Government Officials And Their 'tea Money!'

[tartempion]

Hi Folks,

I'm currently being subtly pressured for tea money to get a retirement extension by the immigration office at Mae Sai. They want me to show a 40k baht per month income plus 800k in the bank. The 800k is, by law, enough. Even though I've been lucky enough to get the 40k a month income and have the papers to prove it, I believe the guys at Mae Sai will find a reason to deny me the visa to get their tea money. My only hope of getting past these crooks is a phone call from Suan Phlu setting them straight. But the problem with that is getting someone to answer the phone in Bangkok and connecting me with the official high enough to tell these guys to back off. I got the feeling when I went to Suan Phlu with this problem a month ago that they didn't want to be bothered by a small faraway problem like mine. In the end I may be forced to pay the tea money to get the retirement extension. Is paying a bribe illegal? I would think so.

Joe Joe

Why didn't they give you a ret. ext.at Suan Phlu?

I showed a certificate from my embassy stating pension of 65k+ and some money in the bank, piece of cake.

But I went to Suan Phlu 8 Feb to ask for a certificate of residence, office 205 or 206? and was told that would take one month?

I walked away, was this a hint for tea money?

Last year in Amphur Nong Han I went to get a drivers license with int. DL.

Can't do I was told unless I paid 1k baht.

Went to car registration Nong Sung outside Udon town to change registration from Chumpon to Udon prov.

Was told the original Toyota Vigo tyres were not "approved", cost 500B tea money to get over the issue

Etc

[IMA_FARANG]

I tend to take a philosophical view of this old custom where you once paid for all bureaucratic dealings, if I get good polite service without any agro' I will sometimes (more often than not) pass a couple of 100 over the counter as a sign of thanks. Remember these people are very lowly paid.

The practice hangs on in spite of the so-called attempts to stamp it out. It is engrained in Thai society, and I don't think it will ever really be abolished.

Remember that the officials are usually poorly paid and often overworked. How would you like it to have to listen to complaints all day to earn your living. No wonder you would be willing to get a little "courtesy" from someone to do what they wanted.

However, it isn't right to demand that "tea money" be paid just for normal service.

Some years ago, a Thai friend of mine had a small coffe shop/food shop catering mainly to Thais. They were open until 1 or 2 am. Sometines, with alchohol being served, there were problems.

At the time the local police in that area had only one motorcycle for the entire police station. That meant it was often impossible for them to respond to calls for help as quickly as they wanted to.

The local police chief went around to all the shopowners asking them to contribute to a fund to buy them anonther motorcycle (since it was clear they weren't about to get one from the government).

His rationale was that they needed that motorcycle to do their job properly...and they really were dedicated to responding and doing their job...so the shopowners who contributed to the fund would get quicker service and a quicker response. It wasn't that the police captain was unwilling to do his job, it was just that those that helped him to do his job properly would get the best service when it was required. Those who didn't want (or couldn't) help him do his job would just have to wait.

A true Thai solution to a problem that helped those who were willing to help with the solution.

Never be too quick to criticise based upon Farang perceptions and standards. Often the solution is based on Thai perspective and standards.

[greenmember]

But I went to Suan Phlu 8 Feb to ask for a certificate of residence, office 205 or 206? and was told that would take one month?

I walked away, was this a hint for tea money?

==============================================

I don't think so.

[Joe Joe]

Hi Folks,

I'm currently being subtly pressured for tea money to get a retirement extension by the immigration office at Mae Sai. They want me to show a 40k baht per month income plus 800k in the bank. The 800k is, by law, enough. Even though I've been lucky enough to get the 40k a month income and have the papers to prove it, I believe the guys at Mae Sai will find a reason to deny me the visa to get their tea money. My only hope of getting past these crooks is a phone call from Suan Phlu setting them straight. But the problem with that is getting someone to answer the phone in Bangkok and connecting me with the official high enough to tell these guys to back off. I got the feeling when I went to Suan Phlu with this problem a month ago that they didn't want to be bothered by a small faraway problem like mine. In the end I may be forced to pay the tea money to get the retirement extension. Is paying a bribe illegal? I would think so.

