3 Estonian men involved in violence on Pattaya Walking Street

[jimlad]

[The incident, which is now a murder investigation, occurred only meters away from the Tourist Police Unit a

Who, no doubt, being the corrupt, xenophobic and predjudiced f*ckers that they are probably turned a blind eye...

and is now being investigated by Pattaya Police and the Tourist Police as the hunt for the attackers continues. We understand that as of Monday Afternoon, no arrests had been made in connection with the attack.

Surprise, Surprise!

[aehn]

You can try and rationalise it or compare it with other countries problems, but this is an all time low.

I agree - Walking Street is a sleazy place.

You know for the first time in 8 years i went out last night into walking st and was bored, it dosent have the fun factor it used to have and you know the smiles and women are only interested in your money and when things turn ugly this sort of thing is all too common place, yes it is sleazy ,ill leave it for the tourists i think,i wish they would listen to some advice though

The more farangs coming to Thailand, the worse it gets, sad but true.

[ThaiPauly]

I went to Pattaya for 3 days last year...stayed one...a freind took me to Walking Street with my Wife...then into a bar ...I have never been so embarrassed.

Walking Street makes Soi Cowboy look like a Kindergarten.

Pattaya is the armpit of Thailand IMO

This sort of incedent does not surprise me at all.

better off in CM where this kind of event is very rare

[Robski]

marshbags Today, 2008-01-22 17:07:13

I,m an old soldier when it comes to knowing the usual outcome of these confrontations and yes i do keep my cool and get out of the area fast.

Tourists however do not and why this should be used as an excuse for this tragedy is beyond me.

On the contrary according to several so called wise men, it was their fault for not being aware of the fact that x number of Cowardly Thais are in waiting to kick / beat / stab / shoot the life out of them, for little excuse or non at all.

Shame on the ones who have posted in this fashion and instead of being concerned about repeated attacks, seemingly are dismissive of it as just another idiot ( not my description but a re quote ) who was to blame for not understanding the locals or the usual outcome.

Well said

Bottom line is when are the police force in this country going to get overhauled?

Edited January 22, 2008 by Robski

[gharknes]

I have heard of many similar incidents on soi 15/16/17 on walking street, Thais are cowards, these guys seem to rally in large numbers with potentially lethal weapons to use on a single falang, I'd love to see a large number of falangs get together and go down there, see how brave they are then.

RIP

[basjke]

I am very sad.

I have lived here about 2 years now and visited here for 15 years.

When folks asked me why I wanted to move to Thailand one of my top reasons was the people.

Now it has become one of the main reason to leave.

And do you think that things changed during those 2 years you live here?NO.But tourists see things different way.

[aehn]

Walking Street is a cesspit, and if you decide to enter the pit you have to be prepared for the possible outcome. There are plenty of decent places in Thailand where you can walk around and enjoy life in relative safety.

After all, these farangs were probably not just walkin around in peace, and if someone are lookin for a fight, i am sure Thais arent that different than other humans, some of them will fight back.

Even in the more remote non-farang areas, thais will of course get pissed if you try to start a fight with em.

[harpman88]

The incident, which is now a murder investigation, occurred only meters away from the Tourist Police Unit.

So the guys didn't want to go in the bar, the Thais got hostile, the guys make a complaint and are told to take it to the police station.

Basically a big FO.

The guys get angry and return to sort it out themselves as they see that the authorities aren't interested.

They are outnumbered 5 to 1, viciously beaten and one murdered within metres of the Tourist police point and no one is held responsible.

What a f@cking sick country Thailand has turned into.

You can try and rationalise it or compare it with other countries problems, but this is an all time low.

Give me a break Bud,Incidents like this,almost always fueled by alcohol,happen all over the world.You see them all the time on "reality" TV ,videotaped by onlookers. Thailand is no "sicker" of a country than anyplace else.

