"face"

[gburns57au]

Surely that depends upon the relevant law? In the UK it is the responsibility of a retailer to replace faulty goods as it's they who you have a contract with. They took your money and gave you goods in exchange. The manufacturer has nothing to do with the transaction.

We are not talking about the UK.....

The retailer is merely an agent of sale....he did not make the product therefore he has no responsibilty for correct working of the product.

If you buy a Kettle from Target or where ever....if it fails to work you can return it to the point of sale for a replacement IF that store has a replacement policy....if not, you have to return it to the manufacturer....If the store doesnt have a replacement policy and they do replace it...they do so out of goodwill.

[madjbs]

Face is in every race and culture, no-one like to admit there wrong. Especially politicians.

I think people totally look to far in it, Thai's do seem to have abit more face then australians. But people exagerate abit

Exactly, people read about "face" on their Thai guidebook and then get obsessed by it. The only difference is that in the west there isn't a name for it.

Edited January 28, 2008 by madjbs

[gburns57au]

Lets look at some of the examples given...

The OP let his wife do the talking then came into the dicussion after he felt that it was not going to achieve what he wanted....even though the salesman spoke good english.

His wife has lost face for starters...probably why she was fidgety. The salesman feels personally attacked so he starts to lose face...

The OP should have conducted the complaint his self from the beginning. The aggressive choice of words given by the OP should never have been used...."If theres nothing wrong with it, then you wouldnt object to putting it back on the shelf" No matter what the tone of voice this is said in, it is a challenging statement.

The factory owner.....

No matter what country you are in....you dont call your boss in front of the staff....even if he employed you to resolve things.....The move there would have been to have gone to his office after the meeting and point it out to him one on one....That gives him the chance to make corrections. That is just basic office politics and not related to just Thailand.

The Bar Owner....

How do you know the influential Thai lost face....through a third party??...Chances are that he would have just said..."oh well, Up to him" He may have kept in mind that his offer to help had been refused. You lost face by going cap in hand....

[cali4995]

I have to confess, sometimes I see Thais, young people working at the

convenience mart or even little kids, that just have impossibly good

manners, poise, self-control etc. It actually makes me embarrassed.

But 9 times out of 10 the "face" thing doesn't apply to you because you're

not Thai. They could care less about your "face". So be polite as the OP

was but firmly insist they do the right thing, otherwise it won't happen.

[micksterbs]

Lets look at some of the examples given...

The OP let his wife do the talking then came into the dicussion after he felt that it was not going to achieve what he wanted....even though the salesman spoke good english.

His wife has lost face for starters...probably why she was fidgety. The salesman feels personally attacked so he starts to lose face...

The OP should have conducted the complaint his self from the beginning. The aggressive choice of words given by the OP should never have been used...."If theres nothing wrong with it, then you wouldnt object to putting it back on the shelf" No matter what the tone of voice this is said in, it is a challenging statement.

Yep, ok. I had only been in Thailand a few weeks and was still very much feeling my way. I think most of us would let our wives handle things unless we already had a reasonable command of Thai which I certainly didn't then. I assumed that things would go a lot more smoothly "Thai-to-Thai". I entered the discussion when it became clear that the chap was being less than helpful. You're quite right when you mention some stores do not have a returns policy and if he had said this, then there would have been no problem. But when someone keeps telling you that something is fine when you know it isn't and keeps trying to hand it back to you, I think that most of us would feel that he was taking the p**s and just doesn't want to know. If anything, he had already lost face before I had even opened my mouth by his totally unhelpful attitude. I certainly wasn't aggressive with him; just firm.

Having said all that, I don't know if I would handle it the same way now or not. I suppose the received wisdom is to go about it round the houses. My feeling though is that we're not Thai, no matter how long we live here, no matter how much we attempt to adapt. When someone is attempting to shaft you, I, for one, will probably always revert to type, to being "Western" i.e, calling a spade a spade. No, I'm not inflexible but I don't relish being bullshitted, here or anywhere in the world.

So yes, I agree with your last sentence; it was a challenging statement. I was challenging him to stop prevaricating and actually come-up with something constructive instead of just not wanting to offer us any help or explanation. BTW, this does seem to be the norm in this particular place which is KKs version of Pantip Plaza. A colleague of my wife's bought a new laptop in a different shop but in the same complex. Soon after she bought it, she experienced problems and took it back just to ask them to fire it up and have a look. Apparently they were really unhelpful and basically fobbed her off.

