Australian Aged Pension

[KhunHeineken]

56 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

My advice would be to marry a Thai, if they are not married already. Then they would only be taking a very small hit in terms of Thai taxation.

Marry a Thai to avoid Thai taxation policy.  Great advice. 

Edited January 19 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

53 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

how do you know the age pension will not be exempted from the resident-non-resident determination of tax status?

Nothing mentioned in the proposed changes says it will be exempted, nor means / asset tested, nor a new tax free threshold added to non resident tax rates.  If they wanted to give pensioners a free pass, I am sure these would have been mentioned, but they weren't. 

 

Read the link.

 

https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s0000002ngF/p00172380

 

It's tax expat pensioners should have been paying for years, and the government is proposing legislation to be finally able to collect it. 

 

What part can't you understand about it? 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

39 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I would say you didn't read my full post ?

 

Extract: 

 

There is NOTHING that says Age Pensioners have to pay tax if they live overseas.

I would say, did you read the link?  It comes from the ATO community website.  A member of staff answered an inquiry about this very point, yet, you chose to ignore in the hope that if you post your interpretation, the law and the fact will become untrue.  It's laughable. 

 

42 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I believe where people get their nickers twisted is when the Age Pension is assessable income, i.e. when other sources of income come into the mix, e.g. hypothetically speaking, if I am a non resident, and I am on the Age Pension and I am living overseas and I make an income from other sources, then I have to file a tax return and ALL of it goes into the mix and gets taxed, the only difference is there is no $18,200 threshold, plus the tax rate is higher for non residents.

Let's not talk about what you believe.  Let's talk about Australian Tax Law.

 

Put simply, a pension is deemed to be an income.  A pension is taxable.  There is no tax free threshold for non residents.  If the proposed changes go through, you will be deemed to be a non resident after 183 days outside of Australia.  Do you agree or disagree with this simple summary?

 

45 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

If you are a non resident and you don't have any other source of income, then your pension is not assessable, same if you are a resident in Australia.

 

This all makes sense to me, and that is why they don't tax Australian's on the Age Pension and non residents on the Age Pension. 

 

No, the game changes once you are deemed to be a non resident. 

 

They haven't been able to implement the tax / withholding pension because of loopholes in 90 year old laws.  Why do you think they proposed the changes? 

[KhunHeineken]

56 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Again, you didn't read my post, you cannot find anything in the legislation that states that an Age Pensioner has to pay the 32c in the $ if they live overseas, look at the keyword I highlighted in bold from the ATO link, which means squat if your only source of income is the Age Pension when you live overseas.

Again, the pension is deemed an income.  The pension is taxable.  There is no tax free threshold for non residents.  Show me how these add up to pensioners don't have to pay non resident tax?  

 

Read the link again.  Tell me, what question would you ask "Blake" from the ATO?  What argument would you put to Blake from the ATO as to why your pension is exempt when he has already told "Bob" he has to pay non resident tax on his pension if living overseas. 

 

56 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Note the key word below is all income, but if your only source of income is the Age Pension, you won't pay tax on it, same as in Australia.

 

If you disagree, then put up, show US where it says the Age Pension is taxable by it's self if you are a non resident.

 

I have posted a link where the exact point of debate on this thread has been put to a member of the ATO who has replied pensioner living overseas are liable for non resident tax.  The link is not my opinion, or my interpretation. 

 

Why don't you comment on this guy's channel and tell him he's wrong also? 

 

 

56 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

As a foreign resident for tax purposes, you will pay income tax according to foreign resident rates. This means for all income under $180k, you'll pay 32.5c per dollar. You would only report and pay tax on your Australian-sourced income to us.

Too funny.

 

How many times do I, and other members, have to tell you a pension is deemed to be an income, and is taxable.  If you insist a pension is neither, please post a link. 

Edited January 19 by KhunHeineken

[Nemises]

6 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

It's tax expat pensioners should have been paying for years, and the government is proposing legislation to be finally able to collect it. 

When is the "proposed" date of legislation please? 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Nemises said:

When is the "proposed" date of legislation please? 

Click on "Consultation paper." 

 

https://treasury.gov.au/consultation/c2023-205344#:~:text=This measure was announced by,be an Australian tax resident.

 

The paper was drafted July 23 and open for submissions that closed in September 23. 