[aehn]

I thought that was the nature of fights, thats why I avoid them, if you deliberately start one you take the chance of getting hurt,

Yes, it is actually s simple as that.

and on top of that if it was the thais that had gone back to fight the forum would be complaining about how thais lose face too easily

Yup, exactly

[the_webninja]

It is obviously a sad thing when someone dies, but in my studies of International Law, one of the first things they teach you is not to get into Fights with the Locals, which constitutes an "International Incident" not to mention as everyone pointed out the Locals tend to back each other up which lowers the odds a bit. The fact that these guys COULD have walked away from this incident proves they were LOOKING for Trouble. The Thai Guys more than likely looked at the other Guy's attack as an insult to them. (You are suppose to Respect your Host even if your Host is not nice). So the Thai Guys more than likely felt like it was some kind of Patriotic Duty to beat the living crap out of these Foriegners to teach them some respect. Besides the Thai Guys more than likely were just doing what they were told to do, in trying to get Customers into the bar in the first place, I don't think they were out there trying to intentionally try to offend people. So when the Foriegners reacted with an Attitude and tried to start a fight, the Thai guys probably felt like they had to defend themselves, after all they were just at work doing their jobs, and a bunch of Foriegners try to pick a fight with them? What are they suppose to do? They are being PAID to work there, the Foriegners could have gone anywhere else they wanted, but the Thai Guys had to stay at that Location because they were being Paid to be there. It seems to me, like a grave misunderstanding that got out of Control. I don't think the Thai guy that Stabbed the Guy in the Leg was trying to Kill the guy, or he might have tried to Stab the guy in the Face instead of the Leg or maybe in the heart, but he chose to stab him in the Leg more than likely to stop the guy from moving forward towards the Thai Guys. If the guy can't walk, then he can't fight too well. So the Thai Guy was most likely going for a Mobility wound, not a Fatal Strike. Many Thai Guys play around with Martial Arts a lot, I am also a Martial Artist, and if you are a Martial Artist you know very well the difference between landing a Fatal Strike, and Landing a Wound to stop an attacker from moving forward towards you. Just from the looks of it, that wound was made in defense not in Offense.

The fact the guy died from that wound was most likely purely an accident on both sides of the fence.

Each group is equally guilty for this Tragedy from my perspective.

I hope that some good may come from this, maybe the Pattaya Police might pay closer attention to Walking Street, instead of relying on the Tourist Police to handle it all the time. In the Philippines they have an armed Guard outside every Bar. (Almost) I don't think Thailand needs to get to that point, but a little extra security might not be a bad idea.

I don't think Walking Street is Sleazy, Walking Street is one of my favorite places in the Whole World, and I have been many many place on this Planet. I like eating the Barbecue they cook down there, I like walking from Bar to Bar and Joking around with the Girls, and they always have treated me good when I was there. I never had to worry about anything walking down Walking street. When I lived in the Philippines I had to worry about being shot every time I walked around the Corner by the NPA. In Mexico I have to worry about the Cops planting Drugs on me or Arresting me because I am carrying a Cell phone which is Considered Contraband in Mexico.

In Thailand the Customs and Police are always fair with me, I never have a feeling of Fear when I am in Thailand like I do in other Countries. In Thailand I always feel at home. I Respect the Thai people because of this, I respect the Police because they treat me fair, and I show respect to every Thai person I meet as if they are my own Blood. And I have never had a Problem in Thailand, instead the Thai people I have met have gone out of their Way to help me. Many times I have Girls who stayed with me for Free just because they wanted my Company, I had a College Girl who had her own Apartment offer me a place to stay when I was coming to Thailand, I had many Nice Girls in Thailand who didn't work in the Bars that treated me like Family. So I don't like the Characterizations about Thai people only doing things for Foriegners just because they want Money, That sounds Racist to me, and if you feel that way, you need to get out of Thailand as soon as possible and get to where you believe the people don't do it just for the money.

This is a Sad Story, I am sorry the Guy Died, I am sorry the Fight took place, but I think that each side of this Story needs to be carefully understood before jumping to Racist Conclusions, and Degrading Thailand because of this Incident.

Sua*

[whorouly]

Well its unfortunate for the estonian man, but pretty stupid behaviour on their part. They go back and decided to fight??? Logic says I am a foreigner in another country, perhaps not good idea to do such a thing.

