Dharma Army

[thaibebop]

Thaibebop --- there are many issues with the official Thai Sangha (from the leadership down) and the State and religion are intertwined here in a massive way. The issues surrounding Santhi Asoke are various but the major one in my mind is limited to the leadership.

I applaud the activism and grassroots reform they espouse ... just not the bosses. I have actually spent some nights in their compounds and they still scare me and attract me at the same time!

Outside of the SA how is the Thai Sangha ordered? I have always believed that the Thai Sangha didn't have any real leadership just regional respected monks.

[jdinasia]

To start with ... The King appoints the Grand Patriarch .. I will let Camerata fill in whatever details are allowable

[thaibebop]

To start with ... The King appoints the Grand Patriarch .. I will let Camerata fill in whatever details are allowable

Whoa! Never heard that title before. What does the Grand Patriarch do, is he equal to say the Pope?

[jdinasia]

pardon .. Supreme Patriarch ---- google

[Tony Clifton]

I have more questions about DMC than Santi Asoke who seem prety harmless. DMC seem to have adopted the American televangelist style with their own tv channel, giant flying saucer shaped temple decorated with hundreds of life-sized Buddhas and the gold-rimmed glasses wearing monk, where people all wear white and line up to bring money-filled envelopes up front, not to mention what seems to be two well brain washed brain washing spokespersons doing most of the broadcasts and interacting with the monk. The most interesting part for the audience seems to be where people send in letters explaining their personal problems which are read aloud for everyone to hear , even laugh at, almost like a comedy bit. I see it like a mega Tesco-Lotus of temples sucking in all those donations that don`t reach the smaller community temples anymore...

They look like a giant cult to me.

As a hardcore atheist, I find quite scary what this bunch are doing to Buddhism...

I do not mean to offend anyone with these comments and observations but I`m constantly perplexed about DMC when I come across it while skipping tv channels. I'd watch it curiously at the beginning but now find myself wondering about what really goes on in there, seems A LOT OF MONEY is rolling in, where is it all going? My wife even mentioned their involvement in a well known scandal in the past.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[thaibebop]

DMC? What does that stand for? I have never heard of them.

[Plus]

Dhamma Chaya Temple

[camerata]

Whoa! Never heard that title before. What does the Grand Patriarch do, is he equal to say the Pope?

In practice I think it's the Sangha Council that runs the affairs of the Sangha.

[sabaijai]

Re Santi Asoke what I object to most is their seemingly deliberate mistranslations of the pitakas to serve sectarian doctrine, eg the vegetarianism example above (sorry I don't recall the exact terms but they were disturbingly misquoted/misinterpreted).

It reminds me of how the ISKCON (International Society for Krishna Consciousness) movement translated the Bhagavad Gita, for example taking the famous Sanskrit verse yogastah kuru karmani, literally 'standing (or steadfast) in yoga, perform action', and printing it in the English edition of the Gita as 'Do your duty according to Krisna Consciousness', etc.

The Thai orthodoxy, for all its functional flaws, is much more scrupulous about Pali translations than SA, from what I can gather.

Another aspect I find questionable is the cult of personality around Bodhirak, and his claim to be an arahant (some followers believe he's the future Buddha, I've been told).

[bankei]

I think one of the main problems with Bodhirak was that he started ordaining monks without being a licenced uppajaya (upatcha = preceptor). The vinaya states a monk needs to be ordained by a quorum of other monks (4 outside of the middle land, including one monk who acts as preceptor). The preceptor must have at least 10 years as a monk. In Thailand there are additional requirements with only monks passing exams and licencing being allowed to be preceptors. Bodhirak was acting as a preceptor when he only had about 8 years as a monk.

This meant that he was breaking the rules for ordinations and that the people he ordained were not properly ordained monks. I think there were also problems with the places of ordaination not being proper (siima boundaries).

This is one reason why he was kicked out of the sangha.

But there were no doubt other factors such as political with Chamlong and his followers being members.

