen.

 

Sure, be aware of it and even have a contingency plan if you need one.

[Tom A Hawk]

39 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Border Force knows where you are. Centrelink knows where you are. Overseas, IMO they don't care where. As evidenced by the removal of supplements after six weeks absence, and their reinstatement after returning to Oz.

I doubt the ATO knows where you are, otherwise they would start taxing pensioners at 31.5% after 1 or 2 years' absence. Unless you tell them.

I don't reckon border force and CL know where you are but they don't need to know where you are to start cutting the money.  They just need to know you are not in Australia.

 

i don't get your last sentence.  If border force and CL know you are not in Australia why wouldn't the ATO?  They are all federal not state. 

 

Is it 1 or 2 years when you go from being on a holiday to being an expat? 

[Will27]

1 minute ago, Tom A Hawk said:

I don't reckon border force and CL know where you are but they don't need to know where you are to start cutting the money.  They just need to know you are not in Australia.

 

i don't get your last sentence.  If border force and CL know you are not in Australia why wouldn't the ATO?  They are all federal not state. 

 

Is it 1 or 2 years when you go from being on a holiday to being an expat? 

Centrelink monitor your movements so they can adjust your pension.

 

The ATO doesn't feel the need or have the resources to monitor everyone's movements in Australia.

Obviously they can get access to your records if need be though.

[Tom A Hawk]

41 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You would only start losing 30% if 1/ the ATO knew you had left Australia permanently 2/ The ATO had classed you as non-resident for tax purposes 3/ You had submitted a tax return.

While the ATO apparently has the power to garnishee wages, I have not heard of them doing it with the OAP.

This is the part I can't get my head around.  Border force and CL know I have left Australia and not been back for nearly a year.  I lost some supplements but not the 30%.  When is CL going to decide that I am an expat and living overseas and send the 30% to the ATO? 

 

Is it maybe the ATO doesn't know I have left Australia so they don't tell CL to take the 30%.  If that continues it sounds too good to be true.  It can't be that easy. 

[Tom A Hawk]

15 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Like LosLobo said, no use worrying over something that might not happen.

 

Sure, be aware of it and even have a contingency plan if you need one.

I've got a few irons in the fire back in Australia I can cash out if I need to.  I just never expected that I might have to use them because of paying tax for living overseas.  You know what they say about death and taxes. 

[Lacessit]

29 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Centrelink monitor your movements so they can adjust your pension.

 

The ATO doesn't feel the need or have the resources to monitor everyone's movements in Australia.

Obviously they can get access to your records if need be though.

IMO the only way the ATO will pick up on anyone is if one gets caught by a random audit.

Said audits probably have a threshold, below which income level it simply is not worth their while.

I got audited once, when I was earning big bucks.

They have much bigger fish to fry, starting with profit-shifting multi-nationals.

[Lacessit]

32 minutes ago, Tom A Hawk said:

This is the part I can't get my head around.  Border force and CL know I have left Australia and not been back for nearly a year.  I lost some supplements but not the 30%.  When is CL going to decide that I am an expat and living overseas and send the 30% to the ATO? 

 

Is it maybe the ATO doesn't know I have left Australia so they don't tell CL to take the 30%.  If that continues it sounds too good to be true.  It can't be that easy. 

You worry too much. It is not Centrelink's function to levy taxes on pensions, unless our resident prophet of doom has that in his batch of predictions.

The ATO will start levying 31.5% tax on you when it decides you are no longer an Australian tax resident. That then depends on individual circumstances, under current regulations.

[Will27]

13 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

IMO the only way the ATO will pick up on anyone is if one gets caught by a random audit.

Said audits probably have a threshold, below which income level it simply is not worth their while.

I got audited once, when I was earning big bucks.

They have much bigger fish to fry, starting with profit-shifting multi-nationals.

Pretty much correct.

The ATO performs audits on occupation, dob-ins (not all obviously) and like you said, randomly.

 

The chances of getting a random audit on a low income are pretty remote.

Like you said, in most cases, it's not worth the time or effort.

[Will27]

11 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You worry too much. It is not Centrelink's function to levy taxes on pensions, unless our resident prophet of doom has that in his batch of predictions.

The ATO will start levying 31.5% tax on you when it decides you are no longer an Australian tax resident. That then depends on individual circumstances, under current regulations.

He has.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Will27

[Lacessit]

47 minutes ago, Tom A Hawk said:

I don't reckon border force and CL know where you are but they don't need to know where you are to start cutting the money.  They just need to know you are not in Australia.

 

i don't get your last sentence.  If border force and CL know you are not in Australia why wouldn't the ATO?  They are all federal not state. 

 

Is it 1 or 2 years when you go from being on a holiday to being an expat? 

You are assuming Border Force communicates everyone's whereabouts to the ATO. IMO the ATO are too busy to keep track of everyone's location, even if they were given the information.

 

It would be difficult for the ATO to classify someone as an expat if said expat was locked out of Australia due to COVID. I have been in Thailand non-stop for 3 years, no-one has said anything. Prior to that, I was returning to Australia every six months.

