Head On Collision - Air Bags Failed To Open

[madjbs]

People say size doesn't matter but it most defiantly does if the vehicles are not of the same size to begin with. If you exaggerate the situation then you can see what I mean. Imagine two 18 wheeler trucks crash into each other, one is 50 years old and one is brand new. Brand new driver survives because his truck is very safe whereas 50 year old truck driver dies because his truck has been mashed into oblivion. Now imagine another 50 year old truck (very unsafe) crashes into a 5 star rated tiny hot-hatch (very safe). Car is now flat as a pancake even though technically its much safer than the 50 year old truck with no safety features.

[torrenova]

I went somewhat down this road with the D-Max and the passenger airbag because of a baby seat and the need to have the airbag disengaged. We have a rear child seat now but there was some discussion about different vehicles where some could sense that it was not an adult in the front and thus not deploy the airbag.

I also went down the route of finding out about airbag deployment in general and it is quite clear that there are a number of situations where they would not deploy. It is not down the to the angle or anything else but down to what the sensors perceive is happening. Whether that data is stored I have no idea.

As for the auto locking, then I understand that on some vehicles (including my D-Max) that it is not part of the locking mechanism but rather part of the alarm set up. I do however have conflicting infomration from an ex car salasman saying it can be set on the car computer so I am not clear on this one. I have never bothered to get it set to auto.

[wilko]

People say size doesn't matter but it most defiantly does if the vehicles are not of the same size to begin with. If you exaggerate the situation then you can see what I mean. Imagine two 18 wheeler trucks crash into each other, one is 50 years old and one is brand new. Brand new driver survives because his truck is very safe whereas 50 year old truck driver dies because his truck has been mashed into oblivion. Now imagine another 50 year old truck (very unsafe) crashes into a 5 star rated tiny hot-hatch (very safe). Car is now flat as a pancake even though technically its much safer than the 50 year old truck with no safety features.

Interesting but it doesn't actually work like that.....the newer the vehicle the more passive and active safety features are built in to the design....if the 50 year old truck-driver isn't strapped in...(he won't be) he will continue at the speed fo the truck as the truck stops....resulting in a red blob on the windscreen. Without crumple zones and safety cage the impact won't be absorbed and the passengers of both vehicles will have much more of a "jarring" experience which will result in more severe injuries....if the other vehicle is a Honda Jazz it is likely that the safety features will come into play and the passengers will suffer less injuries than without them.

[Plus]

If a truck collides with Honda Jazz it won't stop at all, and the driver might not even notice anything diffrent from running over a a speed bump.

Wilko, your pursuit of the "trucks are not safe" agenda is getting really absurd.

[culicine]

I recall a video on youtube once. It was a controlled collision between an old volvo and much smaller newer car. It wasn't a full frontal collision, but one where the front half of one car collided with the other half of the other. As it turned out there would have been much more severe leg injuries to the volvo driver (the footwell caved in), but the smaller car came of much better. Obviously it does not always work out that way - relative weights and how cars impact eachother would be important. However, I'd most certainly prefer to be in a passenger car when hitting an immovable object than a pickup. As another poster said, the pickup is more sturdy, so more impact is absorbed by the human body. Pickups migfht also be more unsafe in some instances as they have a higher centre of gravity and possibly more subject to roll over in a high speed accident.

[Mobi]

As for the auto locking, then I understand that on some vehicles (including my D-Max) that it is not part of the locking mechanism but rather part of the alarm set up. I do however have conflicting infomration from an ex car salasman saying it can be set on the car computer so I am not clear on this one. I have never bothered to get it set to auto.

The auto locking feature on the Fortuner is the default setting. It can be turned off by some complex process using the remote control key and switching the door locks off and on. I've never succeeded in doing it, but that's probably just me. I understand the CRV has a similar set up.

[Plus]

Fortuner weighs nearly twice as Jazz, in case of a collision resulting force will be only half of that excerted on tiny Honda.

Why are we even discussing this? I thought the days when every thread was turned into "cars are safer than pickups" rants are finally over.

[Rimmer]

As for the auto locking, then I understand that on some vehicles (including my D-Max) that it is not part of the locking mechanism but rather part of the alarm set up. I do however have conflicting infomration from an ex car salasman saying it can be set on the car computer so I am not clear on this one. I have never bothered to get it set to auto.

The auto locking feature on the Fortuner is the default setting. It can be turned off by some complex process using the remote control key and switching the door locks off and on. I've never succeeded in doing it, but that's probably just me. I understand the CRV has a similar set up.

