Earthed Or Not

[Eric1949]

Most of the places, mainly homes that I have been to in Thailand have only 2-pin sockets, so have no earth. Also, checking the live/neutral, many are crossed, which is propbably no big deal in AC circuitary.

In the UK many appliances are double earthed (I think that's the term) and are marked as such, therefore only use 2 of the 3 pins on the plugs.

Some of the electricals I buy have 2 round pins, which are a very loose fitting, so I find it best to cut the plug off and replace it with the flat pin type.

Because of the bad fitting plugs and I guess lack of Earth in the wiring circuit, often, when the plug is pulled out, an arcing occurs.

Anyone find same,same?

[spasticated]

<br />Most of the places, mainly homes that I have been to in Thailand have only 2-pin sockets, so have no earth. Also, checking the live/neutral, many are crossed, which is propbably no big deal in AC circuitary.<br />In the UK many appliances are double earthed (I think that's the term) and are marked as such, therefore only use 2 of the 3 pins on the plugs.<br />Some of the electricals I buy have 2 round pins, which are a very loose fitting, so I find it best to cut the plug off and replace it with the flat pin type.<br />Because of the bad fitting plugs and I guess lack of Earth in the wiring circuit, often, when the plug is pulled out, an arcing occurs.<br />Anyone find same,same?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Yes its called "Thai wiring" otherwise known in the west as "freakin lethal" I like the nice bang it makes too whilst arcing and imagine my fingers being too close. In my condo I have one earthed wall socket and one not earthed go figure maybe an add on at a later stage. Just look down any road at the street wiring the words death trap are too kind!!

[Crossy]

The wiring here is most definately fun, we're lucky in that our apartment is actually properly grounded

Have a look here for some useful information http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

I'll never get used to that resounding 'splat!' when plugging stuff in (it happens in the UK too, we just don't see it 'coz the contacts are buried deep in the socket out of harms way), the concept of switched outlets is totally alien here too.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Crossy

[Aries74]

<br />Most of the places, mainly homes that I have been to in Thailand have only 2-pin sockets, so have no earth. Also, checking the live/neutral, many are crossed, which is propbably no big deal in AC circuitary.<br />In the UK many appliances are double earthed (I think that's the term) and are marked as such, therefore only use 2 of the 3 pins on the plugs.<br />Some of the electricals I buy have 2 round pins, which are a very loose fitting, so I find it best to cut the plug off and replace it with the flat pin type.<br />Because of the bad fitting plugs and I guess lack of Earth in the wiring circuit, often, when the plug is pulled out, an arcing occurs.<br />Anyone find same,same?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Yes its called "Thai wiring" otherwise known in the west as "freakin lethal" I like the nice bang it makes too whilst arcing and imagine my fingers being too close. In my condo I have one earthed wall socket and one not earthed go figure maybe an add on at a later stage. Just look down any road at the street wiring the words death trap are too kind!!

[Chang_paarp]

You also forgot to mention that most power points do not have switches, but they only work safely when the active and neutral are in the correct place. My other pet peeve is the use of speaker wire for power cable, well the power cable used in my place is lower quality than the speaker wire I used on my stereo in Oz.

Lets not go into the use of fuses or other devices to ensure safety, they seem to be a total mystery to the Thai system. I am told there are regulations about such things but knowledge or enforcement is not on the horizon at this point in time.

[elkangorito]

I'll never get used to that resounding 'splat!' when plugging stuff in (it happens in the UK too, we just don't see it 'coz the contacts are buried deep in the socket out of harms way), the concept of switched outlets is totally alien here too.

This generally doesn't happen in Australia as all socket outlets must have a built-in switch. Of course, arcing may happen if you choose to plug or unplug an appliance whilst the switch is left in the "on" position but only silly buggers do this.

[Crossy]

I'll never get used to that resounding 'splat!' when plugging stuff in (it happens in the UK too, we just don't see it 'coz the contacts are buried deep in the socket out of harms way), the concept of switched outlets is totally alien here too.

This generally doesn't happen in Australia as all socket outlets must have a built-in switch. Of course, arcing may happen if you choose to plug or unplug an appliance whilst the switch is left in the "on" position but only silly buggers do this.

Actually, I think the UK regs also now require all newly installed outlets to be switched.

