Russian Arms Dealer Arrested in Thailand

[Crushdepth]

FARC...

I bet that's what he said when the cops pulled him up

[Plus]

The Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) make this a entirely different ball game.

What I meant to say is that the US has to bring charges first. So far at the top of this page it says "Thailand to drop charges.."

[jstumbo]

The Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) make this a entirely different ball game.

What I meant to say is that the US has to bring charges first. So far at the top of this page it says "Thailand to drop charges.."

The US is trying to extradite him. They cannot do that without charges, so I am sure that charges have been filed in the US.

[Plus]

I am sure that charges have been filed in the US.

Are you?

They have to present these charges to the Thai government.

[bangkokbilly]

I am sure that charges have been filed in the US.

Are you?

They have to present these charges to the Thai government.

He's been charged - see post 108 above and the information below. The charges have been presented to the Thais as that is part of the formal extradition request.

Viktor Bout Indicted for Conspiracy to Kill Americans & Related Terrorism Charges

The U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York and the Acting Administrator of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration announced the unsealing of an indictment against international arms dealer Viktor Bout for conspiring to sell millions of dollars worth of weapons to the FARC to be used to kill Americans in Colombia. The indictment, issued in March but sealed until today, supercedes the original complaint against Bout when he was arrested in Thailand on March 6. Bout is still in jail in Thailand pending extradition to the U.S, which the Russian government has intervened to halt. Quoting the press release:

"Between November 2007 and March 2008, Bout agreed to sell to the FARC millions of dollars’ worth of weapons -- including surface-to-air missile systems (SAMs), armor piercing rocket launchers, AK-47 firearms, millions of rounds of ammunition, Russian spare parts for rifles, anti-personnel land mines, C-4 plastic explosives, night-vision equipment, “ultralight” airplanes that could be outfitted with grenade launchers and missiles, and unmanned aerial vehicles. Bout agreed to sell the weapons to two confidential sources working with the DEA (the CSs), who represented that they were acquiring these weapons for the FARC, with the specific understanding that the weapons were to be used to attack United States helicopters in Colombia."

[toptuan]

Today, just watched "Lord of War" for the first time on TRUE satellite. Powerful. Gives a real feeling for how amoral an arms dealer needs to be to ply his trade.

[Kerryd]

Today, just watched "Lord of War" for the first time on TRUE satellite. Powerful. Gives a real feeling for how amoral an arms dealer needs to be to ply his trade.

Sad fact of life. If there wasn't a market for these things, there wouldn't be people willing to meet the need (typical law of supply and demand).

And I'm sure if there weren't any "amoral" arms dealers around, there would be more than enough agents of various governments willing to step in and fill the void.

Unless of course you think all those AKs, RPGs, ammunition and explosives being used around the world were manufactured in people's basements.

[Plus]

I am sure that charges have been filed in the US.

Are you?

They have to present these charges to the Thai government.

He's been charged - see post 108 above and the information below. The charges have been presented to the Thais as that is part of the formal extradition request.

Viktor Bout Indicted for Conspiracy to Kill Americans & Related Terrorism Charges

The U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York and the Acting Administrator of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration announced the unsealing of an indictment against international arms dealer Viktor Bout for conspiring to sell millions of dollars worth of weapons to the FARC to be used to kill Americans in Colombia. ...

Ah, ok. Has it been presented to Thai authorities yet?

Legalities aside, I didn't know FARC were buying weapons to fight Americans in Colombia. I thought it was a sovereign country the US hasn't invaded yet.

[jstumbo]

Most of the cocaine in the world comes from Columbia. The US has been working with Columbia for many years trying to eradicate production of cocaine. They have many troops (some special forces) that help the Columbian army. There are also many DEA agents that work out of Columbia to try to prevent the drugs at the source. All of this at the request and with the permission of the Columbian government. The US actually gives a very large amount of aid to Columbia, a lot of which is tied to the "war on drugs".

They have presented a request to the Thai authorities to extradite him, otherwise when they dropped the charges, they would have released him. The news here has said that there is an extradition request from the US. In order to have an extradition request, there have to be charges, and those charges have to be shown with the request.