Anyways - stupid behaviour in Thailand can cost you quite dearly - you want trouble you will certainly find it in spades.

I have to agree with britmaveric.

It's sad the guy died but you'd have to be a moron to deliberately get into a fight in another country. I don't live here, just a regular visitor who has never had any trouble but I am constantly amazed at the sheer arrogance and ignorance shown towards Thais and their culture/country by some tourists who seem to think they can do what they like and that Thailand is just a big amusement park and Thais are there to serve them. I wish these types would stay away,and this even applies to a few expats.

[marioDC]

I'm amazed to read some of the replies on here ... Things like this happen every day and all over the world.

Not the least to say that the past few years it's gotten a lot worse in Europe.

People get murdered for a sigaret, an mp3-player, even for trying to help others ...

Okay, this happened in a tourist place, but hey, Walking street is far from a reference to the wonderful country Thailand is.

And everyone knows you shouldn't bother thai, especially on sites like those ...

Remember, it's nickname is LOS, so keep smiling, nomatter what...

[GungaDin]

Shouldn't the title of this topic read "Estonian man LIVES after attack on Walking Street".

I dunno, there's never a mod around when you need one.

Where's Britmaveric? Offshore again, I guess!

Good to know that the foolish Estonian survived the beating.

[koheesti]

The men should not have been attacked, yet going back to confront in a volatile situation in Thailand is a no no.

Sympathy to his family.

He's not dead according to the report from Estonia.

[meadow]

The Foreign Ministry of Estonia has confirmed that the guy is alive.

I'm amazed how everyone becomes an expert on the topic even though the only source of information is (at least partly) false report from Pattaya City News.

[aehn]

I don't live here, just a regular visitor who has never had any trouble but I am constantly amazed at the sheer arrogance and ignorance shown towards Thais and their culture/country by some tourists who seem to think they can do what they like and that Thailand is just a big amusement park and Thais are there to serve them. I wish these types would stay away,and this even applies to a few expats.

Could not agree more.

Edited January 22, 2008 by aehn

[andyc2006]

I always see so much anger against the Thai in topics like this. People are real bitter and think all Thais are out to get you. In my home country in bars this happens too. If you confront the wrong group you dont get a fair fight. But now bohoo bad Thais this bad Thais that. Face it the guys came back to start a fight.

I don't condone killing or mobbing up on a few guys but in reality it happens everywhere not just here.

Violence is human nature and happens in every country, but...

The Thais have a specific form that involves huge escalation, by attempting to greatly outnumber their opponents, use weapons, and then beat them well beyond what's "necessary."

I just explained what happened (in the article above) to the teerak, without giving an opinion, the first thing she said when I said Thai men killed a farang was "farang steal something?" And then after hearing the full story, she said, "yes, i see 20 Thai man fight 2 Thai man."

So it's not just a "gang up on the farang" thing. It's just their way.

I then commented to her that, "they have no honor" (without specifying whom I meant by "they"). Her response was, "yes I think too."

Most farangs are accustomed to 1-on-1 fights using only their own body parts, and consider it shameful to introduce weapons in a fight or receive help from friends. Stupid on their part to assume that things operate the same way throughout the world, but that doesn't mean they're deserving of severe beatings that may lead to death, as it did in this case.

Edited January 22, 2008 by ajc1970

[jimlad]

Britmaveric beat me to it on this one. I don't understand why everybody is slagging the Thais.

Who's slagging Thais? Not all Thais are like the cowardly and morally corrupt mob here on Walking Street that decided to join in with their mates and beat the living sh*t out of some farangs simply because they were farangs.

This was NOT an unprovoked attack, these idiots decided to go back to take them on, and got what any reasonable person over here would expect.

So in other words, if you are a foreign tourist who is seriously wronged by a Thai and the Police will not help you, do not expect to stand up for yourself without getting annihilated by a bunch of Thai men who decide to attack you for no other reason than you are a farang and they are sticking up for their Thai mates? Hardly paints a pleasant picture for prospective tourists to the LOS does it now??

Yes they are cowards, and yes 5 on one is the norm, but would you go looking for a fight in any other foreign country and not expect the locals to back each other up?

