Last Will And Testament

[soihok]

Hello.

I have recently made a will (in Singapore) and would be very grateful of any advice that can be offered.

My wife is Thai and I am Brit.

The will I have made is in English and basically I want to leave assests that are not in Thailand to her.

Am I correct in beliving that she could approach a lawyer in Thailand ,to act upon her behalf to process the will?

What would she expect to face (in terms of tax,etc. ) by bringing into Thailand , funds from bank accounts and funds arising from the sale of property that she would be entitled to in the event of my death?

I,m just trying to get clear in my mind ,rather than leaving more problems for her.

I really could do with visiting a Thai law firm,but,I,m not in Thailand at the moment.

Cheers

[chiang mai]

Hello.

I have recently made a will (in Singapore) and would be very grateful of any advice that can be offered.

My wife is Thai and I am Brit.

The will I have made is in English and basically I want to leave assests that are not in Thailand to her.

Am I correct in beliving that she could approach a lawyer in Thailand ,to act upon her behalf to process the will?

What would she expect to face (in terms of tax,etc. ) by bringing into Thailand , funds from bank accounts and funds arising from the sale of property that she would be entitled to in the event of my death?

I,m just trying to get clear in my mind ,rather than leaving more problems for her.

I really could do with visiting a Thai law firm,but,I,m not in Thailand at the moment.

Cheers

We beat this subject up one side of the mountain and down the other some weeks ago so you may want to do a forum search to see the excellent points and outcomes. A good part of the problem that we all face in this matter has to do with being a Brit and the argument over where we are domiciled and resident in the eyes of the UK probate process. Whilst you have not specifically referred to the UK legal aspects of this I wonder if it has implications for you? Be aware that UK based financial institutions (including offshore in IOM and CI) have a requirement to release funds ONLY through UK probate!

As far as the Thai legal side of things is concerned: my current understanding is that if you will assets to a Thai national, that wish needs to be enshrined in a Thai will which can be handwritten by you and ideally, witnessed. The process does NOT require a Thai lawyer as under Thai law your handwriting serves as proof of identity. Assets willed to a Thai national are not subject to tax as far as I am aware.

[soihok]

Thanks for the reply chiang mai.

I did a forum search and came up with nothing.

Can you remember which forum it was on and I will go back through it.

Thanks again.

[soihok]

Just found it on this forum in Feb.

Thanks for the info.

Cheers

[chiang mai]

Just found it on this forum in Feb.

Thanks for the info.

Cheers

Good. If you come up with a definitive and legally correct opinion on all of this, one that is supported under international law and can be substantiated, I at least will be very pleased to hear from you, as no doubt others will also.

[GuestHouse]

The Assets the OP wishes to leave to his wife are not in Singapore, they are in Thailand.

This has nothing to do with Thai law and there is no need to employ a Thai lawyer to assist in transferring the wealth to Thailand.

What the OP needs is an executor to his will preferably an executor in Singapore.

This may be his Singapore lawyers, the will certainly offer this service at a charge, it may be a friend of family member.

It may also be someone who is not in Singapore (I acted as executor for a friend's will that was enacted on property and wealth in the UK while I was living in Thailand).

The particular caution that I would suggest the OP pays heed to is DON'T TRUST A THAI LAWYER AS FAR AS YOU CAN THROW A THAI LAWYER.

Putting the movement to Thailand of what is presumably a significant amount of cash in the hands of a Thai lawyer is asking to be robbed.

I'd also suggest that the OP considers other options rather than handing over a large amount of cash in one lump - it may not last that long if he does. (I'm assuming here that the OP would like to provide long term financial security for his wife in that he predeceases her), if so talk to the Singapore lawyers about what options are available.

Finally, when discussing these other options and indeed when discussing 'executor services' ask about charges - Up Front Lump Sum charges are cheaper than the oft quoted % of estate - a lot cheaper.

[PattayaParent]

Be aware that UK based financial institutions (including offshore in IOM and CI) have a requirement to release funds ONLY through UK probate!

According to my Merchant Bankers this is not strictly true and depends on circumstances of the deceased.

The offshore banks are only obliged to report through UK probate in either of 2 situations.

1. You have a UK Will which will be administered through the UK probate.

2 You have a UK address as your residence with the bank.

If you have neither then the offshore banks are not obliged to contact the UK authorities.

Edit: GH advise is good (as usual) regarding Thai lawyers but in Bangkok there are some UK Law firms that you could consult regarding dispposal of your UK assests.

Edited March 27, 2008 by PattayaParent

[Jingjok]

For offshore cash funds I came up with what I think is a simple solution.

Put cash/investment accounts into joint names, but arrange that only you have signature authority whilst you live.

Assuming you predecease the other party, she would then gain signature authority and hence full access to the funds immediately after your death. This ‘transfer’ would occur outwith the jurisdiction of any state as regards probate/estate taxes etc.

I think (and hope!) that this will work. If anyone here thinks not do say. My banker in Singapore was confident that the idea is straightforward.

Alternatively set up internet banking, and leave logon and password information to be issued to your partner post-mortem (more dangerous of course). Although left, say, in deposit boxes in one or two banks I wouldn’t worry too much.