[Eric1949]

I'll never get used to that resounding 'splat!' when plugging stuff in (it happens in the UK too, we just don't see it 'coz the contacts are buried deep in the socket out of harms way), the concept of switched outlets is totally alien here too.

This generally doesn't happen in Australia as all socket outlets must have a built-in switch. Of course, arcing may happen if you choose to plug or unplug an appliance whilst the switch is left in the "on" position but only silly buggers do this.

Actually, I think the UK regs also now require all newly installed outlets to be switched.

Regarding switches on sockets, and I stand to be corrected. I have been to the USA about 180 times over the years and cannot remember switched sockets! also in Europe I cannot remember many countries having them. Maybe the US and Europe have other safety methods?

[elkangorito]

I'll never get used to that resounding 'splat!' when plugging stuff in (it happens in the UK too, we just don't see it 'coz the contacts are buried deep in the socket out of harms way), the concept of switched outlets is totally alien here too.

This generally doesn't happen in Australia as all socket outlets must have a built-in switch. Of course, arcing may happen if you choose to plug or unplug an appliance whilst the switch is left in the "on" position but only silly buggers do this.

Actually, I think the UK regs also now require all newly installed outlets to be switched.

Regarding switches on sockets, and I stand to be corrected. I have been to the USA about 180 times over the years and cannot remember switched sockets! also in Europe I cannot remember many countries having them. Maybe the US and Europe have other safety methods?

I couldn't tell you about that but I can say that ever since I was born (in Australia 46 years ago), I've only ever seen switched outlets everywhere. Never have I seen an unswitched outlet in Australia in 46 years.

[elkangorito]

You also forgot to mention that most power points do not have switches, but they only work safely when the active and neutral are in the correct place. My other pet peeve is the use of speaker wire for power cable, well the power cable used in my place is lower quality than the speaker wire I used on my stereo in Oz.

Yes, 2 of my pet peeves about wonderful Thai electrical safety .

Correct polarity is critical for safety.

I work in a college. The classroom floors are concrete. The classroom chairs have steel legs. Pedastal fans are used in the classrooms & are supplied via single insulated "speaker" cable. I've previously inspected these cables & found them to be so severely damaged by the chairs that it is only a matter of time before copper comes into contact with a metal chair leg &....you can guess the rest.

I've tried explaining this potentially lethal situation to my colleagues but they just do the usual stupid thing & "smile" & rave on about Thai electricity being different etc etc. I even pointed out that a teacher may be electrocuted....same result.

Edited March 21, 2008 by elkangorito

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

Not that I do not support the practice of safe se electric city, but are we perhaps just sometimes worrying too much about this issue? How many people are killed per year in Thailand as a result of poor wiring? Is there some reliable stats on this, or are we just guessing?

In my home country far to the north of Europe, with regulations among the most stringent in the world, we have I do think a world record in house fires caused by electric city. Go figure...

Don't want to sound otherwise, but I would like some feedback from Crossy, elkangorito and other upstanding menbers of the forum.

And while on the subject of electric city: Someone asked a while back about the lifespan of a copper grounding rod (earth spear). I did not get the real answer (if there is one), but we have recently refitted a house with a full new 3-phase wiring, and the builder put down a long (about 2 meters) grounding rod. If in a few years the contact between rod and wire withers/oxidises or whatever it is called, will the grounding of the house be compromised? And if so, how do I go about checking this? (The rod is not above ground, so not easily accessible. EDIT: Of course it is not above grond stupid, otherwise how would it be a ground rod? What I meant is that the connection point is not easily accessible). Any help is appreciated. And I can understand if you suggest me to see a psychologist or suchlike...

Ah, final question: is it normal in Thailand that the lights dim/flicker a little when the a/c compressor kicks in? Or do we have a problem with the supply?

Edited for many typos, and inaccuracies.

Edited March 21, 2008 by MeaMaximaCulpa

[Crossy]

but are we perhaps just sometimes worrying too much about this issue?

How many people are killed per year in Thailand as a result of poor wiring? Is there some reliable stats on this, or are we just guessing?

Someone asked a while back about the lifespan of a copper grounding rod (earth spear). I did not get the real answer (if there is one), but we have recently refitted a house with a full new 3-phase wiring, and the builder put down a long (about 2 meters) grounding rod.

