How Intellectually Stimulated Do You Feel

[Jingjok]

A relevant question, Seonai.

Were you own answer ‘a lot’ I doubt you would have asked.

I’ve been in Phuket for three years, dealing with building a house. It is an intellectual desert and extremely frustrating. My solution is mainly the internet: I find myself wasting days just reading disparate subjects for no good reason, plus books (but not bought from bookshops here, obviously), and escaping to KL as much as possible, where people speak English and are generally well educated, and interested in stuff.

Plus KL has the things others have noted as missing here – music, theatre, decent cinemas not always showing trash, and even a world-class racetrack with Formula One on 21-23 March.

There is a Thai Mensa group, apparently in Bangkok, but they don’t answer e-mails. Maybe the single member has given up

The big question is why in there an intellectual problem here? I’ve pondered this at length. Here’s my personal hypothesis:

Beyond very basic (OK, and maybe abstract) concepts, one needs language in order to think in a structured, logical way. From early childhood, memories appear to be stored via a language-based format. We retain few memories from before we developed linguistic ability; I suspect there’s a connection there.

The Thai language is basic. I’m not fluent in Thai, but know enough to peruse a dictionary (Mary Haas) so can see the vocabulary is limited. As is the syntax and grammar.

I expect to be flamed for this by the ‘everything is wonderful in Thailand’ group, but there it is.

I’m sure most visitors here have come across instances of Thais being unable to understand each other when talking of other that simple concepts. In my experience, even ordering building products and explaining how work should be done frequently causes problems. The same material has to be gone over again and again. Have you noticed how long it takes for two Thais to achieve simple tasks over the phone?

I am convinced this is often not because the people are basically stupid, but because of the linguistic limitation. There just isn’t the vocabulary and linguistic structure to explain things properly.

Now here’s the scary bit: without an advanced language, there is no possibility of advanced thought.

Other formerly agrarian communities had equally simple languages, but went on to become fully developed and technocratic societies. But, without exception, their populations are fluent in one or more advanced language.

It’s sad that this limitation really is holding back Thailand. The jingoistic ‘Thailand is the best country in the world’ attitude does not dispose the population to take the learning of foreign languages seriously. Any criticism of their language would probably be taken as an insult by most Thais. And be answered not by well-expressed counterargument, but by gunfire. QED.

Of course by ‘foreign language’ I personally mean English, but as a native speaker I’m biased . Though as a typical Brit, I’m not that great at using it myself of course. I have a Chinese friend who loves English as much as me, and frequently corrects my usage.

[quiksilva]

What is Philogy? Do you mean Philology or Theology?

Philology is the study of ancient texts, or texts in general. Part of linguistics. I can just imagine Unfaithful tutoring some fifth grader and wanting to wax eloquent about Greek manuscripts.

Yes, I got that, you see I was actually pointing out the posters' spelling mistake, which I found amusing in light of the topic of the thread.

Perhaps I was being too subtle.

[GuestHouse]

I am convinced this is often not because the people are basically stupid, but because of the linguistic limitation. There just isn’t the vocabulary and linguistic structure to explain things properly.

Now here’s the scary bit: without an advanced language, there is no possibility of advanced thought.

You need to learn more about the Thai language - It is extremely expressive, in many senses more so than English. That you personally cannot discuss a philosophical subject in Thai, art and the arts and any other subject for which an understanding of the language you are trying to use (and here denigrating) does not mean that many Thais do not discuss these subjects, in Thai, in depth and eloquently.

---

But why the rush to blame Thai for the dulling of brain cells - I wonder how many expats in Thailand actively sought out any form of intellectual stimulation before they arrived in Thailand (Beyond reading the Satellite Base Station to work out how to tune into Sky Sports that is)?

There’s a fabulous language to learn, history, culture, and growing arts scene, and if you care to seek it out plenty of intellectual debate on a wide range of subjects.

[Maigo6]

I'm due back in the Village within the next 6 weeks, Stephen Hawking is the guest speaker at our next gathering.

He will lecture on the general theory of relativity and the discovery of the expansion of the universe, also why Lao Khao is universally preferred from a plastic bag to a tea cup.

Edited March 3, 2008 by Maigo6

[trader1]

I am convinced this is often not because the people are basically stupid, but because of the linguistic limitation. There just isn't the vocabulary and linguistic structure to explain things properly.

Now here's the scary bit: without an advanced language, there is no possibility of advanced thought.

