Israel To Kick Out Asian Restaurant Workers

[Donnyboy]

Tit for Tat is the way the Thais should go.

tit for tat is how the world works, unfortunately, some use it disproportionately

[Harcourt]

Off the politics and to the food question that some have raised, ie can a Westerner cook Thai food as well as a Thai.... yeah, sure he/she could.

But just as food improves with aesthetic presentation, so too it improves with the atmosphere in which it is presented. If I am eating Thai food and am served by a Mexican (say), somehow, the meal loses some of it's pizzazz, not because I dislike Mexicans, but because I am trying to eat a Thai experience. Same goes for the ambience, music etc. Thai food doesn't taste quite the same if served in (say) a restaurant decked out as an Indian restaurant with Ravi Shankar playing softly in the background.

I want authentic chefs with authentic waitresses.

[wilsongbrown]

I think a fare percentage of 'Thai Restaurants' are actually re-branded Chinese restaurants.

I would feel weird going to a asian resturant and white people were the ones cooking and serving.

It definately wouldnt be as good

You mean the race of the person cooking and serving makes for better or worse food?

How very strange

I'm guessing you've never been into a 'farang' food restaurant here in Thailand and had to endure the godawful Thai interpretations of it, from mexican, to Italian, to egg and chips, I could go on.

And by the way. No. I wouldn't patronise a Thai restaurant, or Indian/Japanese, in the West, if the food were not being prepared by indigenous cooks. Dumb remark.

[TheGoodDoctor]

So many jokes I could make, but I won't.

[Huey]

Off the politics and to the food question that some have raised, ie can a Westerner cook Thai food as well as a Thai.... yeah, sure he/she could.

But just as food improves with aesthetic presentation, so too it improves with the atmosphere in which it is presented. If I am eating Thai food and am served by a Mexican (say), somehow, the meal loses some of it's pizzazz, not because I dislike Mexicans, but because I am trying to eat a Thai experience. Same goes for the ambience, music etc. Thai food doesn't taste quite the same if served in (say) a restaurant decked out as an Indian restaurant with Ravi Shankar playing softly in the background.

I want authentic chefs with authentic waitresses.

I totally agree. It's all part of the Ambiance, I mean really you go to Le Normande, in the Oriental, and they will have a french matradee and he's usually on point. You feel like your getting good quality french cuisneene. No I don't care if in the kitchen they got 2 Koreans and a Jamacian Rasta with his dreads wraped up in a meter tall chef hat! So long as the quality is there.

Same goes for Thai resturants, on my last trip back to the States I went to a place that was supposed to be a "Thai" resturant and it used to have THAI chefs and wait staff, now everyone were mexicans and Latinos...great if I want a enchillada with plenty of sour cream and guac, but I totally lost my appitite for Moo Crop na man hoi.

Mabye it's cold but it's the truth, as a customer I want the full ambeiance and conveniance of having the appropriate ethenticity of wait staff in "ethnic" resturants. And as a business owner if it were my resturant I would want to provide that to my customer.

And before anyone says thats wrong or cold blooded, I was with my wife in the States when we went to that "Thai" resturant with no Thais. Even if the food was so so, if the staff were Thai she would have been happy to order her food in her own language and would have enjoyed it more even if the food cooked by the Mexican was better.

It's resturants not just catering service where you make your own ambiance, it's not JUST about the food.

[Svenn]

Seems a bit harsh for Israel to expel "Asians" in particular and not Africans, South Americans, etc... but you gotta admit, low-level cooking is a pretty poor excuse for a full working visa in a country whose natives apparently need the jobs. Moreover, the Israeli people did give more than half the world their religion, so maybe we should give them deference

[sassienie]

Seems a bit harsh for Israel to expel "Asians" in particular and not Africans, South Americans, etc... but you gotta admit, low-level cooking is a pretty poor excuse for a full working visa in a country whose natives apparently need the jobs. Moreover, the Israeli people did give more than half the world their religion, so maybe we should give them deference

That’s true.

The Israelis have the recipe now, so I suppose the Thais and Filipinos can sod off.

The Lord giveth and the Lord takith away.

Amen

And before anyone accuses me of being anti-Semitic or anti Israel, I am of Jewish ancestry myself and proud.

I just do not agree with these harsh policies and hope that this never happens to us who have invested and intend to spend the rest of our lives in Thailand.

Edited October 17, 2009 by sassienie

[Svenn]

Seems a bit harsh for Israel to expel "Asians" in particular and not Africans, South Americans, etc... but you gotta admit, low-level cooking is a pretty poor excuse for a full working visa in a country whose natives apparently need the jobs. Moreover, the Israeli people did give more than half the world their religion, so maybe we should give them deference

That's true.

The Israelis have the recipe now, so I suppose the Thais and Filipinos can sod off.

The Lord giveth and the Lord takith away.