 

I have no idea what time frame converts one to expat status. As previously stated, it depends on individual circumstances.

[scorecard]

54 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You are assuming Border Force communicates everyone's whereabouts to the ATO. IMO the ATO are too busy to keep track of everyone's location, even if they were given the information.

 

It would be difficult for the ATO to classify someone as an expat if said expat was locked out of Australia due to COVID. I have been in Thailand non-stop for 3 years, no-one has said anything. Prior to that, I was returning to Australia every six months.

 

I have no idea what time frame converts one to expat status. As previously stated, it depends on individual circumstances.

Just wondering if there's 2 different circumstances within these threads:

 

1. An Oz citizen who gained the OAP some time ago whilst resident in Oz, and hasn't ever lived abroad, but takes holidays / longer hols maybe 6 , 8 etc., weeks then returns to Oz. Seems that in this circumstance away over 6 weekd invokes some reductions in overall pension, but when this person returns full pension is restored.

 

2. An OZ citizen who has been outside of OZ a long time, returns and immediately lodges an application for the OAP. Then after 2 years back in Oz qualifies for 'portability' and gets moved to the 4 weekly payment cycle, funds sent abroad. But the pension amount is reduced by only one item, no longer entitled to the 'energy allowance'.

Any 'Six weeks away' clauses not in the overall picture / circumstances that I can see.

 

I'm in 'Type 2' just above, achieved portability (several years ago), now back in LOS and never received any correspondence from C'link or the ATO. (Yes I do check myGov often enough to see if there any correspondence needing attention.) 

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

Just wondering if there's 2 different circumstances within these threads:

 

1. An Oz citizen who gained the OAP some time ago whilst resident in Oz, and hasn't ever lived abroad, but takes holidays / longer hols maybe 6 , 8 etc., weeks then returns to Oz. Seems that in this circumstance away over 6 weekd invokes some reductions in overall pension, but when this person returns full pension is restored.

 

2. An OZ citizen who has been outside of OZ a long time, returns and immediately lodges an application for the OAP. Then after 2 years back in Oz qualifies for 'portability' and gets moved to the 4 weekly payment cycle, funds sent abroad. But the pension amount is reduced by only one item, no longer entitled to the 'energy allowance'.

Any 'Six weeks away' clauses not in the overall picture / circumstances that I can see.

 

I'm in 'Type 2' just above, achieved portability (several years ago), now back in LOS and never received any correspondence from C'link or the ATO. (Yes I do check myGov often enough to see if there any correspondence needing attention.) 

Hoping for some comments / confirmation on my post immediately above. 

[Olmate]

7 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Hoping for some comments / confirmation on my post immediately above. 

There is no one on here in your Cat 1. scenario that would be concerned so whats your point? Your 2. is probably not the average expat. either I would guess. Most would have retired, got pension then moved here 'for a long holiday',! ????

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

Just wondering if there's 2 different circumstances within these threads:

 

1. An Oz citizen who gained the OAP some time ago whilst resident in Oz, and hasn't ever lived abroad, but takes holidays / longer hols maybe 6 , 8 etc., weeks then returns to Oz. Seems that in this circumstance away over 6 weekd invokes some reductions in overall pension, but when this person returns full pension is restored.

 

2. An OZ citizen who has been outside of OZ a long time, returns and immediately lodges an application for the OAP. Then after 2 years back in Oz qualifies for 'portability' and gets moved to the 4 weekly payment cycle, funds sent abroad. But the pension amount is reduced by only one item, no longer entitled to the 'energy allowance'.

Any 'Six weeks away' clauses not in the overall picture / circumstances that I can see.

 

I'm in 'Type 2' just above, achieved portability (several years ago), now back in LOS and never received any correspondence from C'link or the ATO. (Yes I do check myGov often enough to see if there any correspondence needing attention.) 

I am category 1. Pre-COVID, I was returning to Oz about every 6-7 months for 4-6 weeks, then going back to Thailand for another 6-7 months.

I get my pension paid fortnightly into an Australian bank account. I usually let the account accumulate to $10,000, then transfer to a Thai bank.

I don't notify Centrelink when I have returned, Border Force does that. The supplements are usually restored  after a fortnight or two has elapsed.

I notify Centrelink when I leave, the supplements cut off after six weeks. I  had this pattern of travel for about ten years, until COVID messed up the world.

I have not submitted a tax return for 3 years.

[scorecard]

7 hours ago, Tom A Hawk said:

This is the part I can't get my head around.  Border force and CL know I have left Australia and not been back for nearly a year.  I lost some supplements but not the 30%.  When is CL going to decide that I am an expat and living overseas and send the 30% to the ATO? 

 

Is it maybe the ATO doesn't know I have left Australia so they don't tell CL to take the 30%.  If that continues it sounds too good to be true.  It can't be that easy. 

I went back to Oz to submit my OAP application as reqired. I'd been living outside of Oz for nearly 30 years.

 

I flew into Sydney, next day I went to the local big C'link office to get a CRN number and to prove my identity. All easy and plesant.

