Plz Help Me With My Question

[whitevan73]

Hi my name is Sukanya and i am doing an assignment for my IFY at Uni. I am doing a presentation (spoken) about the quality of teaching English in Thai schools and Uni. I would like your opinions on the subject and what you think about Thailand compared to other SE Asian countries? Do you think the Quality of the teaching is good or bad and why is this so?

Your input will be very helpfull to me.

Thanks in advance Sukanya (Da)

[Sporting Dog]

It certainly got worse since/because I left.

[misterman21]

The teaching is no differnt to any othere asian country - but the students are. They seem to believe that if their parents spend money on english lessons then thats it - no effort required!

In my humble opinion the level of understanding english over the past 15 years or so has dropped dramatically in thailand - whilst improving dramatically in the rest of asia.

Most likely causes - nationalism and face culture

Thai Rak Thai

[aussiestyle1983]

I would like your opinions on the subject and what you think about Thailand compared to other SE Asian countries?

Thailand would be close to the bottom. This is due to the fact that a lot of criminals have been caught teaching in Thailand, even peadophiles (excuse my spelling if it was wrong). There is so much dodgy stuff going on in Thailand, school hire who they want regardless of qualifications. If you know someone you can still get a teaching job even if you are underqualified. Common sense tells me that corruption, hyprocracy, and the just plain stupidness of many Thai officials is the main reason that even in the SE Asian region with poorer nations such as Cambodia, Thailand still has to be at the bottom. Thailand has the ability to be close to the top, as it's economy is better that quite a few other SE Asian nations, but it chooses not to and chooses the parth of corruption instead, which leads to a corrupt and bad education system.

Do you think the Quality of the teaching is good or bad and why is this so?

Bad. Too many undesireables and for the same reasons above.

[PeaceBlondie]

Hello Sukanya (Da), and welcome to the Teaching Forum of ThaiVisa,

From the posts by your husband, I understand that you are Thai, and living in England, with the idea of becoming an English teacher in Thailand.

You asked our opinions "about the quality of teaching English in Thai schools and Uni. I would like your opinions on the subject and what you think about Thailand compared to other SE Asian countries? Do you think the Quality of the teaching is good or bad and why is this so?"

Due to tradition and customs in Thailand, the teaching of almost all subjects, especially English, stinks like a stagnant klong. You can major in English and graduate from a top uni such as CMU, with abominable dictation and poor grammar. Part of the problem relates to nationalism and ethnocentrism.

Please search around some of the more relevant threads (topics) in the teaching forum to see what we mean.

If you are considering a career teaching in Thailand, try anything except English and education; try business or economics or astronomics or space flight or marketing or sociology, get a British MA or Ph.D., and come here as a professor. Keeping in mind that you may well land in a corrupt university.

[otherstuff1957]

OK, I've got a couple of minutes before I have to rush off, so here's my two cents - or rather two pence, as you seem to be in England!

I have never taught in other SE Asian Counties, so I cannot compare English teaching here with them. However, I have taught English in Thailand for 4 & 1/2 years and I can tell you what the biggest problems are:

1. Too many students & not enough teachers (Thai or Native Speakers). This means that most classes have 40+ students. With classes this size, interactive teaching methods are useless. The students my get used to hearing and writing English, but they simply won't have the face time with their teachers to actually practice spoken English. Given the number of Thai teachers who are retiring and not being replaced, this problem will only become more acute in the next few years.

2. Lack of coordination between the Thai teachers and the Farang teachers. Every Semester for 3.5 years I asked the Thai Dept. Head for some idea of what grammar & vocabulary the Thai teachers were teaching, so that my Conversation classes could supplement & reinforce the rest of their English lessons. Every year I was told that that was not possible. This year I've been teaching in an EP program so I am only coordinating with other Farang teachers. We DO coordinate our cirricula so that they reinforce each other!

[CosmicSurfer]

Hi my name is Sukanya and i am doing an assignment for my IFY at Uni. I am doing a presentation (spoken) about the quality of teaching English in Thai schools and Uni. I would like your opinions on the subject and what you think about Thailand compared to other SE Asian countries? Do you think the Quality of the teaching is good or bad and why is this so?

Your input will be very helpfull to me.

Thanks in advance Sukanya (Da)

Hmm... I guess I posted some of this before in the thread Your Husband (???) started...

But I'll expand a little first.... and repost my earlier comments below.

I've been teaching in Thailand for 6 years.. 4 doing TWO full time jobs at the same time.. so I guess that gives me 10 years of experience.. High School, Private School, Corporate, even a short time doing Grade 1 Elementary looking for a place where the students had a 50/50 chance of learning.. But forget it.. It doesn't exist in Thailand.

You asked about difference between Thailand and other Asian countries... I have to say it comes down to the "Maturity" of the culture... By that I don't mean AGE.. I mean Confidence and approach to outside influences...

Other cultures have realized that the world is a small place and know that they can't totally close their society to outside influences if they want to sit at the Adult Table and play with the "Big" people.. They have cultures that even if they believe in their own superiority, accept and even assimilate features and attitudes of out-side cultures.. They aren't overly paranoid about their culture disappearing or absorbing influences from others.. They accept that these influences will help their people be competitive in the global market-place.. They understand that small-mindedness and corruption are self-defeating in the long term... they embrace and look to conquer or master some cultural attributes so that they can turn them around and use them to win..

