Expat Net Worth

[LivinLOS]

I'm also sketical of the number of millionaires here, but who cares. If people want to lie on an anonymous poll I hope it makes them feel better.

I would also agree with the posters that state that to have an upper middle class lifestyle here is actually more expensive than in the west and the quality is often lower.

It is possible to live cheaply here, millions of Thais do it. But if you want a western standard of living with western quality goods and services you pay more than in the Europe and way more than in the US.

Many things are cheaper in Thailand because they are far lower quality. When you want western quality, that means western brand names, which is usually more expensive.

The main things that are cheaper are personal services (of ALL kinds!) because Thai people are cheap. Having a maid and driver are luxuries in the west, whereas BMW sells more 3 series cars in the UK than Ford sells Mondeos so having a BMW is no longer a luxury. Electronic goods are more expensive at anything above the lower end.

Clothes aren't any cheaper if you buy genuine western brands. If you don't, then the quality is generally poor.

Food is cheaper and restaurants are cheaper, but the quality is very variable and health and sanitation is so terrifying you can't even start to think about it compared to a western restaurant.

Accomodation is somewhat cheaper unless you decide you want western standard accomodation, when its no longer cheaper. A 150 Sqm apartment to western standards of construction, fitting, fixtures and finish is $5k a month in a good area of bangkok, and probably $4k a month in a good area of Los Angeles for example. And even then the actual quality of "luxury" property is often poor with bizarre pennypinching and lack of attention to detail and lack of trained fitting and installation. Electrical and plumbing systems here are a joke, no matter how much you pay.

Cars are so much more highly priced you end up driving something a trailer park resident in the US would reject or you tie up a large amount of capital in a non-productive "asset"

Other services such as TV channels, internet, mobile phones, etc. are all vastly inferior AND more expensive!

Many goods and products are simply unavailable. I'd love to have the new Amazon Kindling for example. Impossible here.

You need to make a LOT of money here to match the lifestyle you would have in the West. People who say its cheap to live here are finding it cheap because they've willingly downgraded their standard of living to include mostly those things that are cheap in Thailand while abandoning many of the things that aren't.

I could say it was cheap to live in the US if I lived in a rural trailer park, ate Costco food and drove a ten year old pickup.

These are essentially my points..

When I see a 50 year old man, obviously not a pauper, driving around on a shoddy auto scooter saying life is cheap its not like hes talking like for like.. Would he live like that in Europe ?? Of course not.. Its easy with the ready smiles, willing women, sunny skies (tho the humidity can get a bit old if your not used to it) and cheap cost of basics to forget the less important and perhaps superficial things.. But to compare like for like it gets a lot less clear. Just finding western build quality, a bearable internet connection, the low rez horror that is the only sat TV game in town and these things cost more than the west IMO.

I mean what cost are blu ray hidef movies ?? Or a player ?? Has anyone even seen one here ?? Back in the west I could have a netflix account and have as many as I could watch on a one price monthly deal.. How much is a high def movie channel on my cable or sat ?? Ohh its not there at any price ?? OK I know I am a movie buff and a home theater fan, but everyone has hobbies, many of which you have to give up if you live here.

I am not trying to paint it as doom and gloom.. I have probably gone too native to ever feel at home among too many rules and regs and do love my life here.. But the continual hammering that Thailand is so cheap irks me a little when personally I see it as more of a trade off than a bargain.

[Jingthing]

Back in the west I could have a netflix account and have as many as I could watch on a one price monthly deal..

BTW: I have a netflix account; I serve it through a slingbox in the home of a US friend. I had a Volvo in the US. I wouldn't ever pay the price for a Volvo here, but the thing is, there I needed a good car, here I don't need any kind of car or even a moto. You really can't compare 1 to 1; it is a more holistic evaluation.

Edited April 14, 2008 by Jingthing

[ilyushin]

After reading this entire thread, I think I have missed a formula. Net worth is assets, not income. I am assets-poor and pension-rich. I would not use a conversion factor higher than six percent. If you have a pension with COLA adjustments, how much would that translate to, at age 65? Each monthly pension amount of US$ substitutes for how many dollars of assets? On my Excel spreadsheet, using PV function for 20 years, I get that a thousand dollars monthly equals $140,000, which is over 4.3 million baht.