[prodriver]

Lets look at some of the examples given... The OP let his wife do the talking then came into the dicussion after he felt that it was not going to achieve what he wanted....even though the salesman spoke good english. His wife has lost face for starters...probably why she was fidgety. The salesman feels personally attacked so he starts to lose face... The OP should have conducted the complaint his self from the beginning. The aggressive choice of words given by the OP should never have been used...."If theres nothing wrong with it, then you wouldnt object to putting it back on the shelf" No matter what the tone of voice this is said in, it is a challenging statement. The factory owner..... No matter what country you are in....you dont call your boss in front of the staff....even if he employed you to resolve things.....The move there would have been to have gone to his office after the meeting and point it out to him one on one....That gives him the chance to make corrections. That is just basic office politics and not related to just Thailand. The Bar Owner.... How do you know the influential Thai lost face....through a third party??...Chances are that he would have just said..."oh well, Up to him" He may have kept in mind that his offer to help had been refused. You lost face by going cap in hand....

"You lost face by going cap in hand...." And there's the difference, I didn't mind losing face coming from the West. Incidentally, the drunken farang in question came to me several years later and appologised for the trouble he had caused. I accepted his appology but I did say though that I would like an appology from his wife too. His reply was that you will never get it....SHE's THAI!!!

[prodriver]

Lets look at some of the examples given... The OP let his wife do the talking then came into the dicussion after he felt that it was not going to achieve what he wanted....even though the salesman spoke good english. His wife has lost face for starters...probably why she was fidgety. The salesman feels personally attacked so he starts to lose face... The OP should have conducted the complaint his self from the beginning. The aggressive choice of words given by the OP should never have been used...."If theres nothing wrong with it, then you wouldnt object to putting it back on the shelf" No matter what the tone of voice this is said in, it is a challenging statement. The factory owner..... No matter what country you are in....you dont call your boss in front of the staff....even if he employed you to resolve things.....The move there would have been to have gone to his office after the meeting and point it out to him one on one....That gives him the chance to make corrections. That is just basic office politics and not related to just Thailand. The Bar Owner.... How do you know the influential Thai lost face....through a third party??...Chances are that he would have just said..."oh well, Up to him" He may have kept in mind that his offer to help had been refused. You lost face by going cap in hand....

"You lost face by going cap in hand...." And there's the difference, I didn't mind losing face coming from the West. Incidentally, the drunken farang in question came to me several years later and appologised for the trouble he had caused. I accepted his appology but I did say though that I would like an appology from his wife too. His reply was that you will never get it....SHE's THAI!!!

Apologies for spelling apology incorrectly in my previous post.....have I lost face?

[gburns57au]

Yep.............

[Thai at Heart]

Just try attending a parent teacher meeting and ask teachers straight forward questions in front of other parents!!!!

The absolutely detest having their position questioned.

Quite. But then we are from the West where we, hopefully, are liberal enough to have put the whole concept of another's superiority or inferiority behind us. However, that concept is still very much alive and kicking here. God knows what they think of us...

I asked simple questions in Thai about curriculum in front of other parents; since as a parent, I should have the well being of my kids at heart. I was a little shocked at how when asking a simple question they squirmed. All the other Thai parents were very supportive that I asked logical questions about bilingual teaching.

Now some parents come to me and ask if I would ask various other things. When I ask why they cannot, obviously they find a reason not to ask because to challenge a school owners infinite wisdom would be to make the owner/senior teachers lose face. All very bizarre, and has led me to change the school since if the teachers are not absolutely sure of the path they are taking, I would rather entrust my kids education to people who KNOW what they are doing!

[xyborg]

<br />grr that word face...I hate it...<br /><br />I work with a thai guy and man is he annoying, his version of face ..i will never admit im wrong(when he is, i will never say sorry(when he should do), i will never ask for help(when he dosnt know what he is doing)..<br /><br />It's just a passport to lie, cheat and decieve because knowbody should question that person regardless of what he has done...<br />So we all have to live with the fact that these Thai's can baltently look us in the eye and bullsh1t till there hearts content and we westerners have to take it just so we dont upset them...<br /><br />Grrrrrrrrrr<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Here here the only true answer, most of them use it as a get out. It may once have meant something now it means bugger all just like their modern version of Buddhism all running round wanting good luck strapping amulets to themselve s whilst beating their wives shaggging as many other women as they can and getting drunk then ask why we are being so unreasonable!!

