Dowry

[caravelle]

Hi, Just a guy with a dilemma that hopes that your imput will add some clarity to his situation.

The subjest is: Relationship with a Thai Lady.

I have met and  spent many days together, emailed and I/messaged daily.  Built up something so good  in  a short time.

She refuses all gifts and assistance I offer, employed as a nurse and lives alone in BKK.  I am 100% sure she is genuine.

Now we talk of engagement and dowry, which is where the confusion is.

Her parents (poor farmers) ask 600,000 baht and the value of engagement ring she asks for is 35,000 50,000 baht.

Question, are the figures a fair amount or does she make a mistake with one to many 0's?

I notice already that she shops for quality but always a bargain, also informs me she is okay at 40baht and not 100 baht daily internet costs that she pays.

I do believe that she is the genuine article and feel a little guilty posting here.  However, i am sure a Lady's view will be of great assistance.  Thank you all  for you imput.

Cunfused Caravelle

ComeOn::  So Many Viewings and so Little Replies, (of which I am so grateful for)  comments or opinions appreciated!!!

[Bukseeda]

Caravelle,

I'm not female but thought i'd make a comment anyway.  A dowry of that much is common for more "upmarket" families.  That's a lot for a farmer.  However, a lot of Thais (especially those upcountry) have an unrealistic expectation of how much money foreigners have.  My guess is that her family came up with this figure, not her.  It could also be based on what another woman in the village received as dowry when marrying a farang.  I don't know what your financial situation is but if you do have to discuss this with her all I'd say is that you may be put in a position of making her choose between you and the family.   As I'm sure you know, Thais are expected to honour their parents and some families do put pressure on their daughters in this respect.  My advice is talk to her a bit more about it and if possible spend some time in her village.  If you find that unreasonable demands are being made of you while you are there (i.e. uncles etc. needing money) then this can be some indication that you and your wife will come under this kind of pressure for the rest of your marriage.  If that is the case, then the decision is yours.  (My friend married a Thai from the North-East, while he lived in Bangkok he and his wife were under intense pressure continuously to provide money, however he moved back to Jersey in the UK and since then the demands have become more  reasonable and now he sends around 10,000B to her family every month.)

[nikkiDK]

"Big Farrang Big Money" It's a title of a book, I read years ago. Maybe you can find it at Asia Book shop in Bangkok.

If you have that money and want to support her family please do so, but make sure that they won't ask for more in the future. As I'm Thai (F) but my parents never asked anything from my fiance´(Farang). They told him that the most important thing in relationship is love & honesty not money and they never involved in our relationship.

Don't do it if you feel uncomfortable, that is my comment.

All the best.

Nikki

[Thetyim]

Sorry mate but 600k is way over the top.

Your girl MIGHT be genuine but she will always listen to her family first.  You are number two.

Obviously I know nothing about your future inlaws but a gut feeling tells me you will have trouble with them.

My advise is to quit now, whilst the pain is emotional and not financial.  Sorry to be so cynical but so many of us have had to learn the hard way that we all want to help you and try to prevent you from making a mistake that you will remember for the rest of your life.

[Boo]

Wow, You know, when I read your post I thought it was 60,000 dowry & was wondering why you thought that was unreasonable!! WHen I realised it was 600,0000 I nearly passed out. I will give you an exapmle of a thai girl planning on getting married soon, she inherited 50k rai in central thailand making her quite a wealthy girl, she also will inherite her families businesses (bungalow resort & about 50 premises around the island) so she is considered to be quite a catch. The guy she wants to marry has to come up with 400k baht dowry, this is about average for someone of her position & financial wealth as her husband will effectivly become the owner of these properties too. 600,000 baht for the daughter of a poor thai farmer is completly off the scale, you need to speak with this girl & make her understand that that amount is just ridiculous & offer in the region of 100,000 (this is also excessive but maybe as a good will gesture), also find out if the family expects you to provide some kind of monthly stipend too.

As it's been said in other postings, you are number 2 to her family & you have to decide if you can carry the wjole brood financially. Good Luck

[caravelle]

Thanks to all who give their opinions and advise so far, but please let me have some more reponses.

The Pressure mounts for me as now I am invited to her friends wedding in Thailand.  I know she says she is okay if we are not engaged at that time, but feel she would prefer if we were.

I do not want to disappoint her and definitely not want her to lose face if we were to part after the wedding.

Critical you all reply so that I hope to make the right decision and not one out of haste.

thanks to all:

[Brian]

The Pressure mounts for me as now I am invited to her friends wedding in Thailand

So how much are her friend's parents asking for?

[Boo]

Caravelle, You don't need any more posts, if you can't read whats already been written then you have decided to pay the money.