Amen

^That kind of sarcasm was not what I was implying. I was actually just trying to remind the anti-Israeli fanatics out there that the good part of Europe has adopted a once Israeli as their diety, and the rest of the world's continents have adopted some aspect of Abraham's faith in one way or another, all 3.8 billion of humanity. The point is that Israel is a sovereign country that's part of this world just as much as any other country, that has immigration discretion (it's not an industrial park for errant workers, folks). That being said, this particular immigration law does smell of pushy nationalism.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Svenn

[bina]

Asians" in particular and not Africans, South Americans

swenn, actually its mostly the africans and in particular the sudanese who are political refugees coming thru illegally via the sinai and egypt ; i personally know several who WALKED most of the way and bribed beduins,got ripped off, stranded int he desert, the israeli army who patrol the area found them, gave them first aid and now are being dealt with by the authorities... their story is similar to the mexicans that come over illegaly thru the desert and die along the way. here, those that make it, are either jailed until someone figures out wthat to do with them, or they become illegal aliens... same as nigerians. a humanitarian problem here but not the subject. they are the ones getting held in jails since to deport them would be sending them to their death. so they are jailed. including mothers and children so now there is a special jail setup for mothers and children up to age 14. its complex. but all this should just make the farang stop complaining about visa problem they have in thailand.

again i reiterate: the thais are not being kicked out. they are being grandfathered out. no new visas for thai restaraunt workers. their five years or four years five months are up, they go home.

thai agri workers will probably continue as usual once the 'skies open' policy re activates after january as it does every year. no different then farang int hailand getting hsi work visa/extension of stay renewed or revoked. the difference is that thai/israeli companies are the ones that push for the 'revolving door' policy of workers going home after three years and not five as allowed by israeli immigration. in three years most thais done manage to make the money needed to return the loans/bribes he made to get here in the first place.

as for restaraunts; the owners of the places want the chefs to be thai even if the arab guys that also work in the business can stir fry just as well. cause most of the thai food here is fast food asian. not real thai. most chnese restaraunts here are also thai and arab workers. the thai do the wok, the arabs the veggie prep and the israeli students who make up the rest of the staff, they are the waiters usually.. israelis dont last long int he kitchen.

since i am now in the food business, and rub shoulders with chefs, both nationally known and just starting out chefs/ i can say that israeli chefs-not high cuisine in tel aviv but a local asian or israeli food restaraunt cook -will make minimum wage where as a thai chef (with certificate) makes three times as much (israeli chef in a jeruslaem restaraunt with certs, that hasnt had many many years under his belt (and most are men) will make 22/24 shekel an hour, no benefits, overworked, no breaks, no bus/car fare-- a thai must be paid 8000 shekel gross monthly plus living quarters. and most restaraunt owners will cater to their thai chef's whims more then to an israeli's whims. my hsuband gets a bit more then minimum but they pay his bus fare which is quite high as we live a distance from the place. they pay legally, inculding our version of social security. an other chef from our kibbutz is making less, no car/bus fare, and no benefits whatsoever and when he complained, was told they could easilly find someone else.

thai cooks however, are becoming a commodity to keep hold of. and keeping a visa to keep a thai chef is becoming much more difficult. the restaruant has to have a revenue of x amount per year per visa . because of the depression, many restaraunts have fallen on hard times and lost money, so lose their ability to have a visa for a worker. so the previous restaraunt my husband worked at in tel aviv, which serves the lunchtime high tec crowd, lost money, lost its two visas, therefore lost its chinese workers. they now have arab kitchen staff and some students that work shift work. most israelis dont like kitchen work, i know cause i do it. we have shifts of students working, but they all leave after a year cause its hard work and there is easier work for the same salary.

the bad part of this visa thing is that, at least in the agric section, they are getting ripped off. the restaruant workers are more savvy , not bannork for the most part, are more 'mueng' and also live in israeli cities so are more exposed to other thai, otehr workers in general, the night life, and in general have a slightly better lifestyle i think.

my husband disagrees. he prefers to work 12 hour days picking cucumbers rather than dealing with customers and the hustle/bustle of fast food, the commuting, and the non communal nature of the work. in the fields, the thais are together, eat together, drink together, listen to music, have parties, hang out, its basically little isaan. the restaruant workers have less time, and are less 'together' as thais, but have more social exposure to nigerians, sudanese, filapina/o, and arabs and israelis of course. more sophisticated too.

it just cracks me up to see people argueing about things that they havent a clue about. im in the business now and work with thais so i get all teh view points. i dont neccessarily agree with the policies but am stating the facts.

and the work visa is glued in the passport, anon's is full of pasted squares for re entree visas, and renewed extensions based on me as his wife. he also has temp. residence now. he has to renew it every year for five years. try that in thailand.

nearly forgot; most thai chefs here learn very quickly about kosher and what that means. most of the asian food here is kosher unfortunately meaning no shrimp/shell fish/catfish or pork. kind of limits a lot of the flavour. now where anon works they want to add sushi. so they wanted him to do sushi. what does a thai and sushi have in common? especially when many talented israeli chefs are professionals in sushi? thais have slantly eyes and most israelis dont distinguish between one asian and the next. anon hates sushi and refused. didnt want 'the head ache' to think too much . easier to stir fry. go figure.

bina

israel

[Harcourt]

Seems a bit harsh for Israel to expel "Asians" in particular and not Africans, South Americans, etc... but you gotta admit, low-level cooking is a pretty poor excuse for a full working visa in a country whose natives apparently need the jobs. Moreover, the Israeli people did give more than half the world their religion, so maybe we should give them deference

That's true.