[gburns57au]

Just try attending a parent teacher meeting and ask teachers straight forward questions in front of other parents!!!!

The absolutely detest having their position questioned.

Quite. But then we are from the West where we, hopefully, are liberal enough to have put the whole concept of another's superiority or inferiority behind us. However, that concept is still very much alive and kicking here. God knows what they think of us...

I asked simple questions in Thai about curriculum in front of other parents; since as a parent, I should have the well being of my kids at heart. I was a little shocked at how when asking a simple question they squirmed. All the other Thai parents were very supportive that I asked logical questions about bilingual teaching.

Now some parents come to me and ask if I would ask various other things. When I ask why they cannot, obviously they find a reason not to ask because to challenge a school owners infinite wisdom would be to make the owner/senior teachers lose face. All very bizarre, and has led me to change the school since if the teachers are not absolutely sure of the path they are taking, I would rather entrust my kids education to people who KNOW what they are doing!

Now you have to understand Thai heirarchy......teachers rank just below the Royal Family and Monks...

Once again a one on one with the teacher would achieve more than seeming to be critical in front of others.....

First rule of Face.....dont embarrass someone in front of others.....especially someone who is generally held in high regard.

Take your western ways and throw them out of the window.....start looking at things from their point of view.....not yours....after all you are merely a guest in their country.

Edited January 29, 2008 by gburns57au

[xyborg]

<br />

Just try attending a parent teacher meeting and ask teachers straight forward questions in front of other parents!!!!<br /><br />The absolutely detest having their position questioned.

<br /><br />Quite. But then we are from the West where we, hopefully, are liberal enough to have put the whole concept of another's superiority or inferiority behind us. However, that concept is still very much alive and kicking here. God knows what they think of us...<br />

<br /><br />I asked simple questions in Thai about curriculum in front of other parents; since as a parent, I should have the well being of my kids at heart. I was a little shocked at how when asking a simple question they squirmed. All the other Thai parents were very supportive that I asked logical questions about bilingual teaching.<br /><br />Now some parents come to me and ask if I would ask various other things. When I ask why they cannot, obviously they find a reason not to ask because to challenge a school owners infinite wisdom would be to make the owner/senior teachers lose face. All very bizarre, and has led me to change the school since if the teachers are not absolutely sure of the path they are taking, I would rather entrust my kids education to people who KNOW what they are doing!<br />

<br /><br /><br />Now you have to understand Thai heirarchy......teachers rank just below the Royal Family and Monks...<br /><br />Once again a one on one with the teacher would achieve more than seeming to be critical in front of others.....<br /><br />First rule of Face.....dont embarrass someone in front of others.....especially someone who is generally held in high regard.<br /><br />Take your western ways and throw them out of the window.....start looking at things from their point of view.....not yours....after all you are merely a guest in their country.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Yep and we all know how good they are, the fag smoking womanising monks, they do what suits them like many other folk. Looks like my kids are gonna give teeeecher a very hard time when they get to school.

[xyborg]

<br />

Just try attending a parent teacher meeting and ask teachers straight forward questions in front of other parents!!!!<br /><br />The absolutely detest having their position questioned.

<br /><br />Quite. But then we are from the West where we, hopefully, are liberal enough to have put the whole concept of another's superiority or inferiority behind us. However, that concept is still very much alive and kicking here. God knows what they think of us...<br />

<br /><br />I asked simple questions in Thai about curriculum in front of other parents; since as a parent, I should have the well being of my kids at heart. I was a little shocked at how when asking a simple question they squirmed. All the other Thai parents were very supportive that I asked logical questions about bilingual teaching.<br /><br />Now some parents come to me and ask if I would ask various other things. When I ask why they cannot, obviously they find a reason not to ask because to challenge a school owners infinite wisdom would be to make the owner/senior teachers lose face. All very bizarre, and has led me to change the school since if the teachers are not absolutely sure of the path they are taking, I would rather entrust my kids education to people who KNOW what they are doing!<br />

<br /><br /><br />

My wife (Thai) gets the same thing asked of her at NITI meetings because they know she aint afarad to ask them why they aren't doing their job correctly and keep making weak excuses. Mustn't break the Thai codes eh.

