To Pay Or Not To Pay?

[wcr]

On 1/11/07 I had an operation in a well known Pattaya hospital. Following this operation I got an infection in hospital and had to go down for a second operation. Following the second operation I got another (and this time critical) infection whilst in the hospital.

This second infection resulted in my going into the critical care unit and then later into intensive care. Pattaya were unable to improve my critical condition and at one stage gave me 3 days to live. This statement prompted family and friends to get me transfered to Bangkok. I was transfered to the Bangkok hospital of the chain.

They admitted me directly into ICU where I was looked after for 2.5 weeks before being well enough to go into a private room. After one month there I was transfered back to Pattaya for recuperation. Prior to leaving BKK I was presented with a bill of 2.2 million Baht which I was unable to pay. I was asked to sign a debit guarantee form which gave me until 31/1/08 to settle the bill. I do have insurance but that was maxed out by the first hospital stay in Pattaya.

I have taken legal advise as I feel that I am not responsible for this bill due to the fact that I got the infection whilst in hospital. I wanted to find out if I could sue the hospital. The advice for the lawyer was that it is very difficult to sue any hospital and that I would need a doctor to back up my claimes, which I probally wouldn't be able to get. He told me not to pay the outstanding bill and wait for them to sue me. At that stage appoint a lawyer and put my case to the judge in court.

I have a couple of problems. 1) I don't have the capital to pay 2.2 Million to the hospital without selling my business. 2) I have ongoing expenses in connection with the original illness that will cost me another 300,000 Baht over the next 6 months.

Anyone able to give me advice on being sued here? My lawyer said it is a civil matter and therefore there is no possibility of my passport being taken away or me being arrested and I will be free to leave the country if I wanted to. I am not too comfortable with this action, however don't have a lot of choice.

[GuestHouse]

First of all I'm glad to hear that you are over the medical ordeal and recovering.

I'd get a second legal opinion from one of the top law firms - They may even have access to doctors who are able to give evidence on your behalf.

I'd also look on the bright side - You still haven't paid the bill.

Letting them take you to court might be a good stategy, especially if it is explained to the hospital that doing so will bring attention to their failings.

Also check out the hospital's 'accreditation' are there any accreditation organizations that you can approach - for example overseas medical organizations the hospital quotes and the organization that has given the hospital their Quality Certificates.

Start a file of correspondence and consider getting your phone calls recorded.

Best of luck and again good to hear you are getting your health back.

[Sing_Sling]

Agree . . . check out again with a different lawyer if there is anything you can do legally for the hospital to take over the costs of the complication-related charges . . . and possibly mention that they could be liable for damages.

[raybkk]

You have informed them about your financiel situation, you have informed them that you are not pleased and you not feel paying that amount as you feel it was their fault.

So come with them on terms and tell them that while you are sorting out things with consumer protection department, lawyers etc you will pay a monthly fee towards your first quotation for the initial operation.

Should it come to a court case at least you have proof that you have never tried to avoid paying. Try and stay 1 step infront of them.

Best of luck

[Jimjim]

Hospitals the world over trying to screw patients for their own (the hospitals', not patients') mistakes. It's a sad world sometimes.

Edit to emphasize it appears it's most likely the hospital's fault for the infection.

Edited January 17, 2008 by Jimjim

[Heng]

Bangkok Pattaya Hospital might be willing to negotiate a bit. We had a relative over there in ICU costing us around X0,000 Baht a day... after about 3 weeks he (as well as all concerned) decided that he wanted to die at home, they quickly said we could keep him there for HALF that per day. The bill was not far off from yours. We checked him out and strangely enough, he recovered to his previous state (conscious and communicative but can't walk, etc. etc. same as before... had a stroke about a decade ago and has been like this since).

Yeah, don't care for their scruples, but unfortunately they have the best care in town so we continue to patronize them for emergency type stuff (and got to Samitivej Sriracha for everything else). Just be sure to watch your back.

[naka]

First of all I'm glad to hear that you are over the medical ordeal and recovering.

I'd get a second legal opinion from one of the top law firms - They may even have access to doctors who are able to give evidence on your behalf.

I'd also look on the bright side - You still haven't paid the bill.

Letting them take you to court might be a good stategy, especially if it is explained to the hospital that doing so will bring attention to their failings.

Also check out the hospital's 'accreditation' are there any accreditation organizations that you can approach - for example overseas medical organizations the hospital quotes and the organization that has given the hospital their Quality Certificates.

