Pursued For Cash By Greedy Family

[soundman]

hahahaha I know...... call me what you want "steve whatever". Rule number one NEVER BUY A HOUSE IN SOMBODY'S NAME IN THAILAND. I am entitled to an opinion or not? you don't like it? tough! You trust Thais, I don't. Does this make me racist??? Pretty dumb reply to my post from your part there "steve whatever". Ummmm you didn't buy a....... hahaha dont want to upset you you even more nor do I want to elicit more stupid and benile comments about my posts from you. Do us all a favor and grow up!

Steve is Thai....

[Boo]

Indeed, suggest that a re-read of the forum rules & specifically;

2) Excessive, aggressive posts against other members, moderators and admin; or flaming will not be tolerated. 'Flaming' is best defined as posting or responding to a message in a way clearly intended to incite useless arguments, rants, and/or for launching personal attacks, insulting, being hateful, useless criticism, name calling, swearing and other bad behavior or comments meant to incite anger.

3) Religious or racial slurs, or extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated.

[samran]

hahahaha I know...... call me what you want "steve whatever". Rule number one NEVER BUY A HOUSE IN SOMBODY'S NAME IN THAILAND. I am entitled to an opinion or not? you don't like it? tough! You trust Thais, I don't. Does this make me racist??? Pretty dumb reply to my post from your part there "steve whatever". Ummmm you didn't buy a....... hahaha dont want to upset you you even more nor do I want to elicit more stupid and benile comments about my posts from you. Do us all a favor and grow up!

unfortunately it is hard to ban silly comments.

oh yeah, I'm Thai as well.

[kiakaha]

who needs Jerry Springer...this stuff is great !!

[Ski_Goong]

hahahaha I know...... call me what you want "steve whatever". Rule number one NEVER BUY A HOUSE IN SOMBODY'S NAME IN THAILAND. I am entitled to an opinion or not? you don't like it? tough! You trust Thais, I don't. Does this make me racist??? Pretty dumb reply to my post from your part there "steve whatever". Ummmm you didn't buy a....... hahaha dont want to upset you you even more nor do I want to elicit more stupid and benile comments about my posts from you. Do us all a favor and grow up!

unfortunately it is hard to ban silly comments.

oh yeah, I'm Thai as well.

I'm Thai also. I suggest you "enlarge" your circle of Thai friends so you can see that not all Thais are bad. Just like not all "Farangs" are bad.

Ski....

[JacknDanny]

hahahaha I know...... call me what you want "steve whatever". Rule number one NEVER BUY A HOUSE IN SOMBODY'S NAME IN THAILAND. I am entitled to an opinion or not? you don't like it? tough! You trust Thais, I don't. Does this make me racist??? Pretty dumb reply to my post from your part there "steve whatever". Ummmm you didn't buy a....... hahaha dont want to upset you you even more nor do I want to elicit more stupid and benile comments about my posts from you. Do us all a favor and grow up!

Ithink you will find that Steve IS Thai. If you took the time to have a look at whom you are castegating, you will see that he is an extremely well balanced and knowledgable contributor to this forum.

You are the one who should grow up

[Kf6vci]

Time is on your side. Sit tight for a year. I had a very nasty divorce and finally, it cost far less that way. In anticipation of riches, they will overspend, go into debt and get into more trouble. But I would make certainthey cannot mortgage the land...

The first axiom of pressure is to deny time to think (Le Carre). Do not allow them to succeed...

[Johpa]

It is sad to see that some poeple forget "rule number 1": NEVER BUY PROPERTY in somebody else's name in Thailand unless they are your own children then of course it's a different matter....

And rule number 2: NEVER TRUST A THAI (but we all knew that already )

Yeah ALL OF US are out to rip you dumb farang off

Cut out the dips^&t comments about trust and the racist insinuation ya clown What is this 'we'???

Anyhow, I would repeat to use a lawyer or senior person to remove any face to face dealings, not just for personal safety possibly, but also because i suspect many foreigners who don't speak Thai well have distinct problems of controlling their emotions when they perceive someone is 'extracting the urine'.

It ain't just Thais who take advantages of dumb Farangs.

But as Khun Steve partially noted, neither side is good at controlling emotions over these issues. The Thais always use a phuu yai, a "senior person" as an intermediary in disputes. The problem is that in the urban areas there are few traditional phuu yais, so both sides are left with having to use lawyers, a decidedly less effective mechanism as the lawyers are not familiar with the people and are only interested in an immediate payout. The traditional phuu yai would know the person, or at least the family coming to them for help, and would allow for the aggrieved to let off some steam and emotion. The phuu yai would then interact with the of the party on the other end of the dispute and they would work out a mutually acceptable settlement. You would then be almost bound to the settlement worked out by the phuu yais as you would not want your phuu yai to lose face.