Let's examine the logic of this for a tick... Sweetchariot, I do not know what country you come from or your racial background, nor do I care to be honest. However, hypothetically, if you went down to your local pub/bar and saw a bunch of guys who were from your own race and lived in your area beating the living sh*t out of two Thai men, would you join in and land a few punches and kicks on the Thais yourself without knowing the reason for the altercation?

Hypothetically if I see some local Romper Stompers (Neo Nazis) in my area beating some Asian guys to a bloody pulp should I join in because they are the same race as I am, regardless of the fact that I don't share their political convictions or racist tendancies, or even know the motives behind beating them up? Because let's face it, there is little or no difference between this scenario and what occured on walking street that night.

The only difference is of course, the morals or lack there of. i.e. In the above scenario rather than help the Neo thugs, I'd be calling the Police or at least try and help the Asian guys getting beaten by trying to break up the fight etc. Where were the Morals on Walking Street that night?

And please... spare me the bullsh*t about cultural differences between Thai and Western Society. Every cultural background has at least some basic moral principles and ideas of right and wrong.

I'm actually sick and tired of Farangs sticking up for Thais in issues like these as if they were a poor, downtrodden persecuted race! It's about time Farangs stood by one another instead of looking at it from the predudiced and xehophopic Thai viewpoint. After all, they stick together regardless of whether they're in the wrong. So should we!

Edited January 22, 2008 by jimlad

[ariaby]

Who do you think tourist police is, Mi6 agents trained to protect tourists on walking street? no they are usually retired people looking to help tourists, seems nobody knows about their job, they can’t use any guns or arrest people simply they are just translators or guides.

You can become a tourist police tomorrow, just buy your cloth and your favourite James bond stuffs at front of pattaya police station.

Edited January 22, 2008 by ariaby

[burman]

The Thais have a specific form that involves huge escalation, by attempting to greatly outnumber their opponents, use weapons, and then beat them well beyond what's "necessary."

I just explained what happened (in the article above) to the teerak, without giving an opinion, the first thing she said when I said Thai men killed a farang was "farang steal something?" And then after hearing the full story, she said, "yes, i see 20 Thai man fight 2 Thai man."

So it's not just a "gang up on the farang" thing. It's just their way.

I then commented to her that, "they have no honor" (without specifying whom I meant by "they"). Her response was, "yes I think too."

Most farangs are accustomed to 1-on-1 fights using only their own body parts, and consider it shameful to introduce weapons in a fight or receive help from friends. Stupid on their part to assume that things operate the same way throughout the world, but that doesn't mean they're deserving of severe beatings that may lead to death, as it did in this case.

Farang have more honour and are accustomed to 1 on 1 fights and not using weapons? Sorry but what a load of b/shit, in the UK it's often 5 on 1 in a fight, and bottles, knives and whatever else is to hand are used. Only difference in the west is we film it and put it up on youtube.

[burman]

Let's examine the logic of this for a tick... Sweetchariot, I do not know what country you come from or your racial background, nor do I care to be honest. However, hypothetically, if you went down to your local pub/bar and saw a bunch of guys who were from your own race and lived in your area beating the living sh*t out of two Thai men, would you join in and land a few punches and kicks on the Thais yourself without knowing the reason for the altercation?

Hypothetically if I see some local Romper Stompers (Neo Nazis) in my area beating some Asian guys to a bloody pulp should I join in because they are the same race as I am, regardless of the fact that I don't share their political convictions or racist tendancies, or even know the motives behind beating them up? Because let's face it, there is little or no difference between this scenario and what occured on walking street that night.

The only difference is of course, the morals or lack there of. i.e. In the above scenario rather than help the Neo thugs, I'd be calling the Police or at least try and help the Asian guys getting beaten by trying to break up the fight etc. Where were the Morals on Walking Street that night?

The difference of course is that these Thais knew each other whereas you don't know the guys in the pub or the neo nazis. Different scenario.

[Robski]

The incident, which is now a murder investigation, occurred only meters away from the Tourist Police Unit.

