Prostitution - A Victim-less Industry?

[Felt 35]

Prostitution, act of granting sexual access for payment. Although most commonly conducted by females for males, it may be performed by females or males for either females or males.

Early History In ancient times and in some primitive societies, prostitution often had religious connotations—sexual intercourse with temple maidens was an act of worship to the temple deity. In Greece the hetaerae [Gr.,=companions or associates] were often women of high social status, but in Rome the meretrices were on a low social level and were forced to wear wigs and special garments signifying their trade. In the Middle Ages prostitution flourished, and licensed brothels were a source of revenue to municipalities.

In Europe

As a result of the epidemic of sexually transmitted diseases in Europe in the 16th cent., efforts were begun to control prostitution. Brothels were closed throughout Western and Central Europe during parts of the 16th cent., and stricter punishment was meted out to those engaged in the trade. When these measures proved unsuccessful in stopping prostitution, many cities instituted even stricter controls. Berlin required medical inspection in 1700; Paris began to register its prostitutes in 1785. In Great Britain legislation to control the spread of sexually transmitted disease was embodied in a series of Contagious Diseases Prevention Acts (1864, 1866, and 1869) requiring periodic medical examination of all prostitutes in military and naval districts and the detention of all those found to be infected. Having failed to control the diseases, the acts were repealed in 1886. In 1898 the Vagrancy Act prohibited males from living on the earnings of prostitutes.

Internationally. During late 19th cent. efforts were made to control the international traffic in women for the purpose of prostitution. Cooperation on an international scale to stamp out such traffic began in 1899 with a congress in London. This was followed by other conferences in Amsterdam (1901), London (1902), and Paris (1904), which resulted in an international agreement providing for a specific agency in each nation to cooperate in the suppression of the international traffic in women for the purpose of prostitution. In 1919 the League of Nations appointed an official body to gather all facts pertaining to the trafficking of prostitutes, and in 1921 a conference held at Geneva and attended by 34 countries established the Committee on the Traffic in Women and Children (the work of the committee was assumed by the United Nations in 1946). In 1949 a convention for the suppression of prostitution was adopted by the UN General Assembly.

In the United States, where prostitution was widespread, it was thought to be closely connected with other crimes. No major effort to stamp out prostitution appeared until about the end of the 19th cent. In 1910 the Mann Act, or White Slave Traffic Act, was passed through the efforts of James Robert Mann; it forbade under severe penalty the interstate and international transportation of women for immoral purposes. By 1915 nearly all the states had passed laws regarding the keeping of brothels or profiting in other ways from the earnings of prostitutes. Nevertheless, during World War I there was a great increase in prostitution, accompanied by an increase in sexually transmitted disease. In 1941 Congress, spurred by reports of widespread prostitution near military bases and a rise in sexually transmitted disease, passed the May Act; the law made it a federal offense to practice prostitution in areas designated by the secretaries of the army and the navy. On a local basis all states except Nevada now have legislation that makes it a crime to operate a house of prostitution. Most states have laws against all forms of prostitution, although they often exempt from prosecution the customers of prostitution. Among the many agencies in the United States and elsewhere that have worked for the suppression of prostitution are the Society for the Prevention of Crime, organized in 1877; the Committee of Fourteen (1905); the National Vigilance Association; and the American Social Hygiene Association.

Prostitution in Asia has been a serious problem for many years, mainly due to economic factors (i.e., poverty and unemployment) and custom. In countries such as Thailand, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and Indonesia, the problem is largely confined to urban areas. In India and Japan prostitution is fairly widespread in rural areas as well. In recent years most of these countries have made efforts to control prostitution by enacting legislative measures. Prostitution has been legally abolished in the People's Republic of China since 1949; however, it has had a resurgence in the special economic zones.

[RooBoy]

Jee pudgi, you at it again, its amazing you can still sit there and spout your inane crap after the last week.

