3 Estonian men involved in violence on Pattaya Walking Street

[andyc2006]

The most ignorant thing I've ever heard!!!

How is it Ignorant? I've been to Thailand many times and have even come close to marrying a Thai. They're one of the most xenophobic races on planet earth!

You're exaggerating. They're only ranked 2nd in xenophobia, based on a 2005 Gallup study. Turkey beat them out:

Philippines offers the world’s best welcome to migrants

The Philippines is globally the friendliest country to migrants, while Thailand has the biggest number of xenophobic citizens, according to a respected survey group.

The latest Gallup International “Voice of the People” poll also found that more than half of Asians - 56 percent - consider immigration “a good thing for their own country,” even as negative sentiments prevail in the world against people moving from their native land to settle in another country.

The study shows 87% of Filipinos believe immigration is good for the country whose own citizens - five million or so - have left to work and live in foreign lands. Malaysia is next to the Philippines in multiethnic Asia as most welcoming to migrants at 80%, followed by Vietnam at 68%.

Topping Asia and the world in animosity toward migrants at 82% is Thailand, whose robust economy attracts cross-border movements of people from neighboring Mekong countries fleeing poverty or countryside war. Taiwan is second most xenophobic in the region at 55%, followed by Hong Kong at 47% and Indonesia at 38%.

A similar polarity found in Asia can be seen in the Middle East. Turkey, a country where immigration is “most negatively regarded” at 87%, is in sharp contrast with Israel, where 87% of people favor immigration.

On a regional basis, Africa is top in embracing migrants at 63%, Asia-Pacific at 56% and North America at 54%.

In North America, 74% of Canadians are pro-immigration. Opinions are more divided in the United States, where immigration rules have become stringent following the September 11 terror attacks in 2001. Just over 44% of Americans do not support immigration.

The Middle East has the highest percentage of negative opinion toward immigrants at 67%, Eastern and Central Europe at 61% and Latin America at 53%.

One long-held theory on people’s intolerance toward migration involves fear that immigrants will rob locals of domestic jobs. “However, results from the Voice of the People survey do not back this view,” Gallup said.

“One of the main conclusions is that no difference can be found in the opinion of those working (44% believing immigration is good), those not working (45% and the unemployed (45%),” it said.

Conducted by market information company TNS, the Gallup International study interviewed around 55,000 citizens in close to 70 countries around the world.

And though Thailand has its own subsection on Wikipedia's page on xenophobia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia , so do 4 other countries, so it's not like they're uniquely xenophobic.

[moo9]

In this Wikipedia article the author writes about the words "farang", "kairk" and "negro", which are commonly used in the country for non asian looking people. I doubt that the usage of those words really have a xenophobic background. They are just daily language without any thoughts behind. Certainly Thai people are quite nationalistic but imho not extremely xenophobic. Exceptions confirming the rule, as always!

Apart from that, the "fear" of immigrants taking away domestic jobs should not be categorized as xenophobic. Those fears are very common in countries, which have neighboring countries with much lower economic power. So looking around Thailand you have to deal with illegal immigrants from Burma, Laos and Cambodia. Certainly each immigrant from those countries could be a possible thread for an average Thai industrial worker. So the high percentage in Thailand is quite understandable, but again, not xenophobic but simply driven by economic worries. However it is really surprising that 87 % of Filipinos believe that immigration is good, whereas 82 % of Thais think that it is bad. Huge difference!

[bob4you]

Pattaya City News website reported the "murder" of the Estonia man. Pattaya City News did remove the story without even providing the corrected version. Nice job Howard. Your are becoming more Thai everyday. Protect your wanabe Tourist cops buddies and your website without providing the truth. That's responsible reporting, right?

I quess it is still better than Pattaya Daily News. They would have reported condoms and viagara on the guy.

What's up with wierd guys in the Tourist Police volunteers? They seem rather strange by normal standards. I doubt any of them could become real police officers anywhere. They look like the wanabees at a gay uniform bar and look funny doing their goose step (or waddle in some cases) down walking street. Maybe testosterone injections would have help the volunteers the night the Estonia guys made their report.