Something similar should also work with fixed assets, assuming, as in your case, such assets are situated in a tax friendly state which has no onerous estate duties, as of course is Singapore.

As others have said, completely avoiding contact with Thai lawyers is essential.

[Maizefarmer]

Sorry Jingjok - no can do: I thought of this years back and looked into it in detail, but leaving funds in an account that a 3rd party can have access to in the event of your death, is not that straightforward. The bank will of course want a copy of the d/certificate, but still, they will not release funds - period - to a 3rd party untill the will has being signed off and all matters related to the estate have being settled.

Just as in writing a will in the UK for execution in Thailand can be frought with problems, the OP should lodge a will in Thailand, and in Singapore - with lawyers in the respective jurisdictions, with respect to assets in those countries - who the OP's partner should know how to contact in the event of his death.

[Jingjok]

Sorry Jingjok - no can do: I thought of this years back and looked into it in detail, but leaving funds in an account that a 3rd party can have access to in the event of your death, is not that straightforward. The bank will of course want a copy of the d/certificate, but still, they will not release funds - period - to a 3rd party untill the will has being signed off and all matters related to the estate have being settled...

I'm not saying you are wrong in your case. I think you would certainly be right if it were on of the Western high street banks, who are all appalling, bureaucratic, jobsworths.

It's not really a 'third party'. The account would be a joint account. By standard procedure, either or both account holders have access at any time, depending on which boxes were ticked when it was opened.

The only difference in my suggested scenario is that the second party does not obtain signature authority until after the death/mental incapacity of the first.

My bank is fine with this; it has been in place for a few years. The banker has met both me and my partner, knows how it's supposed to work, and I'd be really surprised if anything was put in the way of my partner and children. Or at least I would be, were I not already dead

What I don't know is how it could work with fixed assets in Sing.

[chiang mai]

Be aware that UK based financial institutions (including offshore in IOM and CI) have a requirement to release funds ONLY through UK probate!

According to my Merchant Bankers this is not strictly true and depends on circumstances of the deceased.

The offshore banks are only obliged to report through UK probate in either of 2 situations.

1. You have a UK Will which will be administered through the UK probate.

2 You have a UK address as your residence with the bank.

If you have neither then the offshore banks are not obliged to contact the UK authorities.

Edit: GH advise is good (as usual) regarding Thai lawyers but in Bangkok there are some UK Law firms that you could consult regarding dispposal of your UK assests.

If you read the terms and conditions heading entitled "in the event of death of the account holder" of the offshore banks such as Nationwide International, HBOS and A&L they ALL state that funds can only be released to beneficiaries on the instruction of a UK Court of Probate.

[chiang mai]

The Assets the OP wishes to leave to his wife are not in Singapore, they are in Thailand.

This has nothing to do with Thai law and there is no need to employ a Thai lawyer to assist in transferring the wealth to Thailand.

Are we both reading the same thing?

"The will I have made is in English and basically I want to leave assests that are not in Thailand to her".

[soihok]

This very interesting and serious stuff isnt it?

Really,,many thanks to you all that are putting forward your comments and ideas.

I have thought about the joint account option but thats about it.

I am in my forties and have no plan on departing soon, but I feel that now that I have a family that is solely dependent on me alone , it is wise to have them benefit rather than them get Zero.

Keep it up ,,,its in all our interests.

Cheers

[soihok]

Be aware that UK based financial institutions (including offshore in IOM and CI) have a requirement to release funds ONLY through UK probate!

According to my Merchant Bankers this is not strictly true and depends on circumstances of the deceased.

The offshore banks are only obliged to report through UK probate in either of 2 situations.

1. You have a UK Will which will be administered through the UK probate.

2 You have a UK address as your residence with the bank.

If you have neither then the offshore banks are not obliged to contact the UK authorities.

Edit: GH advise is good (as usual) regarding Thai lawyers but in Bangkok there are some UK Law firms that you could consult regarding dispposal of your UK assests.

OK

I am a British citizen with no residential address in the UK as I dont live there and, unless its the last chicken in the shop kind of thing, I dont expect to be going back .

I do bank offshore and I will certainly look into the option of joint bank accounts.

I do worry about the Thai side of things.....naturally.

But I would worry more if I knew that my family would receive 0 due to some legal wall.

Thanks for comments everyone.

[chiang mai]

Despite having spoken to the likes of HBOS and A&L on this subject I am still somewhat unclear as to the definitive answer. The UK banks generally take a copy of your passport when you open an account with them and indeed the majority of these banks retail customers are British - I can therefore follow their logic somewhat when they require that a release of funds to beneficiaries can only be made via a UK Court of Probate since that will be applicable and appropriate in most cases.

But the issue of residency and where a person is domiciled is determined by factors other than just a copy of a passport and the Banks accept this. A part of the solution I believe involves giving the banks in question a "statement of preference" which is really nothing more than a reaffirmation of your will - it is apparently also useful to point out in that letter that you are not UK domiciled and/or resident otherwise they may likely follow their standard procedures of one size fits all. Above all else it is key that you select an executor who is aware of the domicile issue otherwise the UK tax man will march forward and grab his share.