Ah, final question: is it normal in Thailand that the lights dim/flicker a little when the a/c compressor kicks in? Or do we have a problem with the supply?

You can never worry too much about what is an invisible killer, you can't tell a live surface by looking at it. I've had numerous shocks over the years any one of which could potentially have killed me (but didn't obviously), it only takes one fatal shock to remove you from the realm of the living.

I've got no stats. reliable or otherwise, electrocutions are rarely reported in the English language press (unless it's a foreigner), I can't read the Thai press, but look how many fires are reported in the media as being started by 'wiring faults'.

A good quality copper/copper sheathed ground rod should outlast you, once the verdigris (corrosion) has built up on the outside it won't decay further (look at the 2000 year old copper/bronze helmets recovered from Roman ruins). The top of the rod and its connection should be above ground and protected from corrosion by being painted with a suitable acrylic paint, it's this connection that is the most likely failure point.

It's fairly normal for a SLIGHT dip in voltage when a big load (air con) starts, enough to dim the lights for a fraction of a second.

EDIT Regarding switched outlets, I never saw any in mainland Europe, I'm pretty sure that only the UK and Oz require them.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Crossy

[sbk]

There is quite an extensive and interesting thread about Electrics in the DIY forum here: Domestic Electrical Wiring:Suggestions for safe residential electrical installations.

Moved to the DIY housing forum

///MOVED///

[naka]

I'll never get used to that resounding 'splat!' when plugging stuff in (it happens in the UK too, we just don't see it 'coz the contacts are buried deep in the socket out of harms way), the concept of switched outlets is totally alien here too.

This generally doesn't happen in Australia as all socket outlets must have a built-in switch. Of course, arcing may happen if you choose to plug or unplug an appliance whilst the switch is left in the "on" position but only silly buggers do this.

Yea ... Only silly buggers like everyone's mum, granny, son, daughter et al.

Naka.

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

Naka, take it easy now, and DON'T TOUCH THOSE LIVE WIRES OK?

Crossy, thanks again for stellar response. I shall try to find the connection point of my rod (sic) and make sure it is sound and hardwired

[stumonster]

you can also get your earthing tested with an earth tester - different ground at different times of the year ( wet season ) can exhibit different conductive characteristics.

normally this should be determined during a new installation ( industrial ) and the earthing rods length is calculated.

[egg6447]

there has been at least two seperate claims of 3phase supplies in domestic situations. while i am inclined to put that down to the claimants being laymen, one was quite adamant that he needed it for the amount of equipment he has. this is totaly illegal in uk, there for i claim highly dangerous. in a industrial situation each phase is zoned via its own isolation switch. i just wonder do thai zone, ie, upstairs. downstairs, front of house back of house. one fool claimed to have two phase ot the same outlet.theres no helping some people.

[Crossy]

Decided not to bother.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Crossy

[elkangorito]

Decided not to bother.

Me too.

[Beardog]

For the 1st time in Thailand I got lucky when we built our house. NO shocks from touching the computer sides front or back.

everything was grounded right. Of course I provided the grounding rod & watched when he put the circuit breaker in. I showed him some tricks in plumbing & he showed me how he put the electric in! A fair exchange in a robbery! only one flickering light when house is off at night & one switch not functional after fixing 4 flickering lights.

I will go into the crawl hole in heat up the switch & find the flickering light & fix it. Still not bad over 30 outlets & 8 switch sets in a medium small house. I went overboard on outlets. 1 every 3 meters. Not having the 1 every 10 or 15 meters they like to give!

[Screws]

Most of the places, mainly homes that I have been to in Thailand have only 2-pin sockets, so have no earth. Also, checking the live/neutral, many are crossed, which is propbably no big deal in AC circuitary.

In the UK many appliances are double earthed (I think that's the term) and are marked as such, therefore only use 2 of the 3 pins on the plugs.

Some of the electricals I buy have 2 round pins, which are a very loose fitting, so I find it best to cut the plug off and replace it with the flat pin type.

Because of the bad fitting plugs and I guess lack of Earth in the wiring circuit, often, when the plug is pulled out, an arcing occurs.