I like how you ask everyone to argue with you without insults, yet you throw insults at everyone in the room halfway through the thread.

I like how you tell everyone that if they have a differing opinion to yours you will gladly show them that they are wrong..

Oh man, you are the saddest hypocritical Bigot I have ever seen in here, crawling back under your rock would seem the most logical action right now. You seem to think your posts are going to prove something because you waste hours and hours typing eloquent grammar, your thesaurus and dictionary must be in tatters by now..

Its time to go get a life, throw the kids around in the pool?? You not a balding middle aged German are you??

[bluesmith]

Picture This

Young girl standing in the paddy mud and shit up to knees planting rice a new pickup dirves by, one of the village girls inside with her new found farang .

The mother turns around and says look lucky her she has got a farang.

the young girl kows and the mun knows that the farang did not find her in the rice field but where?

They do not do it because they want to they are trying to get a better life.

Just imagine if there was social benifits in thailand how many old boys would have a young lady then they would not look twice at you

[poolcleaner]

In the short term, I'd say avoid making a market for prostitution by doing one's best to avoid choosing partners who must be paid.  In fact, though, the group of persons creating the market often have few alternatives to acquiring the kind of partner or the type of satisfaction they want except through financial incentive- either because of their lack of self-esteem or from bad habit.  I think there are very few people on Earth who fail to find ANY sexual partner as long as they are not too particular.

"Steven"

I'd love to avoid partners who want to be paid but it's not always part of the negotiations.

ps the vague reference to Pudgi was not necessary in the final senence.

[Ijustwannateach]

^

[Mr_Pedantic]

All my wife's friends keep asking me to set them up with farang boyfriends it gets quite tiresome at times and I have to tell them to go and work in a bar and they can have all the farang boyfriend they want but they just say they are shy.

With regards prostition it's just a job out here it's not even frowned upon. The post offices are full every Monday morning with the girls sending post office payments to their parents up country.

Now if I was a young stud muffin and I had a captivated audience of older females wanting to pay me to take me out, wine and dine me, take me to nice places, buy me nice things and have their wicked way with me at the end of the night for say 30 minutes (average I hear) then thats the job for me. What a life, where do I sign up.

[Pudgimelon]

Now if I was a young stud muffin and I had a captivated audience of older females wanting to pay me to take me out, wine and dine me, take me to nice places, buy me nice things and have their wicked way with me at the end of the night for say 30 minutes (average I hear) then thats the job for me. What a life, where do I sign up.

Yeah, see, that's the way a lot of guys look at it. They say to themselves, "Hey, I like sex, and I like getting paid lots of money for being lazy. Wouldn't it be great to get paid AND have sex at the same time??"

And so a lot of guys don't see prostitution as such a bad thing, because to them, it's like getting paid to have fun all the time.

But the reality is that these TRULY freelance exchanges between a man and a woman are rare. For a majority of prositutes, there is usually a pimp, or "boyfriend", or manager, or bar owner, or escort service waiting to collect their cut of the girl's earnings.

For example, consider the situation in Thailand were most girls work in go-go bars. You have to barfine the girl before you take her, right? And that barfine is usually 30% to 50% of what you eventually pay the girl, correct??

Think about that. Up to 50% of what the girl COULD be making goes instead to the bar she works at.

That's the reality for most girls in the sex industry. A very high percentage of their potential earnings is syphoned away by the true "bosses".

True, there may be some "high-end" girls out there who are completely independent, but think about it, when was the last time YOU were with a "high-end" girl?

So while you might think it'd be a blast to have a job where you get to have sex all the time, that job wouldn't be so much "fun" if 30% to 50% of your income went into someone else's pocket.

[poolcleaner]

For example, consider the situation in Thailand were most girls work in go-go bars. 

For someone who thrives on telling the world how to solve it's problems because he has all the FACTS your ignorance is almost as big as your ego.