If you don't have a phuu yai, or if your partner did not have a phuu yai, then lawyers it will be, a decidedly inferior and more expensive manner of settling the dispute. So it is important for my fellow Farangs out there in TV land to find out whether your spouse or partner has a phuu yai, often a wealthy landowner or neighbor from the home village, a village headman, or the local kamnaan, and get to know these people and befriend them, enter into a minimal traditional patron-client relationship with them as hosting them for a good meal a few times a year will usually pay off over the long term.

[Bramble]

If it is a usufruct that gives you your claim on the land, Sunbelt Asia contends that you may lease out the land for up to 30 years at anytime during the course of the usufruct. If is a usufruct until your death, if you were ever aware when that might be, you can control the property beyond your lifetime. That knowledge, combined with absolutely cutting off contact and funds to the family might get them around to your way of thinking in several months time.

Dear Lannarebirth and friends: thank you very much. The security of the usufruct is a very useful ploy, and leasing the property (which is a student dormitory) is a plausible path to take. While I'd like my cash back, the family is much keener to get their hands on it than I am! These options do offer some real possibility of moderating their greed in the medium or short term. I had been feeling under pressure to persuade them (one way or another) to change their minds about agreeing to an immediate sale, but these suggestions take some of that pressure off, and provide the chance of influencing what they ask for now or in the future. I regret that I have got to the position where I don't trust anyone any more (though I'm not sure that things here in Thailand are any worse than elsewhere. Death does seem to bring out the worst in people.) Comments have been very helpful and supportive - thank you all!

[Bramble]

In addition to a lot of the other advice which sounds excellent, I had these comments.

- Did your partner have a will to indicate how to resolve the issue of her signature?

- In order to sell, one needs a buyer and in particular a buyer who is willing to pay the price you hope to get. The more locally publicized this issue gets, the less likely you are to find a buyer who will pay what you think the property is worth.

- The best way to remove pressure is do deal with it quickly and resolve the matter completely to closure, or to completely remove yourself from the picture and let the pressure release over time. The first option doesn't seem very pragmatic in your case.

- If anyone finds a lawyer whose primary advice is to get the matter into court to get it resolved, then the best option is to sh*t-can that lawyer and go find a real one.

- Although this doesn't sound like it would be acceptable, I would suggest some sort of incentive/dis-incentive to the family. Basically tell them, here's the deal. Go help me find a buyer. If we get the asking price, you get 10%. If we get below the asking price, you get 5%. If we get above the asking price, you get 15%. Incentivise them to create a situation where everyone can "save face." As others have suggested, do all this through a decent lawyer, which does not seem to describe the one you have now.

- If you are going to let the property as others have suggested, then you need to be sure you will get an amount of rent to make it worthwhile. If you rent a nice place for peanuts with the chance that the renters may trash it, then you will lose money and gain headaches over time. You might almost be better off leaving the place empty.

- I would also get some insurance if you can. The chances of vandalism, arson or something like that, may be a possibility.

- Something that hasn't been suggested but might be worthwhile is this. Your partner's family was in debt before you met her. You were a jai-dee chap and helped them out with their problem once. To me, it seems quite likely that the family is probably now back in debt, and this is pushing them for the quick kill and cash influx. I would have someone make some inquiries to find out if they are in debt, if so by how much and to whom, and offer to resolve their debt problems for their signature.

- Of course, this assumes that their debt problems are not too serious and manageable. If the family has gone and gotten themselves in debt to a significant percentage of the property's selling value, then they have probably created a very serious problem for both them and you. On the other hand, if it their current debt is smallish and something you can handle, then maybe you have some room to bargain.

- I'm no legal expert, but the last thing you should want is to have this settled in court. As the farang, you should expect every tie-breaker and benefit of the doubt to work against you.

Good luck with your problem. Unfortunately, it sounds like you will need it.

Thanks again. All makes very good sense and I am grateful for your trouble. I think I shall need some luck indeed, but the collective intelligence of this Forum certainly generates some sound advice and helpful support. [For those who think the cause of death is relevant it was a combination of cirrhosis of the liver and cancer at 34 years old.]

[mikethevigoman]

In order to co-operate in settling affairs after the death of my partner last year, the family is demanding Baht3.5m. It's not strictly a legal matter at this stage, but my lawyer doesn't see how we can respond effectively wthout going to court which I'm not at all keen to do (years of uncertainty, wasted money).

