New Non-imm 'o' Extension Requirements?

[JOCK67]

40 yrs old, British, Non-Immigrant 'O' (based on Marriage to Thai).

I am just coming up to my 3rd Extension of Non-Imm 'O' Visa based on supporting my Thai Spouse.

We have a company from which my wife and I both take a monthly income. We both pay income tax filing monthly Por Ngor Dor 1 and yearly Por Ngor Dor 91 Tax Returns with the Revenue Department.

I was informed by a service company (undertaking visa & work permit renewals) that there are new rules in effect since August 2007 and that a new requirement is to provide copy of Tax Documents and that they must now be certified by the Revenue Department. This apparently due to the possibility that some applicants for Visa Extensions may have submitted Tax Documents with incorrect (falsified) figures. Previously I did my own Extension and simply supplied copies of P.N.D. 1 & P.N.D.91 and copies of receipts for Income Tax Payments, now it seems I will have to pay to have copies certified at the Revenue Dept.

I checked with Immigration at Soi Suan Phlu regarding additional requirements for Extension of Non-Imm 'O' Visa and the only change they informed me about was for the provision of a Map for our residence and some Photos inside and outside our residence.

Has anyone had recent experience that can confirm this information as a requirement?

Thanks in advance.

[KamnanT]

Yes, it's true that as a result of some applicants presenting falsified copies of documents in support of immigration applications, the Immigration Bureau since (I believe) September 2007 has required that certain documents be certified by competent authorities rather than simply certified as a true copy by the applicant.

Tax withholding documents (PND 1), personal income tax returns (PND 91) and corporate income tax returns must all be certified by the Revenue Department. Social Security contribution receipts must be certified by the Social Security Office. Audited annual accounts for a corporation must be certified by the original auditor. Incorporation registration documents and shareholder lists must be certified by the Ministry of Commerce.

As you're extending a Non-Immigrant "O" based on marriage to a Thai national, you only have to worry about providing evidence of your personal income (PND 1 and PND 91). A business applying for an extension of stay for an employee on a Non-Immigrant "B" would have to provide all of the above and more. This means a fair amount of running around Bangkok going from one Ministry to another. I can't even imagine what's involved for an upcountry business.

Interestingly, the Immigration Bureau did not consult with any of the other ministries before announcing these changes last year. Overnight, quiet little offices (like the SSO) that received 5 requests a day for document certification were swamped with hordes of motorcycle messengers queueing up into the street waiting to get copies of documents certified. None were prepared for the 20-fold increase in the number of requests for certification.

Rumour (and yes, I'm sorry, it's a rumour and I have no substantiation other than to say it came from an unnamed immigration officer at Suan Phlu) is that when the regulations are next changed, the certification requirements will be lifted as the Immigration Bureau is getting too many complaints from other government departments. After all, their staff were sleeping quite happily until this happened!

[JOCK67]

Thanks for info Kamnan.

I wonder whether this is something which is currently applied to everyone or if it is something which they ask for only where they suspect Tax Documents have been tampered with. I would have thought that having Original Receipts (printer generated not hand-written) from Revenue Dept which matched the figures in P. N.D. 1 submissions would have been sufficient without having to resort to getting certified copies from the Revenue Dept too.

[KamnanT]

My understanding (which may not be complete) is that if they need to retain a copy of the document, then the copy must be certified as a true copy by the issuing authority, even if you bring the original with you. IMHO, while preventing forgery is obviously the principal rationale behind this, another significant motivation is the "CYA" mentality of civil servants in Thailand and many other countries.

Public service jobs in Thailand are much sought after, not so much because they are well paid (most aren't), but more because they are secure "jobs for life" and in many cases include the opportunity for unofficial income.

The only way to lose a civil service job is to attract scandal or controversy to oneself or one's superiors. Making mistakes is OK, but making mistakes that embarass your boss is a big no-no. You can be sure that the officer who granted John Mark Karr his last visa extension is now selling noodles in the Klongtoey slum.

One way to avoid controversy is to simply do nothing - an effective technique that is clearly used by about 40% of the civil service in Thailand. However, if doing some work is unavoidable, the next best thing is to ensure that you can transfer responsibility for everything you do to someone else ("CYA").

This is where certifications come in. Getting someone else in authority to stamp a document saying "this is true" gives the civil servant a perfect "out" should it turn out not to be true. In these circumstances, the immigration officer isn't really concerned if it's true or not...someone else said it's true and they can be blamed if anything goes wrong.

