Thai Homophobia

[PeaceBlondie]

Those two Bible verses from Leviticus are a big red flag to us gay bulls, and I apologize if I over-reacted. Imagine how a moderate, middle-aged German might feel if everywhere he went and admitted his nationality, he was accused of burning Jews in ovens, and killing Gypsies. We get those verses inappropriately thrown into our faces, falsely interpreted, as if we are some abomination, which we are not. I cannot go onto the Ladies forum and call them all whores. I cannot go on the ChiangMai forum and call them all whoremongers, or onto the farming forum and call all farmers stupid.

Naam, maybe you were only referring to the Islamic interpretation of those verses, but it was like yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, or somebody calling my mother a whore.

[Ijustwannateach]

Nam, I've admired your intelligence and humour on many threads of TV and I wouldn't have taken you for a homophobe.

However, even with an initial positive impression of you, your post was ambiguous enough that it still could have been interpreted as an endorsement of the views you were representing by your quotations. PB's analogy of "FIRE!" in the crowded theatre is apt.

Nevertheless, I am more than willing to accept your further explanation and my positive regard for you is quite restored.

"S"

[Steve2UK]

FWIW, I think Naam's post including the Leviticus verses was mis-read by some as offering his justification for anti-gay views which I don't believe he holds - i.e. he was trying to illustrate how some people will quote selectively to reinforce a view.

As this is the gay sub-forum, I hope ThaiVisa members (gay and straight) will appreciate what I think is the most biting (and funny) putting of Leviticus in perspective that I have ever seen - the "West Wing"'s President Bartlett taking a right-wing radio jock to task for the simplistic bible-quoting views expressed on her show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI

(there are several clip versions - IMO the best to watch is "Think homosexuality is wrong?")

Apologies to those who already know it, but I think you'll enjoy watching it again?

Incidentally, going back to OP's point about the Thai movie......... it also includes a number of anti-female/lesbian jibes from the volleyball tournament organisers etc - it certainly being possible to infer that the female coach might be lesbian. I mentioned the movie in another thread a few weeks back and the consensus response seemed to be a] that the movie's old and things have changed and b] it represented typical Thai childish humour. Hmmmmmm....... maybe. But maybe also many a true spoken word spoken in jest and maybe 10 years is not long in social terms?

[Thanh-BKK]

Hello.

I have a few words to say about this debate. I apologise beforehand if i am going to husrt anyone with certain beliefs, but i stand to what i say and this is indeed a GAY forum and not the religious section, so here it goes.

Religions, ALL of them, have been invented by HUMANS. When Cro-magnon man saw things he could not explain with his knowledge, in search for an answer he invented god. Many gods, in fact - rock god, tree god, water god etc. And since any of those could kill him, he started to worship them out of fear. NOT being killed by a falling tree was considered a success in praying to the tree god. As simple as that.

As evolution went on, man grew more knowledge - and more gods. And as man became more knowing, he invented things to catch food. Weapons. And the same time, man became lazy. So why go to hunt when he could use the hunting weapons to steal the food from someone who had already hunted with success? WAR was invented. And with war came "my gods - your gods". And the winning party's gods must be stronger than the losing party's, so more people started following those "strong gods".

Many moons later certain people started to rebel against mainstream trends, and asked how they could, they didn't want to explain for fear of being killed. So they said "THE god told me so". (same trend today - if someone out of his/her mind does a crime, a common excuse is "a voice in my head told me so". Or thai truckers who cause an accident say that there "was a ghost on the road", same-same). And since those rebels sometimes had success, others started to follow - THAT god must have been mighty strong. So man invented "prophets", a whole number of them. And they started writing things down, because writing had been invented. And people following the words of those prophets founded their very own religion, the first of the three large ones - Judaism.

One of those prophets even was able to defy the mightiest war-mongers at the time for a bit - i don't say his name but it was roughly 2.000 years ago, or so they say. His thoughts defeated the hatred of those war mongers, known as romans. For which they killed him in a way as was common then - involving a crucifix. This person wasn't the only one dying by cricification, thousands did, but THIS ONE said that "THE god" inspired him to do all this. A mighty prophet, founder of an entire cult of followers - a new religion was born - Christianity.