Back on topic, I think that means that you need 4.3 million baht to give yourself a monthly annuity of US$1,000, not allowing for cost of living allowances for inflation.

Interesting PB. Brainstorm some miore. Happy SK too!

[ACMIKE]

Two things:

1. 1000 USD a month is well below the poverty level in most countries.

2. If you are on TV all the time 200 a month is enough.

[Jingjok]

I dont want to go off topic cuz I think this is a very interesting discussion.

BUT. Where as a matter of fact would you live?

…So, where would you go?

Malaysia

I agree that owning a fancy car in Thailand is extremely expensive and i miss my cars BUT only in combination with the German autobahn. what would i do with a fancy car on pothole ridden and speed limited thai roads?...

You would drive it down to Malaysia and blast it along their world-class N-S highway, having imported your supercar completely tax and duty free under the Malaysia My Second Home scheme.

That’s what I would do.

Well, did actually

What a breath of fresh air Malaysia is compared to the restrictive anti-foreigner rules in Thailand. I tire of this place.

yeah right! i hate to cross my property line and enjoy the comforts of a nice home. driving 1,500km to Malaysia to "blast" on one of Malaysia's highways? i'd be interested in that stuff you ingest. do you smoke it or inject it? if the latter then intravenous or subcutane?

Yeah, OK for some reason I thought you were in Phuket, as I am. Malaysia's a bit far from Pattaya I concede.

But you said you 'missed your cars'. So I offer a generic solution for Southern Thai petrolheads - import through Malaysia. Believe me, it works. And the northern part of Malaysia's N-S highway is bloody excellent: it puts many Western European roads to shame. I drove it three weeks ago so know what I'm talking about. Haven't gone south from KL to Sing yet though, so I can't reliably comment on that part.

There's a Cannonball 8000 rally next April, from Singapore to Phuket, which I've just registered for. Will be great fun.

BTW, it’s neither: I inhale it. Unburned petrol

[Dakhar]

I'm also sketical of the number of millionaires here, but who cares. If people want to lie on an anonymous poll I hope it makes them feel better.

I would also agree with the posters that state that to have an upper middle class lifestyle here is actually more expensive than in the west and the quality is often lower.

It is possible to live cheaply here, millions of Thais do it. But if you want a western standard of living with western quality goods and services you pay more than in the Europe and way more than in the US.

Many things are cheaper in Thailand because they are far lower quality. When you want western quality, that means western brand names, which is usually more expensive.

The main things that are cheaper are personal services (of ALL kinds!) because Thai people are cheap. Having a maid and driver are luxuries in the west, whereas BMW sells more 3 series cars in the UK than Ford sells Mondeos so having a BMW is no longer a luxury. Electronic goods are more expensive at anything above the lower end.

Clothes aren't any cheaper if you buy genuine western brands. If you don't, then the quality is generally poor.

Food is cheaper and restaurants are cheaper, but the quality is very variable and health and sanitation is so terrifying you can't even start to think about it compared to a western restaurant.

Accomodation is somewhat cheaper unless you decide you want western standard accomodation, when its no longer cheaper. A 150 Sqm apartment to western standards of construction, fitting, fixtures and finish is $5k a month in a good area of bangkok, and probably $4k a month in a good area of Los Angeles for example. And even then the actual quality of "luxury" property is often poor with bizarre pennypinching and lack of attention to detail and lack of trained fitting and installation. Electrical and plumbing systems here are a joke, no matter how much you pay.

Cars are so much more highly priced you end up driving something a trailer park resident in the US would reject or you tie up a large amount of capital in a non-productive "asset"

Other services such as TV channels, internet, mobile phones, etc. are all vastly inferior AND more expensive!

Many goods and products are simply unavailable. I'd love to have the new Amazon Kindling for example. Impossible here.

You need to make a LOT of money here to match the lifestyle you would have in the West. People who say its cheap to live here are finding it cheap because they've willingly downgraded their standard of living to include mostly those things that are cheap in Thailand while abandoning many of the things that aren't.

