Head On Collision - Air Bags Failed To Open

[Maigo6]

Wonder if this has crumple zones and airbags ?

most crash tests are carried out on something similar - which would you prefer to hit it with a Camry or a Fortuner?

A Camry probably.

A Jazz or a Fortuner, I would go for the Fortuner.

Then again, I'd rather not hit it at all!

[wilko]

Try this....Camry ,Jazz, Foruner or CAT earth-mover or a specially prepared barrel - which would you rather go over Niagara Falls in? Which is the heaviest/greatest mass.?

[PETERTHEEATER]

Forgive me if this has been posted before....

The automatic door locking on the Fortuner can be switched off, details are in the owners handbook. It's a bit fiddley to do and I found it a bit hit and miss. Take it to a dealer, they'll do it for you. It was the first thing I did when I got the thing.

It is generally accepted that vehicle doors should be locked when the vehicle is occupied to prevent undesirables from opening doors when the vehicle is halted briefly at traffic stops. Occasionally I carry young children and don't make a point of setting the child-proof locks on the rear doors just for the odd trip, so I make sure the doors are closed properly and locked.

The point that I am making (as a Fortuner owner) is that even if the door auto-locking feature was disabled; I would lock the doors myself when the vehicle is in motion so, in the event of an accident in which the driver (and any pax) are unconscious, the doors would be locked.

Food for thought.

[Maigo6]

Try this....Camry ,Jazz, Foruner or CAT earth-mover or a specially prepared barrel - which would you rather go over Niagara Falls in? Which is the heaviest/greatest mass.?

If I had to do such a stunt over Niagara Falls it would be the barrel.

But place that Barrel in the road and smash it into the CAT, goodbye barrel.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Maigo6

[wilko]

Try this....Camry ,Jazz, Foruner or CAT earth-mover or a specially prepared barrel - which would you rather go over Niagara Falls in? Which is the heaviest/greatest mass.?

If I had to do such a stunt over Niagara Falls it would be the barrel.

But place that Barrel in the road and smash it into the CAT, goodbye barrel.

This picture is old (2002) but it makes a point...how many of us

• Drive a latest model?
  
• Have headlong collisions with earth moving equipment, or any vehicle for that matter
  
• Or have a choice of what they run into...
  

When an accident happens the vehicles usually deflect of each other like billiard balls, drivers instinctively take (inappropriate) evasive action and the vehicles are left to their own devices before coming to a rest.....this is much more akin to Niagara than a large quarry vehicle.

The big thing you usually collide with is PLANET EARTH, which has little give in it.

You are travelling at the same speed as the car and have to slow down too....how quickly or suddenly you personally come to a halt and what you bounce against will determine how serious your injuries are. Seat belts are designed to stretch, the outside of the car crumples and "soft" airbags deploy...all this is designed to let you decelerate GRADUALLY....this is crucial and not available to the same degree on pickups.

The old Volvos (2 series) are the basis for most modern safety features, the idea is that the passengers are held in a safety cage surrounded by crumple zones that absorb impact.....this is the same for all modern cars to some degree – the technology and science has advanced but the principles are the same. Modern "cages are made of ultra-strong alloys...(even proving difficult for the "jaws of life" to cut!)

The average Thai pickup on the other hand has a far older ancestry – it comes from the days of leaf suspension and a chassis composed of 2 parallel bars on to which is bolted a body...this is archaic and does not possess the same passenger protection as even the old Volvo. There are instances where the body and chassis have parted, leaving the passengers to fly off in a tin box with no brakes, crumple zones or safety cage.

I’m sure that the modern pickups are better than they were ten years ago, but at the end of the day you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, and they remain and automotive throw-back to the 1950s...or earlier for that matter.

PS - As for weight/mass, this is really a side issue especially for “normal” accidents.... my argument is that pickups are more dangerous than the usual family saloon, and the weights are more or less the same.

Weight is used a lot by the US motor industry, who not surprisingly favour heavy vehicles as not one of them can design and manufacture a successful. Lightweight vehicle...and their share of the market at home is shrinking daily in the face of competition from the like of Toyota.

Edited April 22, 2008 by wilko

[madjbs]

Amazing how the Mitsubishi got 4 stars in the NCAP tests then isnt it? Thats the same as a BMW X3, Honda CRV and most other Honda cars.