The Israelis have the recipe now, so I suppose the Thais and Filipinos can sod off.

The Lord giveth and the Lord takith away.

Amen

^That kind of sarcasm was not what I was implying. I was actually just trying to remind the anti-Israeli fanatics out there that the good part of Europe has adopted a once Israeli as their diety, and the rest of the world's continents have adopted some aspect of Abraham's faith in one way or another, all 3.8 billion of humanity. The point is that Israel is a sovereign country that's part of this world just as much as any other country, that has immigration discretion (it's not an industrial park for errant workers, folks). That being said, this particular immigration law does smell of pushy nationalism.

It sounds like you assume that the anti-Isreali "fanatics" are religious and followers of one of Abraham's offshoot faiths.

Can't anyone be anti-Isreali purely for ....... humanitarian reasons, for example, and thus not give a hoot about the origin of any deity?

Bina has asked that this doesn't get into a politically charged thread..... I assume that goes for both sides of the political divide.

[Huey]

Thank you Harcourt, I'm doing my best, out of respect for the mod, to hold my tongue on the politics. However if everyone else is gonna continue to go there I don't see why I shouldn't.

[Ulysses G.]

Bina has asked that this doesn't get into a politically charged thread.....

You understand that, so why are you trying to turn it into one after being warned over and over again?

[Harcourt]

Bina has asked that this doesn't get into a politically charged thread.....

You understand that, so why are you trying to turn it into one after being warned over and over again?

??

The response I made was a neutral question and merely putting balance to a political/religious comment.

The point I make is that there are two sides to a political argument, and if one side is asked to refrain, then surely the other side should refrain also.

[MiG16]

However if everyone else is gonna continue to go there I don't see why I shouldn't.

just cos you see someone breaking the law, would you also break it?

if not, why would you do that about breaking thaivisa rules?

now, lets keep this discussion on topic, or if everyone has had enough of the topic, it can easily be closed

your choice.......

[JimsKnight]

I think a fare percentage of 'Thai Restaurants' are actually re-branded Chinese restaurants.

I would feel weird going to a asian resturant and white people were the ones cooking and serving.

It definately wouldnt be as good

You mean the race of the person cooking and serving makes for better or worse food?

How very strange

1.There are no such thing as 'race' for human beings, we all get down from trees in eastern Africa some time ago !

No that's still a matter of debate is by no means unanimous.

2.Cuisine is an integral part of something named CULTURE, and one does not acquire a culture by short trainings ...

I agree

[Rumfoord]

they now have arab kitchen staff and some students that work shift work. most israelis dont like kitchen work, i know cause i do it. we have shifts of students working, but they all leave after a year cause its hard work and there is easier work for the same salary.

bina

israel

aren't one-fifth of the israelis arab citizens? in jerusalem even one-third? and most of them muslim?

why make that distinction between arab and israeli?

[sassienie]

Bina has asked that this doesn't get into a politically charged thread.....

You understand that, so why are you trying to turn it into one after being warned over and over again?

It`s not about Israel as the whole, but only regarding these alleged Immigration policies.

But I must admit on reading the sketchy news reports on this subject that appear to be from dubious sources, I am having doubts of the authenticity of these reports.

Perhaps someone in the know could enlighten us.

Edited October 18, 2009 by sassienie

[bina]

oh, sassiere,

no sketchy news reports about the immmigration and manpower companies policies... they are in our news on back pages every other day; and in the ministry of industry blurbs and in workers' rights group blurbs and as ive said a million times, i deal with this stuff daily and on weekends (since i speak thai)...

but im closing the thread cause people here get caught up in the wrong stream, as it were...

i would love to discuss the anthropological ramifications of the jewish israeli/arab israeli muslem psychological and social conflicts of day to day living but this is not the forum for it, plus we discuss this ad nauseum between us (arab guys and kibbutzniks and employees from local moshavim) at our coffee breaks at work so really dont feel like discussing it all here on a thailand forum.

well, gotta go eat some tom yum kung, thread officially closed. sorry for those that tried to stick to the subject but just like in kindergarten, when the kids keep squabbling over the ball, the ball goes back to the closet. u can always pm me and ask about the current immigration situation as we are doing anon's visa this next two months ....

ps:

anyone who wants first hand info can come and visit me... i promise that your chance of getting blown up is much less likely then the chance that u will get injured in a car accident.