[Thai at Heart]

Just try attending a parent teacher meeting and ask teachers straight forward questions in front of other parents!!!!

The absolutely detest having their position questioned.

Quite. But then we are from the West where we, hopefully, are liberal enough to have put the whole concept of another's superiority or inferiority behind us. However, that concept is still very much alive and kicking here. God knows what they think of us...

I asked simple questions in Thai about curriculum in front of other parents; since as a parent, I should have the well being of my kids at heart. I was a little shocked at how when asking a simple question they squirmed. All the other Thai parents were very supportive that I asked logical questions about bilingual teaching.

Now some parents come to me and ask if I would ask various other things. When I ask why they cannot, obviously they find a reason not to ask because to challenge a school owners infinite wisdom would be to make the owner/senior teachers lose face. All very bizarre, and has led me to change the school since if the teachers are not absolutely sure of the path they are taking, I would rather entrust my kids education to people who KNOW what they are doing!

Now you have to understand Thai heirarchy......teachers rank just below the Royal Family and Monks...

Once again a one on one with the teacher would achieve more than seeming to be critical in front of others.....

First rule of Face.....dont embarrass someone in front of others.....especially someone who is generally held in high regard.

Take your western ways and throw them out of the window.....start looking at things from their point of view.....not yours....after all you are merely a guest in their country.

Ah the if you don't like it go home brigade! Well thankyou very much for reminding me not to offend someone, I will remember that next week when I make my speech at the Chamber of Commerce! When Thailand is top of the education system in the world I will put my faith blindly in the expertise of the well trained, contientious teachers that we see every day in this country perched in the bar.

I have been here 14 years and am a permenant resident, fluent spoken and very well aware of how to address a teacher, MP, politican, mother in law, pooyai ban and any other so called person of position.

I simply asked a very logical question, that if you are going to teach my quadraligual children in mathematics, why would you teach them in English on a Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in English and recap in Thai on a Thursday and Friday????

To which every other parent both Thai and Farang complemented me on asking a very logical question. Squirm, squirm, because we have to share the farang maths teacher! Well thank you very much, a very honest answer and enough to convince me to find another school.

When it comes to education of my children I feel absolutely free to ask whatever I like, since there isn't a rewind button.

[elkangorito]

My comments in blue.

I'm the first one to respect tradition or cultures, but what is it with this "saving face" issue? Why is it even an issue? If people didn't behave or act in a way that required a follow-up of having to "save face" then they would never be in a possition of "losing" face.

You're in control of your own destiny and day-to-day have to take all the responsibilty for your own actions in this world. If you don't, who else is gonna? If you are in danger of loosing face, it's because you put yourself there and you can only blame and get mad at yourself.

I do believe that this is "true" Buddhism & not the modified "Thai" Buddhism.

As for the concept "you do what I want you to do... and you must do it, because if you don't then I'll loose face". I don't know what to say, I'm speechless.

I think the whole world could use some psycotherapy! (but I'm first in the cue )

As I have said before, this amazing "face" tool is nothing but a way for people to escape personal responsibility...for the powerful to remain powerful. It's a bit like "rules" in the western world...follow them & you don't have to "think".

Try replacing losing face with losing money and you are halfway there to understanding the question

Exactly! When "money" exceeds the perceived value of "face", money takes precedence. This is quite hypocritical.

Actually, I think Buddhism has a lot to do with what you are calling face. I was working for a Thai company and that factory was run by the son of the man who started the company. I was hired to get the company back on the right track and to teach them how to manufacture a new but similar product. The boss (son) was obviously incompetent. During a brainstorming meeting with the boss and the engineers, the boss made a horrible decision. When I called him on his mistake the room became VERY quiet and the meeting soon broke up. The senior engineer then took me to lunch. He explained to me that although the boss was wrong, I MUST show respect to him and not question his decisions. I patiently explained to the engineer that I was hired to solve mistakes that were being made and keeping quiet was not going to solve anything. I was a little angry at that point and said that if the boss had been born poor he would surely have starved to death by now.

Our lunch ended with the engineer telling me that the boss was a VERY good man in a previous life and that he deserved his current position in life and we MUST respect it. That was my first lesson in keeping my mouth shut and approaching mistakes in a much less aggressive around the block manner. I never did get used to it but did manage to work my way around poor decisions.