[Gary A]

Physics was never my best subject, but some of you guys are comparing apples with marshmallows. When you are talking vehicle safety there is no easy answer. Momentum, mass and inertia play a huge part. A heavier vehicle hitting a lighter vehicle will come out on top. The lighter vehicle suffers. How the inertia is dissipated in both vehicles determines how safe it is for the occupants. A car is normally designed with crumple zones that protect the cabin. That's fine if you hit a stationary object but if you hit a bus you will be going from forward to backwards VERY quickly whereas the bus feels only a jar and does not reverse direction.

[wilko]

Unfortunately accidents don't happen like that and your "physics" doesn't come into play....as has been pointed out several times.

Your bus, if it stops suddenly will cause the occupants considerably more damage than you iseem to imagine as the occupants will continue at the original speed until something stops them...i.e. something inside the bus.

Edited April 23, 2008 by wilko

[Gary A]

Unfortunately accidents don't happen like that and your "physics" doesn't come into play....as has been pointed out several times.

Your bus, if it stops suddenly will cause the occupants considerably more damage than you iseem to imagine as the occupants will continue at the original speed until something stops them...i.e. something inside the bus.

So you're saying you would rather be in a Vios than the bus? Is the Vios going to cause the bus to stop quickly or will the Vios stop more quickly? Head on collisions don't occur? If all accidents involved hitting an immovable object you would be correct.

[wilko]

This is as ever going round in circles...in part I’m failing to explain clearly , I’m sure but also we must take into account that there seem to be some people who just can't get their head round it...OK...I expect they are the same people who can't open cardboard milk cartons, fold maps, load a DVD player or cut and paste on a PC, walk through a doorway carrying a ladder etc.......the theory and facts are simple and there for all to see.

Questions like "what would you prefer to be in" just show a complete lack of grasp of the whole thing....accidents/incidents are random, we don't choose what we collide with or how or at what angle or speed on what surface in what weather etc etc.....I suspect though that some people are more likely to be involved as they seem to have no idea what forces internal, external or constructional are at work during an impact

So give it a rest, you will NEVER understand if you think that you question is valid or even remotely connected with what I’ve said.

it would also help if you actually READ the other posts....

just one thought on weight...which would you rather collide with a 2 tonne rock or a 10 tonne marshmallow?

Edited April 23, 2008 by wilko

[Plus]

there seem to be some people who just can't get their head round it...

Tell me about it.

accidents/incidents are random, we don't choose what we collide with

It might be random but I'm ALWAYS in a two ton Sportdirer, and three quarters of all other vehicles are significantly lighter.

I have far better odds than wimpy Jazz which is the lightest vehicle of all.

Amazing how the Mitsubishi got 4 stars in the NCAP tests then isnt it? Thats the same as a BMW X3, Honda CRV and most other Honda cars.

Triton has the same two bars with a body bolted on design as any other truck, as a Fortuner or my Sportrider. Apparently it's not such a big deal.

As for bus-Jazz collision, two pages ago I mentioned Jazz-ten wheel truck physics. I can repeat it again, no problem - overloaded truck weighs 40 times more than a Jazz. In case of a collision the force exerted on Jazz will be 40 times greater than force exerted on the truck. The truck will barely slow down, Jazz will decelerate and go backwards. It's like trying to stop a basketball with a ping pong.

[wilko]

you're in for some surprises in life!

[Gary A]

Some time back an retired police friend of mine sent me a video clip. It showed a car come across and go the wrong way on the wrong side of the highway. An eighteen wheeler was coming toward the car at a fairly high rate of speed. If the truck even had a jolt, I couldn't see it. After the impact and pieces flying, all you could see was tire smoke and the brake lights on the trailer still going down the highway.

[Plus]

Physics apparently don't work with Jazz, Gary.

[madjbs]

And it appears unexplainable why a 1950's archaic design is able to achieve a 4 star rating, the same as many Honda saloons and the BMW X3.

[ozzydom]

Try this....Camry ,Jazz, Foruner or CAT earth-mover or a specially prepared barrel - which would you rather go over Niagara Falls in? Which is the heaviest/greatest mass.?

If I had to do such a stunt over Niagara Falls it would be the barrel.

But place that Barrel in the road and smash it into the CAT, goodbye barrel.

This picture is old (2002) but it makes a point...how many of us

• Drive a latest model?
  
• Have headlong collisions with earth moving equipment, or any vehicle for that matter
  
• Or have a choice of what they run into...
  