Bodhirak was also making outlandish claims including to be the reincarnation of an arahat disciple of the Buddha (Sariputta I think). This is impossible according to Theravada as arahats are not reborn. He also made claims to being a sotapanno (stream enterer?). It is a serious offence (parajika) for monks to make false claims of their spiritual attainments - but not way of confirming it as incorrect.

Bodhirak also set out to create a third sect which would not come under the authority of the supreme sangha council.

I beleive Bodhirak has never uttered the verses declaring himself disrobed and that he still maintains that he is a monk - even though he may not be able to wear the monks robes as he would risk arrest.

Many of the monks in his group are properly ordained in the Thai sangha and they chose to associate with the group.

[bankei]

Dhamma Chaya Temple

More commonly "Dhammakaya" in Pali or "Thaamakaay" in thai.

[sabaijai]

DMC? What does that stand for? I have never heard of them.

DMC = Dhamma Media Channel, the movement's 24 hour-a-day cable telecast.

[thaibebop]

DMC? What does that stand for? I have never heard of them.

DMC = Dhamma Media Channel, the movement's 24 hour-a-day cable telecast.

Is there an on-line site for them?

[camerata]

http://www.dmc.tv/index.php?lang=en

http://www.dmc.tv/

And if you want to ordain, I have a URL for that too.

[yellow1red1]

Fast Forward - was searching for why they wore brown robes, found this GEM of a thread! historic in nature.

Answered most of my questions.

The Leader is a former rock and roll star and, yet another, Chinese/Thai, like Thaksin, Sondhi, Abhisit and so on.

One good trip on LSD could explain the whole brown robe incarnation.

[fabianfred]

When asked by a farang woman in our class trip there. An ordained nun answered this question "So, even an ordained nun cannot attain full enlightenment?" thusly: ""Certainly she can, she need only die, come back as a man and become a monk" .....

Utter BS.... IMHO. There is nothing to prevent women from doing the practice and advancing to Arahant. They do not need to become men nor monks in order to do so. BS put about by male chauvanist monks who probably do not practice themselves and do not like to see women making more effort and progress than themselves. There were several females who ordained as Bhikhuni and reached the highest goal in the Buddha's time. My own teacher Supawan Green, I and other followers consider to have reached this state.

Edited February 12, 2011 by fabianfred

[fabianfred]

They wear monk's robes. They just wear brown. They voluntarily left the Thai Sangha some years back (very likely just before they were kicked out). They ordain women as monks. They are vegetarians. They tend to be activists.

I spent some time at Pathom Asoke and found it just a bit offputting. They had one television and whenever it was on there was a monk doing a voice over about the morals etc of what was happening on screen. Their communal PA system made me think of what it would be like living in a re-education center. However, their model of communal living was impressive and the people there seemed happy.

Further --- and anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong--- the leader proclaimed himself fully enlightened (a no no in Buddhism) and announced the coming day he would die.

I see how some of these things would be off putting, but I support Nuns, women should be able to practice the Dharma. I see nothing wrong with vegetarians or activists. I would be concerned about someone claiming to be a Buddha, but I would want to look closer at their actions before I condemn all around.

Only Mahayana equate enlightenment with being a Buddha.

Theravada see Arahant as having reached Nirvana, but to a lesser degree of attainment and ability as a Buddha. Not the same thing.

[yellow1red1]

Does Asoke in name copy from Ashoka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_the_Great#Buddhist_conversion ?

[IMA_FARANG]

I know this is slighly off topic...so I'll apologise in advance.

However, as the subject of female nuns and the subject of possible "enlightenment" was previously mentioned in posts on this topic just let me say this....

The only person I ever saw who could be considered "enlightened"...I wouldn't even attempt to say that she actually was...was a Vietnamese female nun...considered by the local Vietnamese to be especially revered.

I was barely 21 years old then, full of my own assumed self-importance, and didn't give one hoot about any silly Buddhisim then. But even when I met her she impressed me. She seemed to glow from inside, and she laughed a lot. The only reason I went there was because of this Vietnamese girl I was interested in and later married...she wanted me to meet this nun...I didn't know why.

That was 44 years ago now, and my life has changed drastically since that time. I even call myself a Buddhist.

