Impending World Wide Economic Depression,

[GuestHouse]

I like this term 'learned lecturers' .... followed by

i had enough grassroot contacts to realize that any potential resentment from this corner does neither affect my life style nor our stay in Thailand.

Then perhaps you'll accept that others have had enough grass roots contact too and have come to their own conclusions.

There are two opinions here which is right/which is wrong?

Only time will tell if there is resentment amongst Thais against foreigners and only and economic depression will demonstrate if resentment increases (occurs) against foreigners during an ecconomic downturn.

I say resentment exists and I say I would expect it to increase under economic pressure.

You say, that you, your gardner, your driver and your maid disagree with me.

But then my boss might be fool enough to believe I agree with him on all things.

[Naam]

You say, that you, your gardner, your driver and your maid disagree with me.

perhaps you should brush up your english GuestHouse to understand my postings better i never said "our employees disagree with you" but just stated a relevant fact based on my day to day experience with them. also i would like to know why you think you are an expert in "thai nationalistic thinking and resentment" although you work in Saudi Arabia. can you beat nearly three decades of personal experience? if yes, state your reasons.

[ray23]

Recession being an American paid in dollars for my retiremetn been one around my house o for at leat a yaer. Depression only when I tink to muk.

Maybe I'm really out of touch, our huosing complex is 12 198 units, about 38 farrangs live in the area. The truly expensive house are owned by Thai's not farrangs. If you went into one of my neighbors houses you will find essentially the same thing I have. Biggest difference I'm retire they are not. But many of the farrangs here are still in the work world outside of Thailand.

I didn't go to the village build the house that was out of reach for my neighbors. So I experience very little resentment here.

I have a comfortable life but hardly welathy one. I don't throw money around and didn't before the recession hit in my household. Do I have more then some in a small village yes. Heck I donl even see the typical farrang drunk so often referrred to I live quietly and pretty much try to mind my own bi uiness. My wife does the same.

Will there be and is ther resentment towards farrangs. Yes there is some of it is well earned by a small group. I think we just saw some of it in the last political period here. But that didn't come from my Issan neghbors. I did see the powers to become very interested in our forums and what we were thinking. The reason for I don't understand we have no standing nor power in any form. But yet it happened.

So if thing hg get bad here yes we will be looked at under a magnifying glass. But more then likely in the end thing will resolve and the focus will go elsewhere. But I live in Issan not a tourist area, things may be very different there I have no experience in that sector.

Financially I have adjusted to some extent Thus far. But, I still have a lot of room to adjust if need be.

Are we headed for the great depression agian I don't think so. As to housing historically it goes up and down about every ten years or so. Is this one more severe hasn't played out yet really so hard to say. What is severe is the lack of financing brought about by the current situation. Will we survive this bubble history tell me yes. Will it uncomfortable if it wasn't no one would be complaining.

The paper mill for money in the world I'm guessing so correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the supply of paper money far exceed the gold in the world a long time ago?

That almighty dollar the Euro welcome in shop in New York that tells you something and it's not all doom and gloom. That means tourist from Europe traveling to the states to spend there money. Now if you happen to own one of those shops or your booking the travel thats a pretty good deal. By the way not the first time this has happened I remember articles years ago when Brits were traveling to New York to do thier Christmas shopping. Anyone notice the world didn't end over that?

Does the average American feel the pinch of the dollar losing value not yet. Those who have been laid off do. Read an article where in the cost of fuel would go to $3.70 something in Arizona soon. Heck I'm already paying over $4.00 a gallon for 91 here. So who is feeling that more the state or Thailand.

Difficulties ahead yes, but it ain't over till the fat lady sings and he hasn't gotten on the stage yet.

Elated no, scared no

[jaideeguy]

Guest house....no doubt there will be resentment , but the Thais are not the heartless fools that you imply them to be, at least not in my mooban. The resentment will and should be aimed at the governments and leaders that started this mess [thank you GWB!] and not aimed at the 'hands that feed them'.

By the way, GH...where is your mooban??

[mellow1]

Anyways with the philosophy of self sufficiency, there is no one else to blame, therefore no resentment.