In NO way whatsoever do the MAJORITY of Thailand's prostitutes work in gogo bars. How you can make such a stupid statement and think you can get away with it is beyond me.

You don't have a clue do you?

Your simply a liar. You pretend to care about prostitutes but in reality your issue is with the people who use their services.

Go away Pudgi.

True, there may be some "high-end" girls out there who are completely independent, but think about it, when was the last time YOU were with a "high-end" girl?

Bangkok's well known for it's "low-end" independent girls. What do you think was happening when you were at Nana disco?

Prostitution is a serious issue. Any caring human being would be supportive of constructive action to aid those in need of help.

Your personal ego trip on others misery is sickening.

[DJ Pat]

According to a book I read, farangs see only 15% of the sex industry in Thailand.

[Dickie]

Think about that. Up to 50% of what the girl COULD be making goes instead to the bar she works at.

Simple business logic, either pay someone to provide these services or provide them yourself. I wonder how may 50%'s she'd need to earn to afford a pool table, crates of beer, fridges to keep the beer cool, food, bouncers, music, etc. Even the gogo bars are expensive to run. She also gets a cut of lady-drinks and doesn't need to shelter from any rain or stuff like that. She also makes friends or, at least, acquaintances amongst the other workers.

All for a slice of money that was never in her pocket to begin with. Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.

[kat]

what book did you read DJ Pat, I'm interested. I've read in several sources that the actual percentage of the foreign sex market is around 5% of the actual market. But undoubtedly, it has increased, so maybe it is safe to say the foreign market is somewhere around 5-15%. Therefore, the actual bulk of prostitution is local, and the worst circumstances for women (read trafficked and forced prostitution and underage girls from Burma, Laos, and Yunnan, China) are hidden away in local markets.

And also, Felt, I found your post very informative and helpful, but it contains an inaccuracy at least about Thailand. Prostitution in Thailand is highly decentralized and venues are found all over the country in almost every province.

Pugi, I admire your commitmant and passion about the plight of women and girls in oppressed circumstances, but sometimes I think the best way to empower people is to respect their choices and maybe fight for women in general to have better choices. In order to really do this properly, I think the first step is to distinguish between "choice" and forced prostitution, or slavery. They are both related, because it reflects the true value of women and the resolve to supply "cheap" girls for the market and profits at any cost, but for the women who now choose to remain in the market, it's important to distinguish. Why? Because if we don't, and we find some women who don't jump at the first chance to leave prostitution under circumstances that we would judge to be reasonable, by extension we are judging her to be unreasonable and placing blame on her. Isn't this the same old historical dichotomy of whore/madonna that hasn't been to kind to women in general?

My approach is to try and improve and raise awareness about women and girls on the whole, build up their awareness and confidence of their potential, challenge the system to provide opportunities for that potential, and well, fight an uphill battle for what will probably be the rest of our lives. But it's worth it.

By the way, guys, I'm not demonizing people that patronize self-selecting prostitutes, but logically the argument that there are no casulaties that you don't somehow contribute to is not entirely true. I commented on the whole market demand scenario on another thread. In a nutshell, if market demand is increasing for prostitutes in the foreign market, then of course conditions are arising for increases in the local supply. If this wasn't true, prices would rise preceipitiously, and we all know in Thailad prices are generally low. More and more women want to enter the foreign market, as working girls, and potentially, as wives. This decreases the purchasing power of local men for brides, and changes the face of entire villages, enticing more and more younger girls into its path as a career choice.

Yes there are benefits or postive externalities, such as entire villages upgrading their homes and increasing their consumption power, but there is a cost. The bulk of the costs of negative externalities of prostitution are borne by the woman herself, and most likely by her children. Within the cultural/religious context of S.E. Asia, a woman has the duty to provide for her entire family. As I stated in an earlier thread, while you the foreign customer, may not have a hand directly in her ending up in a brothel, because she is there of her own or her families "free will", you do benefit from the exploitative rationale of the system that drives her there. This is unavoidable. If you are the demand, her family and social/political culture is the supplier and she is the raw material.

