Dowry

[DaveYo]

Hi all, back again.  I just turned 50, yet kinda look like still 35 give or take.  As of my girl, she almost 40, and we both went thru a divorce, and I posed question to her last night about dowry.  She confirms to me that Thai Males pay way less than what farangs do, scale wise, and such is well known in Thailand as Farangs Scale, but dowrys to the Girls Family only apply to SINGLE FEMALES and VIRGINS mostly practiced by the Chinese line in Thailand.  As I am told if girl is not a virgin or was married either religiously/not registered or legally registered previously and age of Female is under 30 dowry to family NOT APPLY.  Just small dowry to woman you marry for her protection, such as security should YOU ever decide to leave her in future for another fresh girl.    This can be bank account or land purchase or place of residence such as a fully paid Apartment, or Condo or Home etc., to give your wife some security.  She says no Thai women likes to be left on the street should Romeo find another Thai girl and fly from the nest.   We both been married for 12 years to different spouses, mine was legit, hers was on religious grounds.   She owns land of over 6 Rai, given to her from Father, and I own property and home here USA, so we are not that poor by no means yet we both struggle with the everyday bullshit.  We both want to be together, and she knows me that I am no pushover, so we both made arrangements together ourselves to secure our futures in case of disaster.  Anyway she says don't give Dowry to family unless girl is SINGLE AND VIRGIN!  She says you (have the option) should  give her Security Dowry to the bride herself for her protection and this way she gets to keep her honor and face and Reputation to her people and family should disaster strike and not be left with anything at the end, and that is all as a sincere gesture and intent for marrying the girl.  Nothing else. She says you need to take care of your new wife first because she will be the one making a family for you if you want children etc.  That comes from a REAL THAI FEMALE AS QUOTED.   Bye for now  :blues:

[DaveYo]

Hi Elfe.  This is my reply to your comment.  Anyway, we cannot do that here in USA!   Here in USA is totally different and the marriage protocols simply blows my mind.  The word Dowry here is extinct, but the name goes on in other terms being so identified.  In fact it is the Bride's PARENTS WHO PAY THE BIGGEST PART OF WEDDING EXPENSES.  In a sense the name Dowry got reversed here   Long live the Male species in America.   So all in all, I can say this much, if one truly understands True Thai Women, vs Bar Girls, you can really see the difference instantly.  True Thai Girls never kiss, or hold hands, or touch the male body let alone let him touch her in public, always dress appropriately, never stay with the guy in his crib unless accompanied by another girl or friends, and they behave like a woman with manners etc, and rarely allow sexual intimacy and save themselves if possible till they are married.   Bar girls let you know pure fact, and they expose themselves so openly I even LAUGH because seeing it, makes me wonder about the mans intelligence or his motives and the games they play on each other as each struggles to get the upper hand in their objectives.    So, I speak as the blues sing my favorite songs   :blues:

[D80]

Daveyo,

I agree with most of the stuff that you say.  But the rules of the dowry is not so set in stone as that.  Even if the woman is not a virgin but she has never been married before, the guy (Thai or farang) usually still pays the dowry, partly to honour her and to save face (as it is an insult to the woman if she has had sex without being married and got dumped).  It's usually more the case that if she had been married before (or has already had kids outside the marriage), then the dowry should not be requested.  

Virginity would be a very sensitive subject to approach to be honest, even when the girl is a virgin.  So I really wouldn't go so deep as to talk about whether she is a virgin.  Especially if she's a 'proper' Thai girl, it will cause lots of embaressment.  If she hadn't had sex, she will most likely think that you are insulting her, doubting her virtue.  And if she has, she will usually be very ashamed of that-I know a Thai girl who committed suicide because she felt so ashamed.  On that subject of virginity, it's best left for the girl to tell you herself or if you must, approach the subject very carefully.  I know some don't mind and are very liberal, but you can't be too careful really.   ???  

Also, as I said before, some Thai women don't practice the dowry system at all even if they are virgin and single.  