I don't think I ever knew that nun's name, and I surely don't now. But I still remember that nun.

I still remember her laughter and that glow she seemed to have.

[Xangsamhua]

I know this is slighly off topic...so I'll apologise in advance.

However, as the subject of female nuns and the subject of possible "enlightenment" was previously mentioned in posts on this topic just let me say this....

The only person I ever saw who could be considered "enlightened"...I wouldn't even attempt to say that she actually was...was a Vietnamese female nun...considered by the local Vietnamese to be especially revered.

I was barely 21 years old then, full of my own assumed self-importance, and didn't give one hoot about any silly Buddhisim then. But even when I met her she impressed me. She seemed to glow from inside, and she laughed a lot. The only reason I went there was because of this Vietnamese girl I was interested in and later married...she wanted me to meet this nun...I didn't know why.

That was 44 years ago now, and my life has changed drastically since that time. I even call myself a Buddhist.

I don't think I ever knew that nun's name, and I surely don't now. But I still remember that nun.

I still remember her laughter and that glow she seemed to have.

This might interest you Ima. And it links to the topic of the thread. I haven't read much of the thread, so if it's already been posted I apologize.

What is in it for us women?

If Dhammakaya is a religious reform movement in response to our Sangha

community's inability to keep up with events, my interest as a woman is what

better deal has it in store for us women? Mainstream Theravada Buddhism,

unlike Mahayana Buddhism, doesn't ordain women as Bhikkhuni, a female

equivalent of monks.

Rights groups have sought female ordination, but to no avail. The Sangha

argues that the Bhikkhuni lineage in Theravada Buddhism ceased long ago,

making new ordination - which requires the presence of Bhikkhuni - technically

impossible. But women groups contend that some Bhikkhuni orders now can be

traced to the Theravada lineage, so ordination is indeed possible.

The Sangha fathers remain adamant. Which is understandable. It boils down to

power: the male-dominated order wants to continue excluding women from

entering and sharing monks' sphere of authority.

Though barred from ordination, women have always been more active temple

supporters than men. Women's greater financial independence today has made

their donations even more substantial.

If the Sangha wants to be relevant to modern women, it must have a better

answer to religious discrimination. If not, women will go elsewhere.

Santi Asoke, the reformist, anti-consumerism sect, for example, has apparently

adapted to women's needs by agreeing to ordain female ascetics called

Sikkhamart. To be eligible, the Sikkhamart must go through rigid testing over

years before they receive ordination approval from the Sikkhamart community.

The brown-robed Sikkhamart, though inferior to Santi Asoke monks, are active

teachers and have the great respect of lay followers. This is in stark

contrast to the image of traditional white-robed nuns who aren't even

recognised legally and are often exploited as temple maids.

What about the capitalist Dhammakaya? One of the temple's most revered

founders is nun Jand Khonseenokyoong, a disciple of the late Luang Por Sod

Chantasaro who made popular the Dhammakaya meditation technique. It was she

who taught meditation to Phra Dhammachayo, now worshiped by his followers as

the Messiah and a reincarnation of the Original Element of Dhammakaya,

whatever that means. Add the fact that the temple is targeting urban, well-

educated Thais, one might conclude that Dhammakaya is more gender sensitive.

I made that mistake about 10 years ago. During an interview with deputy abbot

Phra Dhattacheewo, I asked him about Dhammakaya's view on women's spiritual

status.

Women, he said, are spiritually inferior to men, which is why they are born

women in the first place. If they want to be born on a higher spiritual plane

in future lives, they must practise dhamma and make merit harder in this life

so they can be reborn men.

That's right. Despite its sophisticated facade, use of modern technology to

propagate its teachings, and effective corporate-like management, Dhammakaya

is as chauvinistic as the traditionalist Sangha. This may partly explain why

there's no female ordination at Dhammakaya.

Meanwhile, the popularity of Dhammakaya among middle-class, urban women should

make feminists re-think the class dimensions which retard the women's

movement. Also, the diverse aspirations of women in different classes and

communities.