[GuestHouse]

also i would like to know why you think you are an expert in "thai nationalistic thinking and resentment" although you work in Saudi Arabia.

Three decades of 'Thai experience' - well I can't match that, especially since I don't count my 'visits' to Thailand - but I can come up with over a decade of living and working in professional environment in Thailand, speaking, reading and writing the language. - By professional environment I mean a working Professional Environment' Daily working with and managing Thai - engineers, designers, craftsman, construction workers labourers and as part of my job daily contact with accountants, management professionals, clerical staff etc- Outside of work and while living in Thailand also includes studying at a Thai university and mentoring Masters Degree Projects at another Thai university. Outside of Thailand I continue my day to day working contacts with Thai professional but also in my most recent posting with members of the Thai diplomatic corps.

All in all a quite a lot of experience of working with Thais, managing Thais, being managed by Thais and interacting with Thais across arguably the widest spectrum of Thai society open to a foreigner.

Now I'm not saying that beats nearly three decades of 'Thai experience' (a bit fuzzy on how much time spent living full time in Thailand?!) - but it does give me some experience from which to make observations and judgements.

By the way, GH...where is your mooban??

My wife and I own a number of properties in Thailand (One member of this board knows where they are), I choose not to broadcast that information to others.

Either way - both of you - I have an opinion, and if your counter argument held any water you'd have a better defence than questioning my 'Thai Experience', which incidentally you've failed to call into question.

Edited March 23, 2008 by GuestHouse

[jaideeguy]

I do appreciate your opinion and your vast experience GH...that's why we have this forum.

as to my question 'where is your mooban?' it was just implying that maybe you are out of touch with the average Thai [which reads farmer, vendor, mechanic, shop owner, construction worker etc] with your impressive resume' of MANAGING Thais.

I've been LIVING with these guys and attending their weddings, funerals, house blessings and births and feel that I am a part of my little isolated bubble of a mooban [ all moobans are isolated bubbles] and the people I come in contact with will back me up because we have history......I've helped them and they help me and I honestly don't think that they will turn against me.

Time MAY tell!!

[GuestHouse]

I've been LIVING with these guys and attending their weddings, funerals, house blessings

I've done that too, and I've been MANAGED BY THAIS... So a few more sides of the coin... And as an asside, I have always by choice lived in a Thai neighbourhood.. so I know the old moo baarn thing too.

We ALL OF US have our OWN experiences.

[mellow1]

^ You guys are both the greatest, but I want to read more about the perceived downfall of the USA, the locals going berserk, and the ultimate massacre which we will all suffer.

[jaideeguy]

'We ALL OF US have our OWN experiences'

Yes, we do all have our own experiences and i'm here for the 'long haul' and feel secure in that even if 'the s$$t hits the fan', that I can depend on my neighbors, relatives and friends not to stab me in the back just because I'm a falang. If anything, it will be a humbling experience for me and a confirmation to them that falangs are human and can suffer [and survive] along with them.

Wish you the best GH and thanks for being the 'devil's advocate' on this forum.

[shochu]

uhmmmm,

Some people seem to be on the hunt for a lapse of interpretation, or shall we say reading too much into it.

I think what guesthouse is saying is what history has taught us about not what would hapeen in thailand per se but what generally happens anywhere in the world during tough times.

jaidee,

Again why are you so worried with numerous posts when you seem quite confident that your local friends would not do anything untowards you - which I doubt they would - BUT - should tough times come - then chances are there will be migration from hard hit areas to areas coping better and you can bet these romers would not think about taking to feed themselves and their families.

It's a doggy dog world these days irregardless of where one is - be it thailand - or back home. Everyone seems out for themselves and I think if one is fortunate to live in a small town, or village - perhaps there would be less of this and a much better environment for friendly interaction.

Those who actually think people are appreciative of those that give them paychecks are in need of a reality check. Yes - in some instances there are true feelings among employer and employee - especially if there has been a long relationship AND it has been good - but never assume this - as most employees I see these days only care about the paycheck.