Thais, like most other people in the world, are subject to "variations" of a religion. One question could be, "How many variations is there of true Buddhism?" A further question could be, "How many variations of religions are indoctrinated upon any given society?" And yet another question could be, "How many people truly accept being indoctrinated by religious ideals?"

Just try attending a parent teacher meeting and ask teachers straight forward questions in front of other parents!!!!

The absolutely detest having their position questioned.

Quite. But then we are from the West where we, hopefully, are liberal enough to have put the whole concept of another's superiority or inferiority behind us. However, that concept is still very much alive and kicking here. God knows what they think of us...

I asked simple questions in Thai about curriculum in front of other parents; since as a parent, I should have the well being of my kids at heart. I was a little shocked at how when asking a simple question they squirmed. All the other Thai parents were very supportive that I asked logical questions about bilingual teaching.

Now some parents come to me and ask if I would ask various other things. When I ask why they cannot, obviously they find a reason not to ask because to challenge a school owners infinite wisdom would be to make the owner/senior teachers lose face. All very bizarre, and has led me to change the school since if the teachers are not absolutely sure of the path they are taking, I would rather entrust my kids education to people who KNOW what they are doing!

Now you have to understand Thai heirarchy......teachers rank just below the Royal Family and Monks...

Once again a one on one with the teacher would achieve more than seeming to be critical in front of others.....

First rule of Face.....dont embarrass someone in front of others.....especially someone who is generally held in high regard.

Take your western ways and throw them out of the window.....start looking at things from their point of view.....not yours....after all you are merely a guest in their country.

Ah the if you don't like it go home brigade! Well thankyou very much for reminding me not to offend someone, I will remember that next week when I make my speech at the Chamber of Commerce! When Thailand is top of the education system in the world I will put my faith blindly in the expertise of the well trained, contientious teachers that we see every day in this country perched in the bar.

I have been here 14 years and am a permenant resident, fluent spoken and very well aware of how to address a teacher, MP, politican, mother in law, pooyai ban and any other so called person of position.

I simply asked a very logical question, that if you are going to teach my quadraligual children in mathematics, why would you teach them in English on a Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in English and recap in Thai on a Thursday and Friday????

To which every other parent both Thai and Farang complemented me on asking a very logical question. Squirm, squirm, because we have to share the farang maths teacher! Well thank you very much, a very honest answer and enough to convince me to find another school.

When it comes to education of my children I feel absolutely free to ask whatever I like, since there isn't a rewind button.

I am a teacher & quite often ask questions to Thai teachers that border on confronting "face". I have no qualms about this.

In the past, I have responded to such situations with comments like, "Why would anyone want to decide to be unhappy when in Thailand, "happiness" is so important? Also, "Why would anybody want me to be unhappy so that they could be happy, if Thai "happiness" was so important?" I am, of course, met with looks of dumbfoundedness...but no ensuing opposition or disregard.

This "face" thing may have served a purpose a thousand years ago but the world has changed a lot & will continue to change. If one wishes to "freeze" things in time, then I would suggest that one would feel immense pain.

In my opinion, "face" is a huge downfall for any society. It no longer has a place or purpose. Therefore, the lesson of the "changing world" will be harsh but nonetheless unstoppable upon the world that does not wish to change. Of course, politicians & those who wish to clutch power &/or wealth, will be subject to & will try to subject others to, FACE!!

As I have always done, I will continue to reject this egotistical "face saving" ideal. It causes more trouble than it solves. The sooner the "word is spread", the sooner this problem may be solved.

[Thai at Heart]

My comments in blue.

I'm the first one to respect tradition or cultures, but what is it with this "saving face" issue? Why is it even an issue? If people didn't behave or act in a way that required a follow-up of having to "save face" then they would never be in a possition of "losing" face.

You're in control of your own destiny and day-to-day have to take all the responsibilty for your own actions in this world. If you don't, who else is gonna? If you are in danger of loosing face, it's because you put yourself there and you can only blame and get mad at yourself.

I do believe that this is "true" Buddhism & not the modified "Thai" Buddhism.

As for the concept "you do what I want you to do... and you must do it, because if you don't then I'll loose face". I don't know what to say, I'm speechless.