You need to learn more about the Thai language - It is extremely expressive, in many senses more so than English. That you personally cannot discuss a philosophical subject in Thai, art and the arts and any other subject for which an understanding of the language you are trying to use (and here denigrating) does not mean that many Thais do not discuss these subjects, in Thai, in depth and eloquently.

---

But why the rush to blame Thai for the dulling of brain cells - I wonder how many expats in Thailand actively sought out any form of intellectual stimulation before they arrived in Thailand (Beyond reading the Satellite Base Station to work out how to tune into Sky Sports that is)?

There's a fabulous language to learn, history, culture, and growing arts scene, and if you care to seek it out plenty of intellectual debate on a wide range of subjects.

Yes, Chris moore's Heart talk has 900 phrases related just to emotion. A few more than you would find in English I suspect.

[Naam]

I'm due back in the Village within the next 6 weeks, Stephen Hawking is the guest speaker at our next gathering.

He will lecture on the general theory of relativity and the discovery of the expansion of the universe, also why Lao Khao is universally preferred from a plastic bag to a tea cup.

i'm sure he will speak in thai as this is the preferred language of astro-physicists

[Naam]

There’s a fabulous language to learn, history, culture, and growing arts scene, and if you care to seek it out plenty of intellectual debate on a wide range of subjects.

did you ever think of a career as a stand-up comedian GH?

[Jingjok]

I am convinced this is often not because the people are basically stupid, but because of the linguistic limitation. There just isn’t the vocabulary and linguistic structure to explain things properly.

Now here’s the scary bit: without an advanced language, there is no possibility of advanced thought.

You need to learn more about the Thai language - It is extremely expressive, in many senses more so than English. That you personally cannot discuss a philosophical subject in Thai, art and the arts and any other subject for which an understanding of the language you are trying to use (and here denigrating) does not mean that many Thais do not discuss these subjects, in Thai, in depth and eloquently.

...

There’s a fabulous language to learn, history, culture, and growing arts scene, and if you care to seek it out plenty of intellectual debate on a wide range of subjects.

That’s interesting. I fully accept I could be completely wrong. Maybe it’s not the language per se which is lacking, but the teaching and widespread use of it. I based my judgement on hearing (and understanding) many extremely laboured telephone conversations, where the parties were struggling to find words to use.

Also the fact that a complete Thai dictionary is about 2 inches thick, whereas a complete English one fills a yard of shelf space. Although I accept that most of the latter is obsolete, and little is in daily use, even amongst educated speakers.

Let’s do an experiment. Please translate the ten words below, when applied to the visual characteristics of a woman, into Thai for me. Each of course is subtly different in English.

These are from the top of my head so may not be the best examples. No one I know, including foreign-educated Thais who are reasonably fluent in English and therefore get the point, can get beyond Suay or Suay maak for all of them! Well, certainly not without including a few obsolete poetic terms which would not be understood by non-scholars.

Beautiful

Elegant

Exquisite

Gorgeous

Pretty

Ravishing

Resplendent

Splendid

Stunning

Sublime

[Jingjok]

I'm due back in the Village within the next 6 weeks, Stephen Hawking is the guest speaker at our next gathering.

He will lecture on the general theory of relativity and the discovery of the expansion of the universe, also why Lao Khao is universally preferred from a plastic bag to a tea cup.

i'm sure he will speak in thai as this is the preferred language of astro-physicists

LOL! Hilarious, both of you. Hawking is of course a Cosmologist, but I'll let that go

[AlexLah]

Why not start a subforum for those that like to be mentally stimulated and have an open mind?

oops, sorry there is the pub and entertainment one........

[Maigo6]

These are from the top of my head so may not be the best examples. No one I know, including foreign-educated Thais who are reasonably fluent in English and therefore get the point, can get beyond Suay or Suay maak for all of them! Well, certainly not without including a few obsolete poetic terms which would not be understood by non-scholars.

Beautiful

Elegant

Exquisite

Gorgeous

Pretty

Ravishing

Resplendent

Splendid

Stunning

Sublime

Jingjok has thrown down the gauntlet,

I'm sure that some members of Thai Visa are asking their Oxbridge educated wives to come up with the answers.