The family has had enormous amounts of cash from me already (monthly allowances, redeeming their land from repossession, etc, etc) and the claim is utterly absurd.

I don't know what to do. I feel that the problem cannot be resolved while it remains private (surely if it were made public there would be some shame in making such demands?) Currently I have written to the UK Embassy (they say they can do nothing), and am thinking about writing to the Governors of my province and the family's. I might even go to a TV station or newspaper in the end. So many farang have this kind of problem yet the miseries remain mostly hidden: what can we do to get the problem recognised and resist this exploitation and abuse?

I've made a generous offer to them to settle everything, but they are being driven by a greedy lawyer (presumably on a percentage), and I don't know what to do to resist the pressure. Any thoughts?

Jeez i feel sorry for you, there was a programme on tv called "when animals attack ' , there ought to be one made " when thais attack ", this is what some thais do when they smell money and they dont let go,. unfortunatly from the little you have told us here i see you with a problem as you need THEIR signatures to sell/settle. catch 22 ? ,.This is what i would do, ( if it applies ), if you can afford to ,drag it out after offering a low settlement,..even go somewhre and pretend you have no interest,. they may, just may think sod it ,lets take what we can when we can, good luck,. .sorry, i have to add, remember here in Thailand if a lawyers lips are moving there is a good chance hes lying, treat even your own lawyer with caution,. Edited February 13, 2008 by mikethevigoman

[meom]

I need their sigantures (along with mine and another partner) on property sales documents. Without their signatures and ours, we cannot sell, and there will be no money of any kind for anyone. My (generous) settlement offer to them (much less than their daft demand) would come out of the proceeds of the sale.

The way I read it the family has the upper hand and if it goes to court you will be the one to be offered a settlement as compensation for lifelong free use.

Don't know how the court would valuate this but my guess is that they would go with some sort of average rent value that you might get if you would lease out the place.

So if you do decide to rent out the place better make sure you get a good amount because whatever you get will set the standard for any future compensation should the family go to court in order to buy you out.

[kat]

As you don’t own the land but you do have rights to use the land.

On your side you have the knowledge that no one will buy the land while your signature is on the Chanote.

Against you are the rights of the OWNERS and importantly your eagerness to sell up to get your capital out.

As others have said, if you go to court you may well be seen as holding the OWNERS to ransom.

What you ought to be aiming at is getting to a position where the family want to sell, and they are asking you how much you want compensating in order to give up your valuable life long tenancy.

r

It of course seems that there is a lot stacked against you, but I do think you have two more cards up your sleeve – Time and your knowledge of the life style and habits of your former partner’s family.

You have stated that you have previously paid off their debts and that you have provided an income to them in regular hand-outs.

A few things to note here – My guess is the family have an ingrained habit of debt, lately encouraged by the expectation that you will always be there to pay off debts they amass.

I also suspect that the sudden expectation of a cash lump sum has been the cause of much partying, much planning and much expenditure.

Added to which the steady income you once provided has dried up.

Time and old habits are almost certainly going to bring new debts. Thwarted expectations of easy cash and the goodies it has been ear marked for is sure to bring about frustration. Loss of income is simply going to hurt… every single day.

I would therefore withdraw your offer, get a tenant (or better still continue to use the property yourself). Get your lawyer to write to their lawyer that ‘the offer they have made does not compensate you for your loss of tenure, you can’t afford to accept their offer and you shall continue retain and make use your rights to the property’.

This is a double message – a message to the family they are not going to get any easy money any time soon and its also a message to their lawyer that he himself is not going to get paid. Don’t tell your lawyer your game plan (as others have said, he may be in on the act) - just give the outward impression that you have changed your mind.

Then wait and see what happens.

Greed is a vice that right now is being directed at you – when you cut off the family’s expectation of easy and quick money, greed will remain and start to eat at them.

Greed, debts, frustrated expectations, daily hardship…. Believe me - They will be back with a better offer.

In summary, calm down and play hard to get.

You foolishly created a dependency – Now for once use it to your advantage.

Excellent advice. GH is so smart.

The advice of "Steve" to get a well-chosen intermediary is also right on the money.

So, you have two very good bits of advice from two mixed-race Asian men (if I remember correctly about GH).

hahahaha I know...... call me what you want "steve whatever". Rule number one NEVER BUY A HOUSE IN SOMBODY'S NAME IN THAILAND. I am entitled to an opinion or not? you don't like it? tough! You trust Thais, I don't. Does this make me racist??? Pretty dumb reply to my post from your part there "steve whatever". Ummmm you didn't buy a....... hahaha dont want to upset you you even more nor do I want to elicit more stupid and benile comments about my posts from you. Do us all a favor and grow up!

