The Panic Starts ? Invest In Gold !

[SoCal]

But I do think the near to mid term outlook could be grim, and thats ideal time to be in it.

I think the ideal time to buy into gold is past. Now you are buying into a bubble. Not to say that bubble won't reach $1,000 or more, but still believe that anyone buying today is buying late into a bubble.

My savings account makes +10%. The last thing I would do right now is buy gold.

My next move is US equities, but not yet, not even close.

i would like to know how i can make 10% with a "savings account" held in one or more major currencies. if you tell me the secret you will be my hero!

I never said it was a major currency, so everyone can save the snide comments.

I live in Vietnam, so will give you one guess where said account is.

[siamamerican]

Now, that is a little extreme. Name another major stock index that has performed as poorly as gold since 1910.

But theres also a lot of trickery that the financial services industry wants you to forget..

Stock gains are taxed.. Take that out of the compounding and see where you stand..

The 'indexes' that people look at adjust hence dropping thier losers and holding only winners. To track the indexes you need to buy and sell with bid spreads.

Etc etc

It took until 1960 to get back to the highs of 29 without inflation in the US markets ??

Japan is down from 39000 to 13500 (and lost 3% this morning)..

Buy and hold needs an extremely long timeline, I happen to think we are entering one of those periods.

Come on, I respected most of your earlier posts. You just picked a year(1929) when the market was at an all time high before the depression hit. . How about making the same analysis. using 1935 as the base.

How about using 1980 to analyze gold. It was worth $1,567 in 2006 dollars. 28 years later and it worth 60% less.

I'm starting to doubt your authenticity LivinLos, because you are making no sense. You state that stock gains are taxed, but aren't gains on gold taxed? If you sell either asset, the tax is equal. In the US you pay short term or long term capital gains taxes on both investments, depending on how long you hold the asset.

I've been drinking tonight, so if I'm missing something LivinLos, please enlighten me.

[Naam]

But I do think the near to mid term outlook could be grim, and thats ideal time to be in it.

I think the ideal time to buy into gold is past. Now you are buying into a bubble. Not to say that bubble won't reach $1,000 or more, but still believe that anyone buying today is buying late into a bubble.

My savings account makes +10%. The last thing I would do right now is buy gold.

My next move is US equities, but not yet, not even close.

i would like to know how i can make 10% with a "savings account" held in one or more major currencies. if you tell me the secret you will be my hero!

I never said it was a major currency, so everyone can save the snide comments.

I live in Vietnam, so will give you one guess where said account is.

you mean we should not call this thingy... this Ding-Dong a Mickey Mouse currency?

[Naam]

I'm starting to doubt your authenticity LivinLos, because you are making no sense. You state that stock gains are taxed, but aren't gains on gold taxed? If you sell either asset, the tax is equal. In the US you pay short term or long term capital gains taxes on both investments, depending on how long you hold the asset.

I've been drinking tonight, so if I'm missing something LivinLos, please enlighten me.

you should interrupt your drinking SiamAmerican and seriously think to move all your assets out of the U.S. and therefore out of reach of the IRS. being a U.S. citizen you are unfortunately taxed on your wordwide assets. but it is quite easy to maintain two portfolios offshore. one for you and another one out of which the IRS can take a bite. it will of course take some time to "divide" your assets but nobody can counter your claim that over a certain period you have spent x-dollars on sick buffaloes, booze, ladies, expensive holidays on Tahiti or in the casino of Macau.

[siamamerican]

I'm starting to doubt your authenticity LivinLos, because you are making no sense. You state that stock gains are taxed, but aren't gains on gold taxed? If you sell either asset, the tax is equal. In the US you pay short term or long term capital gains taxes on both investments, depending on how long you hold the asset.

I've been drinking tonight, so if I'm missing something LivinLos, please enlighten me.

you should interrupt your drinking SiamAmerican and seriously think to move all your assets out of the U.S. and therefore out of reach of the IRS. being a U.S. citizen you are unfortunately taxed on your wordwide assets. but it is quite easy to maintain two portfolios offshore. one for you and another one out of which the IRS can take a bite. it will of course take some time to "divide" your assets but nobody can counter your claim that over a certain period you have spent x-dollars on sick buffaloes, booze, ladies, expensive holidays on Tahiti or in the casino of Macau.

OK, I set myself when I made the drinking reference. I haven't yet moved to Thailand and my current focus is accumulating wealth through working. When I move to Thailand, I 'll look into moving assets out of the US. As for fudging my income to the IRS, I don't think I'll choose to do this. Not trying to be righteous, but it just isn't me.