I think the whole world could use some psycotherapy! (but I'm first in the cue )

As I have said before, this amazing "face" tool is nothing but a way for people to escape personal responsibility...for the powerful to remain powerful. It's a bit like "rules" in the western world...follow them & you don't have to "think".

Try replacing losing face with losing money and you are halfway there to understanding the question

Exactly! When "money" exceeds the perceived value of "face", money takes precedence. This is quite hypocritical.

Actually, I think Buddhism has a lot to do with what you are calling face. I was working for a Thai company and that factory was run by the son of the man who started the company. I was hired to get the company back on the right track and to teach them how to manufacture a new but similar product. The boss (son) was obviously incompetent. During a brainstorming meeting with the boss and the engineers, the boss made a horrible decision. When I called him on his mistake the room became VERY quiet and the meeting soon broke up. The senior engineer then took me to lunch. He explained to me that although the boss was wrong, I MUST show respect to him and not question his decisions. I patiently explained to the engineer that I was hired to solve mistakes that were being made and keeping quiet was not going to solve anything. I was a little angry at that point and said that if the boss had been born poor he would surely have starved to death by now.

Our lunch ended with the engineer telling me that the boss was a VERY good man in a previous life and that he deserved his current position in life and we MUST respect it. That was my first lesson in keeping my mouth shut and approaching mistakes in a much less aggressive around the block manner. I never did get used to it but did manage to work my way around poor decisions.

Thais, like most other people in the world, are subject to "variations" of a religion. One question could be, "How many variations is there of true Buddhism?" A further question could be, "How many variations of religions are indoctrinated upon any given society?" And yet another question could be, "How many people truly accept being indoctrinated by religious ideals?"

Just try attending a parent teacher meeting and ask teachers straight forward questions in front of other parents!!!!

The absolutely detest having their position questioned.

Quite. But then we are from the West where we, hopefully, are liberal enough to have put the whole concept of another's superiority or inferiority behind us. However, that concept is still very much alive and kicking here. God knows what they think of us...

I asked simple questions in Thai about curriculum in front of other parents; since as a parent, I should have the well being of my kids at heart. I was a little shocked at how when asking a simple question they squirmed. All the other Thai parents were very supportive that I asked logical questions about bilingual teaching.

Now some parents come to me and ask if I would ask various other things. When I ask why they cannot, obviously they find a reason not to ask because to challenge a school owners infinite wisdom would be to make the owner/senior teachers lose face. All very bizarre, and has led me to change the school since if the teachers are not absolutely sure of the path they are taking, I would rather entrust my kids education to people who KNOW what they are doing!

Now you have to understand Thai heirarchy......teachers rank just below the Royal Family and Monks...

Once again a one on one with the teacher would achieve more than seeming to be critical in front of others.....

First rule of Face.....dont embarrass someone in front of others.....especially someone who is generally held in high regard.

Take your western ways and throw them out of the window.....start looking at things from their point of view.....not yours....after all you are merely a guest in their country.

Ah the if you don't like it go home brigade! Well thankyou very much for reminding me not to offend someone, I will remember that next week when I make my speech at the Chamber of Commerce! When Thailand is top of the education system in the world I will put my faith blindly in the expertise of the well trained, contientious teachers that we see every day in this country perched in the bar.

I have been here 14 years and am a permenant resident, fluent spoken and very well aware of how to address a teacher, MP, politican, mother in law, pooyai ban and any other so called person of position.

I simply asked a very logical question, that if you are going to teach my quadraligual children in mathematics, why would you teach them in English on a Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in English and recap in Thai on a Thursday and Friday????

To which every other parent both Thai and Farang complemented me on asking a very logical question. Squirm, squirm, because we have to share the farang maths teacher! Well thank you very much, a very honest answer and enough to convince me to find another school.

When it comes to education of my children I feel absolutely free to ask whatever I like, since there isn't a rewind button.

I am a teacher & quite often ask questions to Thai teachers that border on confronting "face". I have no qualms about this.

In the past, I have responded to such situations with comments like, "Why would anyone want to decide to be unhappy when in Thailand, "happiness" is so important? Also, "Why would anybody want me to be unhappy so that they could be happy, if Thai "happiness" was so important?" I am, of course, met with looks of dumbfoundedness...but no ensuing opposition or disregard.