Steve is Thai....

"Steve" is a very attractive mixture of Thai/Chinese and Kiwi.

[GuestHouse]

Excellent advice. GH is so smart.

The advice of "Steve" to get a well-chosen intermediary is also right on the money.

So, you have two very good bits of advice from two mixed-race Asian men (if I remember correctly about GH).

Mixed race indeed and a nice mix too, but I'll keep the details to myself (petty minds have a habit of bringing up such things when they've been intellectually battered).

Steve is Thai....

"Steve" is a very attractive mixture of Thai/Chinese and Kiwi.

Lucky Steve, nice as my own mix is .. I'm Ugly.

I tell myself its a good thing not to be perfect..

[dumspero]

This is not a Thai story, this is a human story. There will always be a certain number of people who will take advantage of others. People are people. I guess it's sad that I'm still offended and even surprised by the bitter prejudice on this forum.

We also have land alienation restrictions where I live. Get over yourselves--your problems with land titles are not unique.

The simple lesson for others here is don't try to circumvent the law and you won't get hurt. If one has land in another's name, it is just that, in another's name.

I didn't see the answer to the will question, and I don't know how intestate succession works in Thailand, but it seems likely that if your late partner left the land to her family in a will--it's theirs, subject only to your lifetime rights. If your late partner did in fact die intestate, then it seems equally likely her family is now the owner. And this business about a 30 year lease on your deathbed seems like an end run that is highly suspect legally.

I'm sorry if the family is going back on some kind of informal understanding, but really, did you ever have such an agreement with them, or just your late partner?

But, to the extent it's all about you, agree with the advice to sit on the issue and see what happens.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It is sad to see that some poeple forget "rule number 1": NEVER BUY PROPERTY in somebody else's name in Thailand unless they are your own children then of course it's a different matter....

And rule number 2: NEVER TRUST A THAI (but we all knew that already )

Yeah ALL OF US are out to rip you dumb farang off

Cut out the dips^&t comments about trust and the racist insinuation ya clown What is this 'we'???

Anyhow, I would repeat to use a lawyer or senior person to remove any face to face dealings, not just for personal safety possibly, but also because i suspect many foreigners who don't speak Thai well have distinct problems of controlling their emotions when they perceive someone is 'extracting the urine'.

By making the family lose face, this could reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally drag out or become vindictive. Keep it all impartial, enforce your rights, and at least iMHo consider sorting it out without you actually having to be present too much of the time. I would definitely not be visiting the place for long weekends etc for instance.

Cafe - you are a true legend and a scholar. Well done homey.

Good advice.

[naklang]

Can't he do things the Thai way and get the documents "fixed" with a little bribe. Then he could price it for a quick sale, pocket the loot, and get the heck out of town. The reverse has been done to farang many a time.

Edited February 13, 2008 by naklang

[ttthailand]

If your GF was still alive and you parted company how would you have handled it ?

Another thing to add, Unless she could aford it at the time herself you may be able to show in court that you paid for it, a loan to her.

[t.s]

Excelent post from "guesthouse" I hope you follow his advice, I really do.

It is sad to see that some poeple forget "rule number 1": NEVER BUY PROPERTY in somebody else's name in Thailand unless they are your own children then of course it's a different matter....

And rule number 2: NEVER TRUST A THAI (but we all knew that already )

what if that thai is your child?

edit: repair open tag

Edited February 14, 2008 by t.s

[t.s]

hahahaha I know...... call me what you want "steve whatever". Rule number one NEVER BUY A HOUSE IN SOMBODY'S NAME IN THAILAND. I am entitled to an opinion or not? you don't like it? tough! You trust Thais, I don't. Does this make me racist??? Pretty dumb reply to my post from your part there "steve whatever". Ummmm you didn't buy a....... hahaha dont want to upset you you even more nor do I want to elicit more stupid and benile comments about my posts from you. Do us all a favor and grow up!

Steve is Thai....

and cafes sounds like he may be part <deleted>

[palm]

Rule number one NEVER BUY A HOUSE IN SOMBODY'S NAME IN THAILAND.

It sounds like loosing a single house in Thailand would be a financial disaster for you? Are your finances really that low?

[Bramble]

If your GF was still alive and you parted company how would you have handled it ?

Another thing to add, Unless she could aford it at the time herself you may be able to show in court that you paid for it, a loan to her.

