3 Estonian men involved in violence on Pattaya Walking Street

[SiamFalcon]

1) I would prefer a Thai bar to a British bar but I would also prefer a black eye to a bottle in the leg or that steel bar on the head.

2) At first I thought the story might have come from Pattaya People until I saw the word "steal bar" - only crap papers or drunk bloggers make such mistakes.

3) When Brits and Canadians get murdered the Bangkok Post and the Nation love to run the story - I wonder if they care so much about these Estonians!

[ttthailand]

Lets sum this up. Man gets killed with what started by Thais giving him and his friends a hard time for not coming into a bar ( the thais must get a commission ). They were unarmed, as far as we know, and the Thais were armed with bottles etc. Man dies and people here are saying he was the problem. Something really wrong here.

I left Pattaya two years ago after seeing three people get mugged in front of my place in two days. ( Only a fraction of what I have seen in Pattaya). Police told all of them that there should not have been walking on a dark street. Only way from there hotel to get to main street was to walk down the street. Something really wrong there.

In Pattaya I was always out having a good time so perhaps I saw more then the normal guy living there but it finally got to me. I had a few close calls my self but I learned what not to do from 13 years living here and another 10 of traveling around the world. Most people don't know what to expect so bad things happen. Crime here is much different from other countries. Most people feel safe and then shit happens. The Thai government and even people on TV are part to blame for this because they keep saying it is safe and people let there guard down. IT'S NOT SAFE IN PATTAYA. If the crime don't get you the roads will. It's only a matter of time before you have a problem. Best to stay for a short time have some fun and get out. Know that the entire time you are there you need to be careful.

[britmaveric]

ttthailand - what you left out Estonians left and came back to start a scrap with thai lads that hassled them earlier in the evening. This was their mistake and btw man didnt die. Another bad report from Thai News papers.

Lived here and always stay a few months out of the year in Patters for nearly a decade or so. Never had a problem yet and thats because I use my head and have common sense. People lose this when they go on holiday for some bizzare reason think they are indestructible from bad things happening.

[spencerdharmagrafix]

Hummmm... Soi 15.

Beach Club.

Angelwitch and RockGirls.

What's Up and Fantasia (if it's still open).

Venus.

It's not the nicest area for sure.

Sorry to hear about this tragedy.

Fun Town stops being fun when there is blood in the streets.

My sympathies to the families.

And justice to the perps is probably more than we could hope for.

~WISteve

well i wouldn call it funtown i only went to pattaya once and left next day.

it is Hlorktown (ripofftown)

designed for farang who arent interested in thai culture and ony want to screw thai prostitutes (who are greatly responsible for giving the impression that all thai women are up to tricking farang ito building their families a house and then throw the farang away and keep everything)

If it wasnt for the whoring community and the stupid farang who give in to this completely transparent and egoistic scam, the selfish faction of thai community wouldnt have nbeen able to become so soulless.

I hold these farang responsible for the fact that so many thais like to take advantage of us.

they wouldnt be able to do it to us if we didnt permit them.

My wife is a factory girl and insists on paying half the rent with me (which i dont permit of course, as she is too nice)

also neither her or her parents maintain that it is my responsibility to send money to the parents, they are an honorable family, and i just wish that the farang who choiose selfiush whores as their wives would look for a decent woman instead of being fooliosh enbough to think they can find a decent faithful women in a beer bar.

No decent thai family would accept this kind of lifestyle, and pattaya wouldnt exist if it wasnt for us.

we are a large part of the cause.

Disgusting to say the least.

But to keep to the point of the post, i am both disgusted and sad to see that once again thais have been able to ransack, and kill tourists simply because farang are given no rights or respect as touristic visitors or expat immigrants , whereas a thai wife in the west gets automatic work permit, can buy land, or open a business. We farang are 2nd class citizens and have no rights here except that of being ripped off and taken advantage of.

If a foreigner is to be deported in the west, one will often see nationals of that particular western country with placards in front of the embassy demonstrating to prevent the deportation.

Ever seen thais with placards standing up for the rights of as farang???

never, they just havent come far enough to care about anyone except their own.

I wish this was different but it isnt.