When an accident happens the vehicles usually deflect of each other like billiard balls, drivers instinctively take (inappropriate) evasive action and the vehicles are left to their own devices before coming to a rest.....this is much more akin to Niagara than a large quarry vehicle.

The big thing you usually collide with is PLANET EARTH, which has little give in it.

You are travelling at the same speed as the car and have to slow down too....how quickly or suddenly you personally come to a halt and what you bounce against will determine how serious your injuries are. Seat belts are designed to stretch, the outside of the car crumples and "soft" airbags deploy...all this is designed to let you decelerate GRADUALLY....this is crucial and not available to the same degree on pickups.

The old Volvos (2 series) are the basis for most modern safety features, the idea is that the passengers are held in a safety cage surrounded by crumple zones that absorb impact.....this is the same for all modern cars to some degree – the technology and science has advanced but the principles are the same. Modern "cages are made of ultra-strong alloys...(even proving difficult for the "jaws of life" to cut!)

The average Thai pickup on the other hand has a far older ancestry – it comes from the days of leaf suspension and a chassis composed of 2 parallel bars on to which is bolted a body...this is archaic and does not possess the same passenger protection as even the old Volvo. There are instances where the body and chassis have parted, leaving the passengers to fly off in a tin box with no brakes, crumple zones or safety cage.

I’m sure that the modern pickups are better than they were ten years ago, but at the end of the day you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, and they remain and automotive throw-back to the 1950s...or earlier for that matter.

PS - As for weight/mass, this is really a side issue especially for “normal” accidents.... my argument is that pickups are more dangerous than the usual family saloon, and the weights are more or less the same.

Weight is used a lot by the US motor industry, who not surprisingly favour heavy vehicles as not one of them can design and manufacture a successful. Lightweight vehicle...and their share of the market at home is shrinking daily in the face of competition from the like of Toyota.

The text to which the above photo pertains is interesting.

quote>

Wow. Both of these vehicles hit the exact same off-set barrier at 40mph. Now keep in mind that this is not a test of how the two cars would fare in a head-on collision with each-other. This is simply how the cars did versus an off-set crash test. In fact all you have to do is look at the dummy’s legs and you can get an idea of what would happen if you hit a wall in either car. The MINI had almost no intrusion which “indicates that the driver’s survival space was maintained very well” - the F150 on the other hand had “Major collapse of the occupant compartment that left little survival space for the driver.”

[wilko]

Safety regulations concerning motor vehicles vary from country to country, but in general, pickups (and even SUVs) are regarded as commercial/work vehicles (Thailand is an example) and in general are not subject to the same stringent regulations as family sedans….in Thailand, where the motor industry is given over almost entirely to the production of pickups and there derivatives there are also huge incentives to own one….tax, road tax and duty are all tipped in favour of the pickup. As for the safety regs, I can only guess but I doubt if they will be as stringent say as Europe or Australia….For certain taxation favours leaf suspension which cannot be regarded as anything but a throwback and the cause of poor handling.....how many sedans in thailand even have a beam rear axle???

take a look at the article below….which also tells the other side of the NCAP tests as regards other pickups….. So we would be much safer if we all drove 18 wheelers???

There is a theory being bandied about that you will be OK in an accident because through might one will kill everyone else or at least smash the "opposing" (it seems to be a battle mentality here) vehicle into little pieces...the first problem I have with that is the murderous attitude it seems to condone, and the second is the irony....it won't work.

As for my friend is a...etc...I have somewhere a picture of a Mitsubishi G-Wagon that was involved in a fatal crash in Oz where the chassis and body had completely separated......I don't think another car was even involved....(how many 18 wheelers will YOU crash into in a lifetime)?

…….

"Two top-selling 4WD utes have been found wanting in independent crash tests "...

Found wanting...

The Nissan Navara scored one star in testing by Europe’s New Car Assessment Program (Euro NCAP).

Two of Australia’s best-selling four-wheel-drive utes have performed poorly in independent crash testing in Europe.

The Nissan Navara and the Isuzu D-MAX, which sells here as the Holden Rodeo, scored one and two stars respectively in testing by Europe’s New Car Assessment Program (Euro NCAP).

Both results carried a “strike-through” mark on one of their stars, after testing indicated they both presented “an unacceptably high risk of life-threatening injury” in a typical head-on crash.

The Mitsubishi L200, which sells here as the Triton, earned a four-star rating.

Holden says the result of the European test contradicts an NCAP test carried out in Australia in 2006, which awarded the Rodeo three stars.