The 2008 CRV proceedure is as follows:

1 shift lever in Park position

2 turn ignition switch on (II) position

3 open the driver door

4 pull back and hold the inside door handle and pull the lock tab rearward

5 push and hold the front of the master door lock switch on the drivers door until you hear a click (after 5 seconds)

6 release the switch and within 5 seconds turn the ignition switch to the LOCK position (O)

Sounds a little complicated but it's not when you are sitting there with the switches and instructions to hand.

Sorry I don't have the Fortuna proceedure but it must be out there somewhere, perhaps some kind sole in the interest of saving a life or two might want to put it up.

[Mobi]

I now have a pic of the pick-up that I hit

And here's some more of my car

So the collision was definitely at an angle, but even so, it's difficult to see why the air bags didn't open.

I have been thinking about what speed I usually drive around the lake. I don't normally look at the speedo unless I'm on the main highway, I just drive at a speed that I consider safe. Last night I was being driven by my wife along the road that I crashed on and she was only doing 60. I asked her to increase to 80, and I now doubt that I drove much faster than this. So the combined speed migt have been closer to 120, but obviously not head on.

I'm still waiting to hear if the vehicle is a write off.

[Mobi]

Fortuner weighs nearly twice as Jazz, in case of a collision resulting force will be only half of that excerted on tiny Honda.

Why are we even discussing this? I thought the days when every thread was turned into "cars are safer than pickups" rants are finally over.

So how about a Fortuner hitting Camry or an Accord? Would the Fortuner still be safer?

(because I'm thinking about buying one or t'other)

[Cuban]

Firstly - glad that you survived a serious accident.

>They warn you that you may be seriously injured by the bags if you are not wearing a seat belt.

The processing that occurs in "once only" systems was something I studied many years ago, the idea that there are a number of varibles that need to be considered within a fraction of a second to make the right choice really interested me. (I was playing with industrial control systems software, hardware watch dogs rather than software fail safes etc.)

You said that you were not wearing a seat belt during the accident, I assume that the car has a simple pressure sensor to know that the driver seat was occupied, and offered a red warning light to remind you to put it on.(!) I assume that during the accident the airbag deployment system was aware that at the point where the driver airbag would have been inflated (80 milliseconds*) after the system was aware that an accident was in progress, that the airbag's deployment might have caused more injury to you because a seat belt was not worn? Although the basis for my comment is just speculation. Personally I would guess anything would help in that situation.

I futher speculate that the Toyota legal team might have had a handle in drawing up the deployment protocol/algorithm; 'If our customer was not wearing a seatbelt and the car has a serious accident - don't deploy the airbag as they might not be killed outright and start a legal battle over damages caused by the airbag.' [Tongue in cheek comment.]

I know that seatbelts themselves are designed as a once only system, there are rip zones and the weave of the belt is designed to "give" a little during the decelaration of a body so bones are not broken and you suffer only bruising across the chest. In "proper" countries after an accident where the seatbelts are stressed by accident they should be replaced, I wonder if that happens here?

When you get your Fortuner back, fit some of these custom seats, the pre tensioners are a bit fierce but they have a good track record in lives saved.

From the link below:

"Experimental algorithms may take into account such factors as the weight of the occupant, the seat location, seatbelt use, and even attempt to determine if a baby seat is present."

Ref. Air bags

[Thaiboxer]

Some of the safest modern cars are the European models; Volvo, BMW and Benz for instance. At a recent family gathering, an inlaw told me that he was rear ended by a taxi while sitting in a Volvo 940. The Volvo's rear bumper had some minor dents and scratches while the taxi's front end was obliterated. My mother once had a secondhand Benz sedan. This car was made in 1984 and the wheel housed an airbag which was unheard of in American cars at the time. Parts were expensive but that car was built like a tank and weighed 4,500lbs!

Some of the 1970's/80's American cars have a solid body. Somebody in Pattaya is said to have a Ford Maverick for sale. Looked it up on the net and I'll bet that thing would flatten a Honda City or something similar.

[John 1]

Mobi,

Don't know if this guy had his seat belt on or air bag inflated but he got out with a scratch on his knee, that's him standing beside the ambulance Canberra Australia

[Jareddiving]

Renault builds Europe's safest cars.. Not Bmw, Mercedes or Volvo.

All Renault models received 5 stars in the EuroNcap tests

[Plus]

It's a pure speculation to project these frontal collision results at limited speeds to situations where tin can, stationary hondas get completly flattened into a pancake.