[Naam]

Either way - both of you - I have an opinion, and if your counter argument held any water you'd have a better defence than questioning my 'Thai Experience', which incidentally you've failed to call into question.

your kind of argumentation is quite lame GH. i did not "question" your thai experience but "asked a question" as Jaideegui did with his "where is your moo baan?". that's different!

by the way, your "thai experience" is quite impressive, your logic is not

[siamamerican]

uhmmmm,

Some people seem to be on the hunt for a lapse of interpretation, or shall we say reading too much into it.

I think what guesthouse is saying is what history has taught us about not what would hapeen in thailand per se but what generally happens anywhere in the world during tough times.

jaidee,

Again why are you so worried with numerous posts when you seem quite confident that your local friends would not do anything untowards you - which I doubt they would - BUT - should tough times come - then chances are there will be migration from hard hit areas to areas coping better and you can bet these romers would not think about taking to feed themselves and their families.

It's a doggy dog world these days irregardless of where one is - be it thailand - or back home. Everyone seems out for themselves and I think if one is fortunate to live in a small town, or village - perhaps there would be less of this and a much better environment for friendly interaction.

Those who actually think people are appreciative of those that give them paychecks are in need of a reality check. Yes - in some instances there are true feelings among employer and employee - especially if there has been a long relationship AND it has been good - but never assume this - as most employees I see these days only care about the paycheck.

A somber perspective on today’s society. Are people really more evil and self centered than the past. Every generation seems to make this claim and seem to forget all the evils of their generation. I could list all the evils of the last 75 years and recent events probably would not be in the top 10 worst.

People are the same today: they like to laugh, do the dirty, brag, take vacations, make money, spend money....

Maybe I'm blind to realities or I am evil myself. I did flip off an old lady today for cutting me off and it felt good. Probably weren't jerks like me 50 years ago.

Edited March 23, 2008 by siamamerican

[plachon]

I would suggest that someone in a position to employ a maid, driver and gardener is not exactly in an ideal position to get close enough to grassroots Thailand to register such resentment as GH and others are alluding to. Try throwing off the crutches that wealth and privilege allows for a while and see how one's perspective changes. I suspect not the easiest thing to do, but it might explain why there are different strokes for different folks.

Plachon, if our maid, the gardener and the driver do not belong to thai grassroots then please enlighten me who does belong to it? but that's besides the point which i was trying to make and the underlying topic of this thread which is "economic depression / How will expats in Thailand survive?" based on that i've read a lot of bla-bla and beating around the bush concerning thai resentment vs. foreigners but none of the learned lecturers were specific and could only offer unsubstantiated theories.

i had enough grassroot contacts to realize that any potential resentment from this corner does neither affect my life style nor our stay in Thailand. grassroots do NOT make and apply specific politics. for us foreigners only Bangkok and its politicians count. moreover, my wife and me have in nearly three decades never encountered any resentment from a "nationalistic and proud people" and i wish that every country we lived in and it's people had treated us with the utmost friendly and polite way thai people have treated us and still do

Would it not be beyond the realms of feasibility to appreciate that your servants might talk somewhat differently to people other than their employer, than the way they interact and converse with you. as their "huana"? This simple piece of human nature isn't so hard to understand is it?

And I can assure you that I have spoken with a large number of Thais in many walks of life - servants, factory workers to university lecturers and civil servants - who do have personal resentment to foreigners, including and sometimes, particularly farang, especially over the real or perceived issue of land. But increasingly over the real or perceived loss of Thai womenfolk to the unwashed hordes of invading, farang male folk. If you have "never encountered any resentment", then I can only conclude that you have been living a very sheltered life whilst in Thailand, or you are incapable of picking up the vibes or sometimes blatant messages that are being directed in your direction. Just go to one of the many threads over the last few years, picking apart the various ways in which the simple term "farang" is used, with numerous anecdotes. They are as ubiquitous as fried rice stalls on roadsides.

You say "unsubstantiated theories" - those are not mine, but hundreds of other posters experiences. Some may be true, some not, some exaggerated, but you can't ignore them. I think you have rose-tinted, special filter lenses in your specs Naam.