Start a file of correspondence and consider getting your phone calls recorded.

Best of luck and again good to hear you are getting your health back.

Love that statement But hey, sorry to hear about the OP's problem.

Naka.

Edited January 17, 2008 by naka

[dave111223]

I'd be interested to know how much the total bill ending up being if the first bill alone was 2.2mil!

[Scott]

Sadly, this is one of the problems when you cannot easily sue for malpractice.

[Heng]

Curiously, they never informed you along the way what your bill was coming to? Bangkok-Pattaya outlined all major expenses along the way for our approval. You make it sound like you got a surprise "more than expected" type bill at a restaurant or something.

[Spee]

Anyone able to give me advice on being sued here?

As others have suggested, the most important thing is your health and that you are doing better.

For what it's worth, my opinion is to keep the two issues separate. You have an issue with payment of a debt and you have an issue with medical malpractice. I would suggest keeping them separate and seek separate legal advice for each.

It appears that you are legally obligated to settle the hospital debt, regardless of the circumstances under which you incurred the debt. That is a fact and an issue that will not go away any time soon. You have to address it. While I would suggest hiring a lawyer to serve as a buffer between you and the hospital, I would also suggest making some sort of minimal payment. This way no one can ever accuse you of failure to pay the debt. If you are trying to pay, even if it is relatively small amounts, then you are acting in good faith to try and resolve the debt.

The potential issue of medical malpractice is an allegation on your part that may take years to resolve. If you honestly believe that you have a legitimate case, then I would try to retain one of the top malpractice lawyers that you can find. Although the hospital can come after you indefinitely to settle your debt, you will likely only get one decent shot at a malpractice claim, so it has to be your best shot.

I would also suggest visiting your consular service and soliciting their input on what legally could possibly happen to you, if you stay in Thailand and if you return to your home country.

Good luck.

[sweetchariot]

Sue a big corporation in LOS???

Come on, this is not LA.

From what I have read before you are lucky they kept you alive for so long, without proof of your means to pay.

People get bugs all the time in hospitals in the UK, but have no form of recompense. Maybe different in the US, but here?

Thank Buddha/ God etc that your are still here. £30k for your life - would you do it again.

I am playing the devil's advocate here, but hopefully a different slant or something to think about.

[Theyreallrubbish]

Curiously, they never informed you along the way what your bill was coming to? Bangkok-Pattaya outlined all major expenses along the way for our approval. You make it sound like you got a surprise "more than expected" type bill at a restaurant or something.

He said he was in ICU for a life threatening infection.

I doubt he was fully awake and lucid during that time

[kash]

why was your insurance maxed out? I thought all european/american insurances had a unlimited amount for medical care, at least my card says so, SOS Europe.

[torrenova]

A lot of thai based insurance such as the standard packages from the various expats clubs in Pattaya or Thai Visa have very low limits and perhaps only a few hundred thousand for any part of the policy.

Nevertheless, one bill seems to be a direct consequence of the alleged incompetence so they are directly connected. I would advise speaking to lawyers as well, specialists in this field rather than generalists.

On a seperate note, I am at a loss as to how costs can run near Bt100,000 per day in Thailand. I would certainly be investigating that as well as the fact that they did actually trat the OP when normal practice would be to stop treatment once the cash or insurance cover had run out.

[mogoso]

Sue a big corporation in LOS???

Come on, this is not LA.

From what I have read before you are lucky they kept you alive for so long, without proof of your means to pay.

People get bugs all the time in hospitals in the UK, but have no form of recompense. Maybe different in the US, but here?

Thank Buddha/ God etc that your are still here. £30k for your life - would you do it again.

I am playing the devil's advocate here, but hopefully a different slant or something to think about.

Not ant different in the US, but unless it's absolutely necessary they do not want you to stay in hospital because of infection risks.

[Rinrada]

Sue a big corporation in LOS???

Come on, this is not LA.

From what I have read before you are lucky they kept you alive for so long, without proof of your means to pay.

People get bugs all the time in hospitals in the UK, but have no form of recompense. Maybe different in the US, but here?

Thank Buddha/ God etc that your are still here. £30k for your life - would you do it again.

I am playing the devil's advocate here, but hopefully a different slant or something to think about.

ermmmm...Not quite true

Leslie Ash, the actress who contracted an infection similar to MRSA in hospital, has been awarded a record-breaking compensation package after suffering years of paralysis in her lower body.