You seem to have a gross misconception of what the Farang FTPA's job description is. They are not there to enforce laws, make arrests or break up fights between Thai street thugs and drunk Farang's. Their duties mainly are to assist tourists to understand differences between their laws, cultures and enforcement procedures and those in Thailand. You are right no police experience needed but a strong desire to give back to the Thai community and our fellow Farangs by assisting in their questions and problems.

The new requirement also is that they must be capable of speaking Thai.

One of their motto's is "Foreigners helping Foreigners". Each FTPA has a commitment to working at least 1 evening a week from 8:30pm to 2:30 am and even though we are not paid we no longer are called Volunteers. We are now "Foreign Tourist Police Assistants" thus FTPA.

I hope this clarifies your and many other's understanding of what their job is, and please no flaming remarks to this post as it was not my intention to inflame anyone.

Mahalo

[Galong]

There seems to me to be a very common theme in most of the violence we read about... alcohol! It is the root of many evils and should be illegal.

What strange church you belong too?

I don't belong to any church. I'm a free thinker thank you. But, it's hard to deny that alcohol is so dangerous and responsible for so much of the violence.

[Artcoder]

Thanks for the comments to this sad affair.

One point from me is. Many wrote about "a Fair fight." This idea of a fair fight is rather silly.

Too much TV and too many fantasy books. Just because a fight is one against one does not make it "fair". There are just too many variables. Weight, training, number of previous fights etc.

If a tourist was to fight a UFC champion one against one. Would that be fair.?

Calling people cowards because they fight with unequal numbers on their side side is also silly in my opinion.

The real situation is you take every advantage you can and win. Any thing else is maddness.

[Galong]

And though Thailand has its own subsection on Wikipedia's page on xenophobia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia , so do 4 other countries, so it's not like they're uniquely xenophobic.

Thanks for that link... very interesting. I hope the Thais realize how bad they look to many citizens from many other countries. I seriously doubt that they care however... you know, Thailand being the center of the universe and all.

I like the sentence, "Thai will give his or her last drop of blood to prevent a single inch of the country ever being ruled by an invader" Um, Thailand was colonized from the inside by the Chinese. I don't remember any blood being spent preventing that from happening.

[distortedlink]

Britmaveric beat me to it on this one. I don't understand why everybody is slagging the Thais.

This was NOT an unprovoked attack, these idiots decided to go back to take them on, and got what any reasonable person over here would expect.

Yes they are cowards, and yes 5 on one is the norm, but would you go looking for a fight in any other foreign country and not expect the locals to back each other up?

AGREED

Whatever way one looks at this, Thais will always believe that Farangs have lots of money and occasionally we will get hassled to buy things or hard core pestered in other ways to part with our dosh. Farangs resident and holidaying in Thailand should accept this.

The common sense way to deal with being hassled if you suddenly find yourself in an dicey situation, especially if in a seedy area is, with a smile make a polite excuse that you have not enough money & will come back later, or turn your back and walk away, or just say no thank you and if the people get nasty, get out fast and stay clear.

Farang aggression that these days are part of everyday life in the Western world will not be tolerated here. These dead and injured Farangs felt too butch to let a few Thai men get the better of them, they lost face and wouldn't let the matter end.

Of course maybe these Farangs could be part of a rival gang, it wouldn't surprise me with all the high amount of Farang dross that are living in Thailand.

Whatever, these guys came unstuck by their idiotic actions, so what and who is going to mourn for them?

Edited January 25, 2008 by distortedlink

[lacalfarangdude]

From a different perspective.......

i owned a 8000sq foot nightclub some years ago, in asia, had it for 5 years. Lots of people intoxicated, thumping DJ, banging tunes, great money, seven bouncers, security cams, police hotline numbers, big boys hotline numbers, in an area much like the area in question.

They were the worst years of my life. It is one of the hardest, all consuming, soul destroying path one could ever walk down. Dont reccommend it to anyone. its not all fun and games. You have to keep an eye on everything, all at one time, while drinking on the job. Comes with the territory. That being said.......

Ive seen every fight imaginable. Ive seen a group of 20, very large Rugby boys, (consisting of different nationalities and backgrounds beat an average size asian man almost to death, he lost one eye, and a leg. I've seen a group of nigerians hack at a couple of defenseless girls. I've seen huge gangs of nepalese completely pulverize one of their own to a pile of mush (wait til youve seen a nepalese gang fight, its horrific!), I've seen Fhilipinos, Thais, Chinese, Americans, Europeans, Australians, Christians, Jews, Musilims, whatever.... fight for many different curcumstances and it all leads back to this.

