Birth Defects Is This Karma ?

[IMChris]

Having dinner one night the topic came up about birth defects and Karma. If a women has a child with a birth defect ie: downs syndrom (I have seen so many of them in Thailand). Is this related to Karma and are both mother, father, child a part of this karma. How is this explained . Thank you for your input

[Heng]

I don't think the Lord Buddha ever made it to a genetics class, so whatever the explanation is "karma" wise, it's going to be something someone made up.

[nidge]

Bad Karma to marry your cousin?

[mr_hippo]

Having dinner one night the topic came up about birth defects and Karma. If a women has a child with a birth defect ie: downs syndrom (I have seen so many of them in Thailand). Is this related to Karma and are both mother, father, child a part of this karma. How is this explained . Thank you for your input

Are you related to the former England manager, Glenn Hoddle?

[Brucenkhamen]

Having dinner one night the topic came up about birth defects and Karma. If a women has a child with a birth defect ie: downs syndrom (I have seen so many of them in Thailand). Is this related to Karma and are both mother, father, child a part of this karma. How is this explained . Thank you for your input

Kamma is concerned with how you play the cards you are dealt, it's concerened with the action or reaction you take. Speculation on why the cards were dealt that way is a waste of time, if the mother and father make the most of this challenging situation then that's good kamma.

[chownah]

In Theravada Buddhism a person's condition when born is considered to be a result of kamma in a previous life....but.....be careful about drawing conclusions about how it precisely works as in Theravada Buddhism the Scriptures also indicate that the Buddha taught that the exact workings of kamma is not knowable.

Chownah

[fabianfred]

this book is an excellent guide to karma and re-birth...with particular reference to what you are asking....moreover it gives things from a western perspective and Cayce was from a christian background so it puts it into perspective from the point of the bible too.

http://www.amazon.com/Many-Mansions-Edgar-...2121&sr=1-1

karma and re-birth are very complex subjects....although we should have a basic understanding about them (as buddhists)...trying to know all the whys and wherefores is possible only for a buddha

genetics is what modern science trys to use to explain things..without a belief or understanding in the workings of karma and re-birth....actually genetics is only a mere tool of the karma process

a defective child has probably created karma in the past which has resulted in this form....but also the parents may have created karma which requires that they have to learn the lessons and difficulties of raising a deformed child...it will be a good spiritual experience for them and may be trying to balance their previously tending towards the material, and ignoring the spiritual

a life without spiritual progress is wasted

[Simon255]

This is something I have come to believe. Others have similar beliefs from various belief systems.

I would be interested to know how this compares with Buddhas teachings (I can't remember).

Samsara is a wheel and towards the top you can get a rebirth as a human if you choose to. Human rebirth is high up the pecking order and can not be achieved quickly. You have choices before birth and your condition is pure consciousness without the sensory complications, but carrying the Karmic impressions of previous activities. Karma is cause and effect, ying/yang. All Karma has to be resolved to establish balance in the universe. Some Karmas are only able to be resolved in the human condition at this place, so eventually you have to come back (unless all worldly Karmas have been balanced). Before rebirth you have choices based on your Karmic makeup. You can choose one of many lives to further your battles, remedies, greeds, love, spiritual progress or whatever the current intention might be. If you choose to remedy some of your negative Karma you may choose a defect body or cursed life purely to balance Karma so that you progress spiritually, whether you realise this or not during the life.

[fabianfred]

Buddhism teaches that samsara is existence in any realm consisting of birth and death...being caught up in the cycle the only escape from which is nirvana

even the heaven realms...although a lifetime lasts for a very long time (millions of years) and there is no suffering...that life will eventually end...and the next re-birth could be to a human realm or even an animal or hel_l realm depending where our karma takes us

humans tend to wish for re-birth in the heavens because we want pleasure and comfort...whereas those in the heavens wish for human re-birth because it is the best realm to achieve spiritual progress and enlightenment

[Aries74]

Having dinner one night the topic came up about birth defects and Karma. If a women has a child with a birth defect ie: downs syndrom (I have seen so many of them in Thailand). Is this related to Karma and are both mother, father, child a part of this karma. How is this explained . Thank you for your input

That's nonsense, lots of bad things happen all the time around world beside birth defects.