But if you patronize a market that supplies forced sex slaves as does the local market, you are sharing in the benefits of slavery, no ifs ands or buts about it. What we don't realize however, is that many of these men are like slaves themselves as migrant and low-wage labourers. Many of the men who patronize the worst end are also low on the economic ladder and could never afford a "self-selected" prostitute. Therefore, in order to question the worst plight of girls and women, we have to honestly look at the whole framework which allows the extreme objectification and commodification of women and girls.

I'm not judging you, because I myself am not perfect and not without contradictions. But we need to be honest.

[Coffee Dude]

I agree steven. I would like to add a continuation to your point about the gene pool, since we are a result of our gene pool. The female of our species, like it or not, are on some level geneticly programed to seek security from their mate. This because of the long term nurturing the infants of our species require. I am not suggesting that this applies directly in modern times but the shadow of this probably still remains in the program. In my observation, women all over the world TEND to put higher priority on security than do men. In most western societies in modern times women have found that they do not need a man to get this security. Even though this is a recent development it is now almost a matter of fact. Maintaining this aspect, it would tend to bias some peoples view of the validity of a woman in a less progressive society looking for this security (feature) in a mate.

Sorry I didn't answer your post asking for a response to the cut-off line earlier. By the definition I posted from Dictionary.com, I would say that I probably prostitute myself, if in the definition; unworthy is equally to absence of physical worth. I am an administration manager for a sales organisation. I produce nothing tangible or of direct salable value and I get paid for it.

So there

Coffee!!!

[Pudgimelon]

But if you patronize a market that supplies forced sex slaves as does the local market, you are sharing in the benefits of slavery, no ifs ands or buts about it. What we don't realize however, is that many of these men are like slaves themselves as migrant and low-wage labourers. Many of the men who patronize the worst end are also low on the economic ladder and could never afford a "self-selected" prostitute. Therefore, in order to question the worst plight of girls and women, we have to honestly look at the whole framework which allows the extreme objectification and commodification of women and girls.

Well said, Kat.

[stroll]

Thank's for the clarifying post, Kat.

Pity it has been followed by an attempt to blurr the meaning of the term 'prostitute' into meaninglessness, seems to happen a lot in these discussions. Sure there is a grey area, but to suggest the job of an ' administration manager for a sales organisation' to relate to prostitution is foolish or shows lack of interest and respect.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Ok, stroll, so are you going to be a brave soul and tell us (in an unblurred way) whether Mia Nois are prostitutes? Kept boys? Dependent unpaid wives?

I'm grateful to Kat, too, for her recognition that there is a spectrum of choice.

Her economic arguments are correct; however, one could equally well say that our participation in such an unfair, screwed-up economic system as Thailand has makes us all complicit in ALL the ills and inequalities of the system- which is no less and no more than saying we are participants of the system. When the value of human life is set so low in itself, slavery and attendant ills must surely follow. We should keep that in mind when we start complaining about people lying to us, cheating us, and taking advantage of us. However, the main responsibility for any part of this system must lie with the people who have the power to change it- i.e., THAIS with the money and influence to improve things.

"Steven"

[stroll]

^Ok, stroll, so are you going to be a brave soul and tell us (in an unblurred way) whether Mia Nois are prostitutes? Kept boys? Dependent unpaid wives?

These are the grey areas, where I would say one needs to consider individually on a case to case basis what the circumstances and the balance between emotional and financial considerations are. These areas make it clear how important it is to consider the inequality in status, power and financial means when looking into issues of prostitution and exploitation.

Example: A successful businesswoman being a second wife to somebody she really likes and finance her own life is not a prostitute.

A young student who is mia noi to a guy who pays to support her studies and also has a boyfriend because she isn't emotionally committed, is prostituting herself.

I hope this is 'unblurred' enough, if not, certainly not because I intend to confuse the issue.