[realmadrid25]

guesthouse can you please give examples of how this resentment will take form?

[LaoPo]

It's good to see that all posters on this thread agree with each other and the OP got his answers...

We can now wait for the WW Economic Depression

LaoPo

[Naam]

And I can assure you that I have spoken with a large number of Thais in many walks of life - servants, factory workers to university lecturers and civil servants - who do have personal resentment to foreigners, including and sometimes, particularly farang, especially over the real or perceived issue of land. But increasingly over the real or perceived loss of Thai womenfolk to the unwashed hordes of invading, farang male folk. If you have "never encountered any resentment", then I can only conclude that you have been living a very sheltered life whilst in Thailand, or you are incapable of picking up the vibes or sometimes blatant messages that are being directed in your direction. Just go to one of the many threads over the last few years, picking apart the various ways in which the simple term "farang" is used, with numerous anecdotes. They are as ubiquitous as fried rice stalls on roadsides.

You say "unsubstantiated theories" - those are not mine, but hundreds of other posters experiences. Some may be true, some not, some exaggerated, but you can't ignore them. I think you have rose-tinted, special filter lenses in your specs Naam.

for the record Plachon: i don't wear specs but it seems that some of the posters (and that includes you) were blinkers and still discuss the irrelevant "thai folks resentment vs. farangs" and that in context with the OP's initial question "worldwide economic depression - how will expats survive in Thailand?" therefore this discussion has become useless unless we stick to the thread's topic.

i repeat that i don't care about thai resentment, even in case i should encounter it because i am not paranoid. and yes, a zillion times i was referred to as "farang". it hasn't bothered me 30 years ago, it does not bother me today and it will not bother me in the future no matter whether it is said casually or in a derogatory way. the only thing i care about are the politicians in Bangkok who (in my view) are not stupid and restrict the presence of foreigners who bring in money especially during an economic depression. i also repeat that "resentment from grass roots or average thai folks" will cause the politicians to change their views and act in a stupid manner (as implied by some posters) is nothing but an unsubstantiated theory without any logic.

so... are we going back to discuss "how will expats survive?" or keep on discussing the resentment of Thais vs. Farangs and claims that our thai employees would prefer to lose their extremely well paid jobs because they don't like neither my wife nor me (although they don't show it) and are therefore eager to see us deported?

[Heng]

Even if we're not talking about Thais directly employed by foreigners, IMO many local folks simply view farangs the way we might view well to do "successful" hip hop African Americans in the west. Sure, there are a few P. Diddys' and 50 Cents', but the majority are just regular folks that are barely getting by (just look how frustrated so many of them are)... hardly folks you'd think to be angry at.

[CaptHaddock]

>>How did Thailand fare during the 'Great depression' ?? My guess is that they were not greatly affected as they have always been agriculturally based and independent, and probably mostly barter trade....

Thailand was deeply affected by the Great Depression. One effect was the revolution that overthrew the monarchy in 1932.

[jaideeguy]

My main concern is not worrying about the Thai people, but how will immigration [retirement and supporting spouse visas] be affected. When the $ was stronger, they raised the requirements because the baht was weaker....but will they lower it now that the baht is stronger?? I rather doubt it as it's easy to raise your prices than lower them.

[Naam]

My main concern is not worrying about the Thai people, but how will immigration [retirement and supporting spouse visas] be affected. When the $ was stronger, they raised the requirements because the baht was weaker....but will they lower it now that the baht is stronger?? I rather doubt it as it's easy to raise your prices than lower them.

no way!

[Naam]

My main concern is not worrying about the Thai people, but how will immigration [retirement and supporting spouse visas] be affected. When the $ was stronger, they raised the requirements because the baht was weaker....but will they lower it now that the baht is stronger?? I rather doubt it as it's easy to raise your prices than lower them.

i rather think they might raise the stakes to get rid of those farangs who are trying to make an extra buck locally with a side job to make ends meet.

[LaoPo]

My main concern is not worrying about the Thai people, but how will immigration [retirement and supporting spouse visas] be affected. When the $ was stronger, they raised the requirements because the baht was weaker....but will they lower it now that the baht is stronger?? I rather doubt it as it's easy to raise your prices than lower them.