Edited March 3, 2008 by Maigo6

[seonai]

To make this clear... I do not mean that being less intellectually stimulated here as something against Thais or Thailand. I just felt myself being less stimulated on a daily basis in Thailand. I speak near fluent Thai and the conversations I have with people in Thai are limited to a lack of opinion. Suggesting that I probably agree with a lot of what Jingjok has to say and what others have to say about the method of education in Thailand - limited thinking. Thai children are not taught to think as much as Western children and this must have an effect on future generations. Also reading, very few Thais read for pleasure/learning.

It's all very interesting...

[egg6447]

I'm due back in the Village within the next 6 weeks, Stephen Hawking is the guest speaker at our next gathering.

He will lecture on the general theory of relativity and the discovery of the expansion of the universe, also why Lao Khao is universally preferred from a plastic bag to a tea cup.

hey M 6 now this intelectual humour at its best. i prefere you in this mood to some moods you subscibe in . well done keep it up.

[Maigo6]

hey M 6 now this intelectual humour at its best. i prefere you in this mood to some moods you subscibe in . well done keep it up.

egg, I have mood swings.

When I see many anti-Thai posts I never see many Thai people here to hit back at the Farangs, so I try to put across another point of view .

Maybe the general consensus is that I'm a pratt, but hey, what ya gonna do.

Edited March 3, 2008 by Maigo6

[AlexLah]

Dear Seonai,

You need a session with Alexlah....

All your questions will be answered with a question, how about that?

Just kidding na!

Would just love to meet up with peeps like you.

Peace all!

Alex

[egg6447]

i was brought up never to ask questions, fortunatly i kicked against, always ask the oddball question, think out the box. example now, what the hel_l is intelectual, stimulation has nothing to do with intelect, niether has art, music, poetry, musiums, reading or laying in my hammock picking my nose. however for me interlect is understanding what you know, ie, all of the above if you understand any or all. there are very few farangs that can give me stimulating/interlectual conversations so thailand is no problem . reading a seriouse book is,to me, not intelectualy stimulating although my reading is mostly not available in the puplic libraries. i apply understanding to everyone that i talk to and unfortunatly its not often returned as open forums demenstrate all to well. ie the chinees wispers syndrome, just about every topic goes of topic because so very few readers understand what there reading, and effectivly start there own topic within the topic. nobody takeing up jings challenge.. how about you gh.

[egg6447]

hey M 6 now this intelectual humour at its best. i prefere you in this mood to some moods you subscibe in . well done keep it up.

egg, I have mood swings.

When I see many anti-Thai posts I never see many Thai people here to hit back at the Farangs, so I try to put across another point of view .

Maybe the general consensus is that I'm a pratt, but hey, what ya gonna do.

M ive always undrstood where your comeing from hence i normaly enjoy your posts, i have a short list of posters that i accept as intelegent becuase i understand them, including the wind up merchants. tally ho.

[intumult]

On the one hand, my small head is increasingly stimulated.

As for my larger head its intellect is definitely further ino the gutter and less stimulated

Ooooh poor man

You need to go out;full of nice girls(men?) here

Sorry could not resist

This quote was my daily brain stimulus (the big one....)

Oh, oh. I must have been watching too many XXX movies when the hand to head came to mind. I'll take your advice. I'm off for a very cold shower and off out to the pub to be served by some of those nice ladies (no men thanks )

[egg6447]

seonai i agree , you just dont see people sitting in the park, beach, train reading as you do in farangland, but theres not a lot of piont reading if you dont understand what your reading, also the implications very often.. M theres nowt rong with knocking thais , a spade is a spade, i,m always getting the wife to ask my questions for me, plus answers, lo and behold after some minuets of yak i always walk away because i sence the thread has been lost on both sides. what do i get frustrated!!. a lot of my friends feel the same as me. i went through a phase of asking educated thais , how many cent in a mtr, i never found one yet with the answer. a chinees friend took the wife and i out for dinner, during the meal he told me he had a degree in maths, three strait AAA,s , i asked the question, how many cents in mtr, answer no idea. ask your educated ladies, i await with bated breath.

[egg6447]

---

Yes, Chris moore's Heart talk has 900 phrases related just to emotion. A few more than you would find in English I suspect.

now this i just do not believe, why not,? pure common sence. however i,m not bothered one way or the other enough to check it out, but like i say common sence. 900 phrases, ive only ever hear three in 11yrs

[egg6447]

I'm due back in the Village within the next 6 weeks, Stephen Hawking is the guest speaker at our next gathering.