As regard to real Thai women, your observation is partly right.  Culturally, yes we are not supposed to be with a man alone if we're not married to him.  And again, culturally, that's how a proper Thai woman is 'expected' to behave.  But things have changed a lot these days and most young people don't observe such strict rules anymore, especially if they are from the city (like BKK).  You'll see more young people in BKK wearing short skirts, sleeveless tops, holding hands with their boyfriends (although anything beyond that is pretty rare and still frowned upon).  And they are just your average Thai women, really.  ::

Just want to expand on your observation, that's all.   :laugh:

[DaveYo]

Hi D80.  Oooooooops, I think I not really clarify the topic in specific form, but yep you refined it proper for me.  Thank you.   Virginity is not that important, however if a man find a woman a virgin, it is sheer bonus!   It's more whether or not she was married before- either way being religious or legit.  That is the key to it all.  Age however as explained to me is pretty general.  Most women after 30 expect the dowry of security to themselves as told by my Thai girl.  Younger ones if practiced go for both if honored etc.  Never thought virginity is taboo subject in Thailand, since sexual revolution is so prevalent, and I thought girls today are striving for that ancient status to some extent due to Aids and the other diseases.   Me confused sometimes what the young girls really strive for, but not that confused to know what they want eventually.   Oh as to my observation, heck my Thai girl will not even let me hold hands with her or let me sneak a kiss on her, or even want to come into my crib without someone with her.   She expects me to be her knight in shining armor, open the doors, and escort her proper and all. She knows all too well what we both do want and what it will lead to, so she smart and again, this makes me want her all the more     I do suspect she figured me out pretty good, and knows how I think of woman overall, so she uses this knowledge to the best of her advantage.  Either that or she likes the old fashioned treatment coming from me.  Oh last night not only did we broached on topic of dowry, but also topic of men hitting their women or beating on them.  Seems she says many thai males will beat on their women a lot, in private not in public.   How true is This?   I told her my hands have been clean for 50 years and counting, never raised it once against a woman or to a kid.  Anyway thanks for clarifying my opinion D80.  Have a good day  :blues:

[Brian]

I just turned 50, yet kinda look like still 35 give or take

I think we've heard this line before from Simon haven't we...

Well OK maybe it ok with give or take 15 years...

[D80]

Daveyo,

No probs, I'm only adding what I have seen and understood in my experience as a Thai woman.  

Virginity is less of a taboo these days but it is still one.  Many Thai men still strongly believe in it (for these types of men, even if they've already visited loads of prostitutes in their time, they will still expect their future wives to be 'pure').  

If you can read Thai, go to websites like Pantip or Sanook.com, and browse through their discussion boards.  Quite often you will see some freaks saying very nasty things about women who don't observe the strictest of the traditional ways, especially on the subject of virginity.  A woman who's had a sexual relationship with one serious boyfriend could easily be branded a 's***' by these people while a man who visit a brothel regularly would be seen as normal.  It's pretty disturbing really.  

I know a Thai girl who stays in an abusive relationship with her boyfriend, who have beaten her up and raped her, just because she lost her virginity to him.  Although close friends try to tell her to get out, she's been brainwashed into thinking that because he's 'had' her, she's worth nothing.  He told her that no one would ever want her because she's like a damaged good and that she should be grateful that he's willing to marry her (!).  

It's very sad and it makes me feel really angry.  Many girls, fortunately, don't feel this way anymore and would not trade in their life for the so-called virtue of being a virgin in this manner.  As I said, it's rare these days but still happens.  

From what you've told me, your girlfriend would count as someone from the 'older generation' (for want of a better word) and therefore is likely to be more conservative in the Thai ways ie. holding hands etc.  It has changed a lot now.  

As regard to Thai men beating up their partners, I think most Thai men with any trace of dignity in them would not even think of raising their hands to hurt a woman.  But it doesn't help that in traditional Thai culture, a man is of a higher status than a woman.  Some men still believe that his wife is his property and therefore he could do whatever he wants with her.  Again if you can read Thai, go to Pantip.com and you will find qutie a few men saying their wives are below them and that men and women are definitely not equal.  