Drinking excessive amounts of alcohol does one of two things to the human body.

Its makes you sad and depressed, so you drown your sorrows.....

or as from what i have seen, it makes people angry, aggressive and in most cases extremely violent. The more they drink the worse its gonna get. A slight verbal misunderstanding, a harmless flurt to the wrong girl, an accidental bump in a crowded bar, is always the smallest thing that sets off the biggest bang.

In both cases..... Alcohol impaires your judgement. maybe the alcohol impaired the judgement these three guys. They should not have gone back, that was point of no return, the outcome was inevidable.

From what i have read, the man is not dead, fortunately.

I have yet to hear of any violence caused from excessive amounts of pot smoking.

When was the last time you heard of a husband beating up his wife cause he was too stoned, sitting watching the football.

I think the football hooligans should get lots of pot for free.......guarrenteed the riots will stop and restaurant sales will increase.

[lacalfarangdude]

Edited January 25, 2008 by lacalfarangdude

[damian5000]

In the USA it is daily routine and nobody complain .

I would never say it's daily routine. We tend to just shoot people, instead of bleeding them with a broken bottle. The difference in the U.S. is that the cops would have something to say about this, instead of just a bunch of people on a forum.

For some reason I doubt you've been there.

Good post. The police in every city I've been in Thailand are a joke. You'd be better off wasting your time playing tiddlywinks than filing any type of complaint to the police. This is still a 3rd world country though and these people have no clue how to deal with "modern civilization". Somehow I doubt they'll figure it out soon. I hate to say it, but things will only get worse in regards to violence and crime in Thailand.

[mikethevigoman]

From a different perspective.......

i owned a 8000sq foot nightclub some years ago, in asia, had it for 5 years. Lots of people intoxicated, thumping DJ, banging tunes, great money, seven bouncers, security cams, police hotline numbers, big boys hotline numbers, in an area much like the area in question.

They were the worst years of my life. It is one of the hardest, all consuming, soul destroying path one could ever walk down. Dont reccommend it to anyone. its not all fun and games. You have to keep an eye on everything, all at one time, while drinking on the job. Comes with the territory. That being said.......

Ive seen every fight imaginable. Ive seen a group of 20, very large Rugby boys, (consisting of different nationalities and backgrounds beat an average size asian man almost to death, he lost one eye, and a leg. I've seen a group of nigerians hack at a couple of defenseless girls. I've seen huge gangs of nepalese completely pulverize one of their own to a pile of mush (wait til youve seen a nepalese gang fight, its horrific!), I've seen Fhilipinos, Thais, Chinese, Americans, Europeans, Australians, Christians, Jews, Musilims, whatever.... fight for many different curcumstances and it all leads back to this.

Drinking excessive amounts of alcohol does one of two things to the human body.

Its makes you sad and depressed, so you drown your sorrows.....

or as from what i have seen, it makes people angry, aggressive and in most cases extremely violent. The more they drink the worse its gonna get. A slight verbal misunderstanding, a harmless flurt to the wrong girl, an accidental bump in a crowded bar, is always the smallest thing that sets off the biggest bang.

In both cases..... Alcohol impaires your judgement. maybe the alcohol impaired the judgement these three guys. They should not have gone back, that was point of no return, the outcome was inevidable.

From what i have read, the man is not dead, fortunately.

I have yet to hear of any violence caused from excessive amounts of pot smoking.

When was the last time you heard of a husband beating up his wife cause he was too stoned, sitting watching the football.

I think the football hooligans should get lots of pot for free.......guarrenteed the riots will stop and restaurant sales will increase.

I agree, there is only one side of the bar to be,. Edited January 26, 2008 by mikethevigoman

[mikethevigoman]

In the USA it is daily routine and nobody complain .

I would never say it's daily routine. We tend to just shoot people, instead of bleeding them with a broken bottle. The difference in the U.S. is that the cops would have something to say about this, instead of just a bunch of people on a forum.

For some reason I doubt you've been there.