I do not associate myself with any of these facets of thailand (that is not thailand)

I live with decent thais in an area where there is no tourism and no prostitution, and must say that the real thai people are great people with morals, axcepting their only deficit; being that they would never stand up for a non-thai national, as we often do for non-nationals in our home countries.

I would like to express my regrets and sadness for the person who died, and the peopple injured, but please let me add that if they had unbderstood this country they would never have gone back to sort the problemut themselves. Even the police do not dare to get mixed up on certain streets due to the fact that some soys are controlled by Mer Phern (gunmen) and gangsters (nak leng) who have more power than the local smallfry officers who must patrol there.

On the sukhumvit soy 7/3 the police must first ask permission from the 3 gangsters in black clothing who sit in front of the red police patrol report box, to open the box.I saw a farang get nearly killed beaten almost to death on soy nana by about 20 black clothed motorbike riders who drove past the police box and proceeded to beat the crap out of a single farang in carpark of nana hotel.

I ran to the police box and asked them to do something, whereupon i was told to mind my own business.

They seemed too afraid to leave their box.

so there you go, if you dont want to die, dont start a fight or even return a fight with a bunch of thais on their own territory, especially not in a mafia controlled area such as pattaya.

Stay away from such places and you will have a much better time here.

Associate with honorable Thais and you will be impressed with the Thai culture and nation, instead of disappointed or disgusted.

So many farang residents live here and cant speak read or write thai because they spend 100 percent of their time in an english speaking street with their own countrymen and eat their own countriy's food only like the brits in Benidorm who bring their jar of marmite and tins of beans with them.

My god what do you want to live in another country fro if you have to import your homeland with you to be able to withstand the cchange in enviroment and culture?

Funtown?

you must be joking mate.

what a richardhead.

Idiottown, selfishtown,lust-town,farangland, callit what you like, but funtown?

Some idea of fun you have!

Try watching traditional thai dance, or studying thai mythology, natural medicine, cookery or buddhist art, thats what i call fascinating, not a damned pooltable and a 30 baht beer for 150 baht in a foam holder and some chic who only wants your money so she can give it to the thai guy she loves and live with when you arent there.

haha some people are so stupid.

im glad im not one of them.

[jenniferjuniper]

Am I missing something?

Yeah, the point friend,only the point.

Some of us don't need a map drawn and the track we been around too many times ain't always in the same place.

Go figure but don't bust a gut trying too much or maybe your head'll hurt.

[jenniferjuniper]

Try watching traditional thai dance, or studying thai mythology, natural medicine, cookery or buddhist art, thats what i call fascinating,

Sure, with you there pal on that one but what the heck are we meant to do the next day?

[philliphn]

First I am sorry when people are hurt by the violent acts of any one.

It is also true that more and more Russians are now vacationing in Pattaya. The Russians tend to be large sized men who have a reputation of being overly aggressive. No doubt they are not slowed down by the thought of taking on Thai men who tend to be of a much smaller physical frame. The Russians need to learn to conduct themselves with dignity and respect towards others. Instead of just demanding respect for themselves. Thai men also need to learn this lesson.

Thai men fight to win. They do not have a sense of a fair fight. Only winning seems to matter.

Avoiding physical confrontations with any one is the best policy. The only exception is if you must fight to survive by way of self defense. Even then escape is the best way.

If you go looking for trouble you will find it!

Measures need to be taken to increase the security of people in the whole of the Walking Street area. This must include patrols by properly trained regular Police Officers. The Volunteer Police should act as the regular Police Officer's assistants, especially with communication issues, but they cannot be counted on to provide the services that Regular Police Officers should provide. A Regualr Police Substation adequately manned should be made part of Walking Street, with emphasis on the evening hours. Closed Circuit Cameras should be installed on Walking Street. Severe penalties should be given to violent perpertraitors! Corruption by Police Officers any where should not be tolerated!

Edited January 23, 2008 by philliphn

[shotover]

The victims may not have been wise to return to the scene to confront those who earlier assaulted them, but it in no way warrants murder.