From all the Thais that I've known, I know of 3 cases where the men beat up their partners on a regular basis (having said that I also know of one Thai-Farang couple where the farang husband beated his Thai wife up so badly she had to ask for help from a friend of mine to escape to a shelter).  Most people from the younger generation are not likely to tolerate that anymore (except in extreme circumstances like that Thai girl I told you about).  

In real Thai culture, the man is supposed to be the provider and protector of the woman in return for their higher social status.  The traditional way is the man provide and protect while the woman manage the house and care for him.  But just as anywhere else in the world, you get these chauvunistic bastards who abuse their positions.   ???

Sorry guys, I've been talking about things that are not that relevant to the topic....  just thought I would share my experience ...  hope you don't mind  

[DaveYo]

Interesting subjects D80.  By the way can I ask you per se a question???   What is the general average of income that the majority of Thai males make a month, verses thai women, vs to what a farang can make a month say average skills or just above in Thailand?  I know that many jobs are restricted and reserved for the Thai population, so where is a farangs best bet to work if one wants to work in Thailand and make a little side income to supplement his pension or investments???   Have never gotten a straight answer to this day.  I am thinking of like 40,000 baht minimum and upwards.  Oh by the way, hehehehehe, I don't know much Thai, but will be forced to learn it awful quick once i move there soon.  :blues:

[Rinrada]

FYI..ref average income between men and women.

This is a sample of jobs from an agency that I deal with...one of the better ones that dont charge the jobseeker.The rates are salary for a month...

Best Job at  (wont mention not spamming) FIO..          

26-June -2002 No

ADMINISTRATION  Staff.

Sex:                 Male / Female

Age:                 25 - 30  year.

Education:         Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                 Experience in Administration  of factory  for  

                      2-3 yrs up.

Salary               12,000 - 17,000 Baht

Place:               RAYONG

SALES

Sex:                  Male

Age:                  Any

Education:          Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                  Must    have Japanese test  Level 3 up.                    Welcome New graduated.

                       Working about  visiting customers.

Salary                15,000 - 20,000 baht

Place:                CHONBURI

PROGRAMMER

Sex:                 Male / Female

Age:                 25 - 33  year.

Education:         Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                 Have knowledge in Visual Basic Exp. 2-3 yrs, Up.

Salary               15,000  Baht

Place:               PATUMTANI

CAD/CAM Operator

Sex:                 Male, Female

Age:                 25 - 33  year.

Education:         Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                 Welcome New graduated. Can operate CAD/CAM

Salary              15,000  Baht

Place:               PATUMTANI

SALES CO-ORDINETER Chief or Supervisor

Sex:                 Female

Age:                 28 years up.  

Education:         Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                 Experience in field of Sales/Marketing or sales co-ordinator at least 3 yrs

                       Ever work in supervisor class is advantage.

Salary               15,000 - 30,000  baht

Place:               AYUTHAYA

SAFETY

Sex:                 Male / Female

Age:                 30  years.

Education:         Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                 Have experience 5 yrs up3.                  

                      Make & Check document .

Salary               20,000 - 30,000 Baht

Place:               BANGKOK

SALES ENGINEERING  Sales

Sex:                 Male / Female

Age:                 25 - 35  years

Education:         Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                 Have own car & license. Have Experience  in

                      Electronic or Sales an advanctage

Salary               15,000 - 30,000  Baht

Place:               NONTABURI

PURCHASING  Staff.

Sex:                 Male / Female

Age:                 23 - 30 year.

Education:         Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                 Have experience at least 1 years  in      

                       purchasing  and overseas.

Salary               15,000 Baht

Place:               AYUTHAYA

COST  ACCOUNTANT  Staff.

Sex:                 Male / Female

Age:                 22 - 35  years

Education:         Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                 Have experience in Cost  

                      Account about 2 years.

                      Can comunicate English.

Salary               15,000  Baht

Place:               AYUTHAYA

PROGRAMMER

Sex:                 Male, Female

Age:                 Any

Education:         Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                Have knowledge about Visual Basic              

                      Average in English.

Salary               12,000 Baht

Place:               BANGKOK

SALES  Staff.

Sex:                 Male / Female

Age:                 Any

Education:         Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                 Have experience in Sale about 2 yrs.

                      Can speak Japanese is preferable .

                       Can drive car is preferable.