Joe Joe

Why didn't they give you a ret. ext.at Suan Phlu?

I showed a certificate from my embassy stating pension of 65k+ and some money in the bank, piece of cake.

But I went to Suan Phlu 8 Feb to ask for a certificate of residence, office 205 or 206? and was told that would take one month?

I walked away, was this a hint for tea money?

Last year in Amphur Nong Han I went to get a drivers license with int. DL.

Can't do I was told unless I paid 1k baht.

Went to car registration Nong Sung outside Udon town to change registration from Chumpon to Udon prov.

Was told the original Toyota Vigo tyres were not "approved", cost 500B tea money to get over the issue

Etc

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't get the ret. ext. because my 800k hadn't been in the bank for 3 months yet.

Joe Joe

[lopburi3]

Perhaps the 40k was what they wanted to see to allow you to obtain extension without the 3 months of 800k deposit?

[Joe Joe]

Perhaps the 40k was what they wanted to see to allow you to obtain extension without the 3 months of 800k deposit?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No....Not even close. I wasn't trying to get the extension at Suan Phlu. I wanted Suan Phlu to inform the Mae Sai office that I didn't need 40k per month income plus 800k in the bank. I'm sure that the guys at Mae Sai know that 800k in the bank is enough. That is why I smell tea money.

[lopburi3]

My comment was that perhaps Mae Sai was unable to provide using 800k because you did not have the required 3 months and as an alternative suggested that that could provide approval if you could show income of 40k (and thus avoid the three month rule).

[Joe Joe]

My comment was that perhaps Mae Sai was unable to provide using 800k because you did not have the required 3 months and as an alternative suggested that that could provide approval if you could show income of 40k (and thus avoid the three month rule).

Long before I had 800k in the bank I asked Mae Sai what papers, photos, information they would want from me when I applied for the retirement extension. That is when they demanded 40k per month income plus 800k in the bank. When I told them that I only had 30k per month income they shrugged their shoulders and walked away.

[crab]

I've no idea whether the situation has changed or not, but two years the Immigration officers in Phuket had little calendars with V-shaped bases on their counter. It was made quite clear that the insertion of currency into the V-space (typically 500 or 1000 baht) was a required formality prior to the completion of any transaction.

I was certainly faced with no such issue at Soi Suan Plu when obtaining my retirement extension; but next week I shall be seeking a certificate of residency. Here's hoping.

[Tyke]

I also find it hard to believe the mentality of some people.

Complain about the politics of the place then condone similar behavour from lesser officials. Where do you think acceptance of this behaviour originates?

Illegal bribes should never be paid, just to make your life a little bit easier. Knowing how this country works you must get your affairs in good order and have ample time to achieve eash process. It will then work without any 'tea money' (awfully shameful name for an illegal and corrupt process).

Recently the missus sold some land in Nakon .... One of the head land office guys is notoriosly corrupt, and actually told my missus that she must give the underlings some cash, or else. He was rude and indignant about it, shouting at her in full view of others. Of course, she didn't pay, and she escalated the matter thus giving him a problem. When she goes back to sell some more land in future I'm sure that they won't like her, and will try to obstruct her in every way they can. When this happens we will again escalate it to higher and higher athorities until it is dealt with correctly. If everyone acted in this socially and legally responsible manner then Thai society would have some chance of developing in a way that benefits normal citizens rather than selfish and corrupt scum bags.

Just my thoughts.

I completely agree - the farangs that complain about not being able to do anything in Thailand without bribing people, then going ahead and bribing them (ESPECIALLY up front and in situations that are not that critical) is despicable. I've been living in Thailand for about 4 years now and have never been asked for a bribe. I've heard of people bribing officials at Suan Phlu with cold drinks and a few other stupid things just to jump the queue and it makes me sick. I have been in situations where a bit of tea money might have been helpful but have resisted the temptation and am willing to suffer the consequences and sleep better for it.