But here.. The reverse is true.. Instead of the Culture being a living, growing adapting thing, (as it is in Singapore, Hong Kong, China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc) Here It is a something considered delicate and eternal... Never changing or adapting to a modern shrinking world.. a thing to be fenced in and protected, not Nurtured, but Smothered... and of course buried under a feudal, system of patronage corruption and hypocracy.

Education has no place in such a system.. Education is the tool of growth and change.. Education is NOT a tool for the perpetuation of the current system. If the people stay uneducated, then they can't ever understand the wrongs and injustices of the current system... If they are never educated and learn the truth of equality, freedom and democracy, they can never demand these things.. They can never understand that "Respect" is something to be earned based on deeds.. not given strictly due to a position in a based corrupt culture.

Education is Power.. and the Elites in this country will NEVER easily give up the POWER they feel is rightly Theirs, and Theirs alone.

They need to accept that other cultures can contribute to the betterment Thai Life... The Thai Way is NOT the Only way.. and it's usually the best way to go nowhere...

My Definition of 'Thai Style' - "Two Steps forward - One Step Back"

How to make it work ????

(Previously posted...) and slightly edited.

You need to Junk the WHOLE SYSTEM.. Including University... Current Thai University Degrees are useless outside of Thailand anyway.

You need to change Every level.. Every Subject.. and then accept that culture and the world is a living thing, always growing, evolving, and changing.. You can't stick your head in the mud and say, "Our way is the best way.. Our Culture is the best culture... Our System is the Best System"... You can never improve a system that is based on a feudal mentality, patronage and corruption and has an Ostrich attitude and a vested interest in NOT educating the people so that the existing system of life can be perpetuated to keep the "Elite" the Elite and the "people" the people.. and never the twain shall meet!!!!!

Parent's need to accept responsibility for their children's education and also they need to teach their kids self-reliance. They need to cut the strings.. Let their kids sink or swim.. Kids need to stop relying on the Golden Spoon, and get out in the real world.. get summer jobs, part time jobs, learn about the reality of life and living.. Success and failure.. Thai students never learn about failure until it's too late.

The Government needs to make English and Multi-cultural education a Priority.. They need English language TV Stations... (If not in Spoken English, then at least with English Sub-titles) International TV shows, Dramas and Comedies, Westerns and Legal Eagles, Medical Shows and Detective Shows. Enough of these Hi-So Soaps and inane Game shows. Bring in Shows like CSI, West Wing, Law and Order, and ER give them guidance ands Role-models. Thai Students will never change their attitudes unless the culture changes. Or at least, give them real life Thai equivalents as substitutes... Where is the Drama based on Khunying Porntip's life and work ???

So Start over from scratch...

There is absolutely no hope with an educational culture that believes that you can educate people without teaching them to THINK.

They need Air Con in every classroom.. who can think in 35-40+c. weather

They need Proper school books.. not the cheapest books that the school can buy, so they can save money for.. all the things they don't need (Corruption???)

They need a dose of real life reality in success and failure... Just like the Real world... No More Automatic passing.

They need to allow students to Fail their tests and grades... To hold them back if they haven't proven their absorption of the Study material.

They need testing that is NOT Multiple choice, or don't have questions that have more than one correct answer to a question out of 4 choices...

They need their Language Classes to be organized by aptitude, not only age or grade level. Learning a language is a talent, not a subject like math or chemistry.. either you have the aptitude or talent to absorb and express yourself or not.. People learn languages at different rates.. and without the support of "OUTSIDE INFLUENCES", like parents, friends, the Media and the government, the vast majority of learners never will pick it up... If the society and culture don't provide a reason, a value, then why should the students accept the problem. ( Who makes more money.. a Tuk-Tuk driver who speaks English, or a Thai English teacher, who doesn't??? )

They need to put an emphasis on LEARNING... and stop the ridiculous daily assemblies where they are told how stupid they are, or how wonderful the school is... and the "Sports Day" that consumes weeks of study time just before final exams.

They need to understand PRIORITIES. LEARNING is a Priority.. Sitting under a hot sun on a concrete courtyard being lectured on Morality is NOT a learning experience.

They Need a school schedule that is set in stone at the beginning of the year so all concerned can accurately plan their yearly goals...

Smaller Class sizes, Realistic Student/Teacher Ratios.

Proper Phys-Ed facilities, gyms, etc. (there are too many Ping-pong tables.. and a little grass would also be nice.)

They need teachers that teach.. and aren't in-love with their own voices or in collecting credentials, without eyer learning to establish rapport or providing direction and stimulation..

Forget the uniforms... The army needs sheep... Students should be Eagles.. they need to Fly, their minds need to soar... Sameness is deadening.. Individuality rules.

I could go on and on... Perhaps the question should be "What's good about the Thai Educational system?? What Works???"

You'd get a shorter list.

CS

[whitevan73]

Hi

Thank you for your replies, you have given me much to think about. It seems there are no or not many possitive things about teaching english in Thailand. Am i right thinking people cteach there for the love of Thailand and not because they want to teach? I dont mean everybody but a high percentage of people.

I notice another thread with similar theme, are there any and what are the possitive parts about teaching in Thailand. Yes i am in the uk and i study foundation year with a view to starting a degree next year in enlish and english lit. Yes i want to return to Thailand to have a good job with my english education.