Much later a new guy shows up, trying to get his point across - as he can't do so as a regular guy, so he too says "i speak on behalf of THE god", and his words are powerful and like sheep follow the shepherd for they know no better, people follow this new "prophet". A few additions to age-old "rules" and voila, the newest religion is created - Islam.

Now it is human nature to attempt to impress others. Or why did they invent money? Just so some can have more than others, no other reason. And for same reason, man will ALWAYS fight wars. Now with the existence of several religions, there is always an excuse at hand to start a new war - "my prophets are better than your prophets", even tough these prophets are largely the same with the exception of one or two. In thousands of years that things have been written down in one or another way, there have been add-ons by translators, pure fantasy mixed in whatever was the trend at the time of writing, etc...... so today we have x versions of the bible, depending on what flavour of christianity you belong to.... as well as the Qu'ran which is in great parts identical to the bible. I've even read the jehovah's witnesses version which again is identical except for some very small alterations.

So since they are all more or less identical, they contain also more or less the same flaws, err, "rules" that were thought out back then in the stone age for the sole purpose of control over others. So someone back then had the glorious idea that it was bad to allow sex between males (as was common practise then) and, "with the words of god in his head" brought that idea to paper or rock....... and the sheep (err believers) still follow that nonsense today and quote it when asked "why do you hate gays?".

The before words were written by one who was born without religion, never has been interested in joining one but has gathered knowledge about ALL of them. I will NEVER blame ANYTHING i did on "god" or other super-natural elements, for what i do is my sole responsibility and i'm in charge of my actions. Religions are man-made, sexuality is given by nature. The first we can control, the second we can't. We are gay because we are. We are jews, christians, muslims or buddhists because we chose to.

And there are PLENTY of people in faiths that preach anti-gay rules who ARE gay and cope well with it. I have gay muslim friends and i have straight muslim friends who have absolutely no problems with gay people, so please NOBODY say that "muslims hate gays" because they don't.

I apologise if i have insulted a follower of any faith with my words, please accept my apology. And no, i am NOT a "prophet" nor do i want this title even tough my views may be revolutionary to some. (My religion will be called "Church of gay Yamaha riders").

Best regards.....

Thanh

[Naam]

Gentlemen,

i understand your position, especially since you elaborated on them and i am truly thankful that you did. believe it or not, it makes my heart a quite bit lighter than it was. i hate being wrongly accused of crimes which i did not commit. and that even when it seems that i was caught with a smoking Leviticus... uhmmm... gun in my hand.

let's follow the suggestion of Farang Prince. peace brothers!

[sabaijai]

OT just a side note, most Christians say that moral aphorisms found in the Old Testament don't apply, as the New Testament supercedes. Old Testaments 'laws' were overridden, as it were, by the coming of Christ, who represented the 'new law' (or put another way, Christ IS the law).

I'm not a Christian, I only mention this as a historical and theological note ...

[PeaceBlondie]

That's correct, sabaijai, as shown by the "West Wing" statement on the youtube video (president Bartlett). Christians are not bound by the Law of Moses; it's obsolete. Modern Jews do not stone gay people. Furthermore, the "anti-gay" passages in the New Testament, written by Paul, are not clearly anti-gay. It's not clear what Paul was talking about, and Paul condemned many more things that Christians do, like overeating and gossiping.

Once you remove the false support of Scripture from Christian gay bashing, there's nothing left for Christians to criticize gay behavior, religiously.

Back on the topic of Thai homophobia, if it even exists: Christian thought does not affect Thais, unless they convert to Christianity, which very few do. So, whatever amount of fear or disapproval or regret Thais have toward gay people, is not based on the faulty ideas of the Christian, western civilization.

[Jingthing]

Modern Jews do not stone gay people.

This is true. Instead, Modern Jews get stoned with gay people.

[Scott]

Wow, this thread is getting really, really heavy. I am glad there's been at least one light-hearted post. I know I'll probably rot in hel_l, but I don't feel like being reminded of it!

By the way, the biggest homophobes I've ever met were closet cases!

[farang prince]

Wow, this thread is getting really, really heavy. I am glad there's been at least one light-hearted post. I know I'll probably rot in hel_l, but I don't feel like being reminded of it!

By the way, the biggest homophobes I've ever met were closet cases!

"Who me? But I'm not gay."

U.S. Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)

[geriatrickid]

Modern Jews do not stone gay people.

This is true. Instead, Modern Jews get stoned with gay people.

Wow, were you in my dorm freshman year?

So anyways, is it just me that's had a chuckle over the bible kerfuffle? Dunno why there's any need to get upset, since the bible could have said anything you wanted it to say if you consider that parts were written in aramaic and ancient hebrew, then translated into an ancient greek (septuagint) with the new improved version in working man's simple greek, then translated into classical greek, then latin, then old english and then all sorts of languages, with multiple versions along the way with lots of literary license and romantic frolicing along the way.

Don't know about you guys, but when my friend gives me the shopping list for carrefour I botch up the translation of what he says in Thai. One time, I thought he told me sanitary napkins, so I go him some tampons, but when I gave them to him he had the look on his face that says "you retard". He meant paper towels for cleaning. Well, at the time, I was buying it, I figured it was because he needed them and was too embarrassed to buy them in his usual way since he gets embarrassed when buying toilet paper.

Oh and since the topic is homophobia I think you guys got this homophobia thing all wrong. See, in my science glossary Homo refers to the genus of primates containing the single living species H. sapiens (humans). So it's gotta mean a fear of men. Probably in reference to all the girls that would avoid guys like us because of the first line of my entry here, cuz they'd get awfully giggly and silly, the guys that is.

[elkangorito]

Gentlemen,

i understand your position, especially since you elaborated on them and i am truly thankful that you did. believe it or not, it makes my heart a quite bit lighter than it was. i hate being wrongly accused of crimes which i did not commit. and that even when it seems that i was caught with a smoking Leviticus... uhmmm... gun in my hand.

let's follow the suggestion of Farang Prince. peace brothers!

I find the whole thread a bit strange.

From "Doctor" Naams first post, I understood him. I did not decide to become offended as others did at that time. BTW Dr Naam, I'm gay. I hope that won't affect our "never ending" electrical project...lol

I think it would be akin to being a religious zealot, to block unspiteful anti gay comments within this forum. I would hope that most adults here can choose their reactions & not rely on rules to solve their problems. I hope that most of us here can 'practice what we preach' about being "open minded".

I welcome all positive & negative comments. I would be a fool to believe that any place is safe from any thing or any comment. I can still remember the words of my grandmother, "Sticks & stones can break your bones & names can never hurt you." Why can't adults understand this? If the going gets tough, the tough get going.

Regarding Thai homophobia, there is such a thing. You can throw out your book on "Thai Culture", because it is a complete load of rubbish. The book is just like any other "bible"...full of rules & laws, which most people are loath to follow. But they do follow them (the rules/laws) for reasons of guilt or a "promised land." Where have I heard this before?

[Naam]

BTW Dr Naam, I'm gay. I hope that won't affect our "never ending" electrical project...lol rolleyes.gif

- did you get the impression that i'am a dummy?

- hope you have time for me mid/end of february. there's too much work going on presently.

[elkangorito]

BTW Dr Naam, I'm gay. I hope that won't affect our "never ending" electrical project...lol rolleyes.gif

- did you get the impression that i'am a dummy?

- hope you have time for me mid/end of february. there's too much work going on presently.

Well, I know you're no dummy.

Anyway, I will be free for about 2 months as from the beginning of Feb. Also, I lost my mobile phone so I am not easily contactable.

Dr Naam, do you have "gaydar"?

[endure]

I welcome all positive & negative comments. I would be a fool to believe that any place is safe from any thing or any comment. and." Where have I heard this before?

You can believe that the Thaivisa gay forum is safe from homophobia. That's the whole point of it. We aren't here to justify our existence.

[cm-happy]

Regarding Thai homophobia, there is such a thing. You can throw out your book on "Thai Culture", because it is a complete load of rubbish. The book is just like any other "bible"...full of rules & laws, which most people are loath to follow. But they do follow them (the rules/laws) for reasons of guilt or a "promised land." Where have I heard this before?

Could you please give us specific examples to support your position rather than making a very broad generalization.

Thanks.

[geriatrickid]

Could you please give us specific examples to support your position rather than making a very broad generalization.

Thanks.

My lady friend is Thai and is not fond of gays and regularly lambastes me for having them as friends, particularly a best friend who is gay and Thai. She is educated and has worked in the EU. My friends are actively discouraged from going out with us or popping in for dinner. We're talking about harmless guys here too. She has had some choice comments about my best friend. Although my Thai sucks, I know an inquisition when I see it and she's gone after him a few times. (I can only imagine what would happen if she knew about our road trips and sleeping arrangements.) No, it's not physical bashing or western style fear, but it is an inherent dislike that she harbours. Thai resentments are not expressed as in the west. They are nuanced, and just as lethal.

Edited January 19, 2008 by geriatrickid

[FRM-BKK]

There is a fair amount of ignorance, certainly amongst quite a few of the British people i have encountered in bangkok. I go out a lot with My younger Brother (who is Thai- same English father) and we get talking to people. it's astonishing how many people assume that we are boyfriends, and admit they were wary about talking to us because we were gay. Needless to say, we don't stay friends or do business with them, lol

Best regards

"Homophobia is the irrational fear that three fags will break into your house and redecorate against your will."

FRM-UK now Bangkok

[kat]

Man, how I wish that were true.

[peekint]

Leviticus 11:44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Now THAT's creepy. I guess those of us who like Escargot are as defiled as those of us who lie with men. Oh well, break one rule, may as well break them all!

555

[peekint]

Now that I've had my say about snails, I'd like to see if we can return to the original topic, which I think was a good one.

It had something to do with Thai homophobia, which probably doesn't have a lot to do with Leviticus.

We've had some discussion of a defiinition of homophobia, which might be worthwhile reprising.

The literal sense of the word, or its denotation, is "fear of homosexual(s) and/or homosexual behavior". It's connotation, or the "color" that the word has acquired through usage, is "a desire to do violence against or discriminate against homosexual(s) and/or homosexual behavior"

I think if we limit the discussion to the denotation, it will be rather easy to come to agreement. In every society, there will be individuals who are literally "afraid" of homosexuals and homosexuality. The pseudo-science of psychology posits many causes, from fear of self, fear of the same-sex parent, etc. etc. Caises aside, there are always some people who will be homophobes, just as there will be some folks with arachnophobia. Sometimes, these people will be in positions of power, and their homophobia will motivate them to make policy and legal decisions that insert some of that homophobia into the pattern of religion, society, or law.

When we open the discussion up to include the connotative definition of homophobia, there is more room to disagree. This is where I want to add my two cent observations on Thai society.

I've lived in Thailand for over 10 years, and have been coming here for almost 20. I've had a Thai husband for almost 15 years now. I speak Thai rather fluently. I read and write Thai passably (write less passably). That's not to establish a "qualification", but rather a "context" for my remarks.

Coming from the USA, and visiting there frequently with my husband, there is no doubt in my mind that in religion, society, and law, Thailand has much less homophobia than the States.

Violence against Gays is virtually unknown here (I'm sure we can come up with examples - particularly in the movies, which rather annoys me because I think it is more inciteful rather than reflective of reality). My husband and I are very circumspect in the USA when we are with strangers or in strange places in the USA. And even then, we've had several uncomfortable experiences that, had I been less aggressive against our assailants, could have proved unfortunate.

Discrimination here is likewise much less. Go to a restaurant, hotel (even five star), and most offices and government institutions, and you will find out Gay men (I can't comment on Lesbians for lack of interest and experience), in almost every situation. It doesn't appear to hamper promotion in the govenment, though I'm sure it can, just like looks, family connection/lack of family connection and social status can. However, it doesn't seem to be "institutionalized". It seems related more to the denotation of homophobia - running into the wrong people in the wrong places.