I've seen the slimy Thai males aggressively leading and coercing naive tourists into their bars. They get quite upset if a fish on the hook tries to wiggle off, and leave without entering their designated bar. I won't go into a bar who employees these Thai maengdas who add no value to my entertainment.

I wish enough customers would also boycott these bars employeeing these slugs, and send a message to the owners that the only Thai males needed to work at the bar for security purposes should remain unseen and unheard until needed.

[teacherofwoe]

All of our embassys should be taking note of all incidents of this type and advising our governments. Our governments should be making proper travel warnings so people know that places like Pattaya are in fact dangerous. One could argue that it's dangerous only to those who use poor judgment, but it's still dangerous nevertheless. If people continue to frequent places like this in droves, then they will continue to thrive. The more money going in will increase the greed and thus increase the ruthlessness of greedy Thais, many it seems are junkies. I have personally never been there, and, after seeing the photos on this thread, would never go there. What's the attraction other than debortuary?

[jenniferjuniper]

What's the attraction other than debortuary?

Would that be when you shag your way to the mortuary?

[marshbags]

It is obviously a sad thing when someone dies, but in my studies of International Law, one of the first things they teach you is not to get into Fights with the Locals, which constitutes an "International Incident" not to mention as everyone pointed out the Locals tend to back each other up which lowers the odds a bit. The fact that these guys COULD have walked away from this incident proves they were LOOKING for Trouble. The Thai Guys more than likely looked at the other Guy's attack as an insult to them. (You are suppose to Respect your Host even if your Host is not nice). So the Thai Guys more than likely felt like it was some kind of Patriotic Duty to beat the living crap out of these Foriegners to teach them some respect. Besides the Thai Guys more than likely were just doing what they were told to do, in trying to get Customers into the bar in the first place, I don't think they were out there trying to intentionally try to offend people. So when the Foriegners reacted with an Attitude and tried to start a fight, the Thai guys probably felt like they had to defend themselves, after all they were just at work doing their jobs, and a bunch of Foriegners try to pick a fight with them? What are they suppose to do? They are being PAID to work there, the Foriegners could have gone anywhere else they wanted, but the Thai Guys had to stay at that Location because they were being Paid to be there. It seems to me, like a grave misunderstanding that got out of Control. I don't think the Thai guy that Stabbed the Guy in the Leg was trying to Kill the guy, or he might have tried to Stab the guy in the Face instead of the Leg or maybe in the heart, but he chose to stab him in the Leg more than likely to stop the guy from moving forward towards the Thai Guys. If the guy can't walk, then he can't fight too well. So the Thai Guy was most likely going for a Mobility wound, not a Fatal Strike. Many Thai Guys play around with Martial Arts a lot, I am also a Martial Artist, and if you are a Martial Artist you know very well the difference between landing a Fatal Strike, and Landing a Wound to stop an attacker from moving forward towards you. Just from the looks of it, that wound was made in defense not in Offense.

The fact the guy died from that wound was most likely purely an accident on both sides of the fence.

Each group is equally guilty for this Tragedy from my perspective.

I hope that some good may come from this, maybe the Pattaya Police might pay closer attention to Walking Street, instead of relying on the Tourist Police to handle it all the time. In the Philippines they have an armed Guard outside every Bar. (Almost) I don't think Thailand needs to get to that point, but a little extra security might not be a bad idea.

I don't think Walking Street is Sleazy, Walking Street is one of my favorite places in the Whole World, and I have been many many place on this Planet. I like eating the Barbecue they cook down there, I like walking from Bar to Bar and Joking around with the Girls, and they always have treated me good when I was there. I never had to worry about anything walking down Walking street. When I lived in the Philippines I had to worry about being shot every time I walked around the Corner by the NPA. In Mexico I have to worry about the Cops planting Drugs on me or Arresting me because I am carrying a Cell phone which is Considered Contraband in Mexico.