I could say it was cheap to live in the US if I lived in a rural trailer park, ate Costco food and drove a ten year old pickup.

I wish I would thos post had been posted about 3 years a go. Here I sit with a fan blowing on me. (although now that I am more pro green I don't mind so much)

But the point is this is accurate. The finer things in life are essentially un-obtainable here. For several reasons. One the market can not sustain it, & if it is actually imported here, ther price is set so dang high due to taxes & low market demand, wich equals low volume whole sale purchases, which ultimately equals higher retail prices.

BUT here is something of a difference. In the US, I had a good job, 6 figure income, lived in a very modest town house, mortgage was about 690$ a month. For the size, I could not have rented for less money. Now, we had 2 cars, paid for, college loans paid for. Essentially zero debt.

I spent money on every day things, food, restaraunts etc... but noth extravagant. But I was able to spend money on not count what was in my wallet. I imagine we spent maybe 3K a month on all our bills and pocket money.... and saved around 4K a mont (post tax dollars)

In Thailand, standard of living has shifted (for the worse) The quality of items around me is pure junk, except for my i-pod, camry etc.... and I spend money just as I did in the states. Combined the wife and I spend about 35K a month, and this is no mortgage & no rent. (we have to travel a lot, and for us we tend to spend more due to that, I think)

But we also save about 4K USD a month (post tax)

So here I am, sleeping on the floor, to save what I saved in the US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Living in an unhealthy, unsanitary, uneducated environment. Living in a place where people commonly shout F---- U just for sport.

Durian... ? I don't even like Durian!!!!!!

But then again, at least I am not paying to support a war... got to look at the positives.

[LaoPo]

Yeah, OK for some reason I thought you were in Phuket, as I am. Malaysia's a bit far from Pattaya I concede.

But you said you 'missed your cars'. So I offer a generic solution for Southern Thai petrolheads - import through Malaysia. Believe me, it works. And the northern part of Malaysia's N-S highway is bloody excellent: it puts many Western European roads to shame. I drove it three weeks ago so know what I'm talking about. Haven't gone south from KL to Sing yet though, so I can't reliably comment on that part.

There's a Cannonball 8000 rally next April, from Singapore to Phuket, which I've just registered for. Will be great fun.

BTW, it’s neither: I inhale it. Unburned petrol

..Wow...

that's exciting stuff:

http://www.cannonball8000.com/sea/rally-2009/

LaoPo

[JimmyCA]

WOW about 30% worth over 30 m baht or about one million US .......... very unlikely

I would guess many more are worth less than 5m than over 40 m

Good place to lie about riches though

[LaoPo]

WOW about 30% worth over 30 m baht or about one million US .......... very unlikely

I would guess many more are worth less than 5m than over 40 m

Good place to lie about riches though

1 $ Million isn't 1 $ Million 'old buying power' anymore...

30 Million Baht is GBP 482K

30 Million Baht is Euro 600K

Many houses in the UK and mainland Europe surpass those figures, easy.

LaoPo

[LivinLOS]

Yeah, OK for some reason I thought you were in Phuket, as I am. Malaysia's a bit far from Pattaya I concede.

But you said you 'missed your cars'. So I offer a generic solution for Southern Thai petrolheads - import through Malaysia. Believe me, it works. And the northern part of Malaysia's N-S highway is bloody excellent: it puts many Western European roads to shame. I drove it three weeks ago so know what I'm talking about. Haven't gone south from KL to Sing yet though, so I can't reliably comment on that part.

There's a Cannonball 8000 rally next April, from Singapore to Phuket, which I've just registered for. Will be great fun.

BTW, it’s neither: I inhale it. Unburned petrol

..Wow...

that's exciting stuff:

http://www.cannonball8000.com/sea/rally-2009/

LaoPo

WARNING OT::

Nice stuff.. What motor do you have to drive it ??