[jasreeve17]

Having dinner one night the topic came up about birth defects and Karma. If a women has a child with a birth defect ie: downs syndrom (I have seen so many of them in Thailand). Is this related to Karma and are both mother, father, child a part of this karma. How is this explained . Thank you for your input

A lot of people think that way according to my colleague, but she thinks it's nonsense like what I does. In fact, I think it's a thoroughly disgusting line of thought... ah, getting angry... going for a walk...

[Pepe']

Yes...

[chownah]

Another way to look at this:

Suppose you are bald....that is a birth defect....this I guess is the result of kamma. Should one mourn this?....why? If your baldness causes you grief then this is the result of kamma. You probably can not fix your baldness (ok, with some new drugs you can at least temporarily hide it) but you definitely can develop the knowledge that allows you to stop having negative reactions to it. The same thing can be applied to a parent who has a bald child....should they mourn the fact?...they can not fix their child's baldness but they can develop the knowledge that allows them to stop having negative reactions to it.

Chownah

[suegha]

Another way to look at this:

Suppose you are bald....that is a birth defect....this I guess is the result of kamma. Should one mourn this?....why? If your baldness causes you grief then this is the result of kamma. You probably can not fix your baldness (ok, with some new drugs you can at least temporarily hide it) but you definitely can develop the knowledge that allows you to stop having negative reactions to it. The same thing can be applied to a parent who has a bald child....should they mourn the fact?...they can not fix their child's baldness but they can develop the knowledge that allows them to stop having negative reactions to it.

Chownah

Wise post chow. All of my family are slghtly 'short-legged'. I'm 5'10'' if my legs were the right length I'd be six foot! Is this karma? Oh my parents must have been evil for all eleven kids to be short-legged!

[Pepe']

Actually everything is karma...

[geriatrickid]

genetics is what modern science trys to use to explain things..without a belief or understanding in the workings of karma and re-birth....actually genetics is only a mere tool of the karma process

a defective child has probably created karma in the past which has resulted in this form....but also the parents may have created karma which requires that they have to learn the lessons and difficulties of raising a deformed child...it will be a good spiritual experience for them and may be trying to balance their previously tending towards the material, and ignoring the spiritual a life without spiritual progress is wasted

I don't think that's what the intent of the karma notion is although I do recognize that there is a cause and effect. My layman's understanding is that genetic inheritance is attributed to Biija Niyama and not Karma Niyama. I may be wrong since I am not a buddhist scholar, and am a member of the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, so my views are influenced by my own Church teachings.

For the record, mitotic errors during cell division cause Down's syndrome. That is not a scientific "explanation". It is a an uncontested proven reality. Today, we can predict who is most likely to create a trisomic embryo even before there is a fertilized egg. Once there is an embryo, the ability to determine the syndrome is 99% accurate. How is it Karma if we know the exact likelihood that someone will bear a down's syndrome child?

[Pepe']

We can observe a car going over a high cliff and calculate the outcome.

It is all karma...

[chutai]

Whether physical defects , disabilities or whatever are karmic is irrelevant. The thing is to change our unhappy karma in this lifetime and thus become happier and wiser beings.

[bsided69]

Edited March 9, 2008 by bsided69

[Simon255]

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad

You are what your deep driving desire is; As your deep driving desire is, so is your will; As your will is so is your deed; As your deed is so is your destiny.

We live in accordance with our deep, driving desire. It is this desire at the time of death that determines what our next life is to be. We will come back to earth to work out the satisfaction of that desire.

[wolf5370]

I think this is a classic case of "trying to read the mind of god" - a bit like the old Indian story of the blind beggars and the elephant (they all feel a different part of the elephant and conclude that the elephant is that shape). I don't believe we can look at the birth of one child and say catagorically (or even surmise) that the reason is because of this or that; that itb is a test for the kid, the parents, the milkman - whatever. We simply do not have the big picture.

My belief, as a Buddhist, but also as a sentient being that can think for themself, is that we are here for a reason - the life bit is not as important as we think; in as much as a single piece of a 10000 piece jigsaw isn't important that is. We pass through many lives and make many errors and, hopefully, learn something. Some lives will be 'easy' other 'less easy' - the aim is to move forward. How can we judge a single life - is it really about 'blame' for being 'bad' in a earlier life (quote Hoddle!) - a punishment? a chance to make up for it? I think neither, I think its just the next set of lessons we need to learn to move us towards enlightenment.

Just me 2 satang.

[IMChris]

As the OP I did find something on this it's called the CAUSE AND EFFECT SUTURA

This is not of the Theravada but the Vajrayana or Tibetan Buddhism and does talk about this very topic. A little heavy for my taste but very intresting.

http://www.gracioushearts.com/ebooks/san-s...n-guo/index.htm

[Brucenkhamen]

My belief, as a Buddhist, but also as a sentient being that can think for themself, is that we are here for a reason - the life bit is not as important as we think; in as much as a single piece of a 10000 piece jigsaw isn't important that is. We pass through many lives and make many errors and, hopefully, learn something. Some lives will be 'easy' other 'less easy' - the aim is to move forward. How can we judge a single life - is it really about 'blame' for being 'bad' in a earlier life (quote Hoddle!) - a punishment? a chance to make up for it? I think neither, I think its just the next set of lessons we need to learn to move us towards enlightenment.

Just me 2 satang.

True. The Buddhas teaching on Kamma (at least the affect part) is about being aware that everything you do now affects your future, it's not about speculating how you got where you are now. The latter may be the case with other Indian philosophies and perhaps that's where the confusion come from.

[Simon255]

True. The Buddhas teaching on Kamma (at least the affect part) is about being aware that everything you do now affects your future, it's not about speculating how you got where you are now. The latter may be the case with other Indian philosophies and perhaps that's where the confusion come from.

It is better to understand where you came from so that you get a clearer picture of where you are going, not withstanding the need to be aware of the present.. Buddhism is disparate to some degree and the vast array of Indian philiosophies cover everything and are often contracdictory. But one thing is true - There is unity in diversity, everyone has to find there own way. Don't forget also that Buddhism is an Indian philosophy.

[Brucenkhamen]

It is better to understand where you came from so that you get a clearer picture of where you are going, not withstanding the need to be aware of the present.. Buddhism is disparate to some degree and the vast array of Indian philiosophies cover everything and are often contracdictory. But one thing is true - There is unity in diversity, everyone has to find there own way. Don't forget also that Buddhism is an Indian philosophy.

Ok then. I've got a birth defect, I'm short sighted. Where did it come from? Both of my parents are short sighted so I think that's more than coincidental don't you. Is that Kamma? Who knows? Who cares? Knowing whether it is or isn't won't help me see a clearer picture of where I'm going... spectacles will.

So I'd be interested in someone explaining an example of how knowing the kammic causes of something you were born with you would get a clearer picture of where you are going, and how you could prove that was not merely speculation.

[Simon255]

It is better to understand where you came from so that you get a clearer picture of where you are going, not withstanding the need to be aware of the present.. Buddhism is disparate to some degree and the vast array of Indian philiosophies cover everything and are often contracdictory. But one thing is true - There is unity in diversity, everyone has to find there own way. Don't forget also that Buddhism is an Indian philosophy.

Ok then. I've got a birth defect, I'm short sighted. Where did it come from? Both of my parents are short sighted so I think that's more than coincidental don't you. Is that Kamma? Who knows? Who cares? Knowing whether it is or isn't won't help me see a clearer picture of where I'm going... spectacles will.

So I'd be interested in someone explaining an example of how knowing the kammic causes of something you were born with you would get a clearer picture of where you are going, and how you could prove that was not merely speculation.

Spiritual healing, Reiki for instance in the more advanced practices deals with this alot. Various levels of consciouness also gross and subtle parts of the body are constantly undergoing healing. It is often important for the conscious / subconscious to undrestand the real reason they inherited a condition. I am not going into this in any detail. Some people will benefit from knowing the karmic cause and some don't need to know or will not benefit. The most important thing to undertand is that there is no one to blame - all past, current and future conditions are yours and yours alone. If you want to fully understand Karma, it is very clearly defined within Buddhism.

[Brucenkhamen]

Spiritual healing, Reiki for instance in the more advanced practices deals with this alot. Various levels of consciouness also gross and subtle parts of the body are constantly undergoing healing. It is often important for the conscious / subconscious to undrestand the real reason they inherited a condition. I am not going into this in any detail. Some people will benefit from knowing the karmic cause and some don't need to know or will not benefit. The most important thing to undertand is that there is no one to blame - all past, current and future conditions are yours and yours alone.

I don't have a problem with the ideas put across here, they sound quite reasonable, what I'm not seeing is any proof. Without proof one wouldn't want to hold onto such a blind belief too tightly. Keeping an open mind is a good thing in Buddhist practice, to me that means there is no need to believe or disbelieve in such things.

If you want to fully understand Karma, it is very clearly defined within Buddhism.

On the contrary, there are several different interpretations in Theravadin circles, let alone other schools of Buddhism, one need only read this forum to get quite different views on the topic.

So I don't think it's well defined in Buddhism (I refer to the kamma across multiple lives idea here). The main reason for that in my opinion is the teachings the Buddha gave on the topic were in response to the prevailing belief in India at the time and other than that it's not an important part of the teaching.

What is an important part of the teaching is that every action I take now has a result, and it's the intention behind the action that's the key. This where the rubber hits the road, not in my previous life when I was Shirley Maclaines butler.

As I say, others may see it differently.

[wolf5370]

When we are "Alive" (between deaths????) we have no memory of our other lives. Trying to understand our position, why we were placed in a family where hereditory short-sightendnes exists etc, is pointless. We do not have memories, let alone facts, so proof is impossible - its also not important.

We should not so much worry as to why we are in this position (I'm talking about position we were born into, not why we are behind bars when we mugged nice Mrs Schwartz from across the road), but how we can live our present life to our own conscience.

The natural state of the mind is clear and knowing. Most of our minds are clouded by ignorance which is the result of living in the past, which we cannot change or in the future, the nature of which is that our mental projections may or may not happen. We learn from the past and put it into practice in the present. We plan for the future by putting causes and conditions in place in the present but we know our minds to be supple enough not to be too distressed if our plans do not come to fruition.

The long and the short of it: We can't change the past (including past lives) and we can do little to influence the future (especially our next lives) as there are so many variables (other peoples plans for example) that the only thing we really have any real control over is our present. The future is unknowable, the past is unchangeable. From sitting in one little life, we can not see the thread of our karma across our whole existance - even if we could it would be meaningless unless we could also see the threads of every other being too and understand all the interactions acrosst time - erm, then we would be God, neh?

This is good ==> Karma

Live long a prosper...

Edited March 12, 2008 by wolf5370

[Simon255]

Just a couple of points if anyone could comment......

I am sure I have read and heard that Buddha, and previous Buddhas had full mastery of the the universe and were adept in all manner of yogic powers including creating new worlds. Now he was a sentient being lets not forget. Surely this is a God also.

I disagree with these points

You can not change your past

You can do little to influence the future

The future is unknowable, the past is unchangeable - this is wrong!

There is nothing you can not do all limitations are created by yourself.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Simon255

[IMChris]

It is better to understand where you came from so that you get a clearer picture of where you are going, not withstanding the need to be aware of the present.. Buddhism is disparate to some degree and the vast array of Indian philiosophies cover everything and are often contracdictory. But one thing is true - There is unity in diversity, everyone has to find there own way. Don't forget also that Buddhism is an Indian philosophy.

Ok then. I've got a birth defect, I'm short sighted. Where did it come from? Both of my parents are short sighted so I think that's more than coincidental don't you. Is that Kamma? Who knows? Who cares? Knowing whether it is or isn't won't help me see a clearer picture of where I'm going... spectacles will.

So I'd be interested in someone explaining an example of how knowing the kammic causes of something you were born with you would get a clearer picture of where you are going, and how you could prove that was not merely speculation.

Cause and effect Sutra......." To understand your previous life, look at what you have in your present life. To have a preview of your next life, examine yout daily act in this life".