Her economic arguments are correct; however, one could equally well say that our participation in such an unfair, screwed-up economic system as Thailand has makes us all complicit in ALL the ills and inequalities of the system- which is no less and no more than saying we are participants of the system.

You are correct in what you say, but it is not useful in this discussion. Renting an apartment, paying visa fees and buying fruits in the market makes one "participants of the system", but it bears no specific relation to prostitution, but watching a show in Nana or picking someone on Sukhumvit for the night do. Widening the issue does not take away anything from Kat's arguments refering to prostitution specifically.

[Ijustwannateach]

^ Fair enough, though I contend that just as Kat says you cannot address the problem of low-market-end prostitution and slavery without considering the poverty of the consumers at the end, that the problem of involuntary "bad" prostitution is tied to the bad economic system- and if you addressed problems in the overall system, you might cure some of the ills of its subsystems- surely this has some "use?" For example, if overworked day labourers had a bit more free time for a bit higher pay, they might be more inclined/likely to form relationships with girls who would then become wives, plus perhaps more money to support them.

"Steven"

[poolcleaner]

Example: A successful businesswoman being a second wife to somebody she really likes and finance her own life is not a prostitute.

I can't agree with this Stroll.

In the context of Prostitution - a victimless industry surely self esteem is one area where prostitutes are seen as victims.

A woman in that situation is going to see herself as a prostitute one way or another.

Consider the bargirl who leaves the bar to become one such kept woman can she see a line of differtence between the two lifestyles?

Mia Noi? No it's not a highly fancied career choice but it pays well, just like ........

[Pudgimelon]

whether Mia Nois are prostitutes? Kept boys? Dependent unpaid wives?

I can't help but wonder why this issue is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo important to IJWT.

He blithely ignores every valid point made by other posters and continues to obsess about this single bit of linguistic hair-splitting.

As I've said before, it is a very sad comment on IJWT's personal view of women that he has difficulty telling the difference between a prostitute and a housewife.

I can't imagine what his personal relationships are like (and I'd rather not try), but judging from his obsession with this particular issue, I'd have to say that he's probably a very lonely man.

Anyone who can not tell the difference between a commercial and emotional relationship is a very pathetic man.

I pity him.

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks for the comic relief, Pudgi.

"Steven"

[Pudgimelon]

, you might cure some of the ills of its subsystems- surely this has some "use?" For example, if overworked day labourers had a bit more free time for a bit higher pay, they might be more inclined/likely to form relationships with girls who would then become wives, plus perhaps more money to support them.

"Steven"

though I contend that just as Kat says you cannot address the problem of low-market-end prostitution and slavery without considering the poverty of the consumers at the end, that the problem of involuntary "bad" prostitution is tied to the bad economic system- and if you addressed problems in the overall system

You know for all this talk about "curing the ills of 'a subsystem'", it almost sounds as if ijustwannateach AGREES with me.

After all, how can we "cure ills" if there are no victims?

And how can we cure the ills of a "system" if there is no organized commercial sex industry?

For all his talk about "mia nois" and "housewives" (a transparent attempt to divert the thread off-topic), ijustwannateach actually AGREES that there are, in fact, VICTIMS of the prostitution INDUSTRY.

Which, by the way, was the question asked at the top of this thread. I answered that question. But did IJWT agree with me? Did he say, "you know what, you're right, I agree with you. there are victims of prostitution, and therefore it is not a victimless industry." Did he say that??? Noooooo. Even though, when you read his later posts, you find out that he DOES think that.

Instead we get treated to his nit-picking attempts to argue simply for the sake of argument. He insults ALL women by attempting to dump housewives into the same "spectrum" as prostitutes. And why does he do this? Is he trying to prove a point?? Nope. He's just trying to disagree with me because he can't stand it when I'm right about something.

Pathetic.