All of the posts so far have told you that this amount is completly unreasonable & that you need to speak with your future wife & make her family see reason, if you are willing to pay 600k baht then so be it but be warned that you will then most likely be seen as an easy mark by all of her family.

If you have the funds to do that & if you really love this girl that much, then go for it, but if you can't afford it & I think you know already that this amount is stupid otherwise you wouldn't have posted in the first place, then make your position clear & see what happens.

Dont be pressurised into giving an answer if you are not ready to pay this amount just because she may lose face, if it's that big a deal then don't go to the freinds wedding until this situation is resolved.

Talk to her, she sounds like a good girl who is just following her families orders but if she is a nurse & living alone in BKK then she is probably more independent than most girls from the provinces & can handle herself against her parents.

[D80]

I agree with people here that you definitely should talk to her.  Most Thai girls I know who are going out with non-Thais are usually quite worry about the subject of dowry anyway since they know it is the most sensitive.  So, I would have thought she will be prepared to talk about it.

I think 600,000 baht is a bit much.  I obviously don't know much about the appropriate amount since my family don't believe in dowry.  But from what other people are saying here, it seems totally out of range.  

It's very important to take things slow.  Go to Thailand to see her and her family if you want.  Get to know them better.  Don't get too intimate with her (sorry, but some girls in Thailand will see physical intimacy as a sign of commitment) if you are still unsure about your future together.  

Communicate and compromise, that's the key to it.  Dowry is not a system written down in a stone or anything.  It is flexible and some families don't even demand it anymore given reasonable circumstances.

[nikkiDK]

I think 600,000 baht is a bit much.  I obviously don't know much about the appropriate amount since my family don't believe in dowry.

D80,

Yes! I agree with D80. My family never asked for dowry from any of their future in-laws (2 of them are farangs). If so, they could easily make a million without doing anything.  :laugh:  Just want to confrim ..Not every Thai family believe in dowry and Gents!..lots of fishs in a sea.

Nikki

[Thetyim]

How much do you know about this girls past ??

If she has been married before then the dowry should be zero.

Have you tried saying that falangs do not have a dowry system and that your parents will not allow you to give so much.

[issan2]

When I married my wife from Issan three years ago the dowry was 55k. I dont believe in dowry's and didnt like the idea. So I paid for all the wedding etc and she gave her savings to her parents (figure above).

600k just sounds like an amazing figure, tell her it will take you six years to save that much and see what happens

Good luck !

[wolf5370]

caravelle,

they may have just grabbed the figure out of the air.

As Thetyim says, if she has been married before, she attracts no dowry. If a dowry has been paid for her previously, she attracts no further dowry.

Personally, I would go the route mentioned here and say your parents will not allow it (she and they will understand this and should realise that you are bound by their decision) and pay for the wedding, party, rings and brides dress and give a present in an envelope to her parents if you feel like it, and leave it at that.

600k is princess money. I did the above for my wife - the daughter of a Navy officer of some rank and a virgin - it cost me about 100k (plus I bought them a large American Fridge as a present). They did not ask for a dowry. I asked my wife to be (I initiated it) and she asked her mother. After a two year chaperoned engagement, her mother knew and trusted me. I was asked simply to "help with the costs". I felt comfortable with this and paid for nearly the whole affair.

In 5 years of happy marriage my parents have never asked for a red cent. Although between myself and my wife's sister's husband (a Fin) we have bought them a new pickup, air con and a house is being built so they can move off the base. None of this was asked for, either by them or our wives. We bought them for our comfort when visiting and because we want them to be comfortable in their approaching old age.

In fact. When I had an accident (bike crash) and was laid up in hospital for a spell, they told me off for coming to visit because they were worried I would run out of money(?).

I am telling you this, because I could see this upfront. If your future inlaws are asking so much now, you may well be setting yourself up for a life of misery and the pressure may well ruin any chance of a good future relationship with this girl in your marriage. Not all Thai families are like this. Many truly just want their kids to be happy and cared for. Some, on the other hand, see their kids as an investment, and you as a farang as the golden goose return.

Talk to the girl. If she will not stand up to her family, or her family will not bend, wipe a tear and run for it! Sorry mate, trade a small hurt now for big one later.

[caravelle]

Hi to all,  I have read all responses with great interest and even searched the net with Copernic for additional info.

So now I have took the general advice and started to talk this subject, on chat and indepth with emails with my girlfriend.  When I have some response from my Lady I will share with you whether good or bad. Keep posting if you have not already  and thanks to all who have posted to date.

Caravelle

[Thetyim]

Caravelle,

We all know what you are going thru because many of us have been there before. Thailand has a strange way of pushing your emotions to the boundary.

We all want to help you, this is why we post here, so keep posting if you need more advice.

Best of luck.