An example. I had to submit a copy of my university degree with my PR application a couple of years back. Of course, uni degrees are some of the most frequently falsified documents in Thailand (ask any Member of Thai Parliament where he/she got his/hers). So the copy of my university degree had to be certified by a consular officer at my Embassy. I thought this would be problematic, as my degree was from a university in a different country than my passport. But I went over to the Embassy and they had no difficulty certifying a copy of a degree from a university they had never heard of. I asked "Aren't you uncomfortable certifying this degree as genuine even though you really have no way of knowing?". The consular officer replied, "No problem at all, because my certification doesn't mean I'm saying it's genuine, it means I'm saying it's an accurate copy of the original you've shown me."

So, the copy certified by the Embassy means no more than an uncertified photocopy. But it had a lovely consular seal on it and that meant the immigration officer had an "out" should it transpire in the future that it wasn't a genuine degree. Everyone's happy (except me - the Embassy charges THB 850 a page for certifications) and life can go on with no risk of controversy, or least controversy that can't be blamed on someone else.

[JOCK67]

..and me. I have to pay an extra 1,500 Fee to the Service Company just to get the Certifications from the Revenue Department or waste my time doing it myself.

I wonder if Immigration are requesting this for every Extension Application or if it is random or just up to the mood of the Officer on the day?

[jonniebkk]

Kamnan...you seem to have the civil service mentality down pat. Did you use to be be one in a former life

One other reason for the popularity of civil service jobs is the health/retirement benefits and also they are prestigious. Anyone working in the Thai civil service considers that they are doing the King's business, as he is head of State, so historically and currently, these jobs have been a source of great prestige for this reason as well.

[ytivarg]

I might be wrong about this, but it was my understanding that the certified copies were only for the extension of non-B visas and not required for supporting documents for the non-O extension.

[Cyberstar]

I was informed by a service company (undertaking visa & work permit renewals) that there are new rules in effect since August 2007 and that a new requirement is to provide copy of Tax Documents and that they must now be certified by the Revenue Department.

Didn't apply in Chiang Mai at my last non-o extension in October. Situation identical to OP's - wife's and my income both regular salaries from our own company. Immigration didn't even bother to ask for the original receipts.

[JOCK67]

Anyone else had first-hand experience of this. Would like to know if it's a case of best get it done anyway as 'better safe than sorry'.

[KamnanT]

I have no experience with Non "O" extension applications, but do know that certified documents have been required for all Non "B" extensions my employer has submitted since September 2007. I also have an acquaintance running his own business who also needed certified documents for his own Non "B" extension application last week.

And then there's the "photos of all Thai staff at their places of work" requirement....another interesting addition from last September. But that's another thread.

[JOCK67]

Went to Immigration at Suan Phlu today and asked whether it was a requirement to have PND 1 copies certified by Revenue Department. The woman said this was not required (though she did stop to think about it which concerned me a bit).

I also posted a query via 'Enquiries' on their website a couple of days ago, but no response so far.

Anyone else extended their Non-Imm 'O' in the last 3 or 4 months with info?

[kansai]

Went to Suan Pluu for 3rd consecutive one year non-O extension yesterday. I did not have my PND 1's or PND 91 certified by the revenue department. There were no problems, so this does not appear to be a new req't for non-O extensions.

On a related note, we first went to the Suvharnabumi Novotel immigration office to try and process this non-o extension. We live near the airport and thought we could bypass the mayhem at Suan Pluu. This was a mistake. While it appears that, technically, they can handle such an extension, they clearly have no experience in doing so. There was about an hour of trivial questions about our documents (which were complete), and it was clear that the officer had probably never seen any pnd 1 or pnd 91's before. I should add that the officers there were unfailingly polite during this visit; they were simply unfamiliar with this type of extension. Ultimately, they did seem to agree that our documents were in order, but they said that we would personally have to go to Suan Pluu to submit a formal request to have my previous file transferred to their office at the Novotel. Of course, this defeats the whole purpose of going to the Suvharnabhumi office in the first place.

[kriswillems]

I got my 1 year extension yesterday. No problems at all.

Only 1 tax-document was certified by the revenue department, the others not.

I asked if certification was necessary. I was told it's not necessary.

They said immigration would contact the revenue department if in doubt or if suspecting fraud.

So it's pretty easy for them to check and the chance to be caught if tampering with the papers if very high.

The consequences are probably very serious too.