When I see someone make a valid point, I'm at least man enough to admit it and acknowledge what they are saying, no matter what I think of them personally. But it's pretty obvious that IJWT has some sort of personal agenda against me, and therefore can't bring himself to admit that he agrees with me on this issue.

I look forward to more inane rabbling about housewives and "kept boys" (whatever that is). It's amusing to see the lengths IJWT is willing to stretch himself just to find SOME point he can disagree with me on.

[Ijustwannateach]

^thought you'd fall for that. I'm not the one condemning "all" women [who in fact are not "all" homemakers, just as not "all" prostitutes are women] OR prostitutes, Pudgitroll, because I don't have a problem with prostitutes- don't look down on them, don't judge them for their decisions, don't condemn them (but don't pay them, though I have dated members of the upper end of the scale).

It's YOU who are condemning them by assuming that to be a prostitute voluntarily is worthy of condemnation. Prostitutes are people who have to make certain decisions to live- and they live with the consequences of their decisions. I think the debate here is over whether and to what extent they are FORCED into those decisions, and what can perhaps be done to help those who are. Some prostitutes are forced to earn money through the only skills they have. Others simply see how to leverage their abilities into long term support (i.e., a financially dependent spouse with no former career). That doesn't make them any less valuable as people. Incidentally, it doesn't even mean I'm speaking of women- there are probably some financially dependent husbands out there, too. I think your last post shows your true colors- your disdain and contempt for people who ARE prostitutes (especially female), as well as their customers, is now clear.

And I never said prostitution of certain types has no victims. YOU, in your hallucinatory haze, said I said that. However, posting on a forum isn't ABOUT reading others' opinions for you, is it? It's just your chance to rant. Reading and thinking would spoil that for you.

"Steven"

[poolcleaner]

Pudgi said this?

When I see someone make a valid point, I'm at least man enough to admit it and acknowledge what they are saying, no matter what I think of them personally. But it's pretty obvious that IJWT has some sort of personal agenda against me, and therefore can't bring himself to admit that he agrees with me on this issue.

So acknowledgement of an alternative point of view is a masculinity test?

And 'personal agenda'?

Who's the freako obsessed with prostitution?

Are you going to haunt every forum you can find with this crusade?

Why not waste your time and energy actively doing something about it?

Or are your capabilities limited to trolling internet forums?

[Pudgimelon]

I don't have a problem with prostitutes- don't look down on them, don't judge them for their decisions, don't condemn them

Who said I look down on prostitutes? I definitely disapprove of the PROFESSION and the INDUSTRY, but I have a great deal of sympathy for the women drawn into that line of "work".

What I did say is that women would be insulted to be called "prostitutes" simply for choosing to raise a family instead of having a career.

(but don't pay them, though I have dated members of the upper end of the scale).

Is that supposed to impress?

I find it quite sad that you have to seek out "off-duty" prostitutes for your relationships. Given the statistics on drug-use, suicide, abuse-trauma, and venereal disease among prostitutes, that doesn't exactly sound like an ideal pool of people to be drawing partners from.

But I guess beggars can't be choosers, right?

It's YOU who are condemning them by assuming that to be a prostitute voluntarily is worthy of condemnation.

I did not use the word "condemn". I used the word "insult".

And again your lack of experience with (and/or understanding of) women is apparent.

I think most housewives would be INSULTED to be called a prostitute. YOU may not have a problem with that label, but I'm pretty sure a lot of women would be very offended.

And that's what I said, you've insulted all women by equating prostitution with being a housewife. Why "all"? Simple. Because in a woman's life, she is often given the choice between career and family. You are suggesting that women who chose the "family life", fall on the same "spectrum" with prostitutes. Therefore, you are suggesting that women have only two roles in life: career girl or whore. And I think a lot of women would find that offensive.

I'm sure you don't see it, because you lack the necessary empathy to see women as human beings. But just because you don't have a problem with calling housewives 'whores', doesn't mean that women would find that comparison complimentary.