"We can only assume that we have a different level of safety equipment in our local model," spokesperson John Lindsay says.

In a statement accompanying the crash results, Euro NCAP attacked the manufacturers for not applying the same safety standards to commercial vehicles as they did to passenger cars.

“Euro NCAP’s stringent crash tests reveal that the safety of vehicles in this category is not a high priority for some car makers,” the statement says.

In the Navara crash test, the vehicle’s chassis rail collapsed on one side and the dummy readings indicated a high risk of life-threatening injury to the driver's head and passenger's neck, as well as a high risk of injury to the driver's lower leg.

The Rodeo test concluded there was a high risk of life-threatening injury to the driver’s neck and chest.

Nissan says the poor result was linked to the delayed deployment of the Navara’s front airbags.

It has since updated the software that triggers the airbag deployment and NCAP is re-testing the vehicle with the upgrade fitted.

In Australia, the company has notified all its dealers of the fix and will begin mailing letters to Navara customers from March 6.

The fix applies to all Navaras built since 2005 and affects about 22,000 vehicles in Australia.

The manufacturer says it is confident the upgrade will result in a “competitive” score for the ute when the results of the second Euro NCAP test are revealed.

But local NCAP representative Jack Haley says the results confirm his organisation’s fears that commercial vehicle owners are being short-changed on safety.

Edited April 23, 2008 by wilko

[wilko]

And it appears unexplainable why a 1950's archaic design is able to achieve a 4 star rating, the same as many Honda saloons and the BMW X3.

Life it seems will also hold surprises for you too then...you could look at the test and see what they were testing OR read the rest of the print...

[wilko]

Try this....Camry ,Jazz, Foruner or CAT earth-mover or a specially prepared barrel - which would you rather go over Niagara Falls in? Which is the heaviest/greatest mass.?

If I had to do such a stunt over Niagara Falls it would be the barrel.

But place that Barrel in the road and smash it into the CAT, goodbye barrel.

This picture is old (2002) but it makes a point...how many of us

• Drive a latest model?
  
• Have headlong collisions with earth moving equipment, or any vehicle for that matter
  
• Or have a choice of what they run into...
  

When an accident happens the vehicles usually deflect of each other like billiard balls, drivers instinctively take (inappropriate) evasive action and the vehicles are left to their own devices before coming to a rest.....this is much more akin to Niagara than a large quarry vehicle.

The big thing you usually collide with is PLANET EARTH, which has little give in it.

You are travelling at the same speed as the car and have to slow down too....how quickly or suddenly you personally come to a halt and what you bounce against will determine how serious your injuries are. Seat belts are designed to stretch, the outside of the car crumples and "soft" airbags deploy...all this is designed to let you decelerate GRADUALLY....this is crucial and not available to the same degree on pickups.

The old Volvos (2 series) are the basis for most modern safety features, the idea is that the passengers are held in a safety cage surrounded by crumple zones that absorb impact.....this is the same for all modern cars to some degree – the technology and science has advanced but the principles are the same. Modern "cages are made of ultra-strong alloys...(even proving difficult for the "jaws of life" to cut!)

The average Thai pickup on the other hand has a far older ancestry – it comes from the days of leaf suspension and a chassis composed of 2 parallel bars on to which is bolted a body...this is archaic and does not possess the same passenger protection as even the old Volvo. There are instances where the body and chassis have parted, leaving the passengers to fly off in a tin box with no brakes, crumple zones or safety cage.

I’m sure that the modern pickups are better than they were ten years ago, but at the end of the day you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, and they remain and automotive throw-back to the 1950s...or earlier for that matter.

PS - As for weight/mass, this is really a side issue especially for “normal” accidents.... my argument is that pickups are more dangerous than the usual family saloon, and the weights are more or less the same.

Weight is used a lot by the US motor industry, who not surprisingly favour heavy vehicles as not one of them can design and manufacture a successful. Lightweight vehicle...and their share of the market at home is shrinking daily in the face of competition from the like of Toyota.

The text to which the above photo pertains is interesting.

quote>

Wow. Both of these vehicles hit the exact same off-set barrier at 40mph. Now keep in mind that this is not a test of how the two cars would fare in a head-on collision with each-other. This is simply how the cars did versus an off-set crash test. In fact all you have to do is look at the dummy’s legs and you can get an idea of what would happen if you hit a wall in either car. The MINI had almost no intrusion which “indicates that the driver’s survival space was maintained very well” - the F150 on the other hand had “Major collapse of the occupant compartment that left little survival space for the driver.”

so which is the heavier the ute or the concrete block?