Good post. The police in every city I've been in Thailand are a joke. You'd be better off wasting your time playing tiddlywinks than filing any type of complaint to the police. This is still a 3rd world country though and these people have no clue how to deal with "modern civilization". Somehow I doubt they'll figure it out soon. I hate to say it, but things will only get worse in regards to violence and crime in Thailand.

IF making a police report unless there is money to be made the police dont even look up from eating there food !

[mikethevigoman]

I think another point here is why the guy died from a leg injury, it is not difficult to stop a bleeder even from a main artery, packed tight enough it will stop, he made it to hospital alive why couldn't they save him.

As we all know now reports of his death were grossly exagerated !, a bit like that headline in turkey years ago " earthquake strikes, not many killed !,

[damian5000]

IF making a police report unless there is money to be made the police dont even look up from eating there food !

Laughing.......Well put...

[Scott]

It's sad that so many people want to put this in some sort of a racial context. Fights occur everywhere and unfair fights occur everywhere as well. The rules of what is considered fair also change with different countries and cultures. In Thailand, as someone has already said, they fight to win, whatever means are necessary. That's not just with foreigners, but amongst themselves as well.

As nice as Thai people can be, they can likewise be just as nasty. Best not to mess with the locals.

[koheesti]

Drinking excessive amounts of alcohol does one of two things to the human body.

Its makes you sad and depressed, so you drown your sorrows.....

or as from what i have seen, it makes people angry, aggressive and in most cases extremely violent. The more they drink the worse its gonna get. A slight verbal misunderstanding, a harmless flurt to the wrong girl, an accidental bump in a crowded bar, is always the smallest thing that sets off the biggest bang.

In both cases..... Alcohol impaires your judgement. maybe the alcohol impaired the judgement these three guys. They should not have gone back, that was point of no return, the outcome was inevidable.

The 3rd thing it might do is make you happy. I'm a very happy drunk. I never get sad or angry when I'm drunk. My judgement certainly becomes impaired though because I start spending more than I should.

[johnwills]

A terrible incident and even though Pattaya is not a fair representative of Thailand , it is something for those who keep slagging off the UK as a hellhole, something to pontificate over.

RIP

Well, awful incident though this was, things like this happen every weekend in most major cities in the UK. Thailand's got a long way to go before it catches up with the UK.

Err, slight exaggeration, I don't see gangs on motorcycles tooled up with machetes in the UK and for sure there are more murders in Thailand than the UK

[distortedlink]

I really do get pi--ed off with some jerks on these posts who slag off Thailand and the Thai people.

My wife is Thai and my daughter half English, half Thai. These comments are an insult to my family and other Westerners living here that have Thai families.

Thai people are fully aware that some Farangs have low opinions of them. The jerks are not doing themselves any favours or making things any better for the Westerners that live in Thailand.

We are guests in this country and if because of the comments of some jerk Farangs mutual respect between Farangs and Thais is lost, we cannot exist here.

For the loud mouthed Jerks that live here, I suggest that they return home and discriminate against foreigners in their own countries where maybe a few of their own nationals will believe they are superior and pretend that they are not idiots.

I would like to see the moderators ban these sort of posts. I thought that Thaivisa is for the benefit of Farangs living in Thailand as a source of information and decent comment, not for the slagging off of the Thai people whom many of us have to coincide with and after all, Thailand is our host nation and as we know, a host can tell us to bugger off at anytime if we become troublesome.

In any country for those who like to frequent the sleazy areas looking for cheap sex and cheap thrills, should know that they are putting themselves at risk and also more open to violence. The police have enough on their plate and have no interest in being mediators in a dispute between a load of low lives. Visitors who visit the dodgy areas should know the risks. Their options are to either visit these places or stay away, it's up to them and if they get robbed or hurt, it's their problem for being in the area in the first place.

One particular sleazy part of town does not represent the whole country or it's people or even other parts of the same city.

As for those who believe that the murder rates in Thailand are higher than in the UK, the main reason is because of the undeclared civil war that is going on in the troubled South. Most other parts of Thailand are mild in crime compared to the UK.

Edited January 26, 2008 by distortedlink

[sweetchariot]

I am just reading the Pattaya People, and nearly fell off the lav laughing.