In Thailand the Customs and Police are always fair with me, I never have a feeling of Fear when I am in Thailand like I do in other Countries. In Thailand I always feel at home. I Respect the Thai people because of this, I respect the Police because they treat me fair, and I show respect to every Thai person I meet as if they are my own Blood. And I have never had a Problem in Thailand, instead the Thai people I have met have gone out of their Way to help me. Many times I have Girls who stayed with me for Free just because they wanted my Company, I had a College Girl who had her own Apartment offer me a place to stay when I was coming to Thailand, I had many Nice Girls in Thailand who didn't work in the Bars that treated me like Family. So I don't like the Characterizations about Thai people only doing things for Foriegners just because they want Money, That sounds Racist to me, and if you feel that way, you need to get out of Thailand as soon as possible and get to where you believe the people don't do it just for the money.

This is a Sad Story, I am sorry the Guy Died, I am sorry the Fight took place, but I think that each side of this Story needs to be carefully understood before jumping to Racist Conclusions, and Degrading Thailand because of this Incident.

Sua*

One of the problems here is that most Thai,s / locals are overly friendly, understanding and tolerant of the fact that tourist in particular are from different cultures and accept the need to be so.

The sort of low life that mixes with the above and frequent these entertainment areas are not, generally look for an excuse to take advantage of anyone in a state of not being in control of their emotions, and lulled into thinking the toleration of reasonable people is across the the board, as they say.

Sadly it is not and behind the low life smiles are the thoughts of a short fused passion to fight, get stuck in and cause injury to the extreme, and do not give a fukc.

They draw the people in, lull them into thinking they are safe, watch and encourage them to get in the mood and usually drunk, then wait for the least thing to happen and get stuck in with the usual free for all that tends to follow and the out numbering of the individuals by many to one.

Idiots, Stupid ect. and now Moron are some of the choice words used to describe the victim / victims.

This is really the pits, when you know the tragic outcome and the fact that one has paid the ultimate price.

Don,t forget, if the article is correct by the way, the Thai, as is usually the case when it comes to encouraging customers to go into certain establishments in walking street, started the incident off ....NOT THE TOURIST who sadly lost his life.

Address the situation be enforcing true law and order, putting the low life,s where they belong and also make the owners who employ them, responsible for their actions and criminal intentions.

TAT, Police and the Thai authorities need to act, to advise, educate and reform this entrenched attitude that these thugs can do what they like and are licensed to do whatever they want, as they are working in these types of environment and being paid to do so, accordingly.

While at the same time doing their utmost to attract customers from all walks of life to, enjoy themselves and do so in a phoney, false, friendly atmosphere.

In reality of late nothing is further from the truth and it again needs addressing, NOW

marshbags

Edited January 23, 2008 by marshbags

[basjke]

Am I missing something?

Yeah, the point friend,only the point.

Some of us don't need a map drawn and the track we been around too many times ain't always in the same place.

Go figure but don't bust a gut trying too much or maybe your head'll hurt.

My point was,you say you have been in walking street less then 5 times and at the end of your story you say that anyone who think it's a cesspit hasn't been there many times.So you talking out of experience?

[moo9]

let them feel it the hard way and avoid places like that,stay away from places like that,all of us!

this way you'll hit them the most because all thai are moneysick,no farang-no fuc_king money!!

and thats were it's all about here in this country....money from farang!!

respect???what is that? i get sick of this bullshit.

You are free to go home (if you stay here) or not to come here!

As a Farang, I get sick of all the farangs knowing things better, been there, done this already bla bla

Might be a reason that I do not have many farang friends here, because I am sick of listening the those self elected connaisseurs of Thailand.

Stop the crying and complaining!

btw: I think that goes all off topic here and maybe the thread should be closed...

[DerringDo]

There is a requirement for the bars in Pattaya to have CCTV so it would be possible to see what happened. It is a local law and a condition of the licence according to a friend of mine who has a bar.

[Miami Bob]

Here is a little differant twist that readers may have not thought of. One day while thinking about how Thais always gang up on Farangs in a fight it occured to me what thier point of view might be.......... these huge 100K guys from Germany, Sweden, etc. get heavy handed with the little Thai guys so the little Thais think " screw that, we're not letting these big foreigners come here to our country and push us around" so they gang up on us and teach us not to mess with the Thais. I suspect that's the way they look at it.

[teacherofwoe]

What's the attraction other than debortuary?

Would that be when you shag your way to the mortuary?