I was tempted to do the cannonball, my brother and I have often talked about it, should have done when I had my own fast(ish) cars and access to other peoples tasty motors really. This one seems a bit short at just 3 days.. Plus I kinda like the adventure aspect a bit more or long rough 3rd worldy rallys, I missed doing a mongol rally with a lad from UK last year and didnt even know that the League of Adventurists had started a Latin run doing Ecuador to Rio for carnival this year until too late to attempt it !! We did make the Monsoon madness across india last year with the Indian Auto Rickshaw challenge (the motor sport for the clinically insane !!).. Great fun stuff. I am even looking at organizing something with some lads who write for loaded and the 'lad mags' for the Cambo Mambo next year.

Post pics and stuff when you do the rally.. I would be dead keen to see how this goes.

[siamamerican]

WOW about 30% worth over 30 m baht or about one million US .......... very unlikely

I would guess many more are worth less than 5m than over 40 m

Good place to lie about riches though

I think they are telling the truth. The welll off are more likely to take part in the poll. The less fortunate probably don't want to be reminded how poor they are and don't bother participating.

As for $1mil not being that much, I don't agree. Most Americans and Europeans retire with much less. A Federal Reserve survey in 2004 showed the mean net worth of 55-64 year old to be $248k. My bet is the 45-54 year old expats living in Thailand mean net worth is about the same.

[LivinLOS]

Yes but the average people are perhaps less likely to be retiring off to sunny climes.. I think average people even if it is within thier means to do so, may have been conditioned by life to play safe.

[siamamerican]

Yes but the average people are perhaps less likely to be retiring off to sunny climes.. I think average people even if it is within thier means to do so, may have been conditioned by life to play safe.

Probably true, but I seriously doubt there are as many expats with 40m than there are with 5m. Not the impression I get when in Thailand, but I'm not in the habbit of asking people what they are worth.

[Naam]

Good place to lie about riches though

give me one good reason why somebody would participate in an anonymous poll and lie. i have met personally several well known members of Thaivisa and we discussed investing and finances. except for one their net worth was far in excess of a million dollars. big deal? i don't think so

[Naam]

So ,according to the poll,30% of the respondents are millionaires in $US terms,, what would be the % of millionaires in the expat community as a whole I wonder.

Not that I would for one second think that the posters here would be given to stretching the truth,but 30% expat millionaires residing in a developing nation that is not even a"tax haven".

but it IS a tax haven Ozzydom. and that even applies to Thais who's offshore income / capital gains are not taxed (unless they are stupid enough to repatriate their dough officially).

[LivinLOS]

Good place to lie about riches though

give me one good reason why somebody would participate in an anonymous poll and lie. i have met personally several well known members of Thaivisa and we discussed investing and finances. except for one their net worth was far in excess of a million dollars. big deal? i don't think so

I tend to hang around with quite a few barflys and low lifes.. But I dont think a single one of them are on here..

At the other end of the spectrum I know a couple of people in real life that are on here, 2 are almost certainly in excess of 1m USD and another is 10x that.. However all of them live fairly low key lives, drive honda type unassuming cars, etc etc.

How relevant that is could be debated, Phuket probably skews the net wealth upwards a little compared to issan. Then theres the oil guys I know who work rotations, many of them own western real estate and make 150k USD a year, tho I would guess many would fall under the 1m level now.

Have this question sat in a wine / cocktail place in Surin / Bang Tao / the marinas etc then I think you would have that % with assets easy.. Have the same conversation in a pattaya beer bar and I doubt it. So really it just depends who the voters were.

[Naam]

But you said you 'missed your cars'.

i miss them indeed Jingjok but (as mentioned) only in "context" of my home country's autobahns. it doesn't make any sense to own a fancy car in Thailand for driving. but for me it does make sense buying an old car (the car of my dreams when i was still a poor boy 1961 in high school), polish it every other day, take out the carburettors, disassemble them, clean them, put them back, open the rear axle differential after draining the oil, check on wear and tear of the gears and reassemble it... tell my wife's driver "don't even dream of driving this car!" and... and... and... dreams of an old man who is striving to make a few of his dreams come true before he conks off.