Prostitutes are people who have to make certain decisions to live

When is that decision made??

Do you think that decisions (even WILLING decisions) made by minors are valid in such cases as this?

and they live with the consequences of their decisions

A minor who becomes a prostitute (either willingly or unwillingly) has to live with the stress, depression, and self-hatred that is common among sex workers. This warps their view of the world and makes it extremely difficult for them to rise out of their situation and make strong, healthy decisions.

Some women do, but many, many women continue to cycle down, making more and more self-destructive decisions.

And the sad thing is, the sex industry USES that self-destructive behavior to make a profit.

I think the debate here is over whether and to what extent they are FORCED into those decisions, and what can perhaps be done to help those who are. 

Given that most make that decision when they are minors, the point about forced or unforced decisions is irrelevent. A minor cannot chose a career in the sex industry, it is NOT a valid choice for a minor to make, EVEN if they WANT to do it.

Therefore, since 70% to 90% of women in the sex industry started "working" as minors, I would be happy if we all worked to remove these women from the sex trade.

Then, if 18+ year old women want to make an INITIAL decision to work in the sex industry, that's their right to do so. Of course, it should be in a fully legal and regulated industry. There should be government oversight of the brothels, go-go bars and escort agencies, and these business, which profit MIGHTLY off the labor of women, should be forced to PAY those women a fair wage. They should also be forced to provide retirement plans, insurance plans, and health coverage, just like every other industry. Additionally, given the nature of the sex industry, these businesses should also be required to offer job training, drug-abuse prevention programs, and counselling for emotionally disturbed employees.

You are incorrect about something. I do not "condemn" prostitutes. But I DO condemn those who profit from child abuse, emotional trauma, and drug addiction. And whether you like to think about it or not, the FACT is, there are millions of prostitutes with these problems and BILLIONS of dollars are made off of them.

We don't even have to get into a discussion about the worst aspects of the sex industry (slavery, etc...). The so-called 'legit' aspects are bad enough. Just view them from a labor rights standpoint and you'll see that most prostitutes work without the same protections given to other workers. Heck, janitors and dishwashers get more work benefits than the average prostitute.

[poolcleaner]

There should be government oversight of the brothels, go-go bars and escort agencies, and these business, which profit MIGHTLY off the labor of women, should be forced to PAY those women a fair wage.  They should also be forced to provide retirement plans, insurance plans, and health coverage, just like every other industry.  Additionally, given the nature of the sex industry, these businesses should also be required to offer job training, drug-abuse prevention programs, and counselling for emotionally disturbed employees.

You are incorrect about something.  I do not "condemn" prostitutes.  But I DO condemn those who profit from child abuse, emotional trauma, and drug addiction.  And whether you like to think about it or not, the FACT is, there are millions of prostitutes with these problems and BILLIONS of dollars are made off of them. 

We don't even have to get into a discussion about the worst aspects of the sex industry (slavery, etc...).  The so-called 'legit' aspects are bad enough.  Just view them from a labor rights standpoint and you'll see that most prostitutes work without the same protections given to other workers.  Heck, janitors and dishwashers get more work benefits than the average prostitute.

Very good Pudgi. Very good.

I agree 100%. unfortunately for those who are suffering internet forum agreement doesn't help them one iota.

Fact. In 'civilised' countries such as the US and Australia prostitutes in these circumstances find themselves hardly better off than those here.

What to do?

[Pudgimelon]

Fact. In 'civilised' countries such as the US and Australia prostitutes in these circumstances find themselves hardly better off than those here.

What to do?

True. As I said previously, even in places where prostitution is legalized and regulated, abuses still occur. Perhaps it's merely a matter of giving the workers more say in their industry. Or perhaps there is something implicitly exploitative about prostitution and therefore it will never be a completely "clean" industry.