US taxes in my case will be minimal.. My only income in Thailand will be investment income and after all the deductions and exemptions, I will pay 0-5% on my gains most years. If I had millions, it would be a different story. I look forward to the day that taxes are a concern.

I currently make well over 200k and have only paid roughly $3,000 in taxes over the last 3 years in regards to investment income. Even if you're in the top tax bracket, you can avoid capital gains taxes.

Edited January 21, 2008 by siamamerican

[SoCal]

you mean we should not call this thingy... this Ding-Dong a Mickey Mouse currency?

Naam,

With all due respect, I now have enough dong that I look at it more like a shlong.

Well, what can I say, I have my investments in US, but Vietnam is my home, probably forever god rest my soul.

All considered, having a few billion dong in the bank at 10% makes about as much sense to me as having it in dollars, or taking it out to buy gold.

[siamamerican]

you mean we should not call this thingy... this Ding-Dong a Mickey Mouse currency?

Naam,

With all due respect, I now have enough dong that I look at it more like a shlong.

Well, what can I say, I have my investments in US, but Vietnam is my home, probably forever god rest my soul.

All considered, having a few billion dong in the bank at 10% makes about as much sense to me as having it in dollars, or taking it out to buy gold.

Not apple to apples. Vietnam December's inflation of 12.6% set a record. You're in the red.

[SoCal]

you mean we should not call this thingy... this Ding-Dong a Mickey Mouse currency?

Naam,

With all due respect, I now have enough dong that I look at it more like a shlong.

Well, what can I say, I have my investments in US, but Vietnam is my home, probably forever god rest my soul.

All considered, having a few billion dong in the bank at 10% makes about as much sense to me as having it in dollars, or taking it out to buy gold.

Not apple to apples. Vietnam December's inflation of 12.6% set a record. You're in the red.

Who said apples to apples? Most things old boy are relative.

I still wouldn't buy gold now. Not like it adjusts to Vietnamese inflation. The 10% in the bank makes better sense to me, until I see a new opportunity over here.

Vietnam is in a huge boom right now, thus the inflation. Personally I have fared quite well in this boom, so just take the good with the bad.

[LivinLOS]

One thing for the goldbugs to ponder. Due to the number of speculators in Gold right now, Gold takes a serious hit every time margin requirements are tightened. Do you think you're in an environment now where margin requirements are likely to tighten or loosen?

I think more and more of the gold market is being made up of longs that might actually expect delivery..

Its the paper bullion and bank held pool accounts that are not safe enough.. bullionvault.com or taking delivery seems to be the way many wish and an increasing trend.

I do agree that the ease of trading paper bullions and ETF's is creating more volatility.

[LivinLOS]

Now, that is a little extreme. Name another major stock index that has performed as poorly as gold since 1910.

But theres also a lot of trickery that the financial services industry wants you to forget..

Stock gains are taxed.. Take that out of the compounding and see where you stand..

The 'indexes' that people look at adjust hence dropping thier losers and holding only winners. To track the indexes you need to buy and sell with bid spreads.

Etc etc

It took until 1960 to get back to the highs of 29 without inflation in the US markets ??

Japan is down from 39000 to 13500 (and lost 3% this morning)..

Buy and hold needs an extremely long timeline, I happen to think we are entering one of those periods.

Come on, I respected most of your earlier posts. You just picked a year(1929) when the market was at an all time high before the depression hit. . How about making the same analysis. using 1935 as the base.

How about using 1980 to analyze gold. It was worth $1,567 in 2006 dollars. 28 years later and it worth 60% less.

I'm starting to doubt your authenticity LivinLos, because you are making no sense. You state that stock gains are taxed, but aren't gains on gold taxed? If you sell either asset, the tax is equal. In the US you pay short term or long term capital gains taxes on both investments, depending on how long you hold the asset.

I've been drinking tonight, so if I'm missing something LivinLos, please enlighten me.

I used those numbers as all the anti gold bugs have been doing exactly that with gold.. saying how gold only just surpassed its 80's peak etc.. happens every time I mention gold.. So its ok for them and not ok for me.. Its exactly the argument used against me by the equity 'buy and hold' folks.

I dont think you do pay taxes on gold purchase or sale in my home country (UK) not sure as I wasnt buying it back then when I lived there but I know people who held krugerands and I think (99%) gold was not taxed on capital gains. I know there was VAT and a huge scam involved in bringing gold in from luxemburg 'for your own use' then changing your mind and selling it.. Ways to split the VAT etc for private sales.

[LivinLOS]

Just looking.. Capital gains tax is charged in the UK unless its gold sov's or some classes which are tax exempt..

I was wrong on that sorry..