[Mapguy]

Sorry Jingjok - no can do: I thought of this years back and looked into it in detail, but leaving funds in an account that a 3rd party can have access to in the event of your death, is not that straightforward. The bank will of course want a copy of the d/certificate, but still, they will not release funds - period - to a 3rd party untill the will has being signed off and all matters related to the estate have being settled...

I'm not saying you are wrong in your case. I think you would certainly be right if it were on of the Western high street banks, who are all appalling, bureaucratic, jobsworths.

It's not really a 'third party'. The account would be a joint account. By standard procedure, either or both account holders have access at any time, depending on which boxes were ticked when it was opened.

The only difference in my suggested scenario is that the second party does not obtain signature authority until after the death/mental incapacity of the first.

My bank is fine with this; it has been in place for a few years. The banker has met both me and my partner, knows how it's supposed to work, and I'd be really surprised if anything was put in the way of my partner and children. Or at least I would be, were I not already dead

What I don't know is how it could work with fixed assets in Sing.

A caution: If you are on a visa that requires a certain sum on deposit in a Thai Bank, you had better check to see if that account, for visa purposes, is acceptable in joint name. For what is commonly known as the "retirement visa," the account must be solely in the individual's name.

Re incapacitation, each spouse is required by Thai law to be responsible for the welfare of the other. If you do not have an acceptable power of attorney (POA), then you do have to appeal to the court. But specific POAs should be run by the bank to ensure the bank is okay with them (as well as a medical certificate and proof of marriage, of course).

When you die, a POA has no effect at all. It dies with you, just like everywhere else, I think. It is necessary for the spouse to file a will with the court. The process takes two - three months, as I have been told. If you die intestate, my understanding is that there are six classes of potential beneficiaries the court must consider in disposing of the estate. That's in the Civil and Commercial Code.

[number9999]

First it is tricky but I think to say all Thai lawyers are crocks is a bit unfair – its like saying all Thai girls are gold diggers – I admit you have to be careful with Thailand lawyers but then in west lawyers aren’t all roses they just eat your money nicely in huge fees and administrative expenses. Myself I have a will here logged with our

Thai lawyer (who id trust as much as most – I hate lawyers but their needed sometimes) and a will in UK logged with my UK lawyer. The will in UK covers Everything outside of Thailand and basically gives our children 25% in trust (administered by UK Lawyer) and income on 75% goes to my wife for life then to our children. Offshore is mostly in joint names so belongs to my Thai wife when I go. The problem is (but unavoidable) that fees in UK to administer trust for this are going to eat very heavily into moneys but I cant find a safe other method. Assets in Thailand

Are mostly shares and property (about 50% in my name). My Thai will again says income from my assets goes to my wife for life then to our children. Guess a clever Thai lawyer might find a way to eat into my share and rob my wife and children but I don’t trust UK lawyers any more than ones here ( they just do it on huge hourly

Rates). The fees here are set down in our wills for lawyers here to administer estate and are very reasonable and far less than those in UK.

The only way of avoiding big fees and some risks is to put everything in your wifes

name and although I trust my thai wife 100% that does not go for her family so much

So my solution maybe not best but gives our children most later and my wife income

for life

As an aside minors in Thailand can own property if they are thai nationals so weve put some properties in our children’s names. Here being so family oriented income

Goes automatically to my wife and property cant be sold until child reaches 20.

[number9999]

just tidying typos a bit

First it is tricky but I think to say all Thai lawyers are crocks is a bit unfair – its like saying all Thai girls are gold diggers – I admit you have to be careful with Thailand lawyers but then in west lawyers aren’t all roses they just eat your money nicely in huge fees and administrative expenses. Myself I have a will here logged with our Thai lawyer (who id trust as much as most – I hate lawyers but their needed sometimes) and a will in UK logged with my UK lawyer. The will in UK covers Everything outside of Thailand and basically gives our children 25% in trust (administered by UK Lawyer) and income on 75% goes to my wife for life then to our children. Offshore is mostly in joint names so belongs to my Thai wife when I go. The problem is (but unavoidable) that fees in UK to administer trust for this are going to eat very heavily into moneys but I cant find a safe other method. Assets in Thailand are mostly shares and property (about 50% in my name). My Thai will again get income for life from my assets thenit goes to our children. Guess a clever Thai lawyer might find a way to eat into my share and rob my wife and children but I don’t trust UK lawyers any more than ones here ( they just rob you do it on huge hourly Rates in UK ). The fees here are set down in our wills for lawyers here to administer estate and are very reasonable and far less than those in UK.

The only way of avoiding big fees and some risks is to put everything in your wifes name and although I trust my thai wife 100% that does not go for her family so much

So my solution maybe not best but gives our children most later and my wife income for life As an aside minors in Thailand can own property if they are thai nationals so weve put some properties in our children’s names. Here being so family oriented income Goes automatically to my wife and property cant be sold until child reaches 20. Trusts

dont exist im told by our Thai lawyer here in Thailand.