As A Foreigner Why Is "buying" Better Than Renting?

[Heng]

I think that Heng has focused on something here. The farang who come here at age 40 onward, and expect all the privileges that go with third generation landed immigrants (or tenth generation native stock), are fooling themselves, leading to discontent and whinging. If you come here after age 40 with less than a million euro in net worth, unable to be self-employed, you have elected to be a lower class immigrant, and the rules are not in your favor. But if you make some leuk-krung, they might build up a family fortune in another 40 years. We cannot walk in with 100K euro and expect to buy Thailand.

True enough - and Heng - I wasn't making personal references to you - rather the socio-economic reality. Your points are good ones - many of us go through a denial stage. Then reality sets in (I reckon it takes around 5 or 6 years for that second stage to occur). The choice then becomes stay or go - sounds simple enough - yet a tough call to make.

Wasn't taking it personally, G. Was simply questioning your generalizations (I think how you mentioned on another thread how you thought that the Sino-Thais with Mercedes and BMW's shopping in Emporium and Paragon were likely those whose assets were acquired through corrupt means). While I don't fit that bill -I ride in a rather beat up Toyota minivan or drive myself around in an old Camry-, most of the older more wrinkled Hengs fit that stereotype, although we have never been a "connected" nor corrupt family by a longshot.

[Heng]

And it's totally understandable that many folks find that difficult to accept, although it's not just the '40 onwards' crowd. Most folks from the "want it now" generation (plenty of locals and foreigners, young and 'older' alike in this group) don't make plans or attempt to provide a foundation for the next generation.

in my view the best foundation for the next generation is to spend -whatever the financial status allows- on their education.

That's my view as well. Education and knowledge -both formal and informal- is the mortar that holds all of the accrued assets -which IMO are nothing more than conveniently placed building materials- together and at the same time allows the family to expand and grow. It's no different than the way that most corporations look at their business(es).

[lioness]

Apart from any financial consideration, owning your own home gives a nice comfortable feeling, you aren't at the landlords mercy, you please yourself, and it is yours, a base and a little piece of privacy that noone can interfere with.

[Schooner]

Same old story from the same old posters who probably couldn't afford to buy anyway. It's all speculation being offered. Here is the reality. There are thousands of houses out there that are currently owned by nominee companies (mine being one of them) when the goverenment first anounced the enforcment of the non foregner ownership and put a stop to the creation of nominee companies (many are still being created) we all freaked out a bit, but the reality is that nothing has happened. No one has lost there property due to having a nominee company ownership and In my opinion if you already have one it is a safer bet than a 30 year lease.

When I sell my house I will actually sell the company and the papers will not even see the land office. The government has stated several times that they have no intention of pursueing companies like mine. The reality is that they do not have the resources to do it if they wanted to.

Here's another fact I bought my house because I wanted a comfortable place to live in and it made my time here so much more pleasent. For the last year I have been back in the states and the place has been rented to a very nice couple who being afraid to buy, are paying me rent of 32,000/month. I have about 4.5 million tied up in the house and lived there for two years. If I don't sell it than I can live with the current return which given the current uncertainty of the markets is a healthy return that is relitvely safe. If I sold it tomorrow I will have made almost 20% just on the dollar exchange.

When I talk to others who actually own property that is desireable. (A condo is a huge concrete echo chamber where if someone farts 30 floors below you hear it and every one is mismanaged to rob the farang IMO) They are in similar situations.

Again, look at the billions that are being invested in Thailand by huge develpers with huge staff's to analyze all the growth data. Apparently they are stupid and the handfull of posters here are the smart ones.

[Tony121]

I doubt all houses in Thailand go down in value it's alot to do with location and the quality of the construction.

Its up to each individual to buy or rent, personally I built my own house something I could only dream of in my own country, and a lot cheaper then buying a house from a developer and over 10 years cheaper than renting.

[mikethevigoman]

regardless of what you decide to do, always remember that.....

Agreeing to pay a lender interest for the next 30 years, or 10,950 days (or whatever the terms of the mortgage are), in order to live in a home that is not yours does not make you a homeowner. It makes you a homedebtor.Putting little or nothing down and signing up for a loan does not make you a homeowner. It did not give you special status versus renters. It did not elevate you to a new class or socioeconomic status. It does not mean you have arrived.

HOMEDEBTORSHIP IS NOT HOMEOWNERSHIP

but if you own the property free and clear, then congratulations as you actually own it

Well said, i always laugh when i hear these people "oh we have our own home," when in reality all they a lot of these have (for a few years anyway ) is usually a negative equity in a huge loan,,reposesions are at an all time high in the uk and no wonder with the price of houses and the average wage,at least in thailand they are ( for foreigners) affordable,even if you dont own the land its built on,.still a minefield though ,.imo,.

One of my neighbors in Ca. bought an 8 million$ beachfront property/house.

Sold it for 28 million$ a few years later to some internet tycoon.

Walked away with 15million $ profit.

According to you, he never owned it.

Back to the subject.. I would not 'invest' in Thailand real estate.