[cold]

dear caravelle,

there was a film being shot on the island, and in the script the thai girl tells her farang boyfriend, when you marry me, you marry my family.  This says it all, you will be expected to continue that kind of financial support forever, if this is what they expect now.

Cold but only in outdoor temperatures  

[DaveYo]

Hi all and you to elfe.   Just reading about the post concerning the dowry and of about the problem with thai girls.  May i make a comment here.   First to the guy who is shelling out 600,000 to family.   Listen you married the girl, you not marry the family understand.   Keep that 600,000 in your pocket.  Now if the family hates you for not giving them the money, then you know you are a money tree to the family.  If your wife or girl that you are with, leaves you because of that fact, then you know all they want is your money.   Get with it.   Many thai women true can be very sincere to you, and those women i do appreciate, but i hate at same time thai women who have nothing but dollar signs in their eyes, and even more so to the family.  They have no business requesting your money in the first place.   Now off to the other subject.  I do understand very well how others look at a thai girl being with a farang.   My girl is Thai also, and has encountered such in past and I told her not to mind of the thought because they are narrow minded.  In fact I told her to laugh at them because they not know any better.  I not interfere with their business, so they best not interfere with our business.  When push comes to shove, these very same people came to us for help which has happened before and I tell them I am sorry no dice for the rice.  I do not intend to suffer at the expense of the others demise. I do not need their headaches. So if they can accept gays, why not accept thai girls being with farang and excuse me thai bar girls totally act way differently than a real thai girl.  I know so, and it is easy to tell.   So if the natives cannot see the difference I think they need more education, and not be so judgmental to color of skin or companionships.  :blues: Have a nice day all.

[John13]

Hi

I got married to a Issan farmer's daughter last month.  I offered 36,000 baht for a dowry.  It was accepted, however, my fiance said 40,000 baht was a better figure.  I said OK.  I had also paid 65,000 baht for the wedding and party; 8,000 baht for wedding clothing which included my wife, her son, and myself) and 12,000 baht for a wedding ring.  We are very happy, and my father in law was very pleased, we had a large party when almost everyone from the village attended.

[Boo]

Congratulations John13, I hope you and your wife are very happy & lucky in your future together. I love a story with a happy outcome.

Chokdee

[wolf5370]

Congrats John13, if you're happy then fine.  

Still think this was too much though.

The wedding stuff fine, but she had a son. Traditionaly you would not pay a red cent in dowry. Think, she is virtually unweddable to a Thai (assuming the family are normal Isaan farmers and not the wealthy landowner kind). You are taking the expense of caring for her and her kid from the family. If she was married before, then a dowry would already have been paid for her if she attracted one; otherwise, unmarried, she is a black-sheep and therefore does not attract one. This is the tradition; anything else is charity not culture.

[caravelle]

An Update Giving More Confusion !!

I have acted on the general opinion of all responses and started to talk with my Lady.  Well that was the initial idea but I was told by my Lady that its better to email than on a chat line.  Since then, I have sent 3 emails including parts of the responses here (names withheld), and other Information I have found elsewhere.  After waiting for several days for a reply, I had to ask whether she had read the emails, she said that she had and it would be better to talk In BKK.  I will be visiting her and her Parents then, unless there is an earlier conclusion.  Seems she is wary to talk on the subject of dowry.  Thanks for viewing and replies, I will update as and when there is worth news.

Thanks,   Caravelle

[Brian]

Caravelle,

Seems to me that she was unaware that there is a forum for "water buffalo" here.

She was under the impression that you would just pay up. Now that you have decided that it should be negotiated she doesn't know what to say or do, so she is delaying the conversation until she has you back under her spell.

[DaveYo]

Hmmmmm, I also suspect too that she is having second thoughts about this deal that is involved, because the guy now sort of tipped her off that this money tree is really not for sale to the family, and of course common sense dictates that she got a dilemma now with her family who is pressuring her to ante up this dude with some of his confetti!   Either way now she knows that her cover is blown and she is not only looking but thinking and trying to buy some time for another way to come up with the good excuse or reasoning to still get his gold not only for her but for her family too.   This is all too often going on in Thailand from these girls.  They just love playing on a persons feelings and try hard to make you feel guilty and once this develops you get a soft heart, and once they have you right where they want you to be, they make sure you have no way out of it, or get the gold and then presto disappear!   Very common ploy by them and this is part of the Thailand bullshit game.   Dave :blues:

[pnustedt]

I asked my Thai wife her opinions on this perennial subject and thought her response would be of interest:

She said that fat old ugly men from the west would not expect to meet beautiful young girls in their own country who find them attractive - why should they come to Thailand and expect it.

When I replied that it seems to happen she was quite firm that "no . . . the girls find the lifestyle that they seem to offer attractive". When a young girl marries an old man she will still be sexually attractive (and active) long after her farang husband's expiry date and she would still be expected to be faithful to him - why shouldn't she/her family expect compensation?