 

Here's just one of the clauses:

 

"A strict day count ensures that residency outcomes are clear, the rules are administrable, and disputes are avoided. Allowing days to be excluded in certain circumstances may undermine these benefits." 

 

Once again, the "bright line test" of 183 days of physical presence, or, 45 days and meeting two of the factor tests.  The factor tests are not difficult to meet, but as another member pointed out previously, it may be financially beneficial for some members to just pay the 32.5% non resident tax on their pension because it may end up cheaper then airfares, accommodation, and cost of living in Australia. 

 

The current Labor government are aware of the proposed changes and have not binned them, which tells me it's not if, but when they are legislated.  

[Nemises]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

which tells me it's not if, but when they are legislated.  

Thanks, but the question is about "when". The link doesn't say when it might be legislated. So once again, do you know when we will finally know if there will be any legislation change? Budget night? End of fiscal year? End of calendar year? 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 20 by Nemises

[Lacessit]

9 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Marry a Thai to avoid Thai taxation policy.  Great advice. 

It's better than none at all, which is what you have posted.

[4MyEgo]

9 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

They haven't been able to implement the tax / withholding pension because of loopholes in 90 year old laws.  Why do you think they proposed the changes? 

 

Please do provide this link so that I can b brought up to speed.

[4MyEgo]

9 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Tell me, what question would you ask "Blake" from the ATO?  What argument would you put to Blake from the ATO as to why your pension is exempt when he has already told "Bob" he has to pay non resident tax on his pension if living overseas. 

 

To provide the link to the legislation that states that to be the case.

 

Do you believe everything you read, ask yourself this, how many times have you heard, Centrelink, Services Australia, the ATO said this, yet the staff who play many roles, with the staff getting it wrong, hence providing a link to the legislation makes things concrete as opposed to what "Blake" from the ATO said in an ATO thread.

 

Conclusion "Blake" is WRONG. 

[Will27]

13 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

From my extensive research on the Age Pension over the years, it is clearly written that the Australian Age Pension is not taxable in Australia if it is your only source of income, however if you receive other money, be it from dividends, working part time etc etc, then it all gets assessed on the Australian Taxation Scale, meaning your Age Pension also gets taxed, as all the income is in one basket, lets not forget you get the $18,200 tax free threshold.

 

Google, copied and pasted:

 

The Age Pension forms part of your taxable income. However, if it is your only source of retirement income, you will pay no tax. If you're on the Age Pension, you also receive health benefits and reduced charges on rates, telephones, gas and electricity, car registration and public transport.

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/income-deductions-offsets-and-records/income-you-must-declare/government-payments-and-allowances#ato-Taxfreegovernmentpensionsorbenefits

 

Now, as far as I can see, the Age Pension has not come up anywhere in writing as being taxable overseas, that's because it's not, and will not be come 1 July 2024. The rate of 32% as some scaremongers are and have suggested won't happen, why, because it is not assessable income in Australia if you have no other source of income, now read that last part again, yep, my interpretation is, because the Age Pension is not assessable income in Australia if you have no other source of income, then it won't be taxed, regardless if your living overseas, suffice to say I know a few on the Oz Age Pension living here for years and they don't pay tax, and they are non residents.

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/coming-to-australia-or-going-overseas/your-tax-residency

 

There is NOTHING that says Age Pensioners have to pay tax if they live overseas.

 

I believe where people get their nickers twisted is when the Age Pension is assessable income, i.e. when other sources of income come into the mix, e.g. hypothetically speaking, if I am a non resident, and I am on the Age Pension and I am living overseas and I make an income from other sources, then I have to file a tax return and it ALL of it goes into the mix and gets taxed, the only difference is there is no $18,200 threshold, plus the tax rate is higher for non residents.

 

If you are a non resident and you don't have any other source of income, then your pension is not assessable, same if you are a resident in Australia.

 

This all makes sense to me, and that is why they don't tax Australian's on the Age Pension and non residents on the Age Pension. 

 

Those saying that come 1 July is going to be a bad day for Australian Age Pensioners who are non residents are unfortunately talking BS in my opinion. I will stand corrected if they can back it up with some link stating the obvious, i.e. that overseas Age Pensioners who are non residents are taxed at 32%, now please don't send me an ATO link where someone online sent in a query and was told they pay 32% tax, that is because they also have an income on top of their Age Pension.