It's not about inellegent crumple zones anymore, it's about whole structure rigidity, and whatever you say, pickups' steel frame is not going to collapse, just like on those old Volvo tanks.

Honda Jass, btw, got four stars, same as Mitsu Triton.

[wilko]

If a truck collides with Honda Jazz it won't stop at all, and the driver might not even notice anything diffrent from running over a a speed bump.

Wilko, your pursuit of the "trucks are not safe" agenda is getting really absurd.

unfortunately not only do you not understand that not only do I not have an agenda but you don't understand the science of an "incident" or the arguments behind it.

accidents are never that simple....they are more like going over Niagara in a barrel.....the barrel is crashing against something much larger...it's called Planet Earth....but the occupant can still survive...(yes...not always for those who still don't get the point)

[wilko]

It's a pure speculation to project these frontal collision results at limited speeds to situations where tin can, stationary hondas get completly flattened into a pancake.

It's not about inellegent crumple zones anymore, it's about whole structure rigidity, and whatever you say, pickups' steel frame is not going to collapse, just like on those old Volvo tanks.

Honda Jass, btw, got four stars, same as Mitsu Triton.

Volvos are cage construction with crumple zones and are the predecessors of most European and Japanese monocoque construction methods - they rely entirely on crumple zones to absorb impact....this is why so many saloon cars look such a mess after a crash.

Unfortunately ladder frame chassis and the like cannot crumble or have a well controlled disintegration, this MAY impact on the other vehicle (and bystanders too) but also impacts on the occupants of the "chassis-ed" vehicle, i.e. they are thrown around so violently that they sustain far more serious injuries than they would in a car. The body and chassis become seperated etc etc...this can happen regardless of the size of the vehicle.

[wilko]

Fortuner weighs nearly twice as Jazz, in case of a collision resulting force will be only half of that excerted on tiny Honda.

Why are we even discussing this? I thought the days when every thread was turned into "cars are safer than pickups" rants are finally over.

Because you STILL fail to see weight is not the overriding factor - accidents are not that simple....it is the behaviour of the car in the accident that is important.

Imagine you are sitting on a deck chair in a concrete vehicle...if that vehicle stops suddenly, you continue, the brittle concrete disintergrates and you won't stop until you.ve hit something, the wieght has litte to do with it,,,your concrete has turned to dust.

[Plus]

What is this brittle concrete stuff???

Look at Top Gear's crash test of old Volvos. They don't crumble, they ram through an obstacle.

Physics of a collision are such that Jazz gets hit with force double of that acts on a Fortuner. In equal circumstances, i.e. when hitting a tree, your allegedly superior safety design in Jazz might give an advantage over Fortuner, but when Fortuner hits Jazz, the little thing stands no chance.

To better illustrate how mass makes a difference - if a Jazz collides with a loaded ten wheel truck, the truck will barely slow down because it weighs up to forty times more. In a closed system momentum is constant, a truck will change his speed (decelerate under the foce of collision) in reverse proportion to its mass. The heavier it is, the less impact it will sustain.

Have you ever been to a physics class?

[t.s]

so, do you remember if you were drunk?

[wilko]

What is this brittle concrete stuff???

Look at Top Gear's crash test of old Volvos. They don't crumble, they ram through an obstacle.

Physics of a collision are such that Jazz gets hit with force double of that acts on a Fortuner. In equal circumstances, i.e. when hitting a tree, your allegedly superior safety design in Jazz might give an advantage over Fortuner, but when Fortuner hits Jazz, the little thing stands no chance.

To better illustrate how mass makes a difference - if a Jazz collides with a loaded ten wheel truck, the truck will barely slow down because it weighs up to forty times more. In a closed system momentum is constant, a truck will change his speed (decelerate under the foce of collision) in reverse proportion to its mass. The heavier it is, the less impact it will sustain.

Have you ever been to a physics class?

Yes - have you ever played snooker? - I'm sorry but I have to give up on you - the reasons for this I'm told are not publishable on TV - and they are off topic.

Edited March 27, 2008 by wilko

[Maigo6]

If I was involved in a Honda Jazz v Toyota Fortuner accident, I'd rather be in the Fortuner.

A Toyota Vigo Pick with 4 Passengers rear ends a Honda Jazz with 4 passengers or a Honds Jazz with 4 Passengers rear ends a Toyota Vigo with 4 passengers, are you saying the Jazz Passengers would be better off ?

Or are you just comparing what happens when Cars run into 30 Ton Concrete blocks as in crash tests ?