Salary               10,000 - 15,000 Baht

Place:               AYUTHAYA

SECRETARIAL

Sex:                 Female

Age:                 22 - 27 years

Education:         Bachelor's Degree.

Skill:                 Welcome new graduated.Good in English.

Salary               12,000  Baht

Place:               SAMUTPRAKARN

Remarks:           Prapadang.

just as well the buses are 3 .50 -5 Bt.and a portion of rice or bamee can be had for 10Bt.

[DaveYo]

Rinrada, I would like to contact you personally.  Is there a chance we can have a private converse.  There is some business i would like to discuss with you.  On the serious side of the note.   I would appreciate it very much.   Let me know here and how I can get in touch with you.

E-mail  Handle is [email protected].   :blues:

[naja]

I know of a young Thai man who had no money to pay the dowry ,or even to pay for a small wedding party.What did he do? Got his girlfriend to move in with  him at his mother's house .The girl's mother is  not very happy about the live-in,but as she lives 90 km away the young couple rarely see her.Out of sight,out of mind.

In other posts when farangs are discussing marriage to a Thai,the inevitable question of supporting the family crops up.This cultural trait is not confined to the Thais .To my knowledge it is also found among the Indonesians and the Filipinos.Why shouldn't a relatively wealthy farang help support his Thai family ,or his Indonesian or Filipino family for  that matter?

[sevinnow]

Really I am amazed at the question!   600,000 baht is alot of money for a western girl never mind a poor thai family.

My advice:  Build a house for your future and believe me that is a good FAMILY inheritence for the other members of your G/F family's family and pay for a good Wedding party....then close the door from any further demands.

You may get a reputation for a "tight farang" but at least you won't be remembered as a foolish farang with his money as they wave goodbye to you at BKK Airport.

Sev

::

[DaveYo]

Naja, as comment to your mentioning why farangs who have money should be supporting the family.  I have no idea where you are from, but just suppose you get married to a girl, and you have to support her family and the rest of the brood with a fixed income.  Would you like your hard earned dollars going in that direction?  Secondly, the family has lived all this time, and has managed very well without you.  So, if you got tons of money to burn, hey go for it and support all of them.   Now as of the farang not having money etc, to provide for wedding, or dowry, this means money is tight and income is obviously of question to make the rest of the criteria so mandated in Thailand, not to mention to plan their own futures.  All too often many farangs that do move to Thailand usually end up broke within 3 to 4 years.  Ask around and you will find out.  I know Philippines all too well (was married to one of them) and the requirements is not as cumbersome as Thailand is.  You can live in the Philippines without having to have ex amount of dollars per month or year.  However in Philippines cost of living over there is 25% more than in Thailand, and 50% less than here in USA.  I use USA as base value wise in comparing to other countries.   Example, Fridge here USA 500.00, Philippines it is 250.00 and in Thailand 125.00.  Understand.   If you read about this dowry in question, I now have a Thai woman, and she is pretty smart about all this, and she gave a very reasonable point of view concerning it.  In fact my friend the issue of Dowry is actually reversed here in USA!  The girls family pays for the chunk of the wedding, not the guys family or the man.  So the name of Dowry is extinct here in USA but renamed to another category and guess who got hit with the tabs.    Read the rest of the articles in this subject and I do think you will catch on.   Have a good day my friend.  :blues:

[DaveYo]

Hey Sev, oh right on man, right on.  However, I do believe I have to pinch myself as to the Wedding.  Whew.  Have to be careful in this, cause it is known at times the family invites the whole town to the party!   Ah, we must use another alternative, Invitations on Demand, and proof at entrance,  and don't forget to make sure you have a cover charge for entry to party, at least this will recoup some of your expenses, or you might end up getting extra mistresses while you are drunk and seeing the stars glitter.  My girl told me about that story, poor fella, when he got sobered up found himself engaged again to 2 other girls before the night was over.  Whew.  Lucky for him, only one got honored and that was the legit one registered.  For him that saved the day!  :blues:

[keestha]

So much bitterness on this subject, whenever it crops up again in any Thailand related forum......To add a somewhat lighter note, maybe farang men being almost driven to insanity by the dowry issue, should  contemplate swapping Bangkok for New Delhi. In India the girl, or rather her family, has to come up with the dowry.