Da

[aussiestyle1983]

My Definition of 'Thai Style' - "Two Steps forward - One Step Back"

I thought it was rather one step forward, one step back; and in some cases, one step forward two steps back.

[PeaceBlondie]

Da, I am sorry that our responses here and elsewhere are so negative. We came to Thailand naiively expecting to change the world, and we failed. My brightest, best-thinking student got rear-ended at a stoplight and died. In many cases, our best efforts went unappreciated. A new teacher/farang here spends the first 2 or 3 years trying to work their way up the insane system, changing schools too frequently to see progress.

Actually, Ken May's recent historical review in the Bangkok Post Learning Post showed that Thailand's educational system has come a long way in the 20th century, maybe ending up where the UK or US were by 1900. But, considering the pace of world events, it is too late and the entire Thai culture may never enter the 21st century. I suggest you stay in the West except to visit family. Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be nakrian.

[wilko]

Thailand has spent a lot of money and effort to employ native language speakers on the national English program....how many Brits/Aussies/ or Americans were taught any foreign language at school that featured a native speaker?.....or even a foreign language.

We are all aware of the importance and pervasiveness of the use of English in world business etc but this is not the only reason to learn another language. In Europe it can earn you money to learn any of the other languages....in USA Japanese, Chinese and Spanish. Furthermore learning a language broadens your outlook and allows a perspective from another point of view.

In Thailand even the lowest of the low know the Western alphabet and how many times has a security guard or local labourer shouted out a "hello" to you in English (sorry if you’re German or Swedish)?

Back in the UK they are taught French in school....yet I know of hardly anyone who is prepared to use it ...or could even if they had to. ....and as for Australian or American attempts at learning a language let alone another writing system...PLEASE!

It’s very easy to criticise the English Language program in Thailand and the entire education system has its faults but I think that some of the condescending comments on this posting reflect more on the ignorance of the posters than the actual merits of the system itself.

The country needs new blood in the teaching profession and there are many dedicated professionals out there both Thailand foreign, who are aware of modern teaching methods and are intent on making a difference. Class-room culture needs to be changed and Thailand needs to be dragged kicking and screaming away from learning by rote into the modern world...nut at least people are trying to do something here.....professionals, not ignorant bystanders.

Edited February 21, 2008 by wilko

[otherstuff1957]

Hi

Thank you for your replies, you have given me much to think about. It seems there are no or not many possitive things about teaching english in Thailand. Am i right thinking people cteach there for the love of Thailand and not because they want to teach? I dont mean everybody but a high percentage of people.

I notice another thread with similar theme, are there any and what are the possitive parts about teaching in Thailand. Yes i am in the uk and i study foundation year with a view to starting a degree next year in enlish and english lit. Yes i want to return to Thailand to have a good job with my english education.

Da

OK, here are some positives:

Every day you can find something in the news about a teacher being assaulted by students back in the US or the UK. That really doesn't seem to happen here. The students work well together, especially the girls. They tend to take care of mentally handicapped classmates (there's usually at least on in every class!). Although we criticize the teaching methods of the Thai teachers a lot, they usually do the best they can with the situation they are faced with.

As for the negativity that you hear on this and other boards, first of all, you are hearing from a very small segment of the Farang Teaching population here in Thailand. If you walk into a staffroom with, say 20 Foreign teachers, you might find 8 or 10 that read this forum occasionally, 3 or 4 who read it often and one who posts here. When that one person in 20 does post here, it's often because he or she want's to say something that they cannot say in person to their co-workers or Admin. An anonymous forum is a great place to vent ones frustrations and blow off a little steam. People who are happy and contended with their jobs will always be a minority on a web board like this. They might not be a minority in real life.

[wilko]

PS - bright students are a doddle I like when I see a teacher dealing well with the not-so-bright.

this country will benefit most from the bringing forward of the rank and file....the elite can often look after themselves to a far greater degree.

(except for tail-ending and the likes)

Edited February 21, 2008 by wilko

[Momo8]

Sukanya I suggest you check out these forums on Dave's ESL Cafe forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewforum for a broader view.Since the boys have already started flaming I'll stay out of the fray.

[Loaded]

I love teaching in Thailand. If I didn't, I would move and so should anyone else.

The foreign teachers who try to turn every nuance of Thai culture into a negative are quite common unfortunately. Because, overall, Thailand is a great place to live (yes, I know there are frustrations), this unfortunately attracts 'teachers' whose primary reason to come to Thailand isn't to teach.

In my years' of experience here, the biggest problem I've witnesed concerning farang teachers is their attitude, refusal to open their eyes and adjust, inability to roll with the frustrations, and behaviour as if they're on holiday in Benidorm. Farang teachers who make an adjustment to the foreign country they live in experience a great life. If you need to compare Thais and Thailand to Westerners and the West, I think you'll always be frustrated.

[PeaceBlondie]

If I may speak for my lady friend who tutors the international students and is too busy earning big bucks to post on forums: teaching in Thailand, especially to the brightest, the best, the internationalest, and those who try hardest, is a true joy.

Loaded, I wish that all the farang teachers only stayed here as teachers because they loved the work.

And before I forget it, we don't allow vicious attacks on teachers here. Several deletions and holidays have been awarded.

[Momo8]

I guess that's the category I was in PeaceBlondie working with international students in Bangkok so I'm not so familiar with the real goings on.That's not to say however that I was not aware of predicaments and challenges other teachers faced.That goes for China too.Only here in HK everything is above board and the students although spoilt have respect for teachers.