Anyone find same,same?

The zap when you plug in is because the load you are plugging in is capacitive - switching power supplies for laptops etc. Nothing to do with earthing. In Australia, it also happens, but inside the switch when the contact is made, not when you plug it in, so it doesn't scare you.

AFAIK an ELCB such as POWURCUT protects just as well as earthing. I fitted a Powurcut recently - it has tripped a couple of times. I think it is more sensitive than the other brand as it has more settings for trip current - open, 5 ma, 10, 15 etc. And it was not as expensive.

Anybody more knowledgeable care to let us know if this is correct?

[warmwater7]

Not that I do not support the practice of safe se electric city, but are we perhaps just sometimes worrying too much about this issue? How many people are killed per year in Thailand as a result of poor wiring? Is there some reliable stats on this, or are we just guessing?

In my home country far to the north of Europe, with regulations among the most stringent in the world, we have I do think a world record in house fires caused by electric city. Go figure...

Don't want to sound otherwise, but I would like some feedback from Crossy, elkangorito and other upstanding menbers of the forum.

And while on the subject of electric city: Someone asked a while back about the lifespan of a copper grounding rod (earth spear). I did not get the real answer (if there is one), but we have recently refitted a house with a full new 3-phase wiring, and the builder put down a long (about 2 meters) grounding rod. If in a few years the contact between rod and wire withers/oxidises or whatever it is called, will the grounding of the house be compromised? And if so, how do I go about checking this? (The rod is not above ground, so not easily accessible. EDIT: Of course it is not above grond stupid, otherwise how would it be a ground rod? What I meant is that the connection point is not easily accessible). Any help is appreciated. And I can understand if you suggest me to see a psychologist or suchlike...

Ah, final question: is it normal in Thailand that the lights dim/flicker a little when the a/c compressor kicks in? Or do we have a problem with the supply?

Edited for many typos, and inaccuracies.

when a system is overloaded to begin with, and is asked to deliver additional amperage(juice) as when a large device with a big load is added to the circut,there is

going to be a symptom,first dimming lights,second smoke,third,....................

a light bulb is a circut that is ,by design, close to self destruction.

in this case,they removed fuel(oxygen) and it cannot burn.

any structure circut is the same.when the wires wires are loaded beyond their rating they will heat up in the same fashon,however they have that needed oxygen.

the system is protectd by something called a circut breaker.or fuse.

additionally the diameter if the wire in combination with it's legnth/in proportion to how much stuff is plugged in to it.

the circut breakers are designed to fail ( open ) when the load exceed the design/rating of the system. the latest and safest protection device is called a " GFI " GROUND FAULT INTERRUPTER..

this is by far much safer than traditional circut pritection as it snifs polarity chage ,and reacts (opens) in milli seconds asopposed to waiting for resistance to build.

ANSWER: NORMAL IN 3RD WORLD

the dimming is a result of a condenser in the ac unit that is also underrated/failing/bypassed by local electrician,and a dangerous wiring job

believe in god,but......tie up your horse.

lao te khun,

chok dee.

i'm a drinking engineer with no hollywood feature film audio problem.

[elkangorito]

My comments in blue.

The zap when you plug in is because the load you are plugging in is capacitive (does this happen for inductive loads or not?) - switching power supplies for laptops etc. Nothing to do with earthing. In Australia, it also happens, but inside the switch when the contact is made, not when you plug it in, so it doesn't scare you.

AFAIK an ELCB such as POWURCUT protects just as well as earthing (What does AS/NZS 3000-2007 say about this?). I fitted a Powurcut recently - it has tripped a couple of times. I think it is more sensitive than the other brand as it has more settings for trip current - open, 5 ma, 10, 15 etc. And it was not as expensive.

Anybody more knowledgeable care to let us know if this is correct?