[Thaiboxer]

The 18-wheelers would be nice...too bad they're not easy to park at the mall!

[wilko]

So you think pickups are safe - NCAP results

just a bit more about the crash tests....

"First Place Mitsubishi L200 (Triton)

If you are looking for the safest truck, you are going to be buying the ugliest. The safest truck tested is the Triton. With a 4 star rating, the triton performance was still poor. Many of the points awarded to the Triton were won for side impact protection. But in a frontal impact the risk of injury is still very high."

[wilko]

The 18-wheelers would be nice...too bad they're not easy to park at the mall!

I'd have no problems reversing r a semi....just need the right amount of space......some places in Bkk I'd avoid.

Interestingly in the US there are weight limits on a lot of suburban roads that would mean that such large SUVs as Hummers are banned.....you can buy one but not take it out of your garage!

[Plus]

Upgraded Navarra got three stars, no? And it's the first time ever pickups participated. How many passenger cars got four-five stars on the first try?

The simple fact is that Jazz is a lot smaller than something like 80% of vehicles on the road, they might do well in a crash with comparable Vios but caught amid pickups, physics work against them, the bigger the weight difference the more dangerous collision is. And if they hit a Triton (same rating, 50% heavier) they are a toast.

Higher rating is good when you hit a tree or a concrete lamp post, in collision with other vehicles mass is more important.

[wilko]

Upgraded Navarra got three stars, no? And it's the first time ever pickups participated. How many passenger cars got four-five stars on the first try?

The simple fact is that Jazz is a lot smaller than something like 80% of vehicles on the road, they might do well in a crash with comparable Vios but caught amid pickups, physics work against them, the bigger the weight difference the more dangerous collision is. And if they hit a Triton (same rating, 50% heavier) they are a toast.

Higher rating is good when you hit a tree or a concrete lamp post, in collision with other vehicles mass is more important.

your obsession with the Jazz and mass is blinding you from the facts and logic of the argument...we are talking about road safety which involves a lot more physics than that....this has been laid out over and over again and frankly is getting rather boring.

other examples apart from a ten ton marshmallow,

a tree that bends in the wind perhaps?

a karate black belt and a heavyweight boxer?

a mouse and an elephant?

a big man and a bullet?

your brain and a peanut?

not to put too fine a point on it and to draw from the writings of Mr B. Elton....

you wouldn't get it if your were handed it in a big bag marked "IT"........

Edited April 24, 2008 by wilko

[Maigo6]

I was driving yesterday when a rather large housefly flew head on into my Fortuner, my car is a total write off and I'm lucky to be alive, the fly was unharmed and told me that I should never have a Pick up or Pick up based SUV as they are deathtraps.

He advised me to read Wilko's posts on the subject.

So Wilko, next time you are out driving your pick up, beware of those flys mate.

[wilko]

Here's your bag!

[Gary A]

I was driving yesterday when a rather large housefly flew head on into my Fortuner, my car is a total write off and I'm lucky to be alive, the fly was unharmed and told me that I should never have a Pick up or Pick up based SUV as they are deathtraps.

He advised me to read Wilko's posts on the subject.

So Wilko, next time you are out driving your pick up, beware of those flys mate.

Obviously that fly was the latest model. If it had been an old model it would have died for sure. It's too bad about your Fortuner but perhaps you have learned something. Next time you must buy a Vios or Jazz. Be happy that you were not killed in your death trap.

[Cuban]

Unfortunately accidents don't happen like that and your "physics" doesn't come into play....as has been pointed out several times.

Physics governs all - and for the most part simple Newtonian Mechanics is enough establish damage for almost every man made moving object hitting something else since the first sharp rock was thrown at an unsuspecting sabre toothed bunnie rabbit at the dawn of time.

Momentum, mass and inertia play a huge part. A heavier vehicle hitting a lighter vehicle will come out on top. The lighter vehicle suffers. How the inertia is dissipated in both vehicles determines how safe it is for the occupants.

It is the last sentance that is the crux of the issue (although it should be momentum rather than inertia, to be pedantic) the safety standards around the world no longer focus solely on the safety cage and the people inside the car but the car hitting raw unboxed people as well. Hence to move toward soft curved bonets rather than sharp ridge lines that break legs and hips so well. I would expect this is factored into the insurance rates that you pay per car design/age as it will affect the resultant hospital bills for those run down. So a high score in a general safety test does not mean it is the safest car in which to be a passenger.