You missed the bit where i said for a few years did you ? ,and if he had a mortgage he didnt own it did he ? or have i missed something, if they make it over the few years then well done,.i too have made money on every property i have owned ( in the uk ) and thank god i kept my house there ,its gone up 50000 in the 18 months i have been away and im going back to it,.

[thaigene2]

I think that Heng has focused on something here. The farang who come here at age 40 onward, and expect all the privileges that go with third generation landed immigrants (or tenth generation native stock), are fooling themselves, leading to discontent and whinging. If you come here after age 40 with less than a million euro in net worth, unable to be self-employed, you have elected to be a lower class immigrant, and the rules are not in your favor. But if you make some leuk-krung, they might build up a family fortune in another 40 years. We cannot walk in with 100K euro and expect to buy Thailand.

True enough - and Heng - I wasn't making personal references to you - rather the socio-economic reality. Your points are good ones - many of us go through a denial stage. Then reality sets in (I reckon it takes around 5 or 6 years for that second stage to occur). The choice then becomes stay or go - sounds simple enough - yet a tough call to make.

Wasn't taking it personally, G. Was simply questioning your generalizations (I think how you mentioned on another thread how you thought that the Sino-Thais with Mercedes and BMW's shopping in Emporium and Paragon were likely those whose assets were acquired through corrupt means). While I don't fit that bill -I ride in a rather beat up Toyota minivan or drive myself around in an old Camry-, most of the older more wrinkled Hengs fit that stereotype, although we have never been a "connected" nor corrupt family by a longshot.

Fair enough. I know I rant a lot about the sino-thai thing - but I think it's with pretty good reason in the Thai context. My wife is also part Chinese and, as in your case, far from well-connected. Still, unlike your case, none of the wrinkled spouse's family has a Benz - far from it. So how does one raise 300,000 US Dollars to buy one these things for the elder worthy folks these days anyway? (perhaps the Heng's have used Benz) because I see a Thai doctor earns around 30,000 USD per year - that means he/she would need to commit TEN year's salary (100%) to buy that 'new' Benz - and of course would never eat nor pay rent nor send his/her kids to international schools in the interim. The math is simply a mysery to me..but I'm sure there is a an honorable and legal explanation to all of these things.

Edited April 6, 2008 by thaigene2

[Naam]

And it's totally understandable that many folks find that difficult to accept, although it's not just the '40 onwards' crowd. Most folks from the "want it now" generation (plenty of locals and foreigners, young and 'older' alike in this group) don't make plans or attempt to provide a foundation for the next generation.

in my view the best foundation for the next generation is to spend -whatever the financial status allows- on their education.

Well there is always a first time.... and for the first time ever I find myself in complete agreement with Naam.

miracles happen

[Heng]

I think that Heng has focused on something here. The farang who come here at age 40 onward, and expect all the privileges that go with third generation landed immigrants (or tenth generation native stock), are fooling themselves, leading to discontent and whinging. If you come here after age 40 with less than a million euro in net worth, unable to be self-employed, you have elected to be a lower class immigrant, and the rules are not in your favor. But if you make some leuk-krung, they might build up a family fortune in another 40 years. We cannot walk in with 100K euro and expect to buy Thailand.

True enough - and Heng - I wasn't making personal references to you - rather the socio-economic reality. Your points are good ones - many of us go through a denial stage. Then reality sets in (I reckon it takes around 5 or 6 years for that second stage to occur). The choice then becomes stay or go - sounds simple enough - yet a tough call to make.

Wasn't taking it personally, G. Was simply questioning your generalizations (I think how you mentioned on another thread how you thought that the Sino-Thais with Mercedes and BMW's shopping in Emporium and Paragon were likely those whose assets were acquired through corrupt means). While I don't fit that bill -I ride in a rather beat up Toyota minivan or drive myself around in an old Camry-, most of the older more wrinkled Hengs fit that stereotype, although we have never been a "connected" nor corrupt family by a longshot.

Fair enough. I know I rant a lot about the sino-thai thing - but I think it's with pretty good reason in the Thai context. My wife is also part Chinese and, as in your case, far from well-connected. Still, unlike your case, none of the wrinkled spouse's family has a Benz - far from it. So how does one raise 300,000 US Dollars to buy one these things for the elder worthy folks these days anyway? (perhaps the Heng's have used Benz) because I see a Thai doctor earns around 30,000 USD per year - that means he/she would need to commit TEN year's salary (100%) to buy that 'new' Benz - and of course would never eat nor pay rent nor send his/her kids to international schools in the interim. The math is simply a mysery to me..but I'm sure there is a an honorable and legal explanation to all of these things.

Hadn't even noticed any ranting actually. I think Gene does it from time to time, but even then I could only recall that particular automobile post, mostly because I found it kind of funny to think of some of my rather square and old fashioned relatives as 'connected or corrupt.'

As for the cars, they are now most certainly used, and probably least of what would you would find perplexing if you're taking average salaries of doctors to be 'top end' on the local income scale. Not much of a mystery really, just plain ol' business. I'm not one to speak for my relatives nor do I like to get into too many specifics, like an good Confucian (not to mention that it doesn't pay to have people resent you)... but I'm far from being any kind of medical doctor but probably make more just selling gold fish in a few months than most doctors make in a year. And that's just one item # out of hundreds in just one division of my pet fish-orchid-aquatic plants business, which is just one of a handful of my businesses. You can extrapolate from there. So there's the secret. Goldfish.