The Chelsea and Westminster Hospital agreed yesterday to pay Ms Ash £5 million for the “shortcomings in her care” while she was a patient.

Patient groups described it as a “wake-up call” for hospitals to improve their infection control.

Ms Ash, 47, was admitted to the hospital in April 2004........................etc.......

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_...icle3201003.ece

(with thanks)

[yorkman]

Or, I suppose, bung the bill over the wall and return to the domicile of your preference, this is not clear in the OP.

Just kidding, your health and life first, then worry about this.......

[Heng]

Curiously, they never informed you along the way what your bill was coming to? Bangkok-Pattaya outlined all major expenses along the way for our approval. You make it sound like you got a surprise "more than expected" type bill at a restaurant or something.

He said he was in ICU for a life threatening infection.

I doubt he was fully awake and lucid during that time

True, but hospitals... especially the one we're talking about here, don't provide service unless you give them indication that you will be able to pay for those services. The most common scenario is transfer to a government hospital. It doesn't really matter if you kick the bucket along the way because doctors and hospitals have yet to develop malpractice fears (yet).

Edited January 18, 2008 by Heng

[wcr]

Just to confirm things.

1) I have paid the Pattaya bill in full. I didn't have a problem with paying this part of the treatment. My insurance will pay for 80% of this anyway.

2) My insurance was brought in Pattaya as I live and work here and not an international insurance.

3) I have been left partially housebound from the second infection. My lifestyle has changed dramatically as I am unable to walk any distance as I get short of breath. I ceratainly believe that in the west I would be able to sue for compensation as well as my medical bills due to the disabling effect it has had on my living conditions. But TIT.

4) Bills were given to my family and friends at the begining but I didn't see these until I was discharged. I was really not in any position to do anything anyway at that stage due to being on a ventalater and drugged up!

[Heng]

Sorry about that (my incorrect assumption), WCR. Thanks for the clarification. Hope you get well soon. Not to say that you wouldn't have had the same scenario at Samitivej infection wise, but a lot of folks, even old school Pattaya families that could easily afford it will go to Sriracha if it's a non-emergency or plan ahead type situation to avoid BP Hospital. There's a reason that the original Bangkok Hospital has expanded into almost a small city building wise in the middle of prime real estate Bangkok, they rake it in any way they can.

[kash]

2) My insurance was brought in Pattaya as I live and work here and not an international insurance.

Then I don't understand why you went to BHP? No thai insurance companies endorse treatments at BHP when there is an option, a friend of mine work as a insurance investigator and they always transfer clients from BHP as fast as they can to other hospitals due to their crazy bills, and most of the time they are able to cut down the price 50-75%, especially when going through the actual treatment and check what was actually done, and what the actual price was for that, and excluding all the extra treatments they throw in which is not necessary.

I recommend you get a lawyer with good medical contacts, and let them go through your bill, then reduce it as much as you can - then you start pushing the malpractice issue. If you gave them the insurance card when you check in to the hospital, you are not liable for any more than what is explicitly written on that card and which you have not signed. As I understand you haven't signed anything, then they do not a have a legal contract with you, regardless if other family members have said yes to whatever they've suggested. But again, contact a lawyer!

Good luck!!

[Macx]

I got an infection during surgery at Bumrungrad. I had to stay in the hospital for an additional 6 weeks and do physical therapy for 3 months longer. After talking to the American director of the hospital, I got a discount of about 40% of my bill. This was after a lot of moaning and groaning on their part that they were not responsible for the infection and that this was as much of a discount as they could possibly give.

A year later, I found out through the nurses that another patient contracted an infection with the same procedure, same doctor, 8 months after me. Her husband made plenty of noise at the head office. Guess what. They got the whole thing for free, including the original surgery. And she got upgraded to the VIP suite for the rest of her stay in the hospital.

Yes, hire a lawyer. Make lots of noise and threats.

Wishing you a quick recovery.

[NordicMan]

Could someone please explain to me how billing for medical services normally work at good private hospitals. I have never been ill in a hospital so I don't know.

If you are drugged up and on a ventilator... how can the hospital legally require you to pay for the services, assuming you are unable to decide whether to purchase the service or not?

Do you simply enter an agreement upon arrival at the hospital that they can do whatever they think necessary and you will pay afterwards?

From what contract law I know, family members cannot legally enter any agreements on my behalf, unless they have written permission from myself to do so. Unless, of course, the family members are paying for it.

rgds

nm