I get the impression that a lot of this bribing goes on in small offices up country - but not necessarily in main offices like Suan Phlu - so why don't these jokers change their office of application to the main ones? Also if a charge is made and it is not clear if it is official payment or a bribe then insist on a receipt - if they refuse then it is a bribe and demand the money back. Also u could take in a voice recorder in your pocket - any demand can then be played back in their faces and that should make sure that the ones responsible never asks for one again on repeat runs.

To say there is no way out of bribes is exactly what many farangs complain about with Thais - but farangs are supposed to be thinking individuals - so get around them.

Now having said all that, I am quite understanding of someone who has committed a serious mistake or crime or whatever and can get off with a bribe. It doesn't excuse that person and it wouldn't be right but I would understand the overwhelming temptation to get out of such a situation cleanly. It's all this petty unnecessary bribe shit from complaining farangs that gets me.

[Phil Conners]

Recently the missus sold some land in Nakon .... One of the head land office guys is notoriosly corrupt, and actually told my missus that she must give the underlings some cash, or else. He was rude and indignant about it, shouting at her in full view of others. Of course, she didn't pay, and she escalated the matter thus giving him a problem. When she goes back to sell some more land in future I'm sure that they won't like her, and will try to obstruct her in every way they can. When this happens we will again escalate it to higher and higher athorities until it is dealt with correctly. If everyone acted in this socially and legally responsible manner then Thai society would have some chance of developing in a way that benefits normal citizens rather than selfish and corrupt scum bags.

True, but it's not always clear who are the higher authority.

My husband said yesterday that you must drop the word "tea money". They now use the term "doo lair"

I though doo lair meant bullshit?

[cclub75]

When she goes back to sell some more land in future I'm sure that they won't like her, and will try to obstruct her in every way they can. When this happens we will again escalate it to higher and higher athorities until it is dealt with correctly. If everyone acted in this socially and legally responsible manner then Thai society would have some chance of developing in a way that benefits normal citizens rather than selfish and corrupt scum bags.

Wrong. You assume that the higher levels are "clean". And that it's enough to go up, to solve the issue. That's a fundamental mistake.

All levels, from the super low to the highest (I repeat the highest...) are corrupted. Only the amounts change.

Therefore, this little game has little chance to pay.

It's very unlikely that an officer will punish low level civil servants under his control for "tea money". For 2 reasons : loss of face, and of course because he's taking tea money himself !

I mean guys, in Thailand, police officers who commit all kind of crimes and felonies are just "transfered"... So tea money...

[thaikahuna]

Hi Folks,

I'm currently being subtly pressured for tea money to get a retirement extension by the immigration office at Mae Sai. They want me to show a 40k baht per month income plus 800k in the bank. The 800k is, by law, enough. Even though I've been lucky enough to get the 40k a month income and have the papers to prove it, I believe the guys at Mae Sai will find a reason to deny me the visa to get their tea money. My only hope of getting past these crooks is a phone call from Suan Phlu setting them straight. But the problem with that is getting someone to answer the phone in Bangkok and connecting me with the official high enough to tell these guys to back off. I got the feeling when I went to Suan Phlu with this problem a month ago that they didn't want to be bothered by a small faraway problem like mine. In the end I may be forced to pay the tea money to get the retirement extension. Is paying a bribe illegal? I would think so.

Joe Joe

You are right about the fact that the folks in Bangkok don't care about the issues in Mae Sai. Like the U.S. TV commercial - What happens in Mae Sai, stays in Mae Sai. Bangkok has enough issues. At least in BKK you should be in and out with your retirement extension in less than a half hour. The 800K in the bank more than satifies the requirement. The fact they wanted you to have 40K per month is (IMHO) a local interpretation of the rules.

If you get mouthy with these folks they can AND WILL make your life hel_l. So just smile and move along and be ready to go to BKK to renew your visa. If BKK asks why you are coming to Bangkok to renew, tell them politely that you were not getting good service there.