 

Now to cover something else you mentioned later on in a post regarding tax in Thailand.

 

I copied and pasted the below, so I can't take credit for it, and as it was from another source I suggest you and others peruse it, as it does make sense.

 

Income that is remitted to Thailand is assessable in Thailand, funds that remain outside Thailand are not. If we take the simplest type of income and say that you transfer personal savings from overseas to Thailand and those savings were earned before 1 January 2024, those funds are not assessable. But savings earned after that date are, hence the date when the income is earned is extremely important. A word of caution, you may be asked to provide proof that savings were earned before 1 January 2024.

 

 

Another common type of income is pensions, which can be complicated, depending on the type of pension and the country that it comes from. The country of origin is important because there are over 60 different types of Dual Tax Agreements, sometimes called Double Taxation Agreements (DTA’s), between Thailand and those 60+ countries and each one is different. As a general rule, most private or company pensions from most countries appear to be assessable here but YOU will need to confirm that yours is or is not. If that is true, private and company pension income IS assessable income in Thailand.

 

US Social Security payments, a form of pension paid to some older people, can only be taxed by the US under DTA rules and Thailand is forbidden from taxing them, this means those payments are NOT assessable income. UK State pension on the other hand is not covered by a DTA so it is assessable income in Thailand whilst UK Government or Civil Service and NHS pensions are not! Australian old age pension is assessable income in Thailand. 

 

Taxable Income per year (Baht) Tax rate:

 

0 – 150,000 Exempt

150,000 – 300,000 5%

300,000 – 500,000 10%

500,000 – 750,000 15%

1,000,000 – 2,000,000 25%

2,000,000 – 4,000,000 30%

Over 4,000,000 35%

 

The Thai tax system contains a series of Allowances, Deductions and Exemptions that will help you reduce your tax bill and they are very generous. It is easily possible for the average expat foreign retiree to reduce their taxable income by 500,000 baht or more each year. For example, a retiree aged 65 years of age, married and living here full time, supporting a Thai wife who has no income and doesn’t file tax return, is allowed the following:

 

 

a. Personal Allowance for self - 60,000

b. Personal Allowance for wife - 60,000

c. Over age 65 years exemption - 190,000

d. 50% of pension income received, up to 100k - 100,000

e. In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax

 

 

Additional deductions and allowances exist for health or life insurance premiums paid in Thailand. A complete list of deductions, allowances and exemptions can be found here

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html  or from Sherrings below.

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

I HOPE THE ABOVE HELPS CLEAR THINGS UPS, WITHOUT GETTING INTO A TENNIS MATCH WITH SOME.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mate

I don't agree with your take on this.

 

Assessable income and thresholds don't come into it IMO, if you're classed as a non-resident. 

That's pretty straight forward.

 

I'm betting the people you know here receiving the OAP class themselves as residents.

In fact, I would be staggered if someone receiving the OAP declared themselves as a non-resident didn't pay any tax.

[4MyEgo]

13 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Mate

I don't agree with your take on this.

 

Assessable income and thresholds don't come into it IMO, if you're classed as a non-resident. 

That's pretty straight forward.

 

I'm betting the people you know here receiving the OAP class themselves as residents.

In fact, I would be staggered if someone receiving the OAP declared themselves as a non-resident didn't pay any tax.

 

Fair enough mate, we all have different opinions and that's ok, hence the reason we are discussing the issue at hand.

 

The guys I know have been here for decades and don't lodge tax returns, and one of them worked overseas for years.

 

I don't believe anyone declares themselves as non residents when they leave Australia, perhaps except for myself as I earn interest from banks & they with hold tax and give it to the ATO. My other investments are not taxable as a non resident or the tax is already taken out when payments are made to me.

 

Th pension is interesting to me because I am 50/50 on getting applying for it when the time arrives, albeit it the 2 years in jail is the stickler i.e. is it feasible for me, and from what I have worked out, it isn't unless I buy a 2 bedroom pad for that period vs renting, but that would then mean taking my funds out of investments which earn me money, so there would be a loss of income for those 2 years, and I earn more than what the pension would provide me, anyways, it is what it is and we will cross that road when the time comes, depending on what the world is doing and how economics play out then.

 

The question I have is why haven't Age Pensioners being paying tax while overseas and all of a sudden there is TALK that's all, TALK that things are going to change come 1 July 2024 because they are going to change the days that will determine your residency status.