I believe the BMW 330i was rated as one of the safest, however I would prefer to be in something larger and heavier if involved in an accident with the BMW.

However - I think the overriding safety factor is the nut behind the stering wheel - for if that is faulty all bets are off.

[wilko]

Unfortunately accidents don't happen like that and your "physics" doesn't come into play....as has been pointed out several times.

Physics governs all - and for the most part simple Newtonian Mechanics is enough establish damage for almost every man made moving object hitting something else since the first sharp rock was thrown at an unsuspecting sabre toothed bunnie rabbit at the dawn of time.

Momentum, mass and inertia play a huge part. A heavier vehicle hitting a lighter vehicle will come out on top. The lighter vehicle suffers. How the inertia is dissipated in both vehicles determines how safe it is for the occupants.

It is the last sentance that is the crux of the issue (although it should be momentum rather than inertia, to be pedantic) the safety standards around the world no longer focus solely on the safety cage and the people inside the car but the car hitting raw unboxed people as well. Hence to move toward soft curved bonets rather than sharp ridge lines that break legs and hips so well. I would expect this is factored into the insurance rates that you pay per car design/age as it will affect the resultant hospital bills for those run down. So a high score in a general safety test does not mean it is the safest car in which to be a passenger.

I believe the BMW 330i was rated as one of the safest, however I would prefer to be in something larger and heavier if involved in an accident with the BMW.

However - I think the overriding safety factor is the nut behind the stering wheel - for if that is faulty all bets are off.

Of course Newton’s laws apply but it is NOT the simplistic approach taken by some posters ("their physics)...e.g. a small car collides with a pickup at 45 degrees to it's side....all the laws apply but neither vehicle is one solid homogeneous object but a cluster of various parts, and different parts of each car react according to the way it is put together....a good design and construction being better suited to this......e.g. the pickup may well disintegrate/fragment as the chassis and body get separated the engine flies away etc, a pool table is less complicated than these forces happening here....and certainly this is no simple inter-reaction between 2 simple SOLID objects, it is the interaction of various parts, some of which include the "soft machine" which is so highly vulnerable to sudden changes in direction or velocity.

How all these things come together is a matter of design evolving over the years, and even though pickups may have some of the new features added they are still essentially a design from the days when this science was in its infancy.

...and I think it is wishful thinking to suggest that at the moment of impact we will ever be able to choose which car we'd RATHER be in...the fact is the majority of vehicles on the road are not latest models, and when driving it helps to be aware of your vehicles limitation rather than driving about thinking you will "overcome" or kill anyone who gets in your way....a very antisocial attitude to driving and one's fellow man/road-user.

[Priceless]

Unfortunately accidents don't happen like that and your "physics" doesn't come into play....as has been pointed out several times.

Physics governs all - and for the most part simple Newtonian Mechanics is enough establish damage for almost every man made moving object hitting something else since the first sharp rock was thrown at an unsuspecting sabre toothed bunnie rabbit at the dawn of time.

Momentum, mass and inertia play a huge part. A heavier vehicle hitting a lighter vehicle will come out on top. The lighter vehicle suffers. How the inertia is dissipated in both vehicles determines how safe it is for the occupants.

It is the last sentance that is the crux of the issue (although it should be momentum rather than inertia, to be pedantic) the safety standards around the world no longer focus solely on the safety cage and the people inside the car but the car hitting raw unboxed people as well. Hence to move toward soft curved bonets rather than sharp ridge lines that break legs and hips so well. I would expect this is factored into the insurance rates that you pay per car design/age as it will affect the resultant hospital bills for those run down. So a high score in a general safety test does not mean it is the safest car in which to be a passenger.

I believe the BMW 330i was rated as one of the safest, however I would prefer to be in something larger and heavier if involved in an accident with the BMW.

However - I think the overriding safety factor is the nut behind the stering wheel - for if that is faulty all bets are off.

Actually the EuroNCAP ( http://www.euroncap.com/Content-Web-Start/...a78c2/home.aspx ) tests are divided into three parts: A/ Adult occupant B/ Child occupant C/ Pedestrian. These are not amalgamated into an overall grade so, at least for the EuroNCAP, there is no such thing as a "general safety test" that would come up with a "best buy".

/ Priceless