[D80]

Daveyo,

Rinrada has already answered your question I presumed.    

I wouldn't worry too much about the wedding if I were you.  We usually have a guest list these days and invitations are sent out to those we want to attend.  Your girlfriend's friends and relatives, however, will be expected to attend.

In a way, it is quite good for friends and family to attend.  Apart from the obvious reason that you get to party with all of them     In a Thai wedding, the guests will usually give small amount of money in an envelope to the bride and groom.  Usually this amount of money will be used to cover the cost of the wedding in the end or the couple could save it for whatever they want.  I have known of cases where the 'donations' from friends and family exceed the cost of the wedding!  Profit for all!  hehehehe  

[DaveYo]

Actually I need Rinrada for something personal and private.  Had nothing to do with the forum here.  It is purely business.  As to all this, I did know a Dowry existed in India, but I did not know it is the same like in USA.  Anyway, it just happens that us men when we feel our pockets getting nice and comfy, we see it get deflated by women as usual, and when that happens we squawk like a hen!  Have to do this once in awhile so that we can have our sanity.  I am sure the men will agree,  so girls I just wonder which is better, girls or guys?  Me scratching my head here B)  :blues:

[Boo]

Hey DaveYo, Are you referring to who is better, girls or guys, generally, do you really want to start this thread, I think not!

I think what you mean is, who do we think should pay?

Well personally I think in this day & age then for your average couple, they should pay.

Pretty much everyone I know in the UK who has gotten married in the last 5 years has stumpted up for their own wedding bash with either parents making a small donation or offering to pay for the bar/ wedding dress etc.

If it is a high society wedding, with lots of expense then both parents, or the richer of the 2 should pay, as a young couple starting out cannot be expected to pay for something that big (unless they are loaded too, of course)

In the UK it is also tradition that the brides parents pay for the whole thing but most girls that I know didn't want to go this route as they felt that, as they were already living together, it would be a bit hypocritical. An average wedding in the UK can set you back about £8,000, approx 530,000 baht, so many couples have a long engagement so that they can afford it.

With regards to weddings & dowrys in thailand, I think that paying for a wedding party is sufficiant & any family, rich or poor, that expects a foreigner to stump up 1,000's of baht for their daughters, are either incredibly old fashioned or taking the guy for a ride. That said, a decent, average, wedding party can cost over 50,000 baht or more anyway, so if you pay any more than that in dowry, I think the guy should be 100% sure about his new bride.

[Brian]

if you pay any more than that in dowry, I think the guy should be 100% sure about his new bride.

I think that both the bride and groom should be 100% sure, regardless of anything else..

[Boo]

QUOTE - I think that both the bride and groom should be 100% sure, regardless of anything else..

you are completly right Brian, I was just talking in context of paying over a large amount of money to a family/woman that you may not know too well.

[caravelle]

More than 600,000 Baht to consider!!!!!

I had already had the same thought that it can cost about £8,000 to marry here in U.K.  Its true to say that the cost is can also be shared by bride, groom and both sets of Parents.

But additional things to consider aree: The Lady requiring a passport and visa, airline ticket, additional clothes to suit U.K. climate. Satellite tv capable of receiving Thai tv. 2nd PC with Thai Language installed and Internet ready.

marriage at a Registry Office and then blessed at a church, followed by a celebration party.  Enrolment into a college for Intro - English language. Possibly a short stay honeymoon in Paris or Rome once settled here in UK

All the above has been discussed and agreed already with my Lady and myself.

It seems that although I have the benefit of Love and Feelings, I willingly take on the added responsibilities of a Husband.  Why would I then feel it agreeable to pay a large amount as 600,000 baht to her parents? who essentially relinquish all responsibility.

It has also been mentioned that a monthly "pension"could also be expected.

Conclusion so far is:

Money makes the world go round.

I would rather willingly pay a reasonable amount of Dowry purely out of respect.  Furthermore, I think it only right that any other monies are for my Lady's and my happiness/security.