As for Dhammakaya's traditionalism, when the controversial 30-000-million-baht

chedi is finally completed, who knows if its core area will end up a no-women

zone like other traditional religious sites? I wouldn't be one bit surprised.

* Sanitsuda Ekachai is Assistant Editor, Bangkok Post.

BANGKOK POST - DEC 10, 98

Retrieved from http://www.burmalibrary.org/reg.burma/archives/199812/msg00181.html

Edited October 7, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[Jawnie]

Not to get too far off topic, but the idea that only males can reach full enlightenment is found through all the level of Buddhism. If you think about it, though, as the writer states, it only requires a male body...waiting one more lifetime in a innumerable series of lifetimes. That's not so long and it's not a value judgement. It has to do with being completely endowed with the necessary attributes. Becoming enlightened is a very long process of 'gathering'. It's just that this idea doesn't sit well with purely democratic ideals...

When asked by a farang woman in our class trip there. An ordained nun answered this question "So, even an ordained nun cannot attain full enlightenment?" thusly: ""Certainly she can, she need only die, come back as a man and become a monk" .....

But I am certainly not condemning them as I am in favor of activism and monks being vegetarians etc .. I am just very wary of that group of believers.

I did love their sesame candy though!

[rockyysdt]

So in summary, are you saying that being born (re birth) a woman is indicative of lacking necessary attributes required to become enlightened in that lifetime?

Are you also saying that a man by virtue of being a man is indicative of being endowed with more necessary attributes than a woman for the purposes of enlightenment?

What is enlightenment?

Not to get too far off topic, but the idea that only males can reach full enlightenment is found through all the level of Buddhism. If you think about it, though, as the writer states, it only requires a male body...waiting one more lifetime in a innumerable series of lifetimes. That's not so long and it's not a value judgement. It has to do with being completely sendowed with the necessary attribute. Becoming enlightened is a very long process of 'gathering'. It's just that this idea doesn't sit well with purely democratic ideals...

When asked by a farang woman in our class trip there. An ordained nun answered this question "So, even an ordained nun cannot attain full enlightenment?" thusly: ""Certainly she can, she need only die, come back as a man and become a monk" .....

But I am certainly not condemning them as I am in favor of activism and monks being vegetarians etc .. I am just very wary of that group of believers.

I did love their sesame candy though!

Edited October 15, 2011 by rockyysdt

[Jawnie]

I'm not saying that. I am saying that this topic has been touched on by other Buddhist schools as well.

So in summary, are you saying that being born (re birth) a woman is indicative of lacking necessary attributes required to become enlightened in that lifetime?

Are you also saying that a man by virtue of being a man is indicative of being endowed with more necessary attributes than a woman for the purposes of enlightenment?

What is enlightenment?

Not to get too far off topic, but the idea that only males can reach full enlightenment is found through all the level of Buddhism. If you think about it, though, as the writer states, it only requires a male body...waiting one more lifetime in a innumerable series of lifetimes. That's not so long and it's not a value judgement. It has to do with being completely sendowed with the necessary attribute. Becoming enlightened is a very long process of 'gathering'. It's just that this idea doesn't sit well with purely democratic ideals...

When asked by a farang woman in our class trip there. An ordained nun answered this question "So, even an ordained nun cannot attain full enlightenment?" thusly: ""Certainly she can, she need only die, come back as a man and become a monk" .....

But I am certainly not condemning them as I am in favor of activism and monks being vegetarians etc .. I am just very wary of that group of believers.

I did love their sesame candy though!

[camerata]

The brown-robed Sikkhamart, though inferior to Santi Asoke monks

So, Santi Asoke, which is outside the Sangha and can do what it wants, still doesn't give females equality. No surprise there, this being Thailand.

there's no female ordination at Dhammakaya.

Meanwhile, the popularity of Dhammakaya among middle-class, urban women should

make feminists re-think the class dimensions which retard the women's

movement.

Maybe feminists should consider whether the majority of modern women actually want to be bhikkhuni or prefer to be lay supporters.