Religion here, likewise, seems not to focus on homosexuality, so it's not a source of justification for discrimination. You don't see quotes from "Buddha 11:25" talking about abominations and uncleanliness. Our village temple blessed us, and our new house. We have our names together on plaques for stuff we donated to the temple (I use my husband's last name, because mine doesn't transliterate well).

In society, our neighbors enjoy our hospitality and we theirs. We can live openly as a couple, and never really need to hide or "control our communications" about ourselves.

Does that mean there have never been mean comments or, perhaps, even some "uncomfortable" people we've enountered? No, it doesn't. Though most have been foreigners! (Aussies seem to be the worst about this). However, we've never been in a situation where we've knowingly been discriminated against, threatened, or otherwise led to feel unwelcome.

Let's face it, not everyone likes everyone else. There will always be places ANYONE can go and be disliked. Its common sense.

But for me, Thailand is about the closest place there is to what would be "eden" for Gay people. There is a way to go in law - Gay marriage, gay partner immigration for example - but for Thailand to be THAT far ahead of the West, says a lot for the basic situation here. The USA only decriminalized gay sex in some states 10 years ago!

=====

PS - the one openly discriminatory situation we've encountered over the years was at the Hilton htel in BKK. My husband was applying for a job there, and as part of the opening interview, when they were listing their policies, they SPECIFICALLY said they didn't hire Gay people. My husband walked, out, but he chuckled as he recounted it to me, as the guy giving the interview was the an incredible Fairy (he said "he nearly floated on the chair he was such a Fairy")

Haven't stayed at a Hilton since.

I understand under current Thai law, a lawsuit could be lodged about that, but this was 10 years ago or more.

[Badbanker]

Naam, since you mentioned Leviticus, 'abomination' just means 'ritually unclean,' such as eating pork, wearing fabrics of mixed textiles, or walking into the Holy of Holies if you're not an ordained priest. You violate such rules every day, and nobody accuses you of an abomination. My mating with another male is no more abominable than wearing a mixed cotton and polyester shirt.

Naam, I'll ask you not to insult us again with improper use of Biblical texts. Next time, you'll be issued a warning.

NO sir you are very wrong!

The Word abomination is actually translated from:

"to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'"

Feminine active participle ; properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: - abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

Which come from the primate root

"taw-ab'"

This means: to loathe, that is, (morally) detest: - (make to be) abhor (-red), (be, commit more, do) abominable (-y), X utterly.

Super Moderator or not please don't use hearsay to back you own personal actions and beliefs!

I am not criticising you or your actions I am just stating the truth!

BB

[chrisyork]

I have lived in a rural Thai community for 7 years plus and experienced absolutely no homophobia, to the point of being publicly acceptepted by the Luang Poor (sic) at our local Wat.

There is absolutely no doubt that it it helps enormously to be a farang in this respect. You must remember that elderly Thais rely totally on money sent home by their children, working locally or more likely in Bangkok or whatever. It's therefore seen as very important for a Thai to get married and produce children in order to carry on this system; and parents and the community generally exert considerable pressure to achieve this.

This is probably at the root of Thais absolute obsession with children. Personally, I am only too happy to fulfill the Christian churches exhortations to go forth and multiply, best seen in their marriage ceremonies, by being "Pau Kiit" to the children of my extended family.

A farang neutralises this pressure to have children as he is seen as already wealthy enough to fulfil his "duties" to the older generations without needing children.

The actual sexuality and sex involved is not an issue. I think the best illustration of this is that the word fengdii covers both boyfreind and girlfreind. We now live as a threesome, my boyfreind prefers heterosexual sex, so we also have a girlfreind and child. The local lads in the village think my boyfreind has won the lottery - for them this is the most ideal family arrangement imaginable. When sufficiently full of Lao Kow even the most clearly straight will tell me how sexy I am!