Remember we all can have other responsibilities here also, for me its a 71yr Mother and a 21yr daughter ( just finished University with the usual loan, overdraft situation).

Her Parents survived before we  formed a relationship and will continue to survive in the future.  If less greedy today with the dowry amount, they can get better assistance from me in the future.

But Hey!! at least we are still alive  

And feel my heart will overcome my mind as I am 100% sure and feel my Lady is also 100% sure

ps. I am 48yr and my lady 32yr

[D80]

caravelle,

Granted that it'll be difficult before she learns enough English and settles down.  But once your lady is more settled, would it not be possible for her to find work here, especially with the shortage of nursing staff in the NHS??  I think you said she is a nurse in Thailand? I have heard that they employ many Filipinno nurses in the NHS now (although they have the advantage of speaking better English).  That should help the situation a bit, especially regarding the 'pension' money for her parents.  Even if she can't be employed by the NHS, I'm sure she will be able to find somewhere as a nursing staff (in  a care home, maybe)   ::

It's a cultural obligation (sort of) for the son/daughter to support their parents when they can't work anymore (since Thailand has no welfare system, although lots of parents would actually save up themselves).  Although my mum & dad never asked for anything, I still try to send them small amount of money (which they don't accept) or treat them to nice meals etc now and then.  So, if your lady can work herself, then she can send as much money as she'd like.  This way, she'll be able to save up for herself too.  And to be honest, most self respecting Thais would be more inclined to take such responsibility towards the parents themselves and not pile that on their partners (unless the partner requested that she should give up work and therefore has no way of earning her own income).  

The partner could provide 'some' help but from what I have seen (in my experience anyway), it's usually not so boldly asked for.  I know some Thai-farang couple where the wife does not/could not work here and therefore cannot support the parents herself.  The husband usually pay the wife her allowance and she has to budget her parents 'pension' out of that herself.  It seems to work.

I agree that the 'cost' of you two being together is a lot more than the dowry or the wedding itself.  I'm sure that your lady's parents will understand if they are genuine enough.    

By the way, some of the costs you've mentioned could probably be reduced.  I don't know about others but I would do without the Thai Satellite (if it's an absolute must, then it may be cheaper to get a cheap VCD player and stock up some cheap VCD from Thailand- after all cheap VCDs in Thailand can be as little as £1 each).  I wouldn't bother with 2nd pc either (you could install Thai language programme on your existing pc without much problem, besides, you don't want to spend time on separate computers logging on, do you?).  

Can you get blessed in church as well if your partner is not a christian?  Well, I remembered vaguely that we weren't allowed.... but then we weren't that interested in church wedding anyway... so another cost down for us.  You could also keep the party more moderate, I guess.  

For clothes to UK, there are loads of market places in Thailand where you can buy them quite cheaply (your lady should know where).  The department of export close to Lad Prao road (soi 23) usually have export fairs where you'll find clothes suitable for use abroad at cheap price.  Most students who are about to go study abroad buy clothes from there.  There are lots of stuff you can get for a bargain if you know where to look.  Also, behind Bi-yok building, there's a huge cloth market where you can buy lots of things really cheaply as well (best get your lady to go with a Thai friend cuz you'll get ripped off being a westerner!).

I hope that helps...

[DaveYo]

OK everybody.  I noticed we are getting off the track here for the poor fella concerning the Dowry.  As far as I can see here we have not gotten any updates concerning of what he is going to do, and also how the meeting turned out if it took place between his girl and her folks in Bangkok.  I am curious of this outcome and of what his decision is going to be, and I am sure all of us feel the same and is curious too.  Bottom line is from what I have read here the vast majority here say not pay the dowry, and from the small percentage here say pay a small amount but be wary.  Do we all agree on this statement?  Being that 600,000 is totally way out of line and even 100,000 is way out of line (in Baht terms).  So debates on between 30,000 to 50,000 Baht from the small percentage. ???  As to my scratchin of head, I was wondering if the Thai girls have it made marrying farangs, or if the Thai guys better off marrying a farang girl?   The other question is being is it better being a girl or boy in Thailand?  From my last visit I noticed lots of Thai males going switcheroo and tsk tsk, I did come across one that totally knocked me my socks off, and even went out of her way meeting me at the airport after transformation and this former he now a she definitely passed being a girl and had the girl parts.!  Such a scary thought, so now we all better double check ourselves if this is real or a guess?   :laugh:    :blues:

[pnustedt]

"Why would I then feel it agreeable to pay a large amount as 600,000 baht to her parents? who essentially relinquish all responsibility"

Caravelle - you have got this wrong - the parents do not have responsibility for their daughter, the daughter has responsibility for the parents! That's the way it is in Asia.