[Ijustwannateach]

Pudgi, you and your personal comments are not worth any more of my time. You haven't once responded with any apparent awareness of the complexity of the issues being discussed here. My posts previously are dealing with consenting adults and have nothing to do with abused children or slaves. You have obvious "issues" with women, with prostitutes, and with other people in general. Go jerk off somewhere else.

"Steven"

[pantarei]

Dear Pudgimelons,

“Diarrhea of the keyboard” is not my forte so I will keep my post short. Just a few comments in response to your diatribe.

I'm not going to sit here and have a debate on whether or not a housewife is a prostitute. That's a silly attempt at diversion from the TOPIC of this thread, and I'm not taking the bait. If you chose to see this as some sort of "victory", then so be it. But frankly, I think it's quite sad that you guys have such a low and hateful of ALL women.

<deleted> are you hallucinating about? Did I ever mention “housewives”? Did I?

Yes, this is a silly attempt at diversion ON YOUR PART. A rational person could not possibly conclude that I hate “ALL women” because I believe that SOME women willingly become prostitutes.

The primary source for your opinions is:

http://www.arches.uga.edu/~haneydaw/twwh/traf.html

This is a link to: “Information on Third World women’s health from a FEMINIST perspective that encourages action to improve Third World women’s health.” Didn’t I mention in my previous post the importance of UNBIASED information in forming one’s opinions?

You have your opinions, I have mine. You do NOT have “overwhelming evidence” for your opinions and I have never claimed to have “overwhelming evidence” for mine. “Evidence” has scientific connotations but someone who uses feminist sources cannot be expected to be unbiased, logical, and familiar with scientific principles. In fact, some feminist reject science because there is overwhelming EVIDENCE that men are responsible for most scientific and technical progress of the human race. This disproportionality is, obviously, related to the difference in opportunities.

BTW, years ago I dated several (three) feminists to get a “first hand” opinion. Very scary if you take them seriously; very funny if you treat them as a joke. One claimed to be a feminist, pacifist, vegetarian, and egalitarian. She had more dildos in her bedroom closet than an average porn shop. I never felt so totally inadequate; there was no way I could compete with state-of-the-art, multi-speed, rotating vibrators designed to stimulate the G spot. Our “relationship” came to a quick end after she referred to a plumber as a “dumb redneck” and I asked her how she could reconcile this phrase with her profound belief in an egalitarian society.

My final opinion on this thread: you need to get a good shag and lighten up.

Cheers

[Jimbo]

As for age. Most of the older girls (over say 23) had entered the trade at ages between 25 and 30.

I'm looking for the evidence that everyone is claiming as fact.

That the girls are slaves.

That they were recruited at a young age.

That they hate their jobs.

I'm looking but it's hard to find.

The definition of young age can vary. By young age I mean 16-17 year olds. Many of the girls here in Phuket told me that they started of at 16 or 17 by sleeping with the older richer thai guys for money. That's how they entered the proffesion of prostitution.

I am suprised to hear that the vast majority of the girls you know have worked in a normal job before. Having lived here of and on for longer periods of time, I rarely meet a girl that has worked in a normal job before. Maybe it does depend on the establishment but I am sure most the Isaan bar girls here in Phuket do not come from a normal job. I have asked a expat friend of mine who is doing his PHD thesis on certain aspects of prostitution here in THailand. He acknowledges my points and he has studied the matter now for some time and has interviewed hundres of bar girls / boys and transexuals.

[poolcleaner]

Thanks Jimbo. I'm not stating that my experiences are the norm. I lived on Suk 22 for a year and got to know quite a few of the bar girls and none of them began their working lives as prostitutes.

But I can appreciate that others will have found things different. I've read a number a books both supposedly fact and fiction about prostitution in Thailand and can't relate to any of them. Of course I only know people who work in farang friendly establishments.

I certainly like to read your friends thesis. Especially if he's talking with girls/guys in the farang side of the industry.

As an example I know a girl(?) who's 36. She's been in the industry for 6 years!!!

That's a late start in life for a prostitute.