Tho of course gold can be bought and sold cash.. I remember getting briefcases of it once for a collegue.. But that it less legit and probably harder in this post 9/11 world to deal with.

[Naam]

you mean we should not call this thingy... this Ding-Dong a Mickey Mouse currency?

Naam,

With all due respect, I now have enough dong that I look at it more like a shlong.

Well, what can I say, I have my investments in US, but Vietnam is my home, probably forever god rest my soul.

All considered, having a few billion dong in the bank at 10% makes about as much sense to me as having it in dollars, or taking it out to buy gold.

if you stay in Viet Nam then you most probably have made it and will make more Dongs (i assume) SoCal. i wonder how it feels when you read all the digits of your bank statement. i was a billionaire once in Deutsche Mark (nearly 30 years ago) when some computer operator forgot to punch in the decimal interpunction of a trade selling GBP 75,000 at a rate of 4xxxxxx vs. DEM instead of 4.xxxxx

[LivinLOS]

US taxes in my case will be minimal.. My only income in Thailand will be investment income and after all the deductions and exemptions, I will pay 0-5% on my gains most years. If I had millions, it would be a different story. I look forward to the day that taxes are a concern.

OK well punch that into those S&P graphs that long term holders keep using.. If you take that off the top of long term stock holdings and dont let it accumulate / compound again your getting nickel and dimed to death.

I am not against equity holdings at the right time anyway.. I have a large equity exposure myself right now along with my bullion.. But I dont think this is going to be a kind year for blue chips or exposure to financials and home builders or even general economy. I expect the precious metals, energy, and commodity based equity exposure to continue to do well.

[Naam]

US taxes in my case will be minimal.. My only income in Thailand will be investment income and after all the deductions and exemptions, I will pay 0-5% on my gains most years. If I had millions, it would be a different story. I look forward to the day that taxes are a concern.

if i am not completely mistaken the exemptions for those living abroad (something like 85k nowadays) are not applicable to earnings from investment but from work. check with your tax solicitor!

[SoCal]

if you stay in Viet Nam then you most probably have made it and will make more Dongs (i assume) SoCal. i wonder how it feels when you read all the digits of your bank statement. i was a billionaire once in Deutsche Mark (nearly 30 years ago) when some computer operator forgot to punch in the decimal interpunction of a trade selling GBP 75,000 at a rate of 4xxxxxx vs. DEM instead of 4.xxxxx

Yeah, sometimes I don't know what to do with my billions.

Oh well, Vietnam has been good to me in my brief two years here. Worst comes to worse I always have wallpaper for my house.

Same goes for the dollars I guess.

For those who think the world is crashing, and gold will be the only real currency, then my only advice is to stop buying gold and start buying bullets. I can get all your gold with one bullet, but you couldn't buy the last bowl of rice with all that gold.

[siamamerican]

US taxes in my case will be minimal.. My only income in Thailand will be investment income and after all the deductions and exemptions, I will pay 0-5% on my gains most years. If I had millions, it would be a different story. I look forward to the day that taxes are a concern.

if i am not completely mistaken the exemptions for those living abroad (something like 85k nowadays) are not applicable to earnings from investment but from work. check with your tax solicitor!

No, you receive standard deductions and exemptions regardless of where you live. I have no idea what the non-investment income exemption is, but your figure seems about right. In my case, roughly the 1st 20k in realized investment income won't be taxed. I've managed to mitigate the taxes the last few years by selling stocks in the red as well as stocks in the black. I realize that certain years I'll pay taxes, but they won't be substantial.

Currently I itemize my deductions and 30-40k of income isn't taxed. I'll be taking the standard deductions while in Thailand. Hence only the 1st 20k won't be taxed.

[LivinLOS]

I thought you could get, like naam says, an 80 something k tax free allowance once you show your paying taxes within another residency.

[SoCal]

if i am not completely mistaken the exemptions for those living abroad (something like 85k nowadays) are not applicable to earnings from investment but from work. check with your tax solicitor!

Completely correct, although some vehicles are more readily obfuscated than others.

[Naam]

if i am not completely mistaken the exemptions for those living abroad (something like 85k nowadays) are not applicable to earnings from investment but from work. check with your tax solicitor!

Completely correct, although some vehicles are more readily obfuscated than others.

can you "obfuscated" people show some mercy for chaps like me who's english is third language?

[lannarebirth]

if i am not completely mistaken the exemptions for those living abroad (something like 85k nowadays) are not applicable to earnings from investment but from work. check with your tax solicitor!

Completely correct, although some vehicles are more readily obfuscated than others.

The exemption is for earned income only.