 

Now Centrelink are linked up to border control and know when you leave the country, as soon as you pass through immigration, and if you are on the dole, your payments stop straight away, and as soon as you enter the country, they start again.

 

The above said, why doesn't that happen with the Age Pensioner, ask yourself that, it's because Age Pensioners have the right to exit without an issue, even though the same government department is paying you.

 

I don't like TALK, links to government legislation is what I read and like to see, because that is what makes law.

 

Until such time I see that Age Pensioners are taxable if they live overseas on their Age Pension, then I am sticking with what I hear at the coal face with the guys I know that live here and don't pay tax on their Age Pensions, can you name one you know that pays tax as a non resident, just asking for a friend :)

  

[Nemises]

12 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

unless I buy a 2 bedroom pad for that period vs renting,

Mate be mindful of the current falling market in some areas of Sydney! From memory you too are also from the St G area of Sydney, so this excerpt from p22 of today’s Syd Telegraph article on the subject maybe of interest:

 

“Ramsgate Beach was also the coastal suburb with the biggest fall in prices over the past year, with unit values dropping by an average of about 27 per cent or $329,000”

 

I can PM you the full article if interested.
 

Just trying to help, not alarm. 

[Will27]

23 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Fair enough mate, we all have different opinions and that's ok, hence the reason we are discussing the issue at hand.

 

The guys I know have been here for decades and don't lodge tax returns, and one of them worked overseas for years.

 

I don't believe anyone declares themselves as non residents when they leave Australia, perhaps except for myself as I earn interest from banks & they with hold tax and give it to the ATO. My other investments are not taxable as a non resident or the tax is already taken out when payments are made to me.

 

Th pension is interesting to me because I am 50/50 on getting applying for it when the time arrives, albeit it the 2 years in jail is the stickler i.e. is it feasible for me, and from what I have worked out, it isn't unless I buy a 2 bedroom pad for that period vs renting, but that would then mean taking my funds out of investments which earn me money, so there would be a loss of income for those 2 years, and I earn more than what the pension would provide me, anyways, it is what it is and we will cross that road when the time comes, depending on what the world is doing and how economics play out then.

 

The question I have is why haven't Age Pensioners being paying tax while overseas and all of a sudden there is TALK that's all, TALK that things are going to change come 1 July 2024 because they are going to change the days that will determine your residency status.

 

Now Centrelink are linked up to border control and know when you leave the country, as soon as you pass through immigration, and if you are on the dole, your payments stop straight away, and as soon as you enter the country, they start again.

 

The above said, why doesn't that happen with the Age Pensioner, ask yourself that, it's because Age Pensioners have the right to exit without an issue, even though the same government department is paying you.

 

I don't like TALK, links to government legislation is what I read and like to see, because that is what makes law.

 

Until such time I see that Age Pensioners are taxable if they live overseas on their Age Pension, then I am sticking with what I hear at the coal face with the guys I know that live here and don't pay tax on their Age Pensions, can you name one you know that pays tax as a non resident, just asking for a friend :)

  

The guys who aren't lodging tax returns obviously aren't paying tax.

Some should be lodging them, but as I've said previously, the ATO

prioritises debt collection and tax return lodging normally on tax/debt levels.

 

This is something I've tried on numerous occasions to explain to KH but either doesn't get it or just doesn't believe it.

 

I've posted links previously.

He seems to think the ATO would waste time, money and resources on trying to chase down small debts. Don't bother replying to this KH because we've been over it countless times.

 

The reason why Age Pensioners haven't been paying tax is because they more than likely declare themselves as non-residents.

 

Pensioners going in and out of the country at the moment are relevant to Centrelink, not the ATO.

 

I think most agree to a point, people will still be classing themselves as non-residents and so will avoid non-resident tax rates.

 

Our tax system is based on self assessment so what you put down on your tax return will be taken as gospel, until it's not.

 

So the bottom line is, keep things the same until legislation changes.

We can then deal with it then.

[Lacessit]

31 minutes ago, Will27 said:

 

 

 

Our tax system is based on self assessment so what you put down on your tax return will be taken as gospel, until it's not.

 

So the bottom line is, keep things the same until legislation changes.

We can then deal with it then.

I put in a non-lodgment advice 3 years ago,  the ATO accepted it without comment. I have not put in a tax return for two years, again no communication.

 

I have only been audited by the ATO once in my entire lifetime, and that was when I was on a six-figure salary back in the eighties.

 

I think you are correct, the ATO has better things to do than chase a minority of pensioners for trifling sums.

 

Besides which, the ATO may have absorbed the Robodebt lesson. Persecuting the poor and vulnerable just because you can has a high cost in terms of credibility and careers.

[4MyEgo]

On 1/20/2024 at 1:26 PM, Will27 said:

The guys who aren't lodging tax returns obviously aren't paying tax.

Some should be lodging them, but as I've said previously, the ATO

prioritises debt collection and tax return lodging normally on tax/debt levels.

 

Agree with your point 110%,, noting that as a non resident, it is my understanding that you are not required to lodge a tax return, i.e. unless you have other sources of income from Australia.

I don't lodge one, haven't for years, and if the only source of income in Australia is your pension, i.e. retirement income, then my understanding is, you wouldn't be required to lodge a tax return as well.

 

As mentioned in a previous post, if you have other sources of income in Australia and are a non resident, then you will be taxed on that income, plus the Age Pension as well, this is what makes sense to me, in other words, why would the ATO bother an Age Pensioner living overseas, especially if he has no other income sourced from Australia.

 

The ATO knows that the time and expense it would cost to collect small fish isn't feasible, so they put on bigger hooks to catch bigger fish.

 

Below is copy and pasted from Google:

 

The below scenario from my interpretation, while it typically would relate to the Age Pension in Australia, it could also apply to non residents in my opinion as well, e.g. a non resident could have a case to argue with the ATO, if they were pulled up, and if took it to court and won the case, would set a precedent. So better left alone, it could also create an uproar politically by those seeking to obtain the Age Pension down the track and move to greener pastures overseas, so to speak.

 

The Age Pension whilst not taxable for Australian residents if it is your only source of income as a retiree, in my opinion, shouldn't change because of your residency status, i.e. because you choose to retire overseas (as a retiree), while deemed to be a non resident, and the Age Pension is still your only source of income. (See below).

 

The Age Pension forms part of your taxable income. However, if it is your only source of retirement income, you will pay no tax. If you're on the Age Pension, you also receive health benefits and reduced charges on rates, telephones, gas and electricity, car registration and public transport.

 

On 1/20/2024 at 1:26 PM, Will27 said:

This is something I've tried on numerous occasions to explain to KH but either doesn't get it or just doesn't believe it.

 

Some of us are thicker than others, I guess.

 

On 1/20/2024 at 1:26 PM, Will27 said:

The reason why Age Pensioners haven't been paying tax is because they more than likely declare themselves as non-residents.

 

Pensioners going in and out of the country at the moment are relevant to Centrelink, not the ATO.

 

I think most agree to a point, people will still be classing themselves as non-residents and so will avoid non-resident tax rates.

 

I can agree with you on the above, however there is always two sides to a coin and my explanation above may get a thumbs up on the way I see it ?

 

On 1/20/2024 at 1:26 PM, Will27 said:

Our tax system is based on self assessment so what you put down on your tax return will be taken as gospel, until it's not.

 

So if you don't lodge a return because your not required to, you become a ghost.

 

On 1/20/2024 at 1:26 PM, Will27 said:

So the bottom line is, keep things the same until legislation changes.

We can then deal with it then.

 

Nothing passed, nothing changed, however some still like to play the drums, to avoid providing links to legislation, even when their neighbours have asked them stop it repeatedly, so best to put on the ear muffs from now on.

[4MyEgo]

On 1/20/2024 at 2:10 PM, Lacessit said:

I put in a non-lodgment advice 3 years ago,  the ATO accepted it without comment. I have not put in a tax return for two years, again no communication.

 

I also put mine in through my accountant about 4 years ago and haven't lodge a return, I do have a PO Box if they wanted to say anything, or communicate to my accountant, but nothing.

 

On 1/20/2024 at 2:10 PM, Lacessit said:

I have only been audited by the ATO once in my entire lifetime, and that was when I was on a six-figure salary back in the eighties.

 

Same same, didn't provide my accountant with my car logbook, and they asked for it, and so did he, but I was too busy to fill one in and give it to my accountant, had to pay $8,000 to them, my bad, learned my lesson, i.e. don't be too busy when the ATO asks something from you.

 

On 1/20/2024 at 2:10 PM, Lacessit said:

I think you are correct, the ATO has better things to do than chase a minority of pensioners for trifling sums.

 

If memory served me correctly, I think I posted something with regard to an offset and if taxed at 32c to the $, Age Pensioners would be $120 a week worse off, so yes agree, the time and cost to track people down would cost more than that IMO, not to mention would cost the government more than that per week, if those Age Pensioners returned, as they would be entitled to rental allowances, electricity supplements, health care and pension cards, etc, etc.

 

On 1/20/2024 at 2:10 PM, Lacessit said:

Besides which, the ATO may have absorbed the Robodebt lesson. Persecuting the poor and vulnerable just because you can has a high cost in terms of credibility and careers.

 

Yep, that was a major FU, even heard some people killed themselves over the alleged debts.

[4MyEgo]

On 1/20/2024 at 1:11 PM, Nemises said:

Mate be mindful of the current falling market in some areas of Sydney! From memory you too are also from the St G area of Sydney, so this excerpt from p22 of today’s Syd Telegraph article on the subject maybe of interest:

 

“Ramsgate Beach was also the coastal suburb with the biggest fall in prices over the past year, with unit values dropping by an average of about 27 per cent or $329,000”

 

I can PM you the full article if interested.
 

Just trying to help, not alarm. 

 

Thanks for the heads up, and yes from the St George area.

 

I have a couple of good mates who are agents and work the area, and am always in contact with them, I also still have tools to see what the market has been doing, e.g. can bring up properties, see when they last traded, sizes, ages of building, levels, parking etc etc.

 

I used to have a unit in Ramsgate Beach, that said, the bottom end of the market in my opinion, i.e. under $800k is still very active (steady) because of the 1st home owners grant and free stamp duty, yes governments do have a way of keeping the markets from falling, or inflating the bubble even further.

 

I really can't see myself returning as I have maintained my earning of 100k a month here from the stock market in Australia, no capital gains tax payable and tax paid already when I receive my dividend payments, that said, it's a lot of work and money that has to go in, and after 8 years and aging, one does start to tire.

 

The 50,000 baht a month from the Age Pension would be a relaxing welcome, but by the time I did the math, i.e. take funds out of the market, buy a unit to save on the rent for the 2 years, then that money could be making me 100k baht a month here, so I would be losing 10k baht to make 50k baht a month, if you get my drift, doesn't matter which way you to try to play the game, they have you checkmate.

[scorecard]

On 1/20/2024 at 8:50 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

Fair enough mate, we all have different opinions and that's ok, hence the reason we are discussing the issue at hand.

 

The guys I know have been here for decades and don't lodge tax returns, and one of them worked overseas for years.

 

I don't believe anyone declares themselves as non residents when they leave Australia, perhaps except for myself as I earn interest from banks & they with hold tax and give it to the ATO. My other investments are not taxable as a non resident or the tax is already taken out when payments are made to me.

 

Th pension is interesting to me because I am 50/50 on getting applying for it when the time arrives, albeit it the 2 years in jail is the stickler i.e. is it feasible for me, and from what I have worked out, it isn't unless I buy a 2 bedroom pad for that period vs renting, but that would then mean taking my funds out of investments which earn me money, so there would be a loss of income for those 2 years, and I earn more than what the pension would provide me, anyways, it is what it is and we will cross that road when the time comes, depending on what the world is doing and how economics play out then.

 

The question I have is why haven't Age Pensioners being paying tax while overseas and all of a sudden there is TALK that's all, TALK that things are going to change come 1 July 2024 because they are going to change the days that will determine your residency status.

 

Now Centrelink are linked up to border control and know when you leave the country, as soon as you pass through immigration, and if you are on the dole, your payments stop straight away, and as soon as you enter the country, they start again.

 

The above said, why doesn't that happen with the Age Pensioner, ask yourself that, it's because Age Pensioners have the right to exit without an issue, even though the same government department is paying you.

 

I don't like TALK, links to government legislation is what I read and like to see, because that is what makes law.

 

Until such time I see that Age Pensioners are taxable if they live overseas on their Age Pension, then I am sticking with what I hear at the coal face with the guys I know that live here and don't pay tax on their Age Pensions, can you name one you know that pays tax as a non resident, just asking for a friend :)

  

 

And no response.