HK implemented the NET Scheme some years ago and this made a huge difference to acquiring the English language for the greater population.Teachers still complain about the scheme about isolation,lack of support from the local staff buy hey they are on HK$36 000-54 000/month so complaints are largely ignored.

Back to the OP,I think the government in Thailand needs to get their act together but this takes time and doesn't happen overnight.

Some excerpts for you Sukanya about what goes on in HK written by a former colleague.

Do You Want to Set Yourself in this Situation?

This is the ultimate question of a mature teacher. Do you want to set yourself in this situation? I’ll outline most of the things that a Primary Native English Teacher will go through in the Primary Native English Teacher Scheme in Hong Kong. And, remember the control you will have and probably the most control you will ever have in the scheme with be this question: Do I want to set myself in this situation?

There are things that others haven’t told you in their writings about the NET Scheme in Hong Kong. I don’t know why. Selective memory, only the teachers with good experiences have written or the writers have just simply forgotten to mention some really important facts in making a decision in which to apply and work in the NET Scheme in Hong Kong.

The interviewers!! They were nice, weren’t they? What you don’t know is that the attrition rates of PNET and SNET teachers are: 2006: PNET: 32%, SNET: 25 %; 2005: PNET :46%, SNET 53%; 2004: Started keeping statistics because so many were leaving. (South China Morning Post) These are not the statistics I heard, but I’ll go with the newspaper.) The statistics are not yet out this year, but these are the Employment and Manpower Bureau (EMB) statistics. So, with so many teachers leaving, they need to recruit teachers! They’d better be nice because all the teachers in the scheme are leaving at the end of their contracts. And, to add to this, the interviewers just interview. That is their job as they know it. Other ministries, schools and people (Supervisory Teachers (SET), English Panel Chairs (EPC) etc.) are responsible for their part with no coordination. What the interviewers say in the interview is only their word for it; it does not count further than that!

Ask yourself the question: Do I want to set myself in this situation?

The article about ‘___ White’ is completely true. I was here during that time. I had dealings with some of the support people helping her. (Please read the pre-existing article: ‘What about this?’ posted earlier.) The poor teacher was told by doctors after returning to Canada, not to work for one year!

Ask yourself the question: Do I want to set myself in this situation?

You think the number of years that you submit as bona fide years of educational experience will be counted at face value?? Surprise, surprise! No matter how many years you will submit, you will not receive them all. Teachers with bona fide (indisputable) 20 + experience, in educational systems in other countries, have been given many years less. A contract was signed, the EMB did not honour the number of years after the teacher had started teaching, ie. in October. Committed !! Lawyers were threatened, yet nothing done!! I had 8 years teaching in Korea in the institutes. I was given 2 years, 11 months and the small print says only full years count. One of those years was August 31, 1995 to August 28, 1996. What separated the dates was a weekend! Nope, not a full year! Down to two years. Eg. 2: Bona fide 17 years educational experience in Australia was ‘squashed’ to 12 years.

Also, Masters degrees and Ph.d.’s make no difference. There is no credit or pay increase for extra education.

The question is: Do I want to set myself in this situation?

It’s a school based curriculum in Hong Kong. Translation: school curriculum vary greatly from one school to the next. Fine you say? The EMB has very little power. This is the Ministry of Education with only the ‘power’ to recommend. The real power is in the hands of the principal or the supervisor for the governing body of the school. The principal has almost unlimited power. Some use discretion, others become ‘power drunk’. Principals turn the schools into ‘fiefdoms’ for what they feel is good for the school, students, parents or themselves.

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

You might come as a teaching couple. There is no consideration as to placing the two of you close together. Travel time is easily an hour each way. Add two hours to your daily schedule. You’ll be traveling much, much longer than you probably thought on really crowded public transit.

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

Schools are making and changing their schedules for longer and longer hours. The schools will have 10-12 hour days if you don’t speak up at the beginning and will expect you to work the same. The Hong Kong thinking is two fold: the more hours I work, the better teacher I am (or appear), and ‘I need to be seen pulling my weight so others will not complain.’

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

Don’t think you will have time for hobbies. You MIGHT have time for one hobby. After working, there isn’t much energy left inside of you for more.

Question: Do I want to put myself into this situation?

You, a PNET or SNET will be between two employers. The two employers are the EMB and the other is the school where you work. The two employers want different things. The EMB, who hired you (the interviewers), want the PNET/SNET as an ‘agent of change’. To provide new and relevant teaching pedagogy to the Local English Teachers (LETs). This is what they advertise for and what the advertisement tries to promote.

What the school wants is a PNET or SNET that will fit into their school culture and do what they are told. The school is not used to opinions: ‘After all, we are all going in the same direction!’ This is the type of thinking. And, the school is the one that signs the contract, the body that can terminate the contract within one month, the one that decides if they would like to renew your contract and probably most importantly whether they will give a gratuity at the end of the contract of 15% of your base salary. These plus a reference letter can be ‘held over your head’ during the duration of the contract.

The mature question is: Do I want to set myself in this situation?

I personally felt like an ‘educational mercenary’. The EMB hired me to do a job that they can’t do, so they pumped me full of ‘agent of change’ rhetoric and then put me into the schools.