 

The pleasant / polite C.link lady had noticed I had put a thck pile of papers with a clip on the side of her desk.

 

She asked "Is that your OAP application and Asset and Income statements?" I replied "YES"

 

She continued "Is it completed?" I replied "Yes, I think it's ready to submit."

 

She continued "Would you like me to scan your application to be sure it's ready?" I responded "yes please".

 

She looked carefully at each question on the OAP application form then looked at the box I had ticked, then the next question.

 

She got to the section where the OAP applicant has to enter their personl ATO number and she said politely "Do you understand why the application form asks for your tax personal tax file number?"

I responed "NO".

 

She continued:

- "To be eligible for the OAP you have to have at some time in the past paid Australian personal Tax*. When / how long you paid, total paid is not relevant."

"Quoting your Tax file number (no other detail) is seen as proof that you have sometime in the past paid personal Australian tax".

(* She also mentioned there are a few exceptions to this policy but very rarely accepted.). 

 

She continued "When you submit your application it goes direct, online to C.link HO in Canberra and It's processed by computer, your application is not processed at a local C.link office."

 

She continued, when the receiving computer in Canberra sees your personal tax file number the computer automatically:

- Ticks a box that you have fulfilled the requirement that you have at some time in the past paid Australian tax.

- Then deletes your personal tax file number from the C'link records.

 

The C.link lady continued, "C'link doesn't actively work with the ATO and gov't policy is that ATO records are totally private."

 

Can things change?

Yes of course, change is part of life. 

 

Further... when the 2 years back in Oz almot completed I called the 132 300 Older Australians Line.

I said to the C'link officer "i'm not sure i understand what 'portability' means. She looked at her screen then said:

- in 10 days time you will be entitled to 'portability', which means you are entitled to receive the standard OAP payments and supplement for the rest of your life anywhere in the world. And If you wish to live abroad C.link will change you to the 4 weekly payments cycle and transfer your 4 weekly payments to any bank you nominate anywhere in the world, it can be an account in your own name or a joint savings account. 

- She continued 'If you need more advice or help to make this happen please call again.

 

She cntinued "You will need to submit a new form quoting all your bank details abroad, and as she was talking she had e.mailed the blank form to me. She continued, "please don't forget to complete the details then take the form to your bank abroad and get them to sign the form and add their bank stamp".

She continued "I have added the secure C.link e.mail address where you need to return the completed banking form.

 

I asked " do i have to get permission to depart OZ?" She responded:

 

- The C.link policy is that you should advise C'link of your ravel plans but it's not compulsory.

 

- Within 48 hrs of e.mailing the completed new banking details form I got a call from C'link, the poliye young man said "This call is just to be sure there's no errors in reading your new bank account number" he continued "I willl say 2 numbers the stop and can you please cnfirm I ave said the correct number, then 2 more and 2 more numbers until it's all completed".

 

Then he asked me to do the same process in reverse.

 

Then he mentioned 'It will take a few weeks to get you fully into the 4 weekly cycle, the he quoted and repeated dates and amounts.

 

The payments arrived into K bank as he had quoted. 

[Tom A Hawk]

19 hours ago, Lacessit said:

IMO the only way the ATO will pick up on anyone is if one gets caught by a random audit.

Said audits probably have a threshold, below which income level it simply is not worth their while.

I got audited once, when I was earning big bucks.

They have much bigger fish to fry, starting with profit-shifting multi-nationals.

From what the other guy on here says a lot, isn't it border force that is going to start the audit by telling the ATO and CL about every Aussie outside of Australia for more than 6 months? 

 

I don't really have much for them to audit accept for me being outside of Australia and maybe owing them 30% more tax because I am overseas. 

[scorecard]

2 minutes ago, Tom A Hawk said:

From what the other guy on here says a lot, isn't it border force that is going to start the audit by telling the ATO and CL about every Aussie outside of Australia for more than 6 months? 

 

I don't really have much for them to audit accept for me being outside of Australia and maybe owing them 30% more tax because I am overseas. 

"..., isn't it border force that is going to start the audit by telling the ATO and CL about every Aussie outside of Australia for more than 6 months? "

 

Where did that gem come from? 

Is that the purpose for existence of Oz border force? 

[Tom A Hawk]

19 hours ago, Lacessit said:

You worry too much. It is not Centrelink's function to levy taxes on pensions, unless our resident prophet of doom has that in his batch of predictions.

The ATO will start levying 31.5% tax on you when it decides you are no longer an Australian tax resident. That then depends on individual circumstances, under current regulations.

That's the way it works now but what about if the new rules come in?  Will the ATO start putting the 30% tax on everyone because they will know you are living overseas?

[Tom A Hawk]

2 minutes ago, scorecard said:

"..., isn't it border force that is going to start the audit by telling the ATO and CL about every Aussie outside of Australia for more than 6 months? "

 

Where did that gem come from? 

Is that the purpose for existence of Oz border force? 

CL know you are not in Australia.  Isn't it border force that tells them?  What if border force starts telling the ATO as well?