[Will27]

12 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

I also put mine in through my accountant about 4 years ago and haven't lodge a return, I do have a PO Box if they wanted to say anything, or communicate to my accountant, but nothing.

 

 

Same same, didn't provide my accountant with my car logbook, and they asked for it, and so did he, but I was too busy to fill one in and give it to my accountant, had to pay $8,000 to them, my bad, learned my lesson, i.e. don't be too busy when the ATO asks something from you.

 

 

If memory served me correctly, I think I posted something with regard to an offset and if taxed at 32c to the $, Age Pensioners would be $120 a week worse off, so yes agree, the time and cost to track people down would cost more than that IMO, not to mention would cost the government more than that per week, if those Age Pensioners returned, as they would be entitled to rental allowances, electricity supplements, health care and pension cards, etc, etc.

 

 

Yep, that was a major FU, even heard some people killed themselves over the alleged debts.

It's my understanding that most people in Thailand (residents) should be lodging tax returns if they earn above the threshold.

 

Having said that, it's a bit like declaring yourself as a resident.

 

Just hope to fly under the radar.

[Nemises]

13 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

I really can't see myself returning

 

13 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

The 50,000 baht a month from the Age Pension would be a relaxing welcome, but by the time I did the math,

Agree with your math mate and sorry to hear that you might not be returning to do the 2 year stint in order to grab the extra 50K baht per month. 

 

Surely there must be a cost effective way to return to AU for 2 years?
 

Maybe a fellow AN forum member on here can rent out their AU property at a cheap rate?!

So even if you own an empty caravan in Aus, please let us know! 

[Peterw42]

13 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Thanks for the heads up, and yes from the St George area.

 

I have a couple of good mates who are agents and work the area, and am always in contact with them, I also still have tools to see what the market has been doing, e.g. can bring up properties, see when they last traded, sizes, ages of building, levels, parking etc etc.

 

I used to have a unit in Ramsgate Beach, that said, the bottom end of the market in my opinion, i.e. under $800k is still very active (steady) because of the 1st home owners grant and free stamp duty, yes governments do have a way of keeping the markets from falling, or inflating the bubble even further.

 

I really can't see myself returning as I have maintained my earning of 100k a month here from the stock market in Australia, no capital gains tax payable and tax paid already when I receive my dividend payments, that said, it's a lot of work and money that has to go in, and after 8 years and aging, one does start to tire.

 

The 50,000 baht a month from the Age Pension would be a relaxing welcome, but by the time I did the math, i.e. take funds out of the market, buy a unit to save on the rent for the 2 years, then that money could be making me 100k baht a month here, so I would be losing 10k baht to make 50k baht a month, if you get my drift, doesn't matter which way you to try to play the game, they have you checkmate.

 

I am the same, I don't think I will go back. Although I own a place, it would mean kicking out the tenant (my current income), then a house fit out, appliances furniture, beds, plates cooking ($20k). I would want my Thai wife to come so that's  another $10k for her visa. A basic car $5-10k. And, I would basically be on the dole for 2 years as nobody employs a 65 yo.

[4MyEgo]

4 hours ago, Nemises said:

So even if you own an empty caravan in Aus, please let us know! 

 

Sorry but I am a spoilt biatch, like my comforts, couldn't do a caravan if I tried for 2 years, remember, I have family that would visit once a year for 2 months, so would need room for the ladies, nd me of course.

[4MyEgo]

4 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Although I own a place

 

Ouch, did you hear of the new Capital Gains Tax changes to non residents ?

 

It's ok if you never intend to sell, also that 32c in the $ from rents got to hurt, plus not being able to negatively gear your losses, i.e. if your a non resident, otherwise you should be fine, providing that you can prove your residency.

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/20/2024 at 12:27 AM, Nemises said:

Thanks, but the question is about "when". The link doesn't say when it might be legislated. So once again, do you know when we will finally know if there will be any legislation change? Budget night? End of fiscal year? End of calendar year? 

 

 

 

 

I don't know.  If it was announced, I would have posted it.

 

In my opinion, and I'll say that again, in my opinion, Aussie expats dodged a bullet in last year's May budget.  Not so sure if we will be that lucky in this year's May budget which is set for the 14th May.