@Jawnie : The idea that only males can reach full enlightenment may be found through all levels of Buddhism today, but not in the Pali Canon. Female arahants are mentioned in the Canon and, ironically, depicted on at least one temple mural in Bangkok.

@Rocky : "enlightenment" - as applied to Theravada - is just a loose English term for the state attained by stream-enterers, once-returners, non-returners or arahants. As applied to Mahayana, who knows?

[rockyysdt]

Sorry Jawnie.

I must have got that impression when you indicated: "If you think about it, though, as the writer states, it only requires a male body...waiting one more lifetime in a innumerable series of lifetimes. That's not so long and it's not a value judgement. It has to do with being completely endowed with the necessary attribute".

This would be unfortunate if you subscribe to re birth being a moment to moment thing rather than future lives.

NB: When you say that the idea that only males can be enlightened being found through all the levels of Buddhism, do you mean the Sangha or the Dharma?

I'm not saying that. I am saying that this topic has been touched on by other Buddhist schools as well.

So in summary, are you saying that being born (re birth) a woman is indicative of lacking necessary attributes required to become enlightened in that lifetime?

Are you also saying that a man by virtue of being a man is indicative of being endowed with more necessary attributes than a woman for the purposes of enlightenment?

What is enlightenment?

Not to get too far off topic, but the idea that only males can reach full enlightenment is found through all the level of Buddhism. If you think about it, though, as the writer states, it only requires a male body...waiting one more lifetime in a innumerable series of lifetimes. That's not so long and it's not a value judgement. It has to do with being completely sendowed with the necessary attribute. Becoming enlightened is a very long process of 'gathering'. It's just that this idea doesn't sit well with purely democratic ideals...

When asked by a farang woman in our class trip there. An ordained nun answered this question "So, even an ordained nun cannot attain full enlightenment?" thusly: ""Certainly she can, she need only die, come back as a man and become a monk" .....

But I am certainly not condemning them as I am in favor of activism and monks being vegetarians etc .. I am just very wary of that group of believers.

I did love their sesame candy though!

Edited October 19, 2011 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

The brown-robed Sikkhamart, though inferior to Santi Asoke monks

So, Santi Asoke, which is outside the Sangha and can do what it wants, still doesn't give females equality. No surprise there, this being Thailand.

(From the wilds of Brisbane.) Please note that I was quoting an article by Sanitsuda Ekachai; they are not my words.

I don't know if the sikkhamart are considered as "inferior" in the Asoke sangha. I doubt it, but, as you say, this being Thailand, I believe it takes them longer to be ordained. Women are scrutinized more closely than men in any society. Thailand is no more phallocentric than many other nations. The largest single religion in the world, overseen by a clerical elite in Rome, will not allow women to be ordained at all. Islam is in no hurry to raise the status of women. Protestant Christianity and Reform Judaism are quite radical in appointing women clergy.

[Jawnie]

When I was with a Tibetan center in the US many years ago, women were not allowed to work on certain sacred art projects. Slowly, slowly, though, the Head Lama began to allow them to work on them. He said at that time that it was the first time women had worked on these kinds of art projects in 1,200 years. Now, it's not an issue for that particular organization, women participate fully. Perhaps these particular teachings simply need the light of democratic principles shined on them a little. Those with the right intention and flexible minds will respond appropriately, I think.

The brown-robed Sikkhamart, though inferior to Santi Asoke monks

So, Santi Asoke, which is outside the Sangha and can do what it wants, still doesn't give females equality. No surprise there, this being Thailand.

(From the wilds of Brisbane.) Please note that I was quoting an article by Sanitsuda Ekachai; they are not my words.

I don't know if the sikkhamart are considered as "inferior" in the Asoke sangha. I doubt it, but, as you say, this being Thailand, I believe it takes them longer to be ordained. Women are scrutinized more closely than men in any society. Thailand is no more phallocentric than many other nations. The largest single religion in the world, overseen by a clerical elite in Rome, will not allow women to be ordained at all. Islam is in no hurry to raise the status of women. Protestant Christianity and Reform Judaism are quite radical in appointing women clergy.