Best therefore not to think of the issue in terms of homophobia or acceptance, rather as another facet of the Thai's amazing practicality in all aspects of life.

Chris

Edited February 3, 2008 by chrisyork

[Paagai]

Now that I've had my say about snails, I'd like to see if we can return to the original topic, which I think was a good one.

It had something to do with Thai homophobia, which probably doesn't have a lot to do with Leviticus.

Leviticus maybe not, but I suspect a lot of homophobia has deep roots in religons worldwide.

My only experiences of homophobia in Thailand has been from Farangs. Ocassional remarks from beer swilling straights (usually brits , the religion: football ), but worse is the hompohobic doctrines Christian Missionaries preach to Burmese refugees. As an aethist, I don't understand the hipocracy of religions that preach love and hatred at the same time.

PS - the one openly discriminatory situation we've encountered over the years was at the Hilton htel in BKK. My husband was applying for a job there, and as part of the opening interview, when they were listing their policies, they SPECIFICALLY said they didn't hire Gay people. My husband walked, out, but he chuckled as he recounted it to me, as the guy giving the interview was the an incredible Fairy (he said "he nearly floated on the chair he was such a Fairy")

Hillarious

In my experience the world's luxury hotels wouldn't function without gay staff, especially in Asia. Few years back I sat next to a Director of Hilton on a flight in the US, he was openly gay and telling me all about his BF!

[ZEAK]

Some one mentioned that when they go into a restaurant down south with their boyfriend, that they get "dirty looks" from the people there, because they are gay. Well, I have a question. How is it that they know you are gay? I mean, if you are not showing any physical affection, how do they know you are gay?

That leads me to my second question, which is WHY gays (mostly men), exhibit certain stereotypical "gay tendencies"? Is this what you use to let other gays know you sexuality? To let straits know your sexuality? Its just that I am strait, but I have no "urge" to project an image of straitness to the public. If I am out with a buddy having drinks, or a meal, I do not try to act straight, if you know what I mean. I am not suggesting that gay men are acting gay, just wondering why they often make it obvious to the public that they are gay, by way of body language and speech.

Having said that, I am certain that there are many many gay individuals out there that portray themselves as any other man, just that they prefer the opposite sex. But the gays that I know and have contact with, have these things about them that send signals to the rest of the world that they are gay. Nice people, dont get me wrong. Just trying to understand WHY the tendency is there and what purpose it serves?

Cheers

[ZEAK]

Sorry to go on a rant, but I have another question and an observation. People talk about homophobes being rude to gays and what not, but what about gays being rude to strait people? Does it exist? I think it does, and have experienced it myself. Now, not entirely sure if the attitude was there because I am straight, or just because the guy is a jerk. But over the years in Thailand, from meeting all the gay men that were friends with my Thai girlfriends, past and present, I have noticed a certain trait that prevails among the gay Thai men. That being that they have an attitude that is very......arrogant. I do not know if it stems from self esteem issues or what, but I have experienced it first hand. Its a weird type of ego that is border line aggressive in the way that they express themselves. Once again, this is just the gays that I have met, and sorry to throw this in, but it has left a bitter taste in my mouth regarding gays.

But I do know 2 gay Thai men that are very kind and and softspoken, but they seem to be the minority.

Oh yeah, why cant gays tolerate ANY jokes about them? They see any gay jibe as a direct attack and go all out on the defense. Once again, just my first hand experience so far.

Cheers

[PeaceBlondie]

Gosh ZEAK, if you would spend 40 years of your life trying hard not to be a softie, you might enter middle age without being a flaming freakshow. You act straight because the world taught you to act that way, even if you're really more gay than I am. Several things bother me, including gays who act way over the top, straight men who waste their whole life trying to prove they obviously are not gay, Thai food, and Thai language. Maybe you can get your tongue around those things better than I do.

Zeak, I have been paying lots of attention to gay Thai men for the last five years, but maybe you spend more time noticing them. I find them more self-confident than arrogant, about their sexuality. I suggest you stop noticing them so much unless you wish to have sex with them.