With the school at the beginning, I used to feel a free hand in doing new things, making suggestions etc. and even initiating things on my own. . Now, (schools change and with a new principal, very much.) the principal is micromanaging me in the things he wants me to do. (Yes, he is a male principal) I’ve had a good rapport with him, but now I’m almost being told what to do. I am being told what to do!! (By the way, the term principal should really be changed to ‘principalcess’ or Head Mistress; the number of primary principals is overwhelmingly female in Hong Kong.)

This is not what the EMB advertised!! I need to be very political and it takes a lot of energy politically working around 2 employers and the wants of both.

Question: Do I want to place myself in this situation?

Wow!! Look at the money I will make!!

The Hong Kong dollar is pegged to the US dollar. The US is the largest market for Hong Kong products. Since 2003, the Canadian dollar exchange rate has fallen from 4.9 to 7.1 Hong Kong dollars. Interpretation: It takes 7.1 Hong Kong dollars to buy 1 Canadian dollar, now. It used to take only $4.9Hk to buy $1.00 Cdn. That is 2.2 divided by 7! By my calculator that is 31.47 % loss in salary. The Australian dollar is also losing value: $6.5 Hk buys $1.00 Aus, now. I’m not sure what it was in 2003. (Please check www. Oanda.com ) Other Asian economy exchange rates are rising in value. The Hong Kong dollar value to other currencies is falling and badly! And, financial advisors see this as a continuing trend following a low and declining US dollar value.

Question: Do I want to place myself in this situation?

Just a note for Canadians: There is a ‘white paper’ in Federal parliament that will make Canadians abroad pay Canadian percentage taxes!!!! That means that you will be paying your host countries taxes AND Canadian taxes. This will be for Canadian passport holders which is ALL of us!!! In essence, out taxes will no longer be based on residency but on citizenship (copied straight from the US!! But in the US, any money under $82,000 US is tax free. Not Canadians!!)

This is being prompted by Garth Turner, MP for Halton in Southern Ontario!!! This is an absolute outrage!! More information coming, but best to look up his telephone, fax number, email and address of his constituency office in Halton Region and Ottawa. Best to send your opinion in that order as a telephone call represents ‘x’ number of dissatisfied constituents, a fax is ‘x’ times 3, an email is ‘x’ times ?, a letter represents ‘x’ times ?, but much higher and the best of all is walking into his constituency office and telling him what you think.

Getting visas for teachers who would like to stay for a second contract or a third would be easy. You would think! Well, not so. There has been an ever increasing ‘Leave it to the last minute’ attitude where Chinese schools don’t have a PNET or SNET before the summer holidays. The result is a mad scramble in August and September. Not only is there a very late problem of interviewing and organizing a PNET or SNET, but also there are two other factors. Who is here coming back to Hong Kong on their own without a contract to come to and the second is it takes time 3-6 weeks for a Visa to be processed.

Who do you think will wait for the Visa? The school and the PNET or SNET will wait, but the school wants the PNET or SNET working at the school. The PNET is working without a visa!!! The school expects it. Immigration won’t allow it and it is an offense here to work without a visa. And, the EMB only recognizes the start date of the employment visa as the first day they will pay. Several teachers have reported working for up to 6 weeks without pay!!! The EMB denies it!

Do I want to set myself in this situation??

The EMB is very disorganized, out of touch and SLOW! There have been innumerable accounts of teachers who were successful in their interviews in February and March (a few years ago when they did them that early!) but decided not to come to Hong Kong. The reason? The contracts weren’t sent out by the EMB until June!!! No one can plan their international life at that late stage especially if you have children and schools to find.

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

Job satisfaction is generally limited in the PNET scheme. In some cases, job satisfaction never arrives and getting the salary at the end of the month doesn’t make up for it. There are some exceptions, however. Generally speaking, job satisfaction as in other countries is periodic and you shouldn’t think of job satisfaction as an attraction.

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

The pedagogy of the schools is probably 50 years behind what is being taught in your home country. Rote learning, text book opening and closing at the end of each period, the local teachers marking piles and piles of books each day. Really! Unbelievable amounts of marking for them. It is brainless tedium for them, but they do it.

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

The students’ parents are very powerful in Hong Kong education. In some, to most schools the administration has allowed the parents to have an office. What do they do there? I don’t know, but I think they think of ways to attack the administration and the teachers with complaints. In the school I teach in, when a complaint comes into the school from a parent, the teacher is hauled into the principal’s office and the complaint is put right at the teacher. Eg.1 ‘A parent thinks your teaching is too strict.’ (The teacher has 30 years teaching experience.) Eg. 2 ‘You are yelling too much at the students. The parents think you yell too much!’ The teacher has the worst behaved class in the school in a working class neighbourhood. The principal does not lead. He passes the criticism onto whomever, unedited!!

The latest is the school bus company that takes the children to and from school. This bus company has cancelled the contract with the school. Yes, the bus company initiated the cancellation! Why? Because the company was sick of dealing with the parents’ complaints about the buses! So, the contract will end because the principal will not lead and take the criticism!

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

Teaching is filled with people all day. But in Hong Kong, PNETS and SNETS teach alone. Maybe for you, you have taught in your home country or you have taught in institutes in other Asian countries, but you have always taught with other foreigners on a day to day basis. The other foreigners have there own classes but are teaching at the same school and share a common teachers’ room. Well, you teach alone in Hong Kong. One PNET and one SNET per school! Depending on the size of the school, 20-60 Chinese staff with an all student body anywhere from 300 to 1200 or more. The local teachers speak English and that is great, however after time, there is no ‘bandying around’, jokes to tell and stories to laugh at. That communication is so vital after awhile in a foreign culture. You are there, alone.