Our highly esteemed expat leader, who is also a FPV, is now slagging off the Tourist Police for failing in their duties. Hmmm..........Trying to score a few brownie points perhaps?

Thay are also slagging off the 'inferior' news agencies for getting all the facts wrong. This is especially funny when their report says there were only 2 Estonians who were set upon by knives. Hmmm.........

Apparently it was a 'Mafia style gang attack'.

'Even with the Tourist Police and Volunteer Tourist Police there'. Hmmm.....obviously not as good as the FPV who hide away in soi 9 nick twice a month.

Final quote 'this case could damage the fragile image of Pattaya tourism'. Well it will when you start talking about unprovoked mafia knife attacks.....<deleted>?

[BigSnake]

Watch your back my Brother, many many locals are down right backerSTABBERS> Police top the list.

[sweetchariot]

Oh by the way, what is a 'Street Barker'? (as per Pataya People). I have heard of hawkers, but the only Barker I have heard of is Ronnie, God rest his soul.

[madjbs]

I really do get pi--ed off with some jerks on these posts who slag off Thailand and the Thai people.

Best post yet

[Kerryd]

Oh by the way, what is a 'Street Barker'? (as per Pataya People). I have heard of hawkers, but the only Barker I have heard of is Ronnie, God rest his soul.

Street "Hawkers" are those that try to sell you stuff (try to "hawk" their wares).

Street "Barkers" are those people that try and lure you into the establishment they are being paid by (they "bark" about how great their place is).

There used to be only two sure things in life, death and taxes. However, those exposed to the various media organizations in Pattaya know that there are actually three surities:

Death

Taxes

Amazingly inaccurate (bordering on incompetent) media coverage of major (criminal) events.

I'm amazed (though I should be used to it by now) how 2, 3 or 4 different news organizations can cover the same story, and end up with different names for the victim (or accused wrong-doer), different addresses, different ages/nationalities, different accounts of what happened, number of people involved, etc, etc.

Oh yeah. "Mafia Style" attack with knives ? Give me a break. "Mafia Style" is two bullets in the back of the head of a kneeling victim.

Gang attack with knives is more "Tong", "Triad" or "Yakuza" style or just plain "punk" (in some places also known as "swarming").

[parmi]

You can try and rationalise it or compare it with other countries problems, but this is an all time low.

I agree - Walking Street is a sleazy place.

WALKING STREET IS A SLEAZY PLACE,

In the many years i have been in thailand,i have seen walking st go from a adult disneyland, to a brutal agressive expensive anything goes shit hole of a thourist spot, with no one really knowing who is coming and who is going there, i for one will not be frequenting any of the new bars or clubs on walking st any longer, and i am REALLY thinking of a new town if not country to move to,

and its a real shame, because there are so many farang trying to do so much for pattaya, but sorry guys, its like the drug wars of the eighties, YOU JUST CANT WIN THIS ONE, but good luck for trying.

[britmaveric]

[Kerryd]

Don't worry brit, there will still be lots of tourists to watch you and kurgen dancing at Jenny's !

(and no touts to cause problems for your potential customers !)

[joskydive]

You can try and rationalise it or compare it with other countries problems, but this is an all time low.

I agree - Walking Street is a sleazy place.

WALKING STREET IS A SLEAZY PLACE,

In the many years i have been in thailand,i have seen walking st go from a adult disneyland, to a brutal agressive expensive anything goes shit hole of a thourist spot, with no one really knowing who is coming and who is going there, i for one will not be frequenting any of the new bars or clubs on walking st any longer, and i am REALLY thinking of a new town if not country to move to,

and its a real shame, because there are so many farang trying to do so much for pattaya, but sorry guys, its like the drug wars of the eighties, YOU JUST CANT WIN THIS ONE, but good luck for trying.

Walking Street may be a Sleazy place but after all that, who made it that way? Most of the bars and clubs are owned by Falangs. Most of the bars and clubs are frequented by Falangs.

People frequent this area because this is what they are looking for, otherwise, they wouldn't go there. It's basically supply and demand! If there wasn't the demand for the sleaze, walking street wouldn't exist. As it is, Walking Street and it's owners are doing very well thank you.

As for the touts and barkers they are just trying to make money off the rich falangs who go there and yes, they will protect themselves and fellow touts and barkers because they all think that the rich falang can just go to the ATM to get more cash when they need it but if they don't earn money on a daily basis, they don't eat.