[chrisartist]

She was asking for a bribe. Bribery is illegal, even in Thailand. Next time, carry a switched-on tape recorder in your pocket. Once you have the evidence, make a copy, take it to your lawyer, and then call the police.

[Martin]

Nick's OP surprised me in that he describes such an unsubtle 'observation' by the woman official.

On the general topic of "Corruption and Democracy in Thailand", Pongpaichit and Piriyarangsan did some research and published a book with that title in 1994.

They report attitudes to 'passing money over to speed things up' that range from from 'gift of good will' (sin nam jai), to 'tea money' (kha nam ron), to 'dishonest in duty' (thut jarit to nathi), to 'bribery' (sin bon), to 'extortion' (rit thai), to 'corruption' (khorrapchan).

Even back then, just over half of their respondents classed it as 'bribery', with nearly a quarter calling it something less bad and nearly a quarter calling it worse.

If their work has been updated, I would be interested to read of it.

Equally, I would like to hear of examinations of the relationships between Amphur officials and their clients from the villages.

[AsiaCheese]

Hi Folks,

I'm currently being subtly pressured for tea money to get a retirement extension by the immigration office at Mae Sai. They want me to show a 40k baht per month income plus 800k in the bank. The 800k is, by law, enough. Even though I've been lucky enough to get the 40k a month income and have the papers to prove it, I believe the guys at Mae Sai will find a reason to deny me the visa to get their tea money. My only hope of getting past these crooks is a phone call from Suan Phlu setting them straight. But the problem with that is getting someone to answer the phone in Bangkok and connecting me with the official high enough to tell these guys to back off. I got the feeling when I went to Suan Phlu with this problem a month ago that they didn't want to be bothered by a small faraway problem like mine. In the end I may be forced to pay the tea money to get the retirement extension. Is paying a bribe illegal? I would think so.

Joe Joe

There might just be this other govt. agency that could help you: isn't there an Anti-Corruption Office in Bangkok somewhere, interested in stuff like this?? Albeit -- might have uncool consequences for you too (even if the tea money collector is removed, there's still those other guys in that office...)

[SirDougless]

Like it or not 'tea money/bribe' seems to be the norm when dealing with government officials. It certainly speeds up the process and can get 'deficiencies' overlooked. My wife needed a document at her local Amphur and for 500 THB we just walked up to the desk with the biggest chair and were dealt with quickly. Money well spent IMHO. When we got married I only had a 'certified by a JP copy of my divorce certificate' (a legal document in Aus). Not good enough for Thailand, but 'tea money' took care of the problem. When we got legally married 'tea money' made sure the whole process was completed in 30 minutes. I saw other couples in the Amphur who were waiting when we walked in and were still waiting when we walked out.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do ...

[lopburi3]

This is not Rome and in my experience bribes/tea money is not paid by most Thai for normal service.

[Tyke]

Like it or not 'tea money/bribe' seems to be the norm when dealing with government officials. It certainly speeds up the process and can get 'deficiencies' overlooked. My wife needed a document at her local Amphur and for 500 THB we just walked up to the desk with the biggest chair and were dealt with quickly. Money well spent IMHO. When we got married I only had a 'certified by a JP copy of my divorce certificate' (a legal document in Aus). Not good enough for Thailand, but 'tea money' took care of the problem. When we got legally married 'tea money' made sure the whole process was completed in 30 minutes. I saw other couples in the Amphur who were waiting when we walked in and were still waiting when we walked out.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do ...

It's the paying of bribes by people like you that make honest people have to wait. Hope you sleep well at nights. Bribes are not normal here - I've never been asked for one in 4 years I've lived here - only when the officials see a joker walking in the office does it become the norm.

[MJo]

It's the paying of bribes by people like you that make honest people have to wait. Hope you sleep well at nights. Bribes are not normal here - I've never been asked for one in 4 years I've lived here - only when the officials see a joker walking in the office does it become the norm.

I assume you have someone local, wife perhaps, doing this stuff for you with immigration and others...