[SoCal]

US taxes in my case will be minimal.. My only income in Thailand will be investment income and after all the deductions and exemptions, I will pay 0-5% on my gains most years. If I had millions, it would be a different story. I look forward to the day that taxes are a concern.

if i am not completely mistaken the exemptions for those living abroad (something like 85k nowadays) are not applicable to earnings from investment but from work. check with your tax solicitor!

No, you receive standard deductions and exemptions regardless of where you live. I have no idea what the non-investment income exemption is, but your figure seems about right. In my case, roughly the 1st 20k in realized investment income won't be taxed. I've managed to mitigate the taxes the last few years by selling stocks in the red as well as stocks in the black. I realize that certain years I'll pay taxes, but they won't be substantial.

Currently I itemize my deductions and 30-40k of income isn't taxed. I'll be taking the standard deductions while in Thailand. Hence only the 1st 20k won't be taxed.

Sorry, you're right. Investment income is taxed, but there are other deductions that can be taken. Depends on what you are talking.

[SoCal]

can you "obfuscated" people show some mercy for chaps like me who's english is third language?

Sorry Naam.

If you are confused or bewieldered by the word, then you get it about as much as most people.

[siamamerican]

US taxes in my case will be minimal.. My only income in Thailand will be investment income and after all the deductions and exemptions, I will pay 0-5% on my gains most years. If I had millions, it would be a different story. I look forward to the day that taxes are a concern.

OK well punch that into those S&P graphs that long term holders keep using.. If you take that off the top of long term stock holdings and dont let it accumulate / compound again your getting nickel and dimed to death.

I am not against equity holdings at the right time anyway.. I have a large equity exposure myself right now along with my bullion.. But I dont think this is going to be a kind year for blue chips or exposure to financials and home builders or even general economy. I expect the precious metals, energy, and commodity based equity exposure to continue to do well.

My point was that I would pay equal taxes on capital gains on gold or equity investments. If I punched in those #s into the graphs, gold and equities would both be equally negatively impacted. In the US both are taxed in the same manner.

I expect precious metals to increase in value in the short term also. As for me, the risk though outways the reward.

[Naam]

I've managed to mitigate the taxes the last few years by selling stocks in the red as well as stocks in the black.

it's your party. personally i would hate to be shackled by tax potential liabilities/implications when buying or selling. all i want is picking up the phone and tell my banker "buy" or "sell". i learned that the hard way in my first year of being a "U.S. person" and had to sort out a huge chaos to make the IRS happy. the year after i had my account "cleaned out". no buying, no selling just adding up the 1099s which my bank provided and the tax return was a breeze.

[Naam]

attention moderators! aren't swear and utterly obscene words like "income tax" against forum rules?

[siamamerican]

Just looking.. Capital gains tax is charged in the UK unless its gold sov's or some classes which are tax exempt..

I was wrong on that sorry..

Tho of course gold can be bought and sold cash.. I remember getting briefcases of it once for a collegue.. But that it less legit and probably harder in this post 9/11 world to deal with.

It's my understanding that gold is subject to capital gains in the UK as you stated. I think there is an allowance of £9200 for 2007/2008.

[Naam]

I expect the precious metals, energy, and commodity based equity exposure to continue to do well.

did you watch some financial news lately? i mean the last 3-4 hours

[siamamerican]

I've managed to mitigate the taxes the last few years by selling stocks in the red as well as stocks in the black.

it's your party. personally i would hate to be shackled by tax potential liabilities/implications when buying or selling. all i want is picking up the phone and tell my banker "buy" or "sell". i learned that the hard way in my first year of being a "U.S. person" and had to sort out a huge chaos to make the IRS happy. the year after i had my account "cleaned out". no buying, no selling just adding up the 1099s which my bank provided and the tax return was a breeze.

Agreed, it is my party. Your net worth is much greater than mine and therefore your tax liability much greater. If I only stick it out a few more years here in the US, I would have the same concerns you have.

[LivinLOS]

I expect the precious metals, energy, and commodity based equity exposure to continue to do well.

did you watch some financial news lately? i mean the last 3-4 hours

Hopping between Bloomberg and ToutTV (CNBC ) all afternoon.. How are days like this going to suit the buy and hold crowd.

Looks like those bonds are going to go stinky on someone..

[Naam]

I expect the precious metals, energy, and commodity based equity exposure to continue to do well.

did you watch some financial news lately? i mean the last 3-4 hours

Hopping between Bloomberg and ToutTV (CNBC ) all afternoon.. How are days like this going to suit the buy and hold crowd. Looks like those bonds are going to go stinky on someone..

which bonds? mine?