I can imagine what is manifesting in the brains of the touts and barkers when they see, on a daily basis, falangs, drunken and abusive or not walking around this area thinking they can do anything they want and have anything they want because they have money.

Although I don't condone what has happened to these three Estonians, I do understand.

We, as falangs have made this place what it is today. Congrats' all round.

[andyc2006]

Walking Street may be a Sleazy place but after all that, who made it that way? Most of the bars and clubs are owned by Falangs. Most of the bars and clubs are frequented by Falangs.

People frequent this area because this is what they are looking for, otherwise, they wouldn't go there. It's basically supply and demand! If there wasn't the demand for the sleaze, walking street wouldn't exist. As it is, Walking Street and it's owners are doing very well thank you.

As for the touts and barkers they are just trying to make money off the rich falangs who go there and yes, they will protect themselves and fellow touts and barkers because they all think that the rich falang can just go to the ATM to get more cash when they need it but if they don't earn money on a daily basis, they don't eat.

I can imagine what is manifesting in the brains of the touts and barkers when they see, on a daily basis, falangs, drunken and abusive or not walking around this area thinking they can do anything they want and have anything they want because they have money.

Although I don't condone what has happened to these three Estonians, I do understand.

We, as falangs have made this place what it is today. Congrats' all round.

So, which are you saying:

1) Farangs are committing the bulk of crimes on Walking Street, or

2) If farangs didn't go to Walking Street, predators wouldn't go there to take their money, therefore it's the farangs' fault since they lure the criminals there.

???

Just curious.

One sounds like the (legendary) logic used to put farangs at fault for every car accident in Thailand: "if the farang hadn't gone to Thailand, the drunk driver would never have rear-ended him!"

[Jiu-Jitsu]

You can try and rationalise it or compare it with other countries problems, but this is an all time low.

I agree - Walking Street is a sleazy place.

The country of is Thailand sleazy. Sleasy police, sleazy government, sleazy justice, sleazy laws. Besides, even if they catch these

low life Thai people and put them in jail, they will be out running free the very next day. The Thai people

which murder foreigners always go free. Thailand is known internationally as the cesspool of the earth.

Way, way off the mark moo9.

Terrible posting. I don't think you have traveled a lot.

Take your pork butt to Jakarta, Mogadishu or one of many African cities and you will truly see what you describe.

No, Thailand is a great place, all countries/cities have their low points, but overall the LOS is a great place.

Sorry you feel the way you do, I sure hope you don't live here.

I'm sure my friend Antonio will be flattered that you have chosen his likeness.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Pattaya City News website reported the "murder" of the Estonia man. Pattaya City News did remove the story without even providing the corrected version. Nice job Howard. Your are becoming more Thai everyday. Protect your wanabe Tourist cops buddies and your website without providing the truth. That's responsible reporting, right?

I quess it is still better than Pattaya Daily News. They would have reported condoms and viagara on the guy.

What's up with wierd guys in the Tourist Police volunteers? They seem rather strange by normal standards. I doubt any of them could become real police officers anywhere. They look like the wanabees at a gay uniform bar and look funny doing their goose step (or waddle in some cases) down walking street. Maybe testosterone injections would have help the volunteers the night the Estonia guys made their report.

You seem to have a gross misconception of what the Farang FTPA's job description is. They are not there to enforce laws, make arrests or break up fights between Thai street thugs and drunk Farang's. Their duties mainly are to assist tourists to understand differences between their laws, cultures and enforcement procedures and those in Thailand. You are right no police experience needed but a strong desire to give back to the Thai community and our fellow Farangs by assisting in their questions and problems.

The new requirement also is that they must be capable of speaking Thai.

One of their motto's is "Foreigners helping Foreigners". Each FTPA has a commitment to working at least 1 evening a week from 8:30pm to 2:30 am and even though we are not paid we no longer are called Volunteers. We are now "Foreign Tourist Police Assistants" thus FTPA.

I hope this clarifies your and many other's understanding of what their job is, and please no flaming remarks to this post as it was not my intention to inflame anyone.

Mahalo

That doesn't stop some of them trying to ACT like fascist policemen.