As for the occasional Thai sometimes being a little rude, we have yet another Prime Minister who seems to be excessively rude, and he claims to be faithful to his wife, and he cooks great Thai food with really strong prik.

[popshirt]

Zeak, gay jokes are not really funny to most gay people when told in "mixed" company, any more than racist jokes are accepted by minorities as simply a joke. Amongst gay people who have earned their freedom through the various traumas of coming out, experiencing discrimination, often rejection by family and frequently threats and acts of violence, gay jokes are NOT funny unless recounted by another gay person in an all-gay social group. Even then, there is an edge of discomfort for some listeners, eased somewhat by the non-threatening environment of "we are all in this together". Most straight white males in western societies can never understand what gay people have experienced and continue to experience on a daily basis; this is not their fault of course, but at least an aware straight man (or woman) can refrain from offending gay people by saying "get over it, it's just a joke". It's not.

[ZEAK]

Gosh ZEAK, if you would spend 40 years of your life trying hard not to be a softie, you might enter middle age without being a flaming freakshow. You act straight because the world taught you to act that way, even if you're really more gay than I am. Several things bother me, including gays who act way over the top, straight men who waste their whole life trying to prove they obviously are not gay, Thai food, and Thai language. Maybe you can get your tongue around those things better than I do.

Zeak, I have been paying lots of attention to gay Thai men for the last five years, but maybe you spend more time noticing them. I find them more self-confident than arrogant, about their sexuality. I suggest you stop noticing them so much unless you wish to have sex with them.

As for the occasional Thai sometimes being a little rude, we have yet another Prime Minister who seems to be excessively rude, and he claims to be faithful to his wife, and he cooks great Thai food with really strong prik.

That is exactly what I am asking, if they were acting straight, then why do they have to "act" gay? Why can they just not be gay with out having the urge for everyone around them to know they are gay? This is what I am asking. You said it yourself, gays that "act over the top". This, I dont understand. And PB, just because I notice someone does not mean I want to have sex with them, and many many times its impossible NOT to notice them, when, they are "acting over the top". Please, tell me, how would one choose not to hear a dog that is barking loudly, its impossible to do what you suggested. If I noticed someone its because they are doing something that attracted my attention. I do not go around analyzing people for gay tendencies.

Its not just the occasional Thai being a little rude. I have met gay men in the west that seemed to have this same "gay ego". Like, they can do and say things that most people would not, just because they are gay. See Paagal's post to get a better understanding of what I mean.

Cheers PB

[ZEAK]

Zeak, gay jokes are not really funny to most gay people when told in "mixed" company, any more than racist jokes are accepted by minorities as simply a joke. Amongst gay people who have earned their freedom through the various traumas of coming out, experiencing discrimination, often rejection by family and frequently threats and acts of violence, gay jokes are NOT funny unless recounted by another gay person in an all-gay social group. Even then, there is an edge of discomfort for some listeners, eased somewhat by the non-threatening environment of "we are all in this together". Most straight white males in western societies can never understand what gay people have experienced and continue to experience on a daily basis; this is not their fault of course, but at least an aware straight man (or woman) can refrain from offending gay people by saying "get over it, it's just a joke". It's not.

I understand what you are trying to say, but there are always funny jokes, rude jokes, and jokes that....are just not funny. But it seems ANY mention of being gay with humor added to it gets one burned at the stake for being a homophobe, which, just is not always the case. So why can only gays tell gay jokes to other gays? Because, to me that sounds like discrimination. What about gays cracking jokes that may make some straight people uncomfortable? See Paagals post for an example. This type of behavior is widely accepted as being alright, but NOT the other way around. Its double standards, and I do not agree with it.

Yes, I understand that there is trauma with some when they come out to friends and family, but good humor is not meant to hurt, its meat to make people laugh, and if you can not laugh at yourself, then who can you laugh at. Not everyone is out to offend gay people with their remarks. It just seems to me that most gays take offense to what ever is said about them, its like they are expecting it. You last sentence that you wrote is serious, and once again, I feel like you have taken offense to the question I asked, when not harm was intended.

Cheers