I don't see many 30 Ton concrete blocks in the road, but I see lots of Honda Jazz, and my chances of a Concrete block rear ending me are a lot less than a Honda Jazz rear ending me.

Edited March 27, 2008 by Maigo6

[wilko]

I tell you what - It's like talking to a concrete block!

[wilko]

Mobi - On topic again - I don't think it has been emphasised in this thread WHY airbags don't operate when you are not wearing set belts...

Airbags are designed to work IN COLLABORATION with seat-belts which the manufacturers assume you are wearing as your first line of defence.

The air bag is activates explosively and if the occupant is too close (i.e. – thrown forward or in the wrong position, this may result in further or more serious injury.

This is one of the reasons that juveniles are not permitted in the front seats of cars in many countries

Edited March 27, 2008 by wilko

[Mobi]

Mobi - On topic again - I don't think it has been emphasised in this thread WHY airbags don't operate when you are not wearing set belts...

Airbags are designed to work IN COLLABORATION with seat-belts which the manufacturers assume you are wearing as your first line of defence.

The air bag is activates explosively and if the occupant is too close (i.e. – thrown forward or in the wrong position, this may result in further or more serious injury.

This is one of the reasons that juveniles are not permitted in the front seats of cars in many countries

It is clear that some vehicles are like this, but not the Fortuner. I have the handbook in front of me and they make it very clear that the bags will inflate even seat belts are not being worn. They warn you to wear the belt to avoid further injury from the air bag. They also advise that the passenger air bag WILL inflate, even if there is no one in the seat.

I have actually posted this info earlier in this thread maybe it got lost in the great car vs Pick-up debate.

[Plus]

May I humbly remind you that Mitsibishi Triton, known as L200 in Europe, recieved an equal rating in those same NCAP tests.

Do you know what it means? It means that pickups can be as safe as small cars, even when hitting concrete blocks.

They haven't tested Toyota's but it's the same generation truck, unlike Dmax designed in the last century. Vigos also feature the same body design as Toyota sedans.

[monty]

What is this brittle concrete stuff???

Look at Top Gear's crash test of old Volvos. They don't crumble, they ram through an obstacle.

Physics of a collision are such that Jazz gets hit with force double of that acts on a Fortuner. In equal circumstances, i.e. when hitting a tree, your allegedly superior safety design in Jazz might give an advantage over Fortuner, but when Fortuner hits Jazz, the little thing stands no chance.

To better illustrate how mass makes a difference - if a Jazz collides with a loaded ten wheel truck, the truck will barely slow down because it weighs up to forty times more. In a closed system momentum is constant, a truck will change his speed (decelerate under the foce of collision) in reverse proportion to its mass. The heavier it is, the less impact it will sustain.

Have you ever been to a physics class?

Eventhough I'm a great fan of the older Volvo's (I drive a Volvo 245 on a daily base), it simply is a fact that their protection by sheer solidness, has been overtaken by protection through smart design and smart crumble zones.

Take a look at following crash test, between a Volvo 940 tank (1.5 tons) and a tiny Renault Modus (1 ton, same body style as a Honda Jazz). Roughly the same accident as Mobi had...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBDyeWofcLY

The result, heavy injuries in the Volvo, possibly unsurvivable, and light injuries in the Renault.

They close with saying that traditionally the heavier vehicle holds the advantage, but that today with modern design and materials, it's time to re-evaluate that statement!

It is quite humbling to see how much damage that little tiny Renault was able to inflict on that Swedish piece of steel

[Thaiboxer]

Many of today's lighter cars have several airbags in different areas. In addition to regular airbags in front of the driver/front passenger, they have side impact bags in the doors. I would guess that the engineers have figured that airbags coupled with crumple zones would minimize the effects of a crash on the occupants. Older cars can run through the better part of a house without much damage, yet they offer no airbags.

How about the best of both worlds: Say an early 1970's Dodge Charger with a three point seatbelt and airbags. Reminds me of Kurt Russle's car in "Death Proof"

[Maigo6]

I tell you what - It's like talking to a concrete block!

The 4 people who were killed in the Car sure woul have preffered to be in the Truck, although the truck has no crumple zones or airbags.

The Truck driver never had a scratch. All in the car died at the scene and it took hours to get the bodies out of the tangle of safety structual, airbagged mess.

Size does matter.

Edited March 27, 2008 by Maigo6

[madjbs]

Well the video says it all really, unless there is a major difference in size. Makes me think about purchasing a modern car (defiantly not one of those French things though, however safe they are)