IF the world, and thus Thailand, would suffer from a great depression, I guarantee you that the Thai government AND the people of LOS will open their arms to every Farang AND their Dollars....

They will need you more than they need you in good times.

During the European Great Depression in the '20's and '30's of the past century, people were begging for jobs; they would do ANYTHING for little money to feed their families.

Doctors and lawyers were working low paid jobs; houses were offered for FREE the first three to six months, as long as you were willing to sign a 2-year rental-contract. I could go on.

Don't worry so much.

Remember: in times of great depression, cash is King, always. We will see some tough times ahead in the next 2 to 3 years but a great depression like back than...I don't think so.

LaoPo

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

A recession is when you lose your job.

A depression is when I lose my job.

In the event of a depression where would you rather live. When most everyone in the US owns at least one gun and when you get hungry enough, what will you do for food. I think the US will be a more violent place to live than Thailand. And in Thailand you would not freeze your butt off if you did not have heat. For me LOS wins hands down. Since LOS produces the majority of their own food you are not going to starve, unless of course you go broke.

[Pepe']

Not to sound too presumptuous but if the US crashes everyone goes down...

[mellow1]

Not to sound too presumptuous but if the US crashes everyone goes down...

I think thats whats pissing everyone off.

[altman]

This is the case precisely because there is too much government intervention. The most recent example I can think of is the "North American Free Trade Agreement" or NAFTA for short. If there is going to be free trade between countries then why do governments need to be involved? Any agreement should be a one-line, i.e., "any business in Mexico is free to trade with any business in the US." Instead NAFTA became 900 pages of government rules and regulations. Hardly free trade at all.

perhaps it might be wise to have governments around so that they can define what a business is. surely you wouldn't want cocaine and heroin trafficking to be classed as a business, would you?

but doesn't that open the doors for classification and regulation?

and doesn't that enlightened view of governments providing 'service and protection to the people' lead to further regulations of corporations and businesses which are fundamentally corrupt and exploitive?

and doesn't that .... oh never mind.

[altman]

and back on topic...

many posters have been using depression and inflation as though they were the same thing.

this may be because the way things are now either could prove to be the fatal catalyst.

housing and credit in the usa are in the toilet. so consumers can not buy as much (depression). so revenues are down. so the government prints more money to pay interest on debts to other countries. which causes the value of the dollar to fall. which causes prices to rise (inflation). but higher prices mean fewer people can buy things. which is what started it all.

so which way will the coin fall? and are the effects on farang in thailand the same in both cases?

if things get bad enough, 'cash is king' is going to mean burning it for fire starter.

[jaideeguy]

So, what is KING??? gold? and if gold....for how long?? it keeps going up and the wife still says buy it....wish I had listened to her 5 yrs back.

[Spee]

This is the case precisely because there is too much government intervention. The most recent example I can think of is the "North American Free Trade Agreement" or NAFTA for short. If there is going to be free trade between countries then why do governments need to be involved? Any agreement should be a one-line, i.e., "any business in Mexico is free to trade with any business in the US." Instead NAFTA became 900 pages of government rules and regulations. Hardly free trade at all.

perhaps it might be wise to have governments around so that they can define what a business is. surely you wouldn't want cocaine and heroin trafficking to be classed as a business, would you?

but doesn't that open the doors for classification and regulation?

and doesn't that enlightened view of governments providing 'service and protection to the people' lead to further regulations of corporations and businesses which are fundamentally corrupt and exploitive?

and doesn't that .... oh never mind.

Obvious to everyone except apparently you, my statements were made in the context of the "business" being legitimate in terms of both country's laws. That is not regulation any more than car buying is a legitimate exercise and car stealing is a criminal offense.

As far as providing service and protection, the US constitution (and presumably that of other democracies) makes it a responsibility of the government to provide for the common defense. That would include business and business interests, in addition to individuals.

What point is it that you're really trying to make ... that some level of government is necessary?

If so, I would agree, but as the great satirist PJ O'Rourke once opined, "A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either one of them."