So the guys didn't want to go in the bar, the Thais got hostile, the guys make a complaint and are told to take it to the police station.

Basically a big FO.

The guys get angry and return to sort it out themselves as they see that the authorities aren't interested.

They are outnumbered 5 to 1, viciously beaten and one murdered within metres of the Tourist police point and no one is held responsible.

What a f@cking sick country Thailand has turned into.

You can try and rationalise it or compare it with other countries problems, but this is an all time low.

Give me a break Bud,Incidents like this,almost always fueled by alcohol,happen all over the world.You see them all the time on "reality" TV ,videotaped by onlookers. Thailand is no "sicker" of a country than anyplace else.

Thing is 'Bud' these things do happen in many other tourist destinations, but it seems in Thailand there is no accountability as far as the police are concerned, and this attack happened within metres of a police post placed there just to counter such incidents.

If you really want to make comparisons then look at southern Spain, it has tourist/hooligans from all over Europe involved in drunkeness, fighting and drug related incident in far greater numbers than occurs in Thailand, but the police there control it effectively and thoroughly, to maintain a safe enviroment for the residents and majority of law abiding tourists and uphold the reputation of Spain as a worthwhile destination.

Now look at Thailand as a tourist destination in that light, if you want to make comparisons that is 'Bud'.

[jumnien]

Yes, let's hope that Spain remains in high repute as a destination for drunken, drugged, fighting hooligans; we don't need any more here in Thailand! If a few wash up on shore let's hope a few drunken Thai cops give them a heroes welcome!

[jimlad]

The difference of course is that these Thais knew each other whereas you don't know the guys in the pub or the neo nazis. Different scenario.

How is it a different scenario? Where is the evidence that all the Thai guys who turned on the Estonians knew each other??

In any case, If my mates were kicking the sh*t out of two foreign guys in the street, it's OK for me to join in because I KNOW them???

Your logic is totally flawed!

[Robski]

Yes, let's hope that Spain remains in high repute as a destination for drunken, drugged, fighting hooligans; we don't need any more here in Thailand! If a few wash up on shore let's hope a few drunken Thai cops give them a heroes welcome!

Sarcasm is still the lowest form of wit, as if humour was needed on this subject.

[ariaby]

Don't discuss about it anymore you know the result of fight with locals anywhere in the world Thailand, UK or hel_l

[burman]

The difference of course is that these Thais knew each other whereas you don't know the guys in the pub or the neo nazis. Different scenario.

How is it a different scenario? Where is the evidence that all the Thai guys who turned on the Estonians knew each other??

In any case, If my mates were kicking the sh*t out of two foreign guys in the street, it's OK for me to join in because I KNOW them???

Your logic is totally flawed!

How is my logic flawed? I didn't say that it is OK to gang up on someone and attack them as long as you know the person. Where did you read that?

But I was pointing out that perhaps the Thais didn't all randomly jump in just because they saw a farang getting a beating. I don't think there is much of a race issue here at all to be honest. If a few Thai guys from out of town had the same trouble with the same group of Thais then it would have been a very similar scenario.

From the look of the initial report I would certainly assume all the Thai guys involved knew each other. Not sure they were all strangers who happened to be in the same place at the same time looking to bash a farang.

Edited January 22, 2008 by burman

[burman]

Don't discuss about it anymore you know the result of fight with locals anywhere in the world Thailand, UK or hel_l

Best advice you can get, don't fight with the locals. Especially not in the red light districts of the world.

[ariaby]

I usually go to pattaya 2 or 3 times in year staying 1 month, never had problem cause i don't feel strong and i respect these people.also i follow a simple rule don't fuc_k with thai guys. Every stupid knows this. if you have problem let the thai girl do the talking.

I have friends in police station be sure they won't risk they life for your stupid fights with 300$ salary per month

[toret]

so lets not put down Thai people or Thai society because 3 men who were looking for a fight with some Thai men, found a fight with Thai men.

Hear, hear!

By the way, this is nothing new. Drunk sailors have been beat up by local pimps across the world since the invention of the sail. This tradition will not change just because the drunks arrive by jet plane.