And not to worry, give it another 4 years and you start to recognize the requests

But seriously, usually they don't ask directly and just expect you to "get it" and give them something. Sometimes it helps when you act like the clueless farang they expect you to be and you get the same good service without paying any extra...

There is another thread going on for tipping where people are telling how one should always pay extra "tip" even when the service is just "normal". Excuse me if this is off topic but what is the difference when giving extra money as tip to you security guards than giving some extra as tea money to you local police chief ?

I mean both are getting paid to provide security and other services to you... Should tipping be illegal as well?

[jitagon]

Our local immigration office will make life as difficult for you as possible - until you get the hint and pay up. Good for the posters who pointed out that those who do pay make life much more difficult for the rest of us.

On the other hand, our local drivers licensing centre for the past few years, flat out refuse any bribes. I think it started with an initiative by Thaksin re threats to government officials they will get the chop if found accepting money under the table. (I know, I get the irony ...) Why it worked spectacularly for one department and not the other defeats me.

I recently had a conversation with a Thai businessman who had had an order for something from the local police station. The policeman in charge asked him 'You are the businessman, I am the policeman, who do you think is the rich man?'.

As some other posters have stated, most government offices now will go about their work without bribery. Let's all do our bit to make Thailand a better place for ourselves and the Thais.

[jstumbo]

When we got legally married 'tea money' made sure the whole process was completed in 30 minutes. I saw other couples in the Amphur who were waiting when we walked in and were still waiting when we walked out.

Yes, they were still there, because they had to keep waiting longer than their turn because guys like you kept coming in and jumping the line by offering bribes.

[Briggsy]

If I've learnt anything from this thread, it is to get all visa extensions from Bangkok if possible. As for Amphoe business, well, good luck and try to look influential.

[LPCustom69]

This is not Rome and in my experience bribes/tea money is not paid by most Thai for normal service.

I agree, but perhaps it is due to the sheer number, and "quality" of the farangs entering within the last 3 years or so?

[jasreeve17]

When she goes back to sell some more land in future I'm sure that they won't like her, and will try to obstruct her in every way they can. When this happens we will again escalate it to higher and higher athorities until it is dealt with correctly. If everyone acted in this socially and legally responsible manner then Thai society would have some chance of developing in a way that benefits normal citizens rather than selfish and corrupt scum bags.

Wrong. You assume that the higher levels are "clean". And that it's enough to go up, to solve the issue. That's a fundamental mistake.

All levels, from the super low to the highest (I repeat the highest...) are corrupted. Only the amounts change.

Therefore, this little game has little chance to pay.

It's very unlikely that an officer will punish low level civil servants under his control for "tea money". For 2 reasons : loss of face, and of course because he's taking tea money himself !

I mean guys, in Thailand, police officers who commit all kind of crimes and felonies are just "transfered"... So tea money...

I never assume that higher levels are clean - look at Samak / MrT... What I do presume is that the people higher up have more to lose, are more visible, are more aware of Thai law and the penalties (cost to them...) for breaking it.

You suggest that 'this little game has little chance to pay.' That's just a ridiculous comment. It's not a little game, it's me adhering to the local laws.

With regard to an update to this particular office; unbeknown to me the very day that I wrote my original comment the missus popped back to her village to get some medicine for her mother, and to go back to the land office. She told me that the previous boss and several of his deputies had been replaced. Now the whole atmosphere of the office has changed and the 'corrupt' nature of their dealings seems to have evaporated. For how long I don't know, but it's a start.

The posters that insist that Thailand only works because you 'greese the wheels...' 'it will never change...' seem to be very much out of touch with what the majority of people in this country want and are striving for. We all have a social responsibility to make people ashamed of this attitude and change the place for the better. If not for your self then for the sake of your children.

OK, I'm being over dramatic, but the point stands.

Most Thais are honest and decent, and hate bribes / tea money / corruption / lies etc. It's a shame that so many on Thaivisa seem to have lesser values and only see what they read in the Bangkok Post.

[selftaopath]

As you don't have to go back just let the old cow stew.