Also, not to sell doctors short, plenty of doctors own other businesses as well. I have a cousin who is a dentist, has a humble two branch practice, but also owns a latex exporting company which employs about 400 people. Being around latex all the time got his entrepreneurial spark going.

edit: my bad, that was a miscalculation. A few MONTHS of gold fish NOT a few WEEKS.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Heng

[thaigene2]

Goldfish and Condoms - sounds like a winner.

[Heng]

Raw latex actually, although yes, most do end up as condoms and surgical gloves.

Bend over!

[Heng]

Apart from any financial consideration, owning your own home gives a nice comfortable feeling, you aren't at the landlords mercy, you please yourself, and it is yours, a base and a little piece of privacy that noone can interfere with.

That's human nature. People inherently NEED their own personal space. Some people can satisfy that need through leasing (and decorating to their own tastes, having a special corner/den/cubicle/etc.) but for many that isn't enough and they need to have papers that say it is really their own space (for this lifetime anyway). That's why this is often a touchy subject.

[12DrinkMore]

This topic has gone on a few wild swings. Here is my pennyworth.

It is very easy to spend money and buy a property in Thailand. It is, on the other hand, very difficult to sell it again. There are also a number of legal fees, taxes etc., that also come into the equation.

I have lived in a number of locations in Thailand, and have often thought, WOW! I must buy this piece of land and build a house. 10 years down the line and I am VERY happy not to have bought anything. Renting is much cheaper, no problems, fed up, then I can leave IMMEDIATELY. Sure, I don't rent the sort of property I would build for myself, preferring to rent the same properties that the Thais rent. So I spend maybe between 3,000 and 6,000 Baht/month on rent, and the landlord has the problem when the termites eat the roof, or the neighbour opens a karaoke bar.

So you want to build a house in Nakhon Nowhere for your girlfriend and her family? Yeah, try living out there in the rice fields for a few months.

My advice is to rent a place for a couple of years and see if this is really where you want to be. Phuket, that self professed jewell in the Andaman sea, is, in my opinion, rapidly developing into a slag heap. Try out Hua Hin on the weekend and see if you really want to put up with all the rich Bangkokians out on a weekend break. Samui is heading downhill quickly. I dread to think what these places will look like in 30 years.

Ten years ago paradise, five years ago tolerably OK, today I couldn't live there, in another five years....

[12DrinkMore]

This topic has gone on a few wild swings. Here is my pennyworth.

It is very easy to spend money and buy a property in Thailand. It is, on the other hand, very difficult to sell it again. There are also a number of legal fees, taxes etc., that also come into the equation.

I have lived in a number of locations in Thailand, and have often thought, WOW! I must buy this piece of land and build a house. 10 years down the line and I am VERY happy not to have bought anything. Renting is much cheaper, no problems, fed up, then I can leave IMMEDIATELY. Sure, I don't rent the sort of property I would build for myself, preferring to rent the same properties that the Thais rent. So I spend maybe between 3,000 and 6,000 Baht/month on rent, and the landlord has the problem when the termites eat the roof, or the neighbour opens a karaoke bar.

So you want to build a house in Nakhon Nowhere for your girlfriend and her family? Yeah, try living out there in the rice fields for a few months.

My advice is to rent a place for a couple of years and see if this is really where you want to be. Phuket, that self professed jewell in the Andaman sea, is, in my opinion, rapidly developing into a slag heap. Try out Hua Hin on the weekend and see if you really want to put up with all the rich Bangkokians out on a weekend b

[YoungFarang13]

Apart from any financial consideration, owning your own home gives a nice comfortable feeling, you aren't at the landlords mercy, you please yourself, and it is yours, a base and a little piece of privacy that noone can interfere with.

That's human nature. People inherently NEED their own personal space. Some people can satisfy that need through leasing (and decorating to their own tastes, having a special corner/den/cubicle/etc.) but for many that isn't enough and they need to have papers that say it is really their own space (for this lifetime anyway). That's why this is often a touchy subject.

"..then I could tell myself that no matter what happens I will have that sofa."

(misqouted from fight club)

[johnnyk]

Try out Hua Hin on the weekend and see if you really want to put up with all the rich Bangkokians out on a weekend break.

Too right. Thailand is great but too many of those pesky annoying Thai people.

I live there but have never had to "put up" with rich Bangkokians. They stay in their condos and go out to dinner, much like the falangs who live in HH. Imagine that!

[12DrinkMore]

Re:

I live there but have never had to "put up" with rich Bangkokians. They stay in their condos and go out to dinner, much like the falangs who live in HH. Imagine that!

Sorry, I was refering to the massive amount of traffic in Hua Hin at weekends when they all go out for their meals. The place becomes a solid mass of vehicles, cruising around looking for somewhere to park less than 5 metres from the favourite restaurant. You wouldn't expect any self respecting Thai to walk further than that.