Possibly. Sorry about that: I'm some what dyslexic. The correct spelling is debuchery. Before I get loads off comments, yes, I shouldn't be teaching if i'm dyslexic.

[britmaveric]

As its been reported numerous times.................. THE ESTONIAN DID NOT DIE!!!!

[huggybear]

The men were told to make their way to Pattaya Police Station to make a report, however they decided to take matters into their own hands and went back to confront the Thai men. It is thought that more than 15 men set-upon the three Estonian Men.

In Thailand? To everyone out there. Walk away.

I don't care how tough you are, it makes no sense to get in a raucous in this country. No matter what it will end up badly.

If it ends up with the police, you'll probably end up having to pay some money, if you do like these blokes did, you end up injured or dead.

Walk away.

[meadow]

ttthailand - what you left out Estonians left and came back to start a scrap with thai lads that hassled them earlier in the evening. This was their mistake and btw man didnt die. Another bad report from Thai News papers.

Lived here and always stay a few months out of the year in Patters for nearly a decade or so. Never had a problem yet and thats because I use my head and have common sense. People lose this when they go on holiday for some bizzare reason think they are indestructible from bad things happening.

And how do you know what happened exactly? You admit the "bad report" by Thai media falsely claiming the demise of the guy - so how do you know that he actually went back to "start a scrap"??

[koheesti]

What's the attraction other than debortuary?

Would that be when you shag your way to the mortuary?

Possibly. Sorry about that: I'm some what dyslexic. The correct spelling is debuchery. Before I get loads off comments, yes, I shouldn't be teaching if i'm dyslexic.

Don't you mean debauchery?

[Ozziepaul]

Mark my words

There will be a time one day when the things that you fell in love with in Thailand,..... become things you hate most

Agreed 1000%.

That day has come and gone for my wife and myself.

We are just waiting on a few minor things to straighten out and then we're out of here.

My wife is appalled at the changes that have occurred in her country and she's only 32. I'm not that far ahead of her, age wise, and in my time here, have also witnessed a decline.

Anyway, to each their own, but we aint hanging around.

Big Paulee.

[hansnl]

Britmaveric beat me to it on this one. I don't understand why everybody is slagging the Thais.

This was NOT an unprovoked attack, these idiots decided to go back to take them on, and got what any reasonable person over here would expect.

This is very uncharacteristic of ethnic Estonians. I lived there 10 years and they aren't an aggressive bunch. When they release names I wouldn't be surprised if they were ethnic Russians who are Estonian citizens (over 30% of the total population). Russians don't like to take crap off of anyone. Either way it's always a tragedy when something like this happens. When I first went to Bangkok ten years ago we had read not to cause trouble at any of the bars because a door will open and a dozen little guys with machetes will come out. Apparetly that advice was close enough to the truth.

Well, Eesti men, when drunk, are like any drunk man: agressive, stupid, you name it.

As you state that Eesti men are normally not agressive, please ask some Suomi Farang, living in Helsinki, if he agrees with you.

When you are a guest in any country, please behave like a guest.

We. me including, sometime forget in our enthusiastic mood, to behave!

I am sorry for the man, but if you pick a fight as a foreigner in nearly every country, expect the locals to gang up on you, so better pull up your socks and underwear, and off you go!

If you are so stupid not to do that, expect to be treated like shit.

Indeed a high proportion of the workforce in Pattaya is from Isan, but is goes too far to state that this particular brand of Thai is more agressive.

The Isan is a very poor region, and people from here go to Bangkok and the other tourist towns to gain a living.

Maybe they are more agressive, but would you like to see your neighbour girl, your sister, your ex-girlfriend being "handled" by people from abroad?

I guess you would not like that and start to dislike the farang, and when there is an opening for ventilating your frustations, well, here we go, or maybe I should say there you go!

[brahmburgers]

prison mentality: when one member of a group gets threatened, every other member of that group jumps in the fray

..... and Thais get offended by any one of a thousand things, and go postal and get brutal in an instant. There's no such thing as a fair fight here - such as two people fighting with punches and kicks until a guy goes down - and that's about it.

Sad story. Exacerbated by the fact that the hospital and medics couldn't save the man with the badly cut leg. I've heard of people getting saved with worse injuries than a badly cut leg.