 

I have previously posted a link where the Assistant Treasurer for the current Labor government said the proposed changes were in the governments "in tray" and they were looking at tweaking the 45 days, so clearly they have no intention of binning them.  

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/20/2024 at 12:45 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

Please do provide this link so that I can b brought up to speed.

I've posted the same links many times for the same questions, to the point my posts have been reported and removed for posting the same links several times.  I'll occasionally post them again for a newbie, but you are not a newbie.

 

If you look at a link I posted recently, the title is, " Modernizing the individual tax residency rules." 

 

It's well known that the current tax residency laws are 90 years old.   Ease of international travel, a growing global work force, skilled Australians in demand around the world, and the internet, now see these laws largely unfit for purpose, thus, they may / will change to a physical presence and time based model. 

 

I see you have made some other posts, so I will address the above in those posts.

[Nemises]

17 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

in this year's May budget which is set for the 14th May.

 

14 May... so only four months of speculation to go. Phew!

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/20/2024 at 12:50 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

To provide the link to the legislation that states that to be the case.

 

Do you believe everything you read, ask yourself this, how many times have you heard, Centrelink, Services Australia, the ATO said this, yet the staff who play many roles, with the staff getting it wrong, hence providing a link to the legislation makes things concrete as opposed to what "Blake" from the ATO said in an ATO thread.

 

Conclusion "Blake" is WRONG. 

Why don't you go on the ATO Community Forum and ask them? 

 

I would imagine Australia Tax Law would be documents piled high to the ceiling. 

 

I'm not here to research for you the exact clause / sub clause of the act. You can do that.

 

Maybe you can be more specific as to what you do not accept. 

 

Is the Australian aged pension deemed an "income" - yes.  (links provided previously)

 

Is the Australian aged pension taxable - yes.  (links provided previously)

 

Do non resident tax brackets have a tax free threshold - no. (links provided previously)

 

Do you accept the above as fact?  If not, please provide some links.  I have provided many links, some of them from government. 

 

It appears you are hoping that the Australia aged pension somehow enjoys the benefit of a tax free threshold whilst the recipient is a non resident for tax purposes.  I can only go off the non resident tax brackets which show it's 32.5% tax from $0 to $120,000.  This was confirmed by Blake from the ATO in the link, and also in many other links I have previously posted.

 

All the links confirm Blake is correct.   Is the guy in the youtube clip wrong as well?  How is it all this information, from multiple and credible sources is wrong, but your "interpretation" is right? 

 

Once again, please post some links showing all of this is wrong. 

[KhunHeineken]

9 minutes ago, Nemises said:

 

14 May... so only four months of speculation to go. Phew!

Albo is coming under fire for basically doing nothing other than flying around the world.  He's facing pressure in the media on the cost of living crisis.  It's possible he'll splash some cash around and go easy on taxes.  Hopefully the proposed changes will not make the next budget also. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/20/2024 at 1:19 AM, Will27 said:

Assessable income and thresholds don't come into it IMO, if you're classed as a non-resident. 

Correct. 

 

On 1/20/2024 at 1:19 AM, Will27 said:

I'm betting the people you know here receiving the OAP class themselves as residents.

This goes to the very point of why the proposed changes were drafted.

 

I'm not on an aged pension.  I am self funded and never paid a cent of non resident tax for all the years I have been living in Thailand.  The reason for this is, I maintain a "domicile" in Australia and the ATO can not prove I have no "intention" of ever returning to live in Australia.  All I have to state is I am on a long holiday and have every "intention" of returning to Australia in the future.  I have a few friends that have dodged non resident tax the same way.  We have all been doing it for years.  

 

Sure, we pay resident tax, and get the tax free threshold, but the government is missing out on 32.5% from $0 from us.  Why wouldn't they want to close that loophole?  As I have said in the past, if / when the proposed changes close that loophole, pensioners very well may be collateral damage, unless the pension is exempt, or they add a tax free threshold to the non resident tax brackets.  The proposed changes mention neither.      

 

I know I should be paying non resident tax, but use the "maintaining a domicile" to circumvent paying it.  It stands to reason the government, of either political party, was one day going to give government agencies the ability to force people like me to pay non resident tax.   

 

The government went for the easiest enforcement route, a physical presence and time based model, 100% proven by immigration records, which can not be denied, or appealed. 

 

See the quote I posted in a recent post about how strictly they will enforce the "days."