[JimmyCA]

Good place to lie about riches though

give me one good reason why somebody would participate in an anonymous poll and lie. i have met personally several well known members of Thaivisa and we discussed investing and finances. except for one their net worth was far in excess of a million dollars. big deal? i don't think so

that one you will have to figure out for yourself

for sure the TV posters are no USD millionaires

[Dakhar]

Good place to lie about riches though

give me one good reason why somebody would participate in an anonymous poll and lie. i have met personally several well known members of Thaivisa and we discussed investing and finances. except for one their net worth was far in excess of a million dollars. big deal? i don't think so

that one you will have to figure out for yourself

for sure the TV posters are no USD millionaires

as for this one.... not yet

But I hope it does happen. I know a lot of people will say a million is not much any more. Well that may be true, but it is still my goal.

[Mobi]

So ,according to the poll,30% of the respondents are millionaires in $US terms,, what would be the % of millionaires in the expat community as a whole I wonder.

Not that I would for one second think that the posters here would be given to stretching the truth,but 30% expat millionaires residing in a developing nation that is not even a"tax haven".

but it IS a tax haven Ozzydom. and that even applies to Thais who's offshore income / capital gains are not taxed (unless they are stupid enough to repatriate their dough officially).

As a retiree in Thailand with all my investments and investment income offshore from Thailand and the UK, I don't pay a Baht of tax here. I just transfer funds to Thailand for my day to day living expenses, and these sums are not subject to tax.

As a UK citizen who has been non resident in the UK for more than 5 years, not only is my offshore investment income free of UK tax, but I have also transferred my UK personal pension scheme to a QROP trustee, based in Hong Hong, and the income from that too is no longer subject to UK tax. (this was all possible following recent changes in pension legislation - thanks very much Mr Brown )

So I pay no tax anywhere in the world and it is all legal and above board.

[Naam]

Good place to lie about riches though

give me one good reason why somebody would participate in an anonymous poll and lie. i have met personally several well known members of Thaivisa and we discussed investing and finances. except for one their net worth was far in excess of a million dollars. big deal? i don't think so

for sure the TV posters are no USD millionaires

you are not?

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

To be a USD millionaire is getting easier by the day with the exchange rate going south.

But is the fact that one pays nothing in tax something to be proud of? Or is it just me?

[teej]

1 $ Million isn't 1 $ Million 'old buying power' anymore...

30 Million Baht is GBP 482K

30 Million Baht is Euro 600K

Many houses in the UK and mainland Europe surpass those figures, easy.

LaoPo

Have to agree. 1 million USD buys you a 1-2 br 700-800sqft apt in the expat areas of Central, Hong Kong -- so basically nothing. And most of these are owned by people renting to expat bankers, etc at around 5kUSD/month. The owners live further up the hill.... midlevels-central up to the peak and you're talking 5-50 million USD easy for "average" wealthy. I'd even go so far as to say at 5 million USD you're the poor bastard of Mid-Levels.

5 million is the new 1 million (USD).

If you haven't that, keep working. Unless you're the pad krapao guy -- then enjoy the runs (aka "loose bowel movements" for the non-American slangers).

As for wealth on TV: I'd say a few years ago on TV there were a lot more poor bastards pretending to be wealthy jet-setters, but now loads have gone home tails between their legs (and an STD as a parting gift). 30% of TV members over 1 million USD net worth? Who can be sure? But I do know personally a couple of members that have significant wealth. Older gents, yes. But they are not lying.

[Mobi]

To be a USD millionaire is getting easier by the day with the exchange rate going south.

But is the fact that one pays nothing in tax something to be proud of? Or is it just me?

It's not a question of being proud. It's a question of maximising one's after tax income. I doubt there are many in this world who wouldn't do that, given the chance.

I paid a huge amount of UK Tax for most of my life - probably more than most earn in salaries, so I don't have to feel any guilt trip about being 'tax efficient' in my old age - ably assisted by the British Government who offers me no social support nor medical assistance, even if I were to go back and beg for it.

I'm not proud - just happy.

But I wonder if there is a little envy creeping in there.....

[siamamerican]

Have to agree. 1 million USD buys you a 1-2 br 700-800sqft apt in the expat areas of Central, Hong Kong -- so basically nothing. And most of these are owned by people renting to expat bankers, etc at around 5kUSD/month. The owners live further up the hill.... midlevels-central up to the peak and you're talking 5-50 million USD easy for "average" wealthy. I'd even go so far as to say at 5 million USD you're the poor bastard of Mid-Levels.