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

Class sizes are an issue. 40 students to a class (or just 2-3 less) is the norm for PNETs. I don’t know about SNETs. This is the issue between teachers, the Professional Teachers Union (PTU) and the EMB. It is not resolved and is on-going. I don’t know what the outcome will be. The PTU and teachers want 20-25 students per class, the EMB says there is no difference in teaching quality for students with smaller classes. You can see how far apart they are.

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

One of the things I noticed was the age of the other teachers when I arrived in the PNET Scheme. After teaching in other countries, the average age was 22 to maybe 30 or so. When I arrived here in Hong Kong, all the teachers seemed seasoned professionals from their home countries that had put in many, many years. My impression was that some of them had put in 30+ years in their home country and now wanted more money beyond their pension (double dip, so to speak). Others were retired and wanted to keep active. Others had children who had grown up and out of the house and it seemed like they used teaching in Hong Kong to get away from them. This was my initial impression. Since then, I think it is less pronounced. Or, I’ve aged! And, that is surely the truth! However, the teaching population seems much older.

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

Bringing your children to Hong Kong to attend primary or secondary school while you teach here is expensive! Someone with better figures on school tuition can say in more exact terms, but international schools charge between $5,000 -$8,000 Hk per month and the English School Foundation (ESF) schools charge more reasonably from $3,000 Hk + or - to about $5,000 Hk + or – a month in school fees. This does not include extras such as trips and other ‘essentials’ that the parents are expected to pay. The EMB does give a ‘Special Allowance’ which they say is for school expenses, but that is the housing allowance ‘gone taxable’ with the inclusion of ‘school expenses’. After the rent, there isn’t much left for school fees.

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

Everyone seems to have an opinion here. Every teacher feels they have to say something on this issue and that issue and be ‘snarky’ with others who don’t believe as they do. Be prepared to have others be negative and uncooperative at what you think is a ‘slam dunk’!

Do I want to set myself in this situation?

Try to make up your own mind. This is probably more difficult than you might think. You have probably read or thought that the teachers who wrote in are the ones with the bad schools and that is only what you will hear. Some truth to that! But, what is really ‘throwing’ is that you get teachers writing in saying its good, and that those people are negative and complainers and can’t adapt or have brought it on themselves. These are the people who were parachuted into the good schools and have no idea what it is like to have to deal with such unreasonable requests, personality problems and the loneliness of teaching in the Hong Kong educational system.

Back to that question: Do I want to set myself in this situation?

There are some things that can be done, however. There are some positive things that a person can do to shield themselves from the outside environment.

The first and most powerful is to ask yourself: Do I want to set myself in this situation?

Second, the school to which you will be assigned is like a falling parachute. Some people land at good schools and others will not. From there, maintaining an open mind, looking for the positives and listening to the LETs and administrators and trying to be flexible as to how education is taught in Hong Kong are all good ideas.

The question one last time: Do I want to set myself in this situation?

This is a mature question and needs to be asked if you are attempting to teach here. Reason it out, decide what you want. Reading this will prepare you more fully to answer this all important question.

So you see if you took the time to read it,nowhere in Asia are conditions ideal.It has a lot to do with the individual.

All the best to you.

Edited February 21, 2008 by Momo8

[Loaded]

Several deletions and holidays have been awarded.

not Benidorm I hope

[CosmicSurfer]

It’s very easy to criticise the English Language program in Thailand and the entire education system has its faults but I think that some of the condescending comments on this posting reflect more on the ignorance of the posters than the actual merits of the system itself.

....

The country needs new blood in the teaching profession and there are many dedicated professionals out there both Thailand foreign, who are aware of modern teaching methods and are intent on making a difference. Class-room culture needs to be changed and Thailand needs to be dragged kicking and screaming away from learning by rote into the modern world...nut at least people are trying to do something here.....professionals, not ignorant bystanders.

I strikes me that, as a dedicated professional that has been actually living and working here as an active teacher for the past 6 years, I have a clearer insight into the daily and on-going problems then those that comment from their safe and plush home environments

...

You state the obvious.. Everyone here knows this and has commented on it many times already... Flogging a dead horse, I think.

You need to get at the deeper root of the issues.. Why has there been no change?? What holds the country back?

You can bring all The Dedicated Professionals that you want from as many prestigious foreign Universities that Exist in the world.. It still won't change a thing. A Society that refuses to recognize it's need to change, can not change... WILL NOT CHANGE!!!... any more than a Junkie or Alcoholic can get help for their addictions without recognizing the fact that they do have a problem to begin with. This is complicated by the problems of Patronage and Corruption (which is actually the same problem.. one breeds the other, it's cyclical)

If the Thai People won't get Serious about 1st and Foremost DEMANDING Change, then the government will never implement change or Fund it... There is no Prestige and profit in it in the Short-Term.. and unfortunately the Thai system never looks at the the Long-Term.

The system has been far too successful in keeping the people ignorant of their own shortcomings and problems... Can you imagine what would happen to Thai society if all those Foreign educated Hi-So Sons and Daughters actually had to compete in the Thai labour Market with well-educated Lo-So colleagues.. Meritocracy just might supplant incompetency buttressed by Family connections and money as a basis for advancement.