Does your statement "an ELCB such as POWURCUT protects just as well as earthing" mean that somebody with more knowledge can correct you? If so, why make this statement?

when a system is overloaded to begin with, and is asked to deliver additional amperage(juice) as when a large device with a big load is added to the circut,there is going to be a symptom,first dimming lights, second smoke,third,....................

a light bulb is a circut that is ,by design, close to self destruction.

in this case,they removed fuel(oxygen) and it cannot burn.

any structure circut is the same.when the wires wires are loaded beyond their rating they will heat up in the same fashon,however they have that needed oxygen.

the system is protectd by something called a circut breaker.or fuse.

additionally the diameter if the wire in combination with it's legnth/in proportion to how much stuff is plugged in to it.

the circut breakers are designed to fail ( open ) when the load exceed the design/rating of the system. the latest and safest protection device is called a " GFI " GROUND FAULT INTERRUPTER..

this is by far much safer than traditional circut pritection as it snifs polarity chage ,and reacts (opens) in milli seconds asopposed to waiting for resistance to build.

A circuit breaker & an RCD are 2 totally different things with 2 totally different uses. The "latest & safest" protection is not a GFI, as you would call it. Both circuit breakers & RCD's are required for safe electrical distribution. This phrase "GFI" is an American phrase. For the sake of clarity, the technical term of RCD is used. This term (Residual Current Device) is more universal than GFI. Would you have us work in "wire gauge" & gallons as well?

ANSWER: NORMAL IN 3RD WORLD

the dimming is a result of a condenser in the ac unit that is also underrated/failing/bypassed by local electrician,and a dangerous wiring job believe in god,but......tie up your horse.

lao te khun,

chok dee.

i'm a drinking engineer with no hollywood feature film audio problem.

Stick to your drinking because you are no good at electricity. "Dimming" is not as a result of a condensor in the a/c unit nor anything else that you mentioned.

Go back to hollywood.

[Beardog]

For the 1st time in Thailand I got lucky when we built our house. NO shocks from touching the computer sides front or back.

everything was grounded right. Of course I provided the grounding rod & watched when he put the circuit breaker in. I showed him some tricks in plumbing & he showed me how he put the electric in! A fair exchange in a robbery! only one flickering light when house is off at night & one switch not functional after fixing 4 flickering lights.

I will go into the crawl hole in heat up the switch & find the flickering light & fix it. Still not bad over 30 outlets & 8 switch sets in a medium small house. I went overboard on outlets. 1 every 3 meters. Not having the 1 every 10 or 15 meters they like to give!

Well upon further inspection the work by Thai standards was exceptional In Western standards the black electrical tape in place of the crimped connectors or screw caps needs to be changed out & the 3 wires were only 2 I would have gladly paid the extra for the modern romex instead of the neutral & hot wire setup. at least no shocks from anything "yet"

[tjo o tjim]

The spark is only for capacitive loads-- capacitors don't like instantaneous change in voltage.

The switched sockets are to provide electrocution safety since fingers can easily come in contact with the older British plugs that are copper for the entire length of the prong (today they are usually plastic up to the point of electrical contact). American plugs (and most European countries) do not engage with sufficient space for a stray finger to get in the way.

The biggest flaw with American plugs is that they are flush with the wall, so if unplugged slightly, something metal sliding down the wall will cause a dead short. For this reason, hospitals are required to install outlets "ground pin up."

[bkk_mike]

there has been at least two seperate claims of 3phase supplies in domestic situations. while i am inclined to put that down to the claimants being laymen, one was quite adamant that he needed it for the amount of equipment he has. this is totaly illegal in uk, there for i claim highly dangerous. in a industrial situation each phase is zoned via its own isolation switch. i just wonder do thai zone, ie, upstairs. downstairs, front of house back of house. one fool claimed to have two phase ot the same outlet.theres no helping some people.

I've got 3-phase power in my house.

It's very odd on the rare occasions when you get a blackout or brownout on a single phase, so that the aircon is working, but the sockets in some rooms aren't (or vice-versa).

It seems to be normal if you have more than a certain number of aircon units. (which is generally not an issue in the UK).

As for how it's wired, at least in one room, some sockets are on different phases. (i.e. There are 6 double-sockets in my bedroom and I can often work through a partial blackout/brownout on one phase by using an extension cable if I get it strung across the room while the UPS is still beeping.)

Edited March 27, 2008 by bkk_mike

[elkangorito]

I've got 3-phase power in my house.

It's very odd on the rare occasions when you get a blackout or brownout on a single phase, so that the aircon is working, but the sockets in some rooms aren't (or vice-versa).

There's nothing odd about this at all, particularly if you have a 3 phase supply.