He probably will need the 'old cow' again as the Amphur is the place which issues various official documents.

Better not be in their black books it is not worth the possible aggravation later on when he will need a certificate of some sort.

This is an appalling reality of Thailand. Oh but the adage is true:

What we allow we condone.

What is even more shameful to my thinking is that Thailand is considered a Buddhist country. Humn, not Buddhist actions. Poor Thailand.

[Parvis]

Tea Money at one time was required for any kind of transaction involving the bureaucracy (I remember paying 500 baht to get my car registered in less than 2 days). This has died down but still exists of course. Demanding tea money is a bit out of order though, as a hint is usually enough. Sometimes its worth oiling the wheels.

Corruption is corruption is corruption - and as long as people accept to "oil the wheels" it will exist. I personally make a point in NEVER "oiling the wheels" and now - I am actually always recognized immedeately, treated with respect and given better service.

[selftaopath]

I also find it hard to believe the mentality of some people.

Complain about the politics of the place then condone similar behavour from lesser officials. Where do you think acceptance of this behaviour originates?

Illegal bribes should never be paid, just to make your life a little bit easier. Knowing how this country works you must get your affairs in good order and have ample time to achieve eash process. It will then work without any 'tea money' (awfully shameful name for an illegal and corrupt process).

Recently the missus sold some land in Nakon .... One of the head land office guys is notoriosly corrupt, and actually told my missus that she must give the underlings some cash, or else. He was rude and indignant about it, shouting at her in full view of others. Of course, she didn't pay, and she escalated the matter thus giving him a problem. When she goes back to sell some more land in future I'm sure that they won't like her, and will try to obstruct her in every way they can. When this happens we will again escalate it to higher and higher athorities until it is dealt with correctly. If everyone acted in this socially and legally responsible manner then Thai society would have some chance of developing in a way that benefits normal citizens rather than selfish and corrupt scum bags.

Just my thoughts.

AMEN; thank you. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Artisi]

She was asking for a bribe. Bribery is illegal, even in Thailand. Next time, carry a switched-on tape recorder in your pocket. Once you have the evidence, make a copy, take it to your lawyer, and then call the police.

Are you a comedian by any chance or is it the 1st of April already.

[Maizefarmer]

It’s easy to criticize “tea money” when it is measured against Western values and perceptions.

Since when have Western values and perceptions being superior? Tea money needs to be looked at in it’s cultural context – just like Sin Sot. It has many similarities with Sin Sot in Thai society. Sure, it is abused, but in its correct context is both healthy and acceptable.

The reasons many find it unacceptable are usually more down to cultural [mis]understanding than a clear argument about why it’s bad. It’s more a case of when & why it’s paid that determines whether it’s an abuse of procedure or not – not simply that it is paid.

Take vehicle accidents for example – in which a drunken driver has killed someone: in rural parts of Thailand many such cases do not go to court. They do not go further than the local police station. Both parties will sit down and come to an amicable financial agreement (assuming of course the guilty fellow was not beaten to death at the side of the road).

Many in Western society may perceive that as abhorrent and see it as a bribe to buy ones way out of trouble. Actually fines do form the punishment (and/or part of) in many dangerous driving cases in the West – to include those in which people have being killed.

So, if it’s acceptable in righting a wrong as serious as the loss of human life, why do folk perceive it as unacceptable for speeding up the issuance of something as comparatively minor as some or other type of official document?

Lastly, there is one aspect to “tea money” that no-one has mentioned so far: it is in many cases a recognised, but unspoken, acknowledgement of the relationship between 2 people - whether it be to right a wrong or to conclude a transaction (business or otherwise), is beside the point. The significance in htis regard is the same. Because that concept doesn’t make sense to one is more about Western cultural attitudes in relationships than it is about what is right versus what is wrong.

Like Sin Sot, there is nothing wrong with “tea money” per say – it is understanding it in its correct place against the background of Thai/Asian culture values (not Western cultural perceptions about right and wrong) in dealings & transactions with others that determines whether or not it is being used correctly or abused.