Edited May 9, 2008 by jstumbo

[LaoPo]

Today, May 9th, a newspaper in my country reports that Police and the Justice department from the Dutch Antilles on Curacao island (off the coast of Venezuela, LP) were involved in an undercover operation, trying to bring down Mr. Bout. Two undercover agents imposed as two high officers of the FARC in Colombia and talked with a close ally of Mr. Bout. The negotiations took place in a hotel room on Curacao and were filmed.

The two officers were granted permission by the Attorney General of the Dutch Antilles and were brought into action by the DEA from the US.

The undercover agents asked for 800 SAM missiles to be delivered to the FARC Rebel army/Colombia. The ally of Mr. Bout was able to deliver 100 SAM missiles at once. Further is was agreed upon to deliver land mines, C4 explosives and 5.000 AK-47 rifles, all from Bulgaria.

Free -short- translation.

LaoPo

[TAWP]

The charges are still a pile of crock.

They can charge him for selling arms to embargoed countries, but they cannot charge him for conspiracy to kill Americans! First of all, it was a sting operation, ergo it would never happen. Secondly, he is an arms dealer, not a mercenary. He sells guns, he doesn't conspire to kill anyone.

What's next, charge BMW with conspiracy to kill Americans on the highways in the US?

Oh, and don't forget that the biggest arms dealers are STILL a few selected COUNTRIES (in some cases individuals tied very closely to the government).

When can we see the extradition of the US Congress for the related crimes?

This is no more than one big seller getting rid of a competitor.

[Supaporn]

Oh, and don't forget that the biggest arms dealers are STILL a few selected COUNTRIES (in some cases individuals tied very closely to the government).

When can we see the extradition of the US Congress for the related crimes?

And pray tell, what does a comment like this have ANYTHING to do with Thailand?

[bangkokbilly]

I am sure that charges have been filed in the US.

Are you?

They have to present these charges to the Thai government.

He's been charged - see post 108 above and the information below. The charges have been presented to the Thais as that is part of the formal extradition request.

Viktor Bout Indicted for Conspiracy to Kill Americans & Related Terrorism Charges

The U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York and the Acting Administrator of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration announced the unsealing of an indictment against international arms dealer Viktor Bout for conspiring to sell millions of dollars worth of weapons to the FARC to be used to kill Americans in Colombia. ...

Ah, ok. Has it been presented to Thai authorities yet?

Legalities aside, I didn't know FARC were buying weapons to fight Americans in Colombia. I thought it was a sovereign country the US hasn't invaded yet.

Ah, ok - do I stutter ? What is so hard about reading the post before you ask a question?

He's been charged - see post 108 above and the information below. The charges have been presented to the Thais as that is part of the formal extradition request.

[jstumbo]

The charges are still a pile of crock.

They can charge him for selling arms to embargoed countries, but they cannot charge him for conspiracy to kill Americans! First of all, it was a sting operation, ergo it would never happen. Secondly, he is an arms dealer, not a mercenary. He sells guns, he doesn't conspire to kill anyone.

Let's see. I want to kill some high government official. I go to you, a known gun dealer and I tell you that I want to kill this person. You agree to sell me a gun to kill this person. Are you not conspiring to kill this person with me?

For conspiracy, you do not have to do it, you are not being charged with doing it, you are only being charged with conspiring to do it.

[A_Traveller]

Why not read the actual charges which are linked to in post 40 in the thread issued by the DoJ and dated 27th Feb 2008 before posting? <sigh>

Count 1: - He is charged with providing or conspiring to provide 'material support or resources' to the FARC which is designated {1997} by the US to be "Terrorist Organisation".

The meetings in locations including Curaçao, Copenhagen, Bucharest are itemised.

Regards

LINK

Edited May 9, 2008 by A_Traveller

[Plus]

Ah, ok - do I stutter ? What is so hard about reading the post before you ask a question?

He's been charged - see post 108 above and the information below. The charges have been presented to the Thais as that is part of the formal extradition request.

I've read that post again, there's nothing about presenting the charges and submitting extradition request to Thailand, it was Fox News, not Thai media report.

The original charges from Feb/March have been modified, I don't know if they are still relevant to the Thai courts. I also doubt that "conspiring to kill Americans in Columbia" would stick even in Thai court system.