This "face" thing may have served a purpose a thousand years ago but the world has changed a lot & will continue to change. If one wishes to "freeze" things in time, then I would suggest that one would feel immense pain.

In my opinion, "face" is a huge downfall for any society. It no longer has a place or purpose. Therefore, the lesson of the "changing world" will be harsh but nonetheless unstoppable upon the world that does not wish to change. Of course, politicians & those who wish to clutch power &/or wealth, will be subject to & will try to subject others to, FACE!!

As I have always done, I will continue to reject this egotistical "face saving" ideal. It causes more trouble than it solves. The sooner the "word is spread", the sooner this problem may be solved.

As I have said, "Face" has moments when it MUST be challenged not because I want, we want, you want or they want, but simply because the answer is so obvious that it is on the end of your nose.

I am not talking about shop assistants, who if you know enough of the culture you can handle. Face is the single most obvious impediment to social, economic, politlcal, emotional, psychological, developmental (i have no more adjectives left) change in this country.

I love this country very much, and I want it everyone in it to feel happier, fatter, thinner, wiser, stupider, freer, richer and poorer. There are so many wonderful aspects in this culture that are dying elsewhere in the world. But the world and Thailand is changing. If that is spiritual or monetary I don't really mind, but something has to give to challenge the status quo and allow a challenge to omniscience of the respected classes.

[gburns57au]

Ah the if you don't like it go home brigade! Well thankyou very much for reminding me not to offend someone, I will remember that next week when I make my speech at the Chamber of Commerce! When Thailand is top of the education system in the world I will put my faith blindly in the expertise of the well trained, contientious teachers that we see every day in this country perched in the bar.

I have been here 14 years and am a permenant resident, fluent spoken and very well aware of how to address a teacher, MP, politican, mother in law, pooyai ban and any other so called person of position.

I simply asked a very logical question, that if you are going to teach my quadraligual children in mathematics, why would you teach them in English on a Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in English and recap in Thai on a Thursday and Friday????

To which every other parent both Thai and Farang complemented me on asking a very logical question. Squirm, squirm, because we have to share the farang maths teacher! Well thank you very much, a very honest answer and enough to convince me to find another school.

When it comes to education of my children I feel absolutely free to ask whatever I like, since there isn't a rewind button.

Dont put words into my mouth please....I never said or intimated any such thing....in fact the opposite. My comment was to put it in more simple terms.....If you want to live in Thailand then you have to adapt to many of their things and not try to impose your ways and ideals on them.

I would hope that someone who has been there for such a period and is fluent in Thai and therefore would be well learnt in Thai Culture, would understand "face" concept very well. Even in our western society, if you challenge someone in an open forum such as a P&T night, then the person will become defensive....people in positions of respect or regard dont like to be challenged. This was exhibited in the Factory Owner example. And as is human nature....once you criticize that person then the others will back that person up....Yes, the other parents said to you that you asked a logical question....What did they say to other person?? I can guess that it would not have been the same as they said to you.

You have the right to choose where your children are educated....nobody denies that...are you going to change your childs school everytime that you dont like the responses at a P&T night....take them away from their schoolmates....Take them away from where they feel settled....just cause you didnt like the response....

I squirm at the thought of putting my stepson through an Intensive English Language school when he arrives here....6-12 months then I have to uproot him from there to put him in mainstream school. Because the IEL school is some distance away he will probably lose touch with friends he makes there...so in the space of a year...he will move to a new country...make new friends then move schools again, where he will have to make new friends, It is a position that I find myself in because I want the best for him...and he needs to be intensively taught English to give him the best chance at a good education here in Oz. But I can remember how it felt everytime I had to change schools when I was young, from 5yo to the end of my school life I never spent more than 2 years in the same school or the same area.

To change your childrens school for the reasons you give....well I just dont know...I cant see where you are coming from....I just dont see the need to cause a disruption to your childrens lives because you didnt like the response from someone who works in a school that you were obviously happy enough to have your children attend....Whereas if you had of approached this person one on one and put your point across...a situation where there would likely be more constructive conversation, you may not have needed to cause this disruption to your childrens lives.

Oh BTW....."thank you for reminding me not to offend someone"....does that then follow that you actually go out of your way to offend?? Ahh!!... isnt putting words in other peoples mouths fun??

And I think you also meant Quadrilingual.....didnt you?....