As long as the Thai elites feed crap to the lower classes about how much better Thai society and culture is as compared to other cultures, as long as Thais believe that their government actually is functional, as long as they are kept in the dark about other countries, societies, systems and ways of life, as long as Thai's believe that Thailand is the center of the world and are never give any hope of advancement, any flame of knowledge, any avenue to escape the hypocrisy of their lives and to advance in the world, or even their own society, how can anyone expect that they can ever change. The Tool of Knowledge is the Key to change, advancement and a bright future.

The biggest hypocrisy is that in Thai society, the belief that helping others is the best way to make Merit and move up the evolutionary (societal) scale in the next life... When in practice, all that exists is the Abuse of Thai people by first their Elite Leaders, then by their governments and political parties, then by their Employers and finally by their own families.. Proof.. Look around at the filth and stench, the unsanitary and dangerous conditions that abound in everyday life.. The broken sidewalks, the hanging electrical wires, the inability to walk safely on the sidewalk due to motorcycle traffic and shopping or eating establishments, the unhealthy lifestyle, the pollution, the corruption, the Education System....

So for these reasons alone, change can never happen.

CS

[Loaded]

Maybe Thais don't want it to change.

Change is not positive in Thai culture as it causes waves and these may lead to friction or heaven forbid - confrontation.

I don't believe the hand that guides the country wants too much change. In fact, a self-sustaining agrian economy would be his ideal.

I certainly don't believe the government would ever want Thais to think critically and wake up to the theft of the wealth of this country.

Everyone's happy with pink-flower borders

[CosmicSurfer]

. People who are happy and contended with their jobs will always be a minority on a web board like this. They might not be a minority in real life.

How about.. They are too fearful of their next paycheck, or they just don't give a dam_n???

They have accepted the situation as it is, realized that they are helpless to change or fix it, and just want to get their salary and go home to get drunk or laid.

The few that actually care are too paranoid of their Visas, or quickly realize that they are banging their heads against a wall, so they too give up.

My excuse... I'm tired about keeping my mouth shut. I've had it. So it's time to vent.

As soon as I can, I'm taking my wife back to the real world..

If we have a kid there is NO WAY I want it raised or educated here.

Life is tough enough..

Let my kid come back here as an adult, with a Degree from a REAL university and speaking Fluent English, Thai and probably a 3rd language... and the possibility of a real future, with an advantage never available to the average Thai person...

the ability to think for him/herself.

CS

[Loaded]

. People who are happy and contended with their jobs will always be a minority on a web board like this. They might not be a minority in real life.

How about.. They are too fearful of their next paycheck, or they just don't give a dam_n???

They have accepted the situation as it is, realized that they are helpless to change or fix it, and just want to get their salary and go home to get drunk or laid.

The few that actually care are too paranoid of their Visas, or quickly realize that they are banging their heads against a wall, so they too give up.

My excuse... I'm tired about keeping my mouth shut. I've had it. So it's time to vent.

As soon as I can, I'm taking my wife back to the real world..

If we have a kid there is NO WAY I want it raised or educated here.

Life is tough enough..

Let my kid come back here as an adult, with a Degree from a REAL university and speaking Fluent English, Thai and probably a 3rd language... and the possibility of a real future, with an advantage never available to the average Thai person...

the ability to think for him/herself.

CS

jai yen

[KonKru]

Stop right there and think again where you are!

As long as the Ministry of Education in BKK says that every student has to get a pass

as long as he pays his school money, there won't be any improvment what so ever regarding

the education standard of Thai students.

This is most certainly supported by the Thai staff of the schools and it works perfect for everybody,

except for the poor kids, which will stay stupid and ignorant like their parents.

That's the way it is and farang hasn't got any chances to change anything about it, they simply

sack you if you don't apply to those rules.

SAD but true!

[CosmicSurfer]

Stop right there and think again where you are!

As long as the Ministry of Education in BKK says that every student has to get a pass

as long as he pays his school money, there won't be any improvment what so ever regarding

the education standard of Thai students.

This is most certainly supported by the Thai staff of the schools and it works perfect for everybody,

except for the poor kids, which will stay stupid and ignorant like their parents.

That's the way it is and farang hasn't got any chances to change anything about it, they simply

sack you if you don't apply to those rules.

SAD but true!

Right Problem.. Wrong Source.

It's not the MOE that requires a "Pass". It's the Parents!!!

Unfortunately, Thai Public and Private schools are all run as Profit making organizations, with Money as the prime motivating factor. For many reasons, mainly due to the underfunding of the Government, and the "Face" garnered to working for a prestigious school, Thai schools find themselves competing for the "Best" students.. and then charging appropriate "Fees" to let these students attend.

The use of Corruption (Tea Money) is rampant in attracting students, money that can not usually be matched by the poorer students in the surrounding area, so many students are Bussed in, and use accommodation addresses to circumvent the required residency laws.

And in return they promise the Parents a Top-Notch education, which is, of course, beyond their ability to provide, so in order to appease these "Paying" customers, and maintain their "Academic Reputation" they make sure Students ALL Pass. If they don't then they need to explain, Why Not? ... And then chance losing both their customer, and their reputation...

"No Child Left Behind." - Thai Style.

CS

[wilko]

It’s very easy to criticise the English Language program in Thailand and the entire education system has its faults but I think that some of the condescending comments on this posting reflect more on the ignorance of the posters than the actual merits of the system itself.

....

The country needs new blood in the teaching profession and there are many dedicated professionals out there both Thailand foreign, who are aware of modern teaching methods and are intent on making a difference. Class-room culture needs to be changed and Thailand needs to be dragged kicking and screaming away from learning by rote into the modern world...nut at least people are trying to do something here.....professionals, not ignorant bystanders.

I strikes me that, as a dedicated professional that has been actually living and working here as an active teacher for the past 6 years, I have a clearer insight into the daily and on-going problems then those that comment from their safe and plush home environments

...

You state the obvious.. Everyone here knows this and has commented on it many times already... Flogging a dead horse, I think.

You need to get at the deeper root of the issues.. Why has there been no change?? What holds the country back?

You can bring all The Dedicated Professionals that you want from as many prestigious foreign Universities that Exist in the world.. It still won't change a thing. A Society that refuses to recognize it's need to change, can not change... WILL NOT CHANGE!!!... any more than a Junkie or Alcoholic can get help for their addictions without recognizing the fact that they do have a problem to begin with. This is complicated by the problems of Patronage and Corruption (which is actually the same problem.. one breeds the other, it's cyclical)

If the Thai People won't get Serious about 1st and Foremost DEMANDING Change, then the government will never implement change or Fund it... There is no Prestige and profit in it in the Short-Term.. and unfortunately the Thai system never looks at the the Long-Term.

The system has been far too successful in keeping the people ignorant of their own shortcomings and problems... Can you imagine what would happen to Thai society if all those Foreign educated Hi-So Sons and Daughters actually had to compete in the Thai labour Market with well-educated Lo-So colleagues.. Meritocracy just might supplant incompetency buttressed by Family connections and money as a basis for advancement.

As long as the Thai elites feed crap to the lower classes about how much better Thai society and culture is as compared to other cultures, as long as Thais believe that their government actually is functional, as long as they are kept in the dark about other countries, societies, systems and ways of life, as long as Thai's believe that Thailand is the center of the world and are never give any hope of advancement, any flame of knowledge, any avenue to escape the hypocrisy of their lives and to advance in the world, or even their own society, how can anyone expect that they can ever change. The Tool of Knowledge is the Key to change, advancement and a bright future.

The biggest hypocrisy is that in Thai society, the belief that helping others is the best way to make Merit and move up the evolutionary (societal) scale in the next life... When in practice, all that exists is the Abuse of Thai people by first their Elite Leaders, then by their governments and political parties, then by their Employers and finally by their own families.. Proof.. Look around at the filth and stench, the unsanitary and dangerous conditions that abound in everyday life.. The broken sidewalks, the hanging electrical wires, the inability to walk safely on the sidewalk due to motorcycle traffic and shopping or eating establishments, the unhealthy lifestyle, the pollution, the corruption, the Education System....

So for these reasons alone, change can never happen.

CS

isn't this a variation on a bad workman blaming his own tools? Also this presumption of being the only person ever to teach seems a bit premature/immature to me.

[wangsuda]

Thailand has spent a lot of money and effort to employ native language speakers on the national English program....how many Brits/Aussies/ or Americans were taught any foreign language at school that featured a native speaker?

Perhaps not a native speaker, but one who was certainly fluent in a second language. In your aforementioned countries, people who major in a foreign language HAVE to be fluent in it. You cannot graduate with a degree in Spanish and not speak Spanish. In Thailand, you CAN graduate with a degree in English and not speak English. That makes it rather difficult to teach English. After all, how can you teach something you don't know? Hence, the need for native speakers of English.

[PeaceBlondie]

As usual, point well taken by Wangsuda. Primary teachers in the provinces of Thailand sometimes/often teach English with no training at all. Also, few teachers in Thailand are taught modern methods of how to teach.

[CosmicSurfer]

isn't this a variation on a bad workman blaming his own tools?

I think that the complete lack of any counter-argument from what is normally a very vocal group supports my position.

Tools don't, and won't, help when the basic material is rotten. Only a fresh approach does.

Also this presumption of being the only person ever to teach seems a bit premature/immature to me.

My only Presumption is that some posters may be applying less than informed suppositions to the purported facts.

I don't, and never would, make an assumption based on my experience... Only based on actual facts.

Again, lack of constructive critical argument from other experienced teachers only supports this.

Any edifying contribution that would serve to enlighten or present a countervailing view to the essence of the argument would be most welcome.

CS

Edited February 24, 2008 by CosmicSurfer

[CosmicSurfer]

As usual, point well taken by Wangsuda. Primary teachers in the provinces of Thailand sometimes/often teach English with no training at all. Also, few teachers in Thailand are taught modern methods of how to teach.

Most of them can teach "Grammar" quite well...

But only about 1% can teach "Conversation".. a skill that requires actually being able to converse yourself.

It's a Skill less then a few have actually experienced, let alone mastered.

CS

[whitevan73]

I spoke to two of my neices, who are both in thier late teens and are both studying in BKK (different schools) They both say the same thing to me, that they can not understand the native english teacher, that the teacher can not explain about grammar and how the launguage works compared to Thai. They find it frustrating and very boaring. How can a person teach a new language to a forigan national if that person does not speak Thai? I am sure that some people will take this the wrong way but i`m not wanting to offend, just a question i would like your opinion on.

Da