To me it looks like a bangled sting operation, the cowboys planned to whisk him right away without any due process but now got stuck in the legal system.

[bangkokbilly]

Ah, ok - do I stutter ? What is so hard about reading the post before you ask a question?

He's been charged - see post 108 above and the information below. The charges have been presented to the Thais as that is part of the formal extradition request.

I've read that post again, there's nothing about presenting the charges and submitting extradition request to Thailand, it was Fox News, not Thai media report.

The original charges from Feb/March have been modified, I don't know if they are still relevant to the Thai courts. I also doubt that "conspiring to kill Americans in Columbia" would stick even in Thai court system.

To me it looks like a bangled sting operation, the cowboys planned to whisk him right away without any due process but now got stuck in the legal system.

Please read this - http://counterterrorismblog.org/Bout%20Ind...t%20%282%29.pdf.

That is the formal indictment issued by the federal grand jury and the US Attorney (note: it is not Fox News and neither was post 108). The charges are very relevant to a Thai court as they are violations of US law and subject to the MLAT. And just because there's no story in the media regarding the extradition request doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Time will tell but I stand by my original position that he will be extradicted.

[Plus]

I don't quite understand how this "unsealed" thing works. The indictment was issued in March but unsealed only recently. Does it mean that Thais had no access to it, too?

So far they are holding him on made up visa violation charges, I serioulsy doubt that filing extradition request in a high profile case like that would go unnoticed by the Thai media, for months.

I have no idea if he'd be extradited in the end or not, nor do I support the notion that if the US sells arms everyone else is also entitled to it, but so far Bout's case looks as botched as Saddam's WMD hunt, i.e. act first, think later.

[Briggsy]

It is now approaching the 84-day limit after which uncharged prisoners must be released. Will this have any bearing in this case, I wonder. Or will Mr Bout continue to be held under the extradition request.

Back in post 101, a Thai police spokesman said the hearing would last about 60 days. Have the hearings begun? If they started on receipt of the request, we should be halfway through the hearings by now. I'm sure there are furious negotiations going on, possibly covering all sorts of inter-continental favours to be traded.

[Kerryd]

It is now approaching the 84-day limit after which uncharged prisoners must be released. Will this have any bearing in this case, I wonder. Or will Mr Bout continue to be held under the extradition request.

Back in post 101, a Thai police spokesman said the hearing would last about 60 days. Have the hearings begun? If they started on receipt of the request, we should be halfway through the hearings by now. I'm sure there are furious negotiations going on, possibly covering all sorts of inter-continental favours to be traded.

Interesting indeed. It was mentioned earlier that Thailand had dropped it's charges against Bout, but continued to hold him without bail.

Perhaps when the deadline passes, he will be able to apply for bail while waiting for the results of the extradition process ?

After all, we know that even convicted murderers have been granted bail (if they are "connected" in the right ways).

I suspect that the US would push to have him remain in custody, as there is little doubt that he is a flight risk (and they would have a hel_l of a hard time catching him again) !

[MekongCombat]

Point of order, Bout was arrested by DEA, not the U.S. Government. It is a fact that there are plenty of people within the U.S. Government and its agencies who did not want Bout to be arrested much less ever be put on trial.

What you have here is DEA overstepping their boundary and jumping into Thailand with a big high fiving arrest for themselves that has pissed onto the wrong set of pentagon authorized combat boots. How will all this end, I suspect very quietly and without as much as a whimper. In all likelyhood Bout will walk right out of the jail and right onto a airplane to go home sooner than later.

[hammered]

Point of order, Bout was arrested by DEA, not the U.S. Government. It is a fact that there are plenty of people within the U.S. Government and its agencies who did not want Bout to be arrested much less ever be put on trial.

What you have here is DEA overstepping their boundary and jumping into Thailand with a big high fiving arrest for themselves that has pissed onto the wrong set of pentagon authorized combat boots. How will all this end, I suspect very quietly and without as much as a whimper. In all likelyhood Bout will walk right out of the jail and right onto a airplane to go home sooner than later.

No doubt there are those in the US government who definitely do not want Mr. Bout talking of other deals unrelated to the FARC sting.

I am, however, a little surprised at your comment that it was the DEA who arrested him. I would have thought that only the Thai authorites would have the power of arrest in Thailand.

[LaoPo]

Point of order, Bout was arrested by DEA, not the U.S. Government. It is a fact that there are plenty of people within the U.S. Government and its agencies who did not want Bout to be arrested much less ever be put on trial.

What you have here is DEA overstepping their boundary and jumping into Thailand with a big high fiving arrest for themselves that has pissed onto the wrong set of pentagon authorized combat boots. How will all this end, I suspect very quietly and without as much as a whimper. In all likelyhood Bout will walk right out of the jail and right onto a airplane to go home sooner than later.

No doubt there are those in the US government who definitely do not want Mr. Bout talking of other deals unrelated to the FARC sting.

I am, however, a little surprised at your comment that it was the DEA who arrested him. I would have thought that only the Thai authorites would have the power of arrest in Thailand.

Agreed.

I think he meant to say that it was the DEA who initiated the arrest and maybe they were present but it were certainly not DEA agents factually arresting him on Thai soil.....

That would be nice, wouldn't it...DEA agents flying all over the world, arresting people in every single country.... There are enough 'hidden and secret' operations already

LaoPo

Edited May 20, 2008 by LaoPo

[Kerryd]

I am, however, a little surprised at your comment that it was the DEA who arrested him. I would have thought that only the Thai authorites would have the power of arrest in Thailand.

Yeah, I think MC probably meant that he was arrested (by the Thai police) at the request of the DEA. The DEA set up the sting and had undercover agents there though.

Really, not much different that the Thai police arresting someone at the request of Interpol (as numerous Europeans and some others have found out the hard way).

[Plus]

What abour the report of Bout resisting being put on the plane? Who was escorting him? Thai police or DEA agents?

[MekongCombat]

I am, however, a little surprised at your comment that it was the DEA who arrested him. I would have thought that only the Thai authorites would have the power of arrest in Thailand.

Yeah, I think MC probably meant that he was arrested (by the Thai police) at the request of the DEA. The DEA set up the sting and had undercover agents there though.

Really, not much different that the Thai police arresting someone at the request of Interpol (as numerous Europeans and some others have found out the hard way).

Certainly the Thais made the formal part of the arrest but it was a straight DEA operation from start till end. The Thais were not even informed until the very last second to what was going on. I doubt they even had the name of Bout and certainly had no idea who he was or what he had done until after he had already been handcuffed and led away. Rumor has it the shitt hit the fan as soon as Bout was in custody and the DEA started contacting DC and news agencies to get the attention they were seeking by arresting Bout.

[LaoPo]

I am, however, a little surprised at your comment that it was the DEA who arrested him. I would have thought that only the Thai authorites would have the power of arrest in Thailand.

Yeah, I think MC probably meant that he was arrested (by the Thai police) at the request of the DEA. The DEA set up the sting and had undercover agents there though.

Really, not much different that the Thai police arresting someone at the request of Interpol (as numerous Europeans and some others have found out the hard way).

Certainly the Thais made the formal part of the arrest but it was a straight DEA operation from start till end. The Thais were not even informed until the very last second to what was going on. I doubt they even had the name of Bout and certainly had no idea who he was or what he had done until after he had already been handcuffed and led away. Rumor has it the shitt hit the fan as soon as Bout was in custody and the DEA started contacting DC and news agencies to get the attention they were seeking by arresting Bout.

So, you are saying that the Thai police arrests someone just because the DEA says they want somebody and the Police has no clue who he is ......?

Strange world.

LaoPo

[sonnyJ]

Sounds very possible LaoPo.

Anyway I thought The Lord Of War was a cool movie.

[LaoPo]

Sounds very possible LaoPo.

Anyway I thought The Lord Of War was a cool movie.

Yeah, and so was Snow White and the seven Dwarfs.

LaoPo

[jstumbo]

So, you are saying that the Thai police arrests someone just because the DEA says they want somebody and the Police has no clue who he is ......?

Didn't they first arrest him for being in the country illegally or something like that. Just something to hold him until the extradition could be worked out.