He will lecture on the general theory of relativity and the discovery of the expansion of the universe, also why Lao Khao is universally preferred from a plastic bag to a tea cup.

i'm sure he will speak in thai as this is the preferred language of astro-physicists

naam now heres a man of intelect and subtlety. says it all in one liners

[egg6447]

There’s a fabulous language to learn, history, culture, and growing arts scene, and if you care to seek it out plenty of intellectual debate on a wide range of subjects.

did you ever think of a career as a stand-up comedian GH?

and here.

[mikethevigoman]

Just a thought...

The term numbskull comes to mind !,. as john cleese said in one of the fawlty towers episodes " That particular avenue of pleasure was closed off years ago "

[RueFang]

The Thai language is basic. I'm not fluent in Thai, but know enough to peruse a dictionary (Mary Haas) so can see the vocabulary is limited...

I am convinced this is often not because the people are basically stupid, but because of the linguistic limitation. There just isn't the vocabulary and linguistic structure to explain things properly.

I fully accept I could be completely wrong. Maybe it's not the language per se which is lacking, but the teaching and widespread use of it. I based my judgement on hearing (and understanding) many extremely laboured telephone conversations, where the parties were struggling to find words to use.

Let's do an experiment. Please translate the ten words below...

It's a relief that you do accept you could be wrong, otherwise you could be accused of being quite the ignoramus. Since you admit to not being fluent in Thai but then claim expert knowledge in the limitedness of the language you are not proficient in because you've listened to some phone conversations is slightly arrogant from my point of view.

The Thai equivalent (without being poetic) to your list:

Beautiful - สวย

Elegant - มารยาทดี

Exquisite - งดงาม

Gorgeous - หรูหรา

Pretty - เก๋

Ravishing - ปลื้ม

Resplendent - เปล่งปลั่ง

Splendid - โอ่โถง

Stunning - น่าตลึง

Sublime - งามเลิศ

You will note that only the first word involves สวย because that is literally 'beautiful'. You could do a similar list in Thai language and ask for the English translation for such things as emotions. There is no exact translation for a lot of Thai words as English perhaps uses only basic words such as happy or sad (bad example off the top of my head ) whereas Thai may have a dozen or more words. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong , because my Thai is limited

That's not to say that I don't agree with you regarding many Thais not having an interest in furthering their knowledge by reading, etc and the state of the education system in this country is obviously appalling and doesn't encourage kids to think creatively or independently which has obvious ramifications on the entire country.

[t.s]

That’s interesting. I fully accept I could be completely wrong. Maybe it’s not the language per se which is lacking, but the teaching and widespread use of it. I based my judgement on hearing (and understanding) many extremely laboured telephone conversations, where the parties were struggling to find words to use.

Also the fact that a complete Thai dictionary is about 2 inches thick, whereas a complete English one fills a yard of shelf space. Although I accept that most of the latter is obsolete, and little is in daily use, even amongst educated speakers.

Let’s do an experiment. Please translate the ten words below, when applied to the visual characteristics of a woman, into Thai for me. Each of course is subtly different in English.

These are from the top of my head so may not be the best examples. No one I know, including foreign-educated Thais who are reasonably fluent in English and therefore get the point, can get beyond Suay or Suay maak for all of them! Well, certainly not without including a few obsolete poetic terms which would not be understood by non-scholars.

Beautiful

Elegant

Exquisite

Gorgeous

Pretty

Ravishing

Resplendent

Splendid

Stunning

Sublime

it would be a valid exercise if you could provide distinctions yourself in english, and indeed all of the words had to do with beauty.

i fear few english speakers could provide definitions of these terms without falling back on the word beautiful and direct translation into thai is unlikely.

i also see the word elegant as problematic as it deals more with the way an aestheic is executed than with beauty itself.

Edited March 3, 2008 by t.s

[PeaceBlondie]

First of all, the level of intellectual discourse on ThaiVisa (and even some hi-falutin forums about teaching English, Christian discipleship, etc.) is not Oxbridge/Ivy League territory. Your average 'peasant' rice farmer is no more likely to discuss Aristotelian logic as your average Mexican corn farmer.