Thanks, yes, that's a good point which has been mentioned to me outside this forum. Should it get to the point of querying whose resources were involved, I can demonstrate from my bank records (and partner's) that all cash at all times came from me. It's something which, if we went to court, would probably have some influence, not on the basic question of ownership, but on what was a reasonable settlement.

The whole thing could be settled quickly if I just agreed to pay up. I've already agreed a generous settlement, and the family actually signed a witnessed agreement last year to settle everything and accept my offer. Days after signing they changed their minds and started demanding five times more. It's not that I couldn't pay the cash they're asking for, or that it would ruin me, it's that I'm furious about the unreasonableness and ingratitude of their demands and am not willing just to cave in an pay up.

[dumspero]

I guess I'm in the minority here but I just don't see why the family is wrong.

You paid money so that you would hold a life estate and your partner would hold the fee remainder interest. She has passed away. You still have the life estate and now her heirs hold her interest. You want that interest and they want you to pay for it.

Why are they wong? How are they being greedy? You still have your interest and can sell it or hold it. Up to you.

It just seems that you want her interest for free or a special discount, and yet I don't see how or why that's right. Certainly not just because you paid for it, and certainly not if the whole arrangement were designed to circuvent the land alienation laws.

[steveromagnino]

Sorry to all (including Cafe) - had a bit of a rough day yesterday so took it out a bit on him. It was a bit harsh.

Cafe - you might want to rethink statements like 'all' and 'everyone' - it is always going to entice a response when you make big claims like this. Not everyone on this board is in your position.

Thanks for the PM expressing your emotions; we all let our tempers get away from us sometimes; maybe I should have taken my own advice and used an intermediary.

Thanks to those of you who showed 'much love' to me along the last couple of pages; appreciate the thoughts.

Happy Valentines day to all!

[thaihome]

I guess I'm in the minority here but I just don't see why the family is wrong.

You paid money so that you would hold a life estate and your partner would hold the fee remainder interest. She has passed away. You still have the life estate and now her heirs hold her interest. You want that interest and they want you to pay for it.

Why are they wong? How are they being greedy? You still have your interest and can sell it or hold it. Up to you.

It just seems that you want her interest for free or a special discount, and yet I don't see how or why that's right. Certainly not just because you paid for it, and certainly not if the whole arrangement were designed to circuvent the land alienation laws.

From what I understand of the situation, I have to agree with this. What is the family doing that they are not legally entitled do to?

they are willing to give him 30% to buy him out, what does he expect? To get his entire investment back? On what grounds? He paid his money to be able to use the property for his entire life and now he wants out early. There must be a large discount for this.

Now, he does have some leverage that he is not using that might get him more, but as said, it will come down to who can wait the longest.

TH

Edited February 14, 2008 by thaihome

[backflip]

"They are effectively asking for 70% of the sale price to agree to sell at all."

What do you consider fair, 50%? In terms of money, what is the difference between the 50% you offer, and the 70% they want? Is it worth to expend significant resources to gain the other 20%.

[Bramble]

"They are effectively asking for 70% of the sale price to agree to sell at all."

What do you consider fair, 50%? In terms of money, what is the difference between the 50% you offer, and the 70% they want? Is it worth to expend significant resources to gain the other 20%.

Well Thaihome and Backflip, you are correct of course in technical and legal terms. I never suggested that they were acting illegally, just unreasonably. The business was bought so my partner could have an interesting occupation and enjoy the income, while everyone understood at the time that the investment capital was mine and my English friend's. Had there been any likely profit in the current sale deal, I'd happily have split it with the family or given it to them. The issues are about undocumented promises and trust which clearly have no weight at all, and, of course, I and my co-investor were stupid to imagine that we could rely on anyone's word in the circumstances - I don't need reminding of that! Thanks all for your thoughts.

[Bluelotus]

Make them an offer you feel is fair and hire a bulldozer . Invite them to the house to sign the deal as your LAST offer and start the bull dozer yourself . Let me know how it works out

[jumbojumbo]

If you want out the easy way then accept the 50% and move on.

If you want a fun way out and get what you want then Bluelotus has my backing.

BRING IN THE BULLDOZER

[GuestHouse]

If you want out the easy way then accept the 50% and move on.

If you want a fun way out and get what you want then Bluelotus has my backing.

BRING IN THE BULLDOZER

An Unsufruct contract usually contains terms relating to maintianing the condition of the land - I think you'll find that if you knock a house down on the land you'd also be expected to remove the rubble, the foundations and drains etc.

It might seem like a salve for a hurt pride, but I'd advise cooling down and as I have said before, playing hard to get.