Familiarity breeds contempt, and Pattaya is a proof of that. Locals who worship the God of money, interact daily with farang, and the contempt factor increases proportionately.

[fobuff]

Well whats to expect.....

Do not get involved in idiotic behavior whit the locals.....

even the local toutist police...

Keep to yourself and walk away....

[PhilHarries]

What's the attraction other than debortuary?

Would that be when you shag your way to the mortuary?

Possibly. Sorry about that: I'm some what dyslexic. The correct spelling is debuchery. Before I get loads off comments, yes, I shouldn't be teaching if i'm dyslexic.

Don't you mean debauchery?

and he's a <deleted>' teacher?

We don't need no edjacation, we don't need no fought cantrol.....................

Edited January 23, 2008 by PhilHarries

[Canadianvisitor]

I am sorry the man died as I am if anyone dies.

That being said, there are places where you don't pick fights,

foreign countries being one of them.

Foreign countries lined with strip clubs in seedy areas really being one of them.

The strip clubs down the street from my house here in Canada also being one of them.

It is also run by the mob pick a fight in there and you will end up in the Emergency room.

The fact that people get away with murder in Thailand isn't really a secret.

Doesn't make it right I know, but Thailand is not a first world country, if it was,

there would be no go-go bars selling young girls.

I learned very young not to pick fights on the wrong block,

and I have learned that when I travel to abide by the laws of the land,

not necessarily the written ones.

Smile, nod your head, walk away, eat the dispair.

I like to go to Pattaya, I have made good friends there.

I like to go to walking street to the rock bar, I have never been interested

in buying young women for sex.

If some foreign guys came to my country just to screw and abuse the young women,

I really wouldn't like them very much, and I sure as hel_l wouln't respect them.

I do hope the death stops though, to me it paints the wrong picture of Thailand.

I was a bit shaken by the shooting death of the Canadian guy in the north,

this is quite a bit different in my opinion though.

Never a dull moment though is there.

[freitag1]

When people wake up and realize they are living in a third world country things will get a little bit easier... once they understand. Poor guys and lame Thai action of course but no surprise.

[Canadianvisitor]

1) I would prefer a Thai bar to a British bar but I would also prefer a black eye to a bottle in the leg or that steel bar on the head.

2) At first I thought the story might have come from Pattaya People until I saw the word "steal bar" - only crap papers or drunk bloggers make such mistakes.

3) When Brits and Canadians get murdered the Bangkok Post and the Nation love to run the story - I wonder if they care so much about these Estonians!

That being said, if a Canadian guy died from a cut from a bottle in a drunken bar brawl that HE started it sure wouldn't make the news here.

And if it did, they would just say the fool got what he deserved being disrespectful in a foreign land Rest his Soul and all that.

They guy died from being cut by a bottle in a bar brawl he started, I have seen worse here in Canada, I am sure everyone else has where they lived too. Death sells news, bar brawls don't sell much but more beer when the bottles all get broken.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Canadianvisitor

[rafval]

Here is a little differant twist that readers may have not thought of. One day while thinking about how Thais always gang up on Farangs in a fight it occured to me what thier point of view might be.......... these huge 100K guys from Germany, Sweden, etc. get heavy handed with the little Thai guys so the little Thais think " screw that, we're not letting these big foreigners come here to our country and push us around" so they gang up on us and teach us not to mess with the Thais. I suspect that's the way they look at it.

I think its probably just what happens when people have to take care of things themselves, its their only form of defense and justice and its works pretty well I think, for a country with no police Thailand is pretty peaceful, not a perfect system but I dont see it changing soon

[Scott]

My sympathies to the family and friends of the victim. Sadly, these guys did the right thing, they went to the police, who decided for whatever reason, not to be helpful. They were told to go to some "different" police.

Most folks when they actually make the leap of going to the police are in need of some sort of protection or justice. Basically it is a request to mediate and settle the score. The police most likely do or should no these guys and a nice stern talking to was probably all that was needed. When nothing happens the almost natural instinct is to take care of it yourself, which these unfortunate guys did. There's always an advantage to the home court.

The police there need a serious shake up it sounds like.