She will make payments to her parents for the rest of her life and this will be a bone of contention to you evermore. Remember that there is no social security system in LOS and stability relies upon the family system and all its drawbacks.

[enchanted]

Very interesting topic! Would like to share my point of view here..

We must understand that the dowry system is generallly an Asian cultural practice, hence this topic has certainly surfaced a cross-cultural dilemma...

Basically, the bottomline question is....do you believe in the dowry system? How much is deemed reasonable?

I agree that paying a 600,000 baht dowry is definitely daylight robbery! But how do we ascertain that the amount is reasonable if the dowry is subjective and determined by the lady's parents and there is no fixed benchmark to compare that the figure requested for is in line with the "market"? Who are we to say that it's daylight robbery if the parents feel that they have done a good job bringing up a respectable and honourable daughter and the amount of 600,000 baht is representative of how much they value their daughter. Must bear in mind that all human beings are unique and hence, every one commands their own price.

Speaking from an Asian's point of view, the dowry is an important cultural practice when a daughter marries out of her family. To repay her parents for bringing her up well, the husband-to-be will pay the dowry as a form of compensation as well as for the loss of the future care-giver of the parents. Assuming if the daughter does not ever get married, then she will be the one taking care of her aged parents till the day they die. In Western societies, regardless gender, most children move out of the nest and the aged parents are usually very independent. But in Asian societies, it is different. The sons are expected to take care of the parents because of the tradition that they are the ones who continue the family name and their wives married into the family. And if all the daughters are married out of the family, then the sons' wives will take over the duties expected of the daughters to take care of the aged parents. This is the reason why they are termed "daughters-in-law" and this is why they have to assume the responsibilities of the daughters.

So assuming that she is the only daughter they have, asking 600,000 baht is a reasonable valuation price for compensation of upbringing and the loss of the future care-giver. Maybe as Westerners, this may come as a culture-shock. But as a Asian, I feel that this is reasonable coupled with the understanding that this is just the initial valuation and it is subjected to changes depending on the future-son-in-law's personal valuation and bargaining power. If the man manages to lower the dowry by 50%, then it is expected of him to provide the other 50% in long term providence of lifestyle expenses. If he pays the full initial valuation price to marry the lady, then it is considered that all obligations have been fully paid for and minimal responsibility is expected in future for the upkeep of the wife's parents. Future upkeeping expenses will be on a volunteering basis.

I am speaking from a Chinese perspective. It may be related closely to the Thai's dowry system but there seems to be some discrepencies. From what I've read, regardless whether the man pays the full initial valuation for the lady he marries, he and his wife are expected to continue the obligation for the upkeep of the parents in the future. So guess we should take that into consideration and when meeting the parents, I think it would be wise to question the amount and clarify that if this amount if met, future obligations will be on volunteering basis.

Just my humble points....

[DaveYo]

Hi all, this is an addendum to the dowry comment just made from enchanted.  I will state this, in Asia, being in Thailand regardless of whether the girl or boy is married or not, Thailand has this particular belief and it is pretty straightforward. ( "The parents expect the children to take care of them in their later years, and usually this begins when the children reach some attainable age of making income".)  My girl just advised me of this prospect, since I too am marrying her, she also made it clear to me I am also marrying her family too, but her family is different in regards to having to come up with a dowry. ???   In a sense this is my dowry to her family as I am being informed.  They will sell her some land and I have to pay for the land and the other condition is that a home is built on her land to keep it in the family.  She negotiated this with her family without me knowing it. Sigh.  Also she knows how I feel about the dowry subject.   So dowry systems is being practiced in Thailand, but it varies depending upon families.  It is like a trade and barter system.  However my girl also said no matter what,  she has the responsibility to her parents along with the rest of her sisters, to take care of their food, housing and health costs etc., till they die and having this income to do so depends on what she and her sisters can afford, and usually it is the husbands who pick up the tabs!  or we get this from them      For us men, sigh we not want them mad, so we bow down and kiss our girls.   As I said the WOMAN at the end gets the upper hand and controls everything.   That is why I posted the question earlier, which is it better being a girl or a boy? so I continue to scratch my head.       :blues:

[caravelle]

WOW.... The Dilemma Has A Twist !!!!!

Its been a while since I last Posted, but what a suprise in here below, or should I say shock you?

As time gets nearer to me visiting BKK my relationship seems so strong on the surface.  However, it has come to my attention and 100% guaranteed backed up with proof something, well up to you whether shock or suprise.

She has communicated with several guys how good they look and she can wait for them till they can get to BKK.

Asked me my opinion about going out for a meal with a guy she met on a Dating site.  I said I was against the idea but up to her so she offered not to go.  In fact I have proof that she went for the meal and cinema.

Even now I know she Instant messages a guy while we are also Instant Messaging.  The content from her not so shockng but he seems to like to announce he is naked with webcam on.

Seems shocking to me but very real.  Its my intention to keep quiet and go to BKK as planned and meet the Parents.  When the subject of Dowry comes up, I will confront her with the proofs I have.. Of course I will not confront her with her Parents Present.  Maybe I kid myself that the others are a kind of game and me its so serious???  Or I just cannot accept the truth as it really is??

The next 3/4wks can be very interesting  

In the meantime, thanks for all the input and views, I shall re read all in the coming days

More Confused !!!

[chonabot]

Caravelle, if  it were me, I would make her aware of these things before  I went to Bkk , email the evidence to her, give her time to realise the levity of your findings.

If someone was genuine , this wouldn't be happening...

Good Luck

[caravelle]

Thanks for the quick advice Chonabot and tempted to take it.

However, the flight ticket is in my hands paid for and non refundable, the 1st 5 days hotel is also paid for but possibly refundable.

I've worked so hard since my last visit in April I feel I have earnt a break, but would be better if circumstances were different.

So rightly or wrongly I go and confront in person, maybe I am alone the rest of the holiday but better than waste the holiday completely.  

But think it better I do not show my hand until we return from her family in the Provinces.

Caravelle

ps. I noticed something on my forehead  M*G, wonder what it can mean? but better to see it now than later for sure

[pnustedt]

So sorry to hear the bad news. Go to Bkk and have a great time - dump her before you go, try to forget her, and concentrate on enjoying yourself. There's plenty of fish in the sea!

[DaveYo]

Oh man-o-man.  Listen up Caravelle.   Ditch the girl PRONTO.  If you going just change the dates of departure like a day or two earlier or later.   Ditto, also find another place to stay and enjoy your stay there without the woman.  DUMP HER NOW, AND SAY ADIOS AMINGOS.  She is playing on you and once you raised up the question of the Dowry to her she got tipped off that you coming to your senses and catching on to her game.   Now she likes looking at nud_e man on the web cam, so give yourself a break.  She not the right one for you, so don't waste another Baht for her stupidity.  Got to admit this girl is an intermediate as of the game itself.  She was cool all the way up to the Dowry snafu.  You are indeed very lucky to have wised up and even more so she let you get the real scoop of what she doing which is another big baddy she did and suicidal which she really is saying this relationship is OVER.  So, SHOW her the direction and tell her to walk hard and fast and vamoose.  Forget her parents caravelle.  They could care less about you.  Let them wonder what the heck went on.  I got a feeling they behind it too.  But they are far more experienced than that girl and they are near pro in this field or pros themselves.  Do your shopping around in Bangkok my friend, there are so many pretty looking girls there your head will spin and it becomes tough to pick the right one.  Trust me, it is happening with me when I am there the last two times.  Go far and go long my friend, and if YOU  use the popsicle the right way, you will be happy.  Keep us posted and let us know your outcome.       :blues: