Are You Re-incarnated?

[Neeranam]

The question is, why are there more and more souls being reincarnated as people. Not enough room in animal and insect heaven?

People can't be incarnated as animals.

People can't be reincarnated at all.

who told you that?

[Thaifan2]

>>People can't be incarnated as animals.<<

I am not so sure about that !

[Heng]

The question is, why are there more and more souls being reincarnated as people. Not enough room in animal and insect heaven?

People can't be incarnated as animals.

People can't be reincarnated at all.

who told you that?

Fortune cookie.

[mark lamai]

"" Deja vu is cause by a sudden chemical imbalance in the body..."" endquote.

first academic rule,

never state a theory/hypothesis as a proven fact.

there has been going on in the academic world for a long time, the struggle between the "mechanists" (my term),

and the old style philosophers.

the mechanists are passionate about reducing and proving all human behaviour and consciuosness is due to, in effect, the chemistry/synapses etc within the brain.

this is a lovely road to travel because funding is easier and credibility relies on "proof".

in academic psychology, data is analysed, usually by SPSS program,

when they do this they drop off the top and bottom 5% because it considered too out of range.

which raises the question,

all psychology data/conclusions excludes this 10%,

errr ummmmm... what if the 10% forgotten is correct and the 90% used for conclusions is incorrect?

example:

nearly everyone agrees that instinct (e.g. the fight or flight response) exists and is a natural thing common to all people.

is this true?

it can be "proved" true via testing as above.

does that make it true?

No.

anyhow the mechanists are pretty much winning (started with Mr. Darwin),

so i await the mechanist's answer to the question "what is consciousness?"

[Neeranam]

so i await the mechanist's answer to the question "what is consciousness?"

So do I!

Will any mechanics admit to being one?

[Robski]

"" Deja vu is cause by a sudden chemical imbalance in the body..."" endquote.

first academic rule,

never state a theory/hypothesis as a proven fact.

Oooooh a smartass, I wonder what you were in your previous life?

A guy that gets drunk and picks up a ladyboy, loses his wallet and gets beaten up. (by his own admission)

trying to tell me about perception and teach us a lesson on conciousness

Did I say "proven fact"? No I didn't.

Pehaps you could offer us something more plausible than your 'fairy magic until proven otherwise' argument.

Certainly my proposition has more crediblity and is at least tangible enough to be put to the test.

I guess we could all sit around waiting for god to prove otherwise...

Edited February 24, 2008 by Robski

[kat]

"" Deja vu is cause by a sudden chemical imbalance in the body..."" endquote.

first academic rule,

never state a theory/hypothesis as a proven fact.

there has been going on in the academic world for a long time, the struggle between the "mechanists" (my term),

and the old style philosophers.

the mechanists are passionate about reducing and proving all human behaviour and consciuosness is due to, in effect, the chemistry/synapses etc within the brain.

this is a lovely road to travel because funding is easier and credibility relies on "proof".

in academic psychology, data is analysed, usually by SPSS program,

when they do this they drop off the top and bottom 5% because it considered too out of range.

which raises the question,

all psychology data/conclusions excludes this 10%,

errr ummmmm... what if the 10% forgotten is correct and the 90% used for conclusions is incorrect?

example:

nearly everyone agrees that instinct (e.g. the fight or flight response) exists and is a natural thing common to all people.

is this true?

it can be "proved" true via testing as above.

does that make it true?

No.

anyhow the mechanists are pretty much winning (started with Mr. Darwin),

so i await the mechanist's answer to the question "what is consciousness?"

"" Deja vu is cause by a sudden chemical imbalance in the body..."" endquote.

first academic rule,

never state a theory/hypothesis as a proven fact.

Oooooh a smartass, I wonder what you were in your previous life?

A guy that gets drunk and picks up a ladyboy, loses his wallet and gets beaten up. (by his own admission)

trying to tell me about perception and teach us a lesson on conciousness

Did I say "proven fact"? No I didn't.

Pehaps you could offer us something more plausible than your 'fairy magic until proven otherwise' argument.

Certainly my proposition has more crediblity and is at least tangible enough to be put to the test.

I guess we could all sit around waiting for god to prove otherwise...

One has to wonder: why the need for a personal attack? I think Mark Lamai made very relevant points, without stooping to personal insults.

[garro]

I find that it is often people who have the least knowledge about scientific methodology who are the most forceful in their discrediting of things which they view as unscientific. It is impossible to disprove reincarnation/rebirth through science and to just dismiss it as a belief for the 'weak' seems a bit narrow-minded to me. I'm not sure about rebirth/reincarnation, but it makes sense to me.

[kat]

I agree with you Garro.

[goldfish]

Buddhism is a crock.

Re-incarnation even moreso.

A crutch for the weak.

The Dalai Lama weak?

[dominator]

The question is, why are there more and more souls being reincarnated as people. Not enough room in animal and insect heaven?

People can't be incarnated as animals.

People can't be reincarnated at all.

Of course people can reincarnate. I was once an English man living in Englands green and pleasent lands.

[Heng]

I find that it is often people who have the least knowledge about scientific methodology who are the most forceful in their discrediting of things which they view as unscientific. It is impossible to disprove reincarnation/rebirth through science and to just dismiss it as a belief for the 'weak' seems a bit narrow-minded to me. I'm not sure about rebirth/reincarnation, but it makes sense to me.

I don't consider religion for the weak minded just because a particular facet of it cannot be proved. And it's certainly not for the weak minded across the entire spectrum as some kind of broad generalization either. I consider it for the weak when people abandon their responsibilities for religion and place their faith in the unproven and unsubstantiated to see them through difficult situations AND not doing anything else about it because they are either too lazy or too afraid to. In application, this translates into people making merit and wishing for things (without making any effort other than the wish itself to make that come true). And yes, I do realize that the whole wish thing isn't pure form religion, but the practice permeates the practice of religion worldwide (whether you're asking God or Allah for something, or hoping to trade Red Fanta at the local shrine or rice into a monks bowl in exchange for a lottery win, or becoming a monk so your parents go to heaven, etc.). Now for folks that actually draw strength from it and apply it to something, then it's not weak at all. It's as harmless (or beneficial) as any other hobby.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Heng

[camerata]

But I do feel more at home here in Issaan than anywhere else on this planet.

Anyone else withy similar feelings out here?

Yes, but I think it is deja-vu rather than reincarnation. We experience a place/atmosphere we like and the subconscious sends an errant "I've been here before" signal to the conscious. Perhaps the real message from the subconscious is "I should stay here" or "I should come back here" ("because I like it").

If Hindu-style reincarnation really took place, one would expect to get flashes of very unpleasant memories from previous lives - perhaps even the moment of our previous death - as bad memories tend to dominate. Also, assuming these memories are hidden in our subconscious, one would expect them to surface when other long-dormant memories do - during sleep and meditation. But in my experience they don't.

[Neeranam]

If Hindu-style reincarnation really took place, one would expect to get flashes of very unpleasant memories from previous lives - perhaps even the moment of our previous death - as bad memories tend to dominate. Also, assuming these memories are hidden in our subconscious, one would expect them to surface when other long-dormant memories do - during sleep and meditation. But in my experience they don't.

You are not meditating properly - get a good teacher and you can experience past memories from other lives.

[Robski]

"" Deja vu is cause by a sudden chemical imbalance in the body..."" endquote.

first academic rule,

never state a theory/hypothesis as a proven fact.

there has been going on in the academic world for a long time, the struggle between the "mechanists" (my term),

and the old style philosophers.

the mechanists are passionate about reducing and proving all human behaviour and consciuosness is due to, in effect, the chemistry/synapses etc within the brain.

this is a lovely road to travel because funding is easier and credibility relies on "proof".

in academic psychology, data is analysed, usually by SPSS program,

when they do this they drop off the top and bottom 5% because it considered too out of range.

which raises the question,

all psychology data/conclusions excludes this 10%,

errr ummmmm... what if the 10% forgotten is correct and the 90% used for conclusions is incorrect?

example:

nearly everyone agrees that instinct (e.g. the fight or flight response) exists and is a natural thing common to all people.

is this true?

it can be "proved" true via testing as above.

does that make it true?

No.

anyhow the mechanists are pretty much winning (started with Mr. Darwin),

so i await the mechanist's answer to the question "what is consciousness?"

"" Deja vu is cause by a sudden chemical imbalance in the body..."" endquote.

first academic rule,

never state a theory/hypothesis as a proven fact.

Oooooh a smartass, I wonder what you were in your previous life?

A guy that gets drunk and picks up a ladyboy, loses his wallet and gets beaten up. (by his own admission)

trying to tell me about perception and teach us a lesson on conciousness

Did I say "proven fact"? No I didn't.

Pehaps you could offer us something more plausible than your 'fairy magic until proven otherwise' argument.

Certainly my proposition has more crediblity and is at least tangible enough to be put to the test.

I guess we could all sit around waiting for god to prove otherwise...

One has to wonder: why the need for a personal attack? I think Mark Lamai made very relevant points, without stooping to personal insults.

Are you stalking me Kat?

At least I say what I have to in public where it can be responded too instead of doing all my dirty work via personal messages Kat.

Who is attacking who here Kat, are you trying to make this personal again?

If you don't like what I say take some of your own advice and ignore it.

Mark Lamai made very relevant points? Did you actually read the nonsense he wrote?

A man with very poor judgement himself trying to discredit Darwin

[Robski]

I find that it is often people who have the least knowledge about scientific methodology who are the most forceful in their discrediting of things which they view as unscientific. It is impossible to disprove reincarnation/rebirth through science and to just dismiss it as a belief for the 'weak' seems a bit narrow-minded to me. I'm not sure about rebirth/reincarnation, but it makes sense to me.

I don't consider religion for the weak minded just because a particular facet of it cannot be proved. And it's certainly not for the weak minded across the entire spectrum as some kind of broad generalization either. I consider it for the weak when people abandon their responsibilities for religion and place their faith in the unproven and unsubstantiated to see them through difficult situations AND not doing anything else about it because they are either too lazy or too afraid to. In application, this translates into people making merit and wishing for things (without making any effort other than the wish itself to make that come true). And yes, I do realize that the whole wish thing isn't pure form religion, but the practice permeates the practice of religion worldwide (whether you're asking God or Allah for something, or hoping to trade Red Fanta at the local shrine or rice into a monks bowl in exchange for a lottery win, or becoming a monk so your parents go to heaven, etc.). Now for folks that actually draw strength from it and apply it to something, then it's not weak at all. It's as harmless (or beneficial) as any other hobby.

Well said Heng.

I agree that spirituality/belief has it's place, if you look at the world as a chessboard where family and community are the two dimensions and proscribe your movement and position in the world, spirituality gives the world a third dimension with which you can lift yourself above the mundane and view life in a different light.

However the weight of evidence is with the scientific view of life and even though it may seem clinical and mundane and is not complete, to say that a belief cannot be proven to be false and therefore is a credible counter to scientific fact is a extremely bias and rather furtive argument.

Yes I would like to believe, surely we would all like to think that our 70 years is not all we get.

[camerata]

If Hindu-style reincarnation really took place, one would expect to get flashes of very unpleasant memories from previous lives - perhaps even the moment of our previous death - as bad memories tend to dominate. Also, assuming these memories are hidden in our subconscious, one would expect them to surface when other long-dormant memories do - during sleep and meditation. But in my experience they don't.

You are not meditating properly - get a good teacher and you can experience past memories from other lives.

I was referring to the deja-vu experiences of the average person. If they are able to experience conscious memories from a past life, they should occasionally also have those memories when dreaming or doing any kind of meditation. When meditating, it's common to find the mind resisting the desired concentration by throwing up long-dormant memories.

Attaining the 4th jhana and "reading past lives" after 10 or 20 years of meditation is another matter. AFAIK, those "memories" are not experienced in normal consciousness. But the problem is the same - how does anyone know if those memories are real or a construction of the mind?

[camerata]

In his debunking-the-bullshit book, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, Carl Sagan suggested more investigation should be done into the phenomenon of young children's memories of past lives because there wasn't any rational explanation for it.

Since then there has been quite a lot of research done by a Dr Ian Stevenson. I've only seen summaries of his work, but it would probably be good reading for anyone with an interest in reincarnation.

A Thai friend of mine has a daughter who at age 3 announced that she had lived in the UK in a previous life and gave some details. The interesting thing is she insisted on speaking English as her mother-tongue and spoke it fluently at quite an early age, even though she has never been out of Thailand.

[Robski]

A Thai friend of mine has a daughter who at age 3 announced that she had lived in the UK in a previous life and gave some details. The interesting thing is she insisted on speaking English as her mother-tongue and spoke it fluently at quite an early age, even though she has never been out of Thailand.

Interesting, I would assume that the girl had been in the company of English speakers for some time,

taking an interest in not only a different language but also some of the more often quoted details.

If she had never been in the company of English speakers then that would be truly remarkable.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Robski

[misterman21]

im out to lunch on this ,never had feelings that i've live another life ,but i do believe were here more than once.......

Surely you have another life outside of this forum - perhaps not

[Neeranam]

When at HH the Dalai Lamas home in 1992, there was a Spanish boy about 6 years old who did some tests poving he was a lama in a previous life.

Attaining th4th jhana and "reading past lives" after 10 or 20 years of meditation is another matter.e

What's that?

[freitag1]

I must have been a prick before. I brought a lot of bad karma with me.

[camerata]

Interesting, I would assume that the girl had been in the company of English speakers for some time,

Apparently none of the family had a connection with England or had talked about being there. But I don't really know the details. The experience does seem to have prompted her to choose English as her mother-tongue. She's at an international school now and has to take lessons to improve her Thai language.

[Robski]

No disrepect intended, but if you did know the details it would be an interesting point and not hearsay.

Pehaps she just finds English easier to understand and communicate with, a German/Thai couple that are friends of mine in Koh Chang have two children that speak German and Thai proficiently and English remarkably well, but the younger of the two finds Thai scipt unfathomable.

There are cases in Finland for example where many children that were considered autistic were actually unable to understand the language.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Robski

[Zpete]

When touring Europe, for 1st time, I seemed to know lots of places I had never been to.

Knew what was around the next corner.

It was all in the Netherlands, Amsterdam in particular.

Most uncanny, I may have been Rembrandt....... or a guard in "Night Watch"

Next reincarnation, I wanna be a BOAR.

(I fantasize about 30 minute orgasms)

[camerata]

No disrepect intended, but if you did know the details it would be an interesting point and not hearsay.

Well, it's always hearsay, isn't it? Even if I was her father, it's unlikely I could guarantee she had never heard something on the radio or TV that had prompted the experience. What's interesting to me is that the experience - according to her mother - had a profound effect on her life. Even with a mostly secular upbringing and Christian schools, she is sure about the reality of rebirth.

[Robski]

As I said above without details it is hearsay, with details it would be an interesting story worthy of further investigation, if it turned out that the girl had never had any contact with English speakers it would be truly remarkable.

As it stands it proves nothing regardless how convinced her mother is, perhaps you could look further into it.

However, as much as I appreciate the role of spirituality, I would say that on the balance of probability this story constitutes nothing more than a spiritual explaination for a more worldly occurence. A case of it being what you choose to believe.

[chutai]

In Buddhism there is concept of reinacarnation as reincarnation suggests that life force infuses form. But form always has life force so the term is misleading. In short, Buddhism do not believe that consciousness is in any way independent of physical existence. For this reason there are no ghosts in Buddhism either, there is no sense of a consciousness without form.

Hope that this helps.

[camerata]

As it stands it proves nothing regardless how convinced her mother is, perhaps you could look further into it.

I didn't say it proved anything, just that it was interesting. It would be impossible now after 10 years to know with any certainty what really happened (or didn't happen).

[camerata]

When at HH the Dalai Lamas home in 1992, there was a Spanish boy about 6 years old who did some tests poving he was a lama in a previous life.

I guess this depends on what standards you set as proof. What proof was there in this case - selecting the former lama's personal posessions?

Attaining th4th jhana and "reading past lives" after 10 or 20 years of meditation is another matter.e

What's that?

The jhanas (Skt: dhyanas) are four distinct levels of meditative absorbtion. In the Theravada tradition you can only read past lives after attaining the 4th level. This was true even of the Buddha on the night of his enlightenment. But this is a specific type of meditation that takes years to master.