5 million is the new 1 million (USD).

If you haven't that, keep working. Unless you're the pad krapao guy -- then enjoy the runs (aka "loose bowel movements" for the non-American slangers).

As for wealth on TV: I'd say a few years ago on TV there were a lot more poor bastards pretending to be wealthy jet-setters, but now loads have gone home tails between their legs (and an STD as a parting gift). 30% of TV members over 1 million USD net worth? Who can be sure? But I do know personally a couple of members that have significant wealth. Older gents, yes. But they are not lying.

"poor bastards" - isn't that nice of you. Well, you must be one the rich bastards. Insulting people with less money, assuming you have a lot of it, is of poor character.

If you haven't got 5 million and you need it, keep working. If you don't mind the occasional runs and do without luxury items, you need much less than 5 million. I make a lot of money, I would venture to say that I make more than you, but enjoy the simple things in life. Nothing wrong with indulging if that is what makes you happy, but why insult others that don't have the same needs.

I thought this thread was in regards to Thailand. The real estate values in HK, doesn't seem relevant.

[bendix]

for sure the TV posters are no USD millionaires

Utter nonsense.

[Naam]

To be a USD millionaire is getting easier by the day with the exchange rate going south.

But is the fact that one pays nothing in tax something to be proud of? Or is it just me?

i don't think anybody is "proud" because he/she is not paying (income) tax. we all pay indirect taxes galore. the more money we spend on any goods or services the more taxes we pay. there's also no reason to be proud for those who pay income tax. but they have the sympathy of us who don't pay

[Naam]

But I wonder if there is a little envy creeping in there.....

envy? no way Mobi! why would anybody envy people like you (or me) who have monthly electricity bills exceeding 10,000 Baht? they PITY us! and if we were allowed (unfortunately that's against forum rules) to publish our bank accounts they'd be contributing with alms

[teej]

"poor bastards" - isn't that nice of you. Well, you must be one the rich bastards. Insulting people with less money, assuming you have a lot of it, is of poor character.

If you haven't got 5 million and you need it, keep working. If you don't mind the occasional runs and do without luxury items, you need much less than 5 million. I make a lot of money, I would venture to say that I make more than you, but enjoy the simple things in life. Nothing wrong with indulging if that is what makes you happy, but why insult others that don't have the same needs.

I thought this thread was in regards to Thailand. The real estate values in HK, doesn't seem relevant.

siamamerican - apologize for poor word choice. I should have said something like 'loser' instead of 'bastard.' Oh wait, that's not nice either. Hmm... I'm sorry, my elitist mind does not compute for politically correct....

Congrats, you probably make more money than I do, as I retired 2.5 years out of University. That was almost 7 years ago now, and I'm 30. Which brings me to a point that should be factored into any net worth calculation: age. 5 million at 30yrs old vs. 5 million at 85yrs old are two very different animals. But you're da man for making more than me. No, you really are.

Real estate values in HK were in response to LaoPo's post regarding how little 1 million USD buys you nowadays (his reference was the UK and Europe, mine was HK).

I don't mean to be insulting, it's just that being young, rich, and good-looking takes it's toll on you, you know? I mean it's really hard to get used to. Always being told how good-looking you are, how talented you are, how you never fail at anything -- it's hard to live up to such high expectations, you feeling me? Mo' money mo' problems as Biggie Smalls put it.

Oh well, chalk it up to my poor character i reckon. I feel so... so.... empty.... almost like I have insecurities that I must actively try to cover up by being elitist.... not.

Edit: not.

Edited April 15, 2008 by teej

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

To be a USD millionaire is getting easier by the day with the exchange rate going south.

But is the fact that one pays nothing in tax something to be proud of? Or is it just me?

I'm not proud - just happy.

But I wonder if there is a little envy creeping in there.....

OK Mobi, you have probably done you duty wrt taxes, and that is fine. Same probably for Naam.

But envy? Why would I envy you? From reading your many posts on several sub-forums, to envy you, your life, your mansion and your wife is very low on my agenda. And I do not pity you either, I just don't care.