When I asked why her family didn't ask for a dowry from me she replied that was because we're both old and ugly and we'll probably expire together!

The logic seems to be that if you're coming to Thailand for something/someone you wouldn't normally expect at home then expect to pay for it - and following the logic, if you're an old man looking for a young attractive wife, 600,000 baht doesn't seem to be outrageous!

[DaveYo]

Interesting, many of us men are not fat my friend and I for one is in very good shape just like I was 20 years old and still can carry myself and I just turned 50.  Besides that being experienced where it counts, goes a long way.   Now I do admit I have seen many farangs in Bangkok etc., way out of shape and even I can puke and wonder what this Thai girl sees in this awful pitiful person.   On the other hand, I too have seen many farangs in such good shape, all they want is one thing when they come to Thailand, and sorry to say the Rep is out about Thailand, and it is very hard to do away with it.  So my friend the opinion from your girl is partly correct, and sure why not if the guy is a dork, let him spend it till he cries.  But if the guy is for real and truly sincere, in shape and all and is worthy to last like 3 decades or more then it is a different story.  This is my opinion  :blues:

[pnustedt]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[elfe]

exactly DaveYo, why should you get something cheap or even for free in Thailand what you could not even buy in your home country? :cool:

[caravelle]

Good For You Dave Yo  

Like you, at times I cringe when I see a young

Beautiful Thai Lady hand in hand with a Dork, and can understand this situation as a business exchange.

Some of us are in good shape with own hair and teeth and more than money alone to offer.

For me, I am not so much concerned with my Lady's Family although I will show respect.  Not only sense and experience is on offer here. No need to think of babies but to enyoy a good lifestyle including travel,dining out, holidays and not chained to the kitchen sink.  Not forgetting the financial security and feelings of Love/Respect.

It seems as said before that my Lady shys away from the subject, and to put the emotional pressures on once I am with her. Yes I believe its her family that forces her in this way.  If there is no reasonable compromise then they will find out something that may surprise them.

I have a big heart but will put the choice for my Lady of me or her Family.  No doubt we have all been  hurt before and protect ourselves not to hurt again. My last hurt was about £90,000 and all house contents  in my divorece 6 yrs ago.

Although I do not want to, but I do have the power to walk away.

More updates to follow and thanks to all.  

[Rinrada]

"My last was about £???,000 and all house contents  in my divorce 15 yrs ago."........

All part of the old journey through life and I bet you promised yourself that you would NEV-VER ever do it again.

When I got "bumped" I was lucky because my local friendly Building Society Manager fully understood the situation (him as well).and he agreed to extend my mortgage to pay for divorce... or rather for an extention to the house????

I am still paying for the Bloody extension 15 years later....

however.

present wife as good as gold (yeah did it again)modern bangkok,no dowry(old fashioned and stupid only for low class poor people-her words)I said I would give her 50 Bt.and 10 satang and we have NOTHING in joint names,she has her own house,land a a couple of condos in BK and same me in London..and thats it ....KIS.

On the Subject..."Beautiful Thai Lady hand in hand with a Dork etc..etc...how old are you/she?

Theres abit of a rule of thumb 5-10 years difference over 40 -nil payment and then on a 10k Bt basis so a 50 year old guy and a 20 year old burd would be 30 times Bt 10K =300 K.

I thing its all a bit quaint (did not say stupid-not for me to say)...goodluck

[D80]

Well, plenty of people have told you about their view.  I agree with most.  

But looking at it from a more positive view, she may be pretty uncomfortable talking about dowry simply because she knows the subject is a controversial one for foreigners who are not familiar with the system.  So you should bear that in mind along with all the warnings you've got.

I have given advice to some Thai women I knew with non-Thai partners when the dowry subject comes up.  And believe me, these genuine women do get really worried that their partner will misunderstand them and think of them as another money grabbing scammers.

My family don't agree with the dowry system as I've said before.  But some people from the older generation (or those who are very traditional) still believe in it strongly.  I don't think they should all be seen so negatively.  If the dowry is their genuine belief and they are not out to get their hands on your saving or anything, it is usually given back to the newly wed or spent on a new house for the couple.  

I have a friend who is from a higher class in Thailand (sort of minor royalty) and her family still believes in dowry.  So, it's not just for poor or lower class really.  It depends on what the family values as well.  My Thai cousin is getting married to a woman from a proper family and he still has to pay the dowry.

Having said that there are lots of scammers about who abuse the system.  So, be careful as well as gentle in negotiating the subject.  You've had plenty of good warning from people here.  You don't want to be taken for a ride but at the same time you don't want to offend people either.

Good luck!