However, I sat through a lot of lunches and dinners with Thai teachers who were educated by the Thai method, not overseas in UK or USA. Their comments in English usually amounted to "this sticky rice is very sticky" and "this som tam is very spicy." I kid you not. They mouthed essentially the same platitudes their grandmothers mumbled. Nice ladies and gentlemen, hard working, salt of the earth, and the ladies wore some of the nicest silk dresses on Friday. But if there was one sign of intellect among the 50 that I knew reasonably well, I never saw it. You could tell me that once they launched into Central or Northern Thai, they discussed the ennui of existential metaphysics, but I sincerely doubt it.

Surely there are hundreds of well educated, high-thinking, introspective, speculative Thais among the 63 million. They are not normal or typical.

[Unfaithful]

Oh please, let us also strike some balance here. Whilst aboriginal tribesmen can expound endlessly on the life cycles of lesser animals, the average guy in the outback's idea of 'intellectual discourse' was to explain his symptoms to the flying doctor. I suspect that Welsh coal miners and Idaho spud farmers never read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," and considered the Japanese guy on Karate Kid to be a fount of wisdom.

I have a cousin in Adelaide who bores me within three minutes of meeting him. Cricket and beer, nothing more.

[t.s]

First of all, the level of intellectual discourse on ThaiVisa (and even some hi-falutin forums about teaching English, Christian discipleship, etc.) is not Oxbridge/Ivy League territory. Your average 'peasant' rice farmer is no more likely to discuss Aristotelian logic as your average Mexican corn farmer.

However, I sat through a lot of lunches and dinners with Thai teachers who were educated by the Thai method, not overseas in UK or USA. Their comments in English usually amounted to "this sticky rice is very sticky" and "this som tam is very spicy." I kid you not. They mouthed essentially the same platitudes their grandmothers mumbled. Nice ladies and gentlemen, hard working, salt of the earth, and the ladies wore some of the nicest silk dresses on Friday. But if there was one sign of intellect among the 50 that I knew reasonably well, I never saw it. You could tell me that once they launched into Central or Northern Thai, they discussed the ennui of existential metaphysics, but I sincerely doubt it.

Surely there are hundreds of well educated, high-thinking, introspective, speculative Thais among the 63 million. They are not normal or typical.

the use of the english laguage is declining equally steadily in my opinion.

there are millions of people who regularly misuse phrases in regular conversation, simply because i believe they have never seen them in writing. "bold-faced lie" and (spoken) "statue of limitations" are two very recent examples that spring to mind.

the other day, and international school teacher i know declared somethng a "mute point"

how often do i meet self professed atheists that are merely agnostics?.

newspapers, magazines etc are written for the lowest common denominator, and literature or the variety commonly sold in airports is little better and provides almost no intellectual challenge. a lack of interest in anything other that current events means that people dont even know where many of the terms they are using come from. then there is cnn speak where a noun like impact becomes a verb

i am reminded of the film Idiocracy, which despite its sortcomings had a very funny but terrifying premise.

[Beardog]

Since last year especially I feel an accelerated Intellectual stimulation. When My Girlfriend & I decided to get some land & build a house it opened a cornucopia of Stimulation! First trying to figure out Thai Logic(or lack of) Having our builder under bid our house & went bankrupt put me in a position to build at least 50% of our house & rebuild 20+% . Having being out of the construction field for 25 years(I was a journeyman Carpenter for 7 years in the U.S.). I have with the help of Naam ,Chownah, Crossy Licky Slapout & a whole bunch of great posters been able to draw up from memory my skills in Plumbing electrical painting growing & taking care of lawn as well as learning some brickwork & other assorted things. I used to be into farming - back in 1974-1976 & have been really enjoying relearning & creating life in the gardens.

Even though it can be somewhat frustrating at times, I have been much more challenged than being the boss for 25+ years in the auto industry trades. It is a great challenge to start the learning process & enjoy the new challenges a lot. And I thought retirement was going to be turning into a couch potato.....NOT! Now if I could ever get my mind into the metric mindset...........

[GuestHouse]

How about a translation of the following (into simple English language terms).

extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated.

Or perhaps the term 'bigotry'? - It does after all seem to be to be just that when someone on the one hand admits to having little or no Thai language skills while on the other denigrates the whole of Thai language on the basis of his limited understanding.

-----

There are many reasons why some foreigners who have moved to live in Thailand find they lack intellectual stimulation; their own intellectual curiosity (or lack thereof) is perhaps the main reason for this, closely followed by the company they keep and the way in which they choose to use their free time.

People are either dull and uninterested in learning or they are not.

No need to blame the whole of